ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: kcoplan on April 04, 2013, 04:20:24 AM
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Is the glitch coming back from the dead?
For the second time in about three weeks, I just had my motor cutoff for no apparent reason. Both times, I was accelerating from stopped (or nearly stopped <2 mph). No fault lights on, just a "chunk" and no power. Lucky enough both times to push to the edge of the road. Rebooted and the bike ran fine. Both times, the cutoff occurred in cool, but not cold, weather (40s). Both times the cutoff occurred after about 7-8 miles of riding and moderate speeds.
I seem to remember someone else had a similar problem of the motor coming out when first starting, but couldnt find it with a search.
I had the "glitch" recall work performed back in October. Bike has about 1900 miles on it. Hope this is not the start of a trend. ???
--Karl
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My bike usually (but not always) takes two "start-ups" first thing in the morning. Last week, it stalled at a traffic light (the first time it has ever done this since the throttle assembly was replaced at 300 miles. I now have almost 5000 miles on the clock. I re-booted and rode off. Since then I have put on over 100 miles and this problem has not returned. (knock on wood)
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Similar to Richard, about 1 in 7 times, I have to "start up" twice. But unlike the 'glitch', there's never any hint of power the first time.
I had the glitch fix about 3200 miles / 8 months ago. Glitch free- except once, about 3 weeks ago, something glitch-like happened. :( I had just powered up, started to roll forward, went about 3 feet and "clunk", no fault lights, no power. Rebooting fixed it. Hasn't happened again but still makes me nervous!
Yikes, I hope the glitch doesn't come back!!!! What you're describing sure sounds like it. Wonder if it's possible whomever did your glitch recall work didn't get it done correctly? Keep us posted please!
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Thanks for adding your experience, ColoPaul. I have never had the problem with initial startup, but that makes three of us (at least) that have had similar problems with motor cut-outs while accelerating from a stop, post-glitch repair. What you describe sounds very much like what I experienced -- bike rolls a few feet then makes a "chunk" sound and motor cuts off.
I have never had much success with Zero's e-mail tech support, but if it happens one more time I will call them and see what they say.
--Karl
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I was hoping to stay in denial, but I have to offer more evidence that the glitch is back.
* Feb 1 - I got my recall service completed
* Feb 21 - Motor ran rough for ~10 seconds, then cut out while going 60-70 mph on the highway, 5 miles into trip. Temps in the 40s. Single reboot and it was good to go.
* Mar 17 - Exact same as Feb 21. Same route, same temp, motor cut out in the exact same place on the highway. Single reboot fixed it again.
* Apr 4 (this morning) - zero power first time I turned the bike on, rebooted and left the house fine. 2 miles later after waiting for a red light, I got the "rolls 3 feet then clunck" failure. Single reboot fixed it again. Felt some roughness at two points later in the ride but eased off the throttle and it smoothed out.
* I have also felt "roughness" in the motor on a few other occasions, usually when going faster (50-70), but easing off the throttle one to three times for an 1/8 of a mile seems to work.
Updates ...
* Apr 23 - felt a bit of roughness near the end of my commute going ~35mph and eased off which made it go away. After stopping at the parking lot gate, I applied a small amount of throttle and it cut off. A single reboot and I was good to go again.
* Apr 24 - One instance of motor cut off after a light turned green (fixed by single reboot), and one instance of rough running at 65mph which went away after I backed off the throttle for a half mile
* Apr 26 - Cut out after a couple of feet when a light turned green. I'm getting good at switching the key off and on without stopping.
* Apr 27 - Very rough for significant periods, had trouble getting it to smooth out.
* June 2 - Cut out after a couple of feet at green light. Slight rough running when getting up to highway speed
* June 4 - Cut out after a couple of feet at green light. Rebooted and cut out again. Cut out three more times on the way home, for a total of 5 on the day.
* June 5 - Ran extremely rough, lost most power in multiple stretches although never cut out while moving. Cut out once at a green light, and did the powered-reverse thing after start-up from a 20 minute stop. Almost constantly running rough or cutting out on the way home.
* June 6 - One cut out at 45mph, 2 cut out at green light starts, multiple spans of rough running.
I noted that a single reboot fixed it each time lately because before my recall service it would take 2-5 reboots before it would go again. My intuition is that temperature has nothing to do with it as all of these instances were in mild temps, and I rode all through the (sometimes quite cold) winter with no increase in problems. I do think there is a relationship with speed. My problems are either near or at highway speed or after a stop, but never when going 5 - 50mph.
Like I said, I was hoping to stay in denial that these problems were cropping up again. My dealer is 150 miles away and I don't own a truck, so it was a pretty big production to get it worked on, and when I did get it there it took them a week to upgrade the firmware.
What can we do to get this figured out (again)?
(2012 S ZF6, currently 3,500 4,000 miles)
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In my recent case, my bike stalled at a light but when I turned the throttle it did not roll at all, there was just no reaction, so it did not appear to be a return of the "glitch".
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Uh-oh. Guess I should have called this thread "THE GLITCH IS BACK." :o
I thought the "glitch" was a motor cutoff at speed (like SwitftSam describes), not when starting from a stopped position (like I have been experiencing), and Richard and Paul also report variants of. I never had the original "glitch" since the recall happened about two weeks after I bought my bike. Also, I thought that re-booting did not reliably resolve the glitch.
I also notice that my motor runs rough if I run WOT at highway speeds, but I just assumed that was the motor laboring with the acceleration I am asking of it.
I have this vague sense (can't really confirm it) that both starting cutouts occurred with WOT to get started from a stoplight (or stop and go traffic).
Anyway, I hope that we'll hear from anyone else with the problem . . . and I hope that if this is a recurring problem we can count on Zero coming up with another fix promptly.
--Karl
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My original glitch experience (last summer) always occurred when accelerating from a stop or low speeds.
Like Karl, I always get the 'rough' motor at WOT at >45mph. I have never had a glitch at speeds >20 mph.
I suspect we'll probably have to live with the 'reduced glitch' problem. Zero has very limited resources. If it's just a few of us having the issue, and it's not very repeatable, and they have no bikes at the factory that do it, we're SOL. Maybe Sam could rent a Uhaul and take his bike to Santa Clara for a month vacation? ;)
I think the 2013's have the same Sevcon controller as the 2012s? If so - maybe they'll get the 'reduced glitch' too and Zero might put some effort into it.
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I had my BMS board replaced recently (early March) from water intrusion. But Zero didn't have 2012 boards anymore so they retrofitted a 2013 BMS board to work with my '12 S ZF9. Worked great afterwards. But last Thursday and Friday, acceleration had become rather poor -- to the point that the car in front of me is four car lengths away before I get to 10mph. This happens in Eco mode. Sport mode is slow too, slower than Eco used to be. Is this the roughness you guys are talking about?
But the bike runs fine once I'm over 25mph. But it just takes so long to actually get there. Heck, a guy on a bicycle can out-accelerate me for the first 200ft. :(
+ m
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Is this the roughness you guys are talking about?
To me, the "roughness" means a slight vibration/rumbling from the otherwise perfectly smooth motor. No loss of power.
I think your problem is something else.
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Paul said:
To me, the "roughness" means a slight vibration/rumbling from the otherwise perfectly smooth motor. No loss of power.
Me too.
Mehve said:
Heck, a guy on a bicycle can out-accelerate me for the first 200ft. :(
I am a cyclist, too. Bicycles have great initial acceleration because they are so light!
Seriously, sometimes the Zero does seem logy off the line, and since I have become convinced that the cutouts have something to do with wide open throttle from a dead stop, I don't open it up from a dead stop anymore. The '12 Zero's are tuned so that there's not much difference in acceleration off the line from half throttle and full throttle anyway.
--Karl
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But the bike runs fine once I'm over 25mph. But it just takes so long to actually get there. Heck, a guy on a bicycle can out-accelerate me for the first 200ft. :(
I had a similar effect before my throttle poti was defect. the acceleration became weaker and than it died completely.
The glitch with WOT might also be a throttle problem! If the throttle makes a "loose contact" (the Poti will wear off ; sometimes at a radio you will have that too and a change in volume make a scratchy sound) the Sevcon will interpret it as a broken wire and switch off.
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Uh-oh. Guess I should have called this thread "THE GLITCH IS BACK." :o
I've been having similar problems recently. Hoping it was just me for several reasons:
1. I had hoped this perhaps unique to my bike, and not a systemic problem.
2. More importantly, I wanted to title the thread "Son of a Glitch!".
My symptoms:
* Slightly rough motor operation above ~50 mph. Motor is completely smooth below this point, regardless of requested acceleration. I recall the motor being completely smooth in all RPM ranges prior to the controller update.
* Post-update, every time the bike is powered on the motor is a bit hesitant for a few feet before it smooths out. I assume this is some type of calibration cycle.
* I've seen 3-4 cut-outs post-controller update (from 5000 miles @ 10/2012 through 8000 miles @ 3/2013). I recall these occuring during the warmer days of winter, 50+ F when most days were 25-45 F. Usually preceded by a period of rough motor operation.
* In the last month it's been warmer, 50-80 F and I've seen 1-2 cut-outs per week.
* In the last month on 2-3 occasions the motor has been very erratic and jerky upon power-up, rendering the bike inoperable. Power cycling the bike or occasionally riding the bike a dozen feet or so has "fixed" the erratic behavior.
* On one particular occasion, after powering up the motor would jerkily and slowly move backwards as the grip was twisted. This behavior persisted across perhaps 10 power cycles, but it disappeared after approximately 5 minutes of sitting on the bike with it powered off.
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I am keeping my fingers crossed that the "glitch" does not appear on my bike. Currently my 2012 "S"'s only irritation is to occasionally need a restart to get the throttle to move the bike. I can live with that, but the "glitch" occurring while moving is another matter. ???
Less than a year to go before the warranty runs out.
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Protomech's story is concerning! I wonder if you should bring the bike in for warranty service while you still can?
I experienced something like Paul's initial boot up problem on Tuesday morning - no throttle response, bike ran fine after rebooting once. I think I did not have the bike absolutely still during the initial boot up - I wonder if movement in the rotors can mess up the initial calibration.
-Karl
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What is really irritating about a problem like the "glitch" is that it does not happen all the time. And it will never happen when you take your bike into your dealer to have them investigate and fix the problem under warranty. ::) There is nothing like an intermittent failure to drive both the customer and the repair shop nuts. :(
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2. More importantly, I wanted to title the thread "Son of a Glitch!".
;D Awesome.
* Slightly rough motor operation above ~50 mph. Motor is completely smooth below this point, regardless of requested acceleration. I recall the motor being completely smooth in all RPM ranges prior to the controller update.
Yup, exactly.
* I've seen 3-4 cut-outs post-controller update (from 5000 miles @ 10/2012 through 8000 miles @ 3/2013). I recall these occuring during the warmer days of winter, 50+ F when most days were 25-45 F. Usually preceded by a period of rough motor operation.
* In the last month it's been warmer, 50-80 F and I've seen 1-2 cut-outs per week.
At what speeds, throttle position do your cutouts occur? I assume from the "rough motor" comment they were all at significant speeds as opposed to WOT from a stop. Do you think it's temperature related or just coincidentally getting worse?
* Post-update, every time the bike is powered on the motor is a bit hesitant for a few feet before it smooths out. I assume this is some type of calibration cycle.
* In the last month on 2-3 occasions the motor has been very erratic and jerky upon power-up, rendering the bike inoperable. Power cycling the bike or occasionally riding the bike a dozen feet or so has "fixed" the erratic behavior.
* On one particular occasion, after powering up the motor would jerkily and slowly move backwards as the grip was twisted. This behavior persisted across perhaps 10 power cycles, but it disappeared after approximately 5 minutes of sitting on the bike with it powered off.
:o Yikes. I've experienced none of this. Knock wood.
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yep, like everybody else: from a stopped position usually, opening the throttle, and no reaction from the bike...
The roughness, same thing. Only at WOT...
So can anybody offer a fix for that?
I am worried that one day, it'll happen when I am in front at the light, and it's a no go. It won't be fun!
The bike is almost 1year old with 3500miles on it, and the no start happened maybe 4-5 times total...
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In the case of the throttle problem where it will not move the bike from a stop, the issue was solved with a new throttle assembly.
Sorry I can help you with the WOT roughness. :(
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I've only got 250 miles on my '12 DS SF9 and so far so good. While we all, presumably, want Zero to succeed, and so far I love the bike, it's a significant enough investment that if Zero is unable to fix these glitches, I'd consider using state lemon laws. IMHO having to double start the bike, or "only" occasionally losing power is completely unacceptable. I'm a master of procrastination but with only a one year warranty, I'll address it quickly if it happens.
False starts at a light are going to get you rear ended sooner rather than later. Loss of power in a tight, fast corner is extremely dangerous. Loss of power on the freeway is, obviously, a recipe for serious trouble.
As I say, mine has been flawless so far and I'm very pleased with it. I accept all the exposure that comes with being an early adopter but with $10.5k and my life on the line, I expect exemplary response for mx issues.
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This is exactly what I am experiencing on my 2012 DS ZF9. I had both dead throttle and the power cutouts while moving. Reset cures it sometimes but only temporarily. The glitch has been happening with increasing frequency since about late February. I have 5700 miles on the bike now.
Last Friday it took me about 7 times to get the bike moving. Then I got the "thunk" and lost power in a tight curve and almost fell. Also, sometimes the throttle is completely dead and sometimes applying throttle while standing still will induce a slight *backwards* motion. Sunday, I lost power four times on the road and in fact, it has became so bad that I was wondering if I make it back home.
The bike is always fully charged and garaged, it was never in the rain. Heck, I didn't even wash it since new ;-)
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Even if your warranty period is up, you probably still have protection from your state lemon laws.
What's the back story regarding dealer response?
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Has anyone had any success with Zero or a dealership?
I have a 2012 S ZF6 with 2000 miles on it. I went through the first "glitch" repair (which was not at all a smooth process from both the dealership and zero) after almost being killed while turning left across traffic when I lost power. Luckily it was happening so frequently that the dealership was able to see it. It seems the "glitch" has returned to more than just mine. Everyone's description pretty much matches mine. After the repair I had a good few months of no issues at all. About 2 weeks ago I had my first return of the glitch. after a reboot, all was good. A few days later it happened again. Another reboot it was riding "rough" like others have reported. A few more days of this continuing to happen I completely stopped riding fearing it would happen during a turn again and this time I wouldn't be so lucky. Today I started it up to take it to the dealership and drop it off. After 10 reboots due to the bike "thudding" out a second after i twist the throttle I gave up. If anyone has any luck with Glitch v2.0 please let me know.
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Contacted Zero (again) today, got a contact with one of the East Coast support staff. Hopefully will expedite a resolution.
Zero does read the forums and the threads, though they won't / can't respond here in an official capacity. If you're experiencing Glitch 2.0 and haven't already contacted Zero then I would suggest calling them. (888)786-9376 EXT 86. Squeaky wheel, grease, etc.
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Replying here from another thread:
I have a 2012ds9 that i got in august. I had the glitch to start with some and traffic not bad where i live Arkanasa. Got recall but have not had it done 175 to dealer. It stopped with the glitches in October last year when it started cooling down and now it is warming up the glitch is back. I rode all winter no problem. I have an appointment set up now.
I think it was September before the fix was finalized. So definitely you have a non-updated bike.
The glitches I see now are definitely less frequent than the summer; I could count on getting one there every 20 miles or so, and it's perhaps every 50 miles now. Still feels very similar.
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I emailed Zero tech support and explained my problem. Someone contacted me the next day. He also arranged a pickup for my zero(still thuds out before moving 1 foot) with the dealership. He said from my description that he has an idea what the problem is. I had very bad customer service experiences with glitch 1.0, but customer service for glitch 2.0 is starting off a lot better.
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I was hoping to stay in denial, but I have to offer more evidence that the glitch is back.
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* Feb 21 - Motor ran rough for ~10 seconds, then cut out while going 60-70 mph on the highway, 5 miles into trip. Temps in the 40s. Single reboot and it was good to go.
...
(2012 S ZF6, currently 3,500 miles)
I had that identical scenario last week, for the first time post recall service. Same speed, same conditions. I was able to complete a reboot [in the center median] and return to the diamond lane without coming to a full stop...
(2012 DS ZF6, currently 5,700 miles)
Sigh.
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Happened to me again today -- this time at slow speed, slow throttle -- no clunk or chunk, just the bike stopped. Worst possible place -- on the Tappan Zee bridge with 18" shoulder. At least I was in the right lane. Able to boot up and go. Gonna have to stay close to the breakdown lanes for a while. Will have to call Zero later today.
--Karl
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I am starting to feel another government safety recall coming along. :(
Knock on wood, but no problems with my bike - yet. Other than the occasional dead-start first thing in the morning issue.
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For the record, I'm just experiencing sometimes dead starts (have to turn on-off the switch a couple of times to make it work, as the throttle does not respond)
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Maybe we should try and come up with a possible cause for this. I haven't had any problems at all.
Those that have the issue, what is the link between you all. Average temp in your location? Do you ride in all weather? How many miles average per day/week and average speed of your rides?
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Another couple of good variables to look for commons in would be:
- Total miles and how many when the glitch started?
- Date of Manufacture?
- ZF6 or ZF9 Batt Pack?
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Problems started at about 2,000 miles / 6 months. I have bike #336. Because I got the bike in September, most my riding has been in cool or cold weather, problems started in late March in cool weather. My bike is a ZF6.
And I can't get Zero to answer emails or phone calls.
-Karl
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3/2012 0 miles bought the bike
6/2012 3000 miles glitches start to show up, once every few days increasing to every day
7/2012 4700 miles I shipped the bike back to Zero
9/2012 5200 miles Zero returns the bike with new firmware (bike used to debug). Rode over the winter, 2 glitches on warmer afternoons.
3/2013 8000 miles Glitches return in earnest, every few days. Temps also start to pick back up.
9000+ miles now.
Bike #96, S ZF9.
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Just spoke to Brock at Zero Support. ("Zero Support," now that's an unfortunate name). He said I have to take the bike into the dealer (35 miles away) so they can "pull the logs" and send them to Zero in order to diagnose the problem He said it could be the encoder, the kill switch, or the motor and they would need to see the logs in order to figure it out. So that means at least two service trips to Brooklyn . . .
--Karl
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2012 DS same glitch as everyone else, really weird to just come out of nowhere. Was running great since the the big reboot reinstall of software in September. Total miles now 8785
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I am getting something probably related now but different manifestation. Noticed an odd noise during regen and a slight loss of power for a couple of weeks. Then yesterday morning i pulled away from home and it was like riding a 50cc moped, hardly any power, much less than ECO mode, under 100A i would say. Went to dealer and they are waiting for a diagnostic laptop. Diagnosis seems to be an encoder error in the motor.
Its even worse today, to the point that i have to give the bike a push to get off the line properly and need a good runup to make it over hills. Just hoping I will be able to get home tonight.
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mehve had a similar problem on page 1.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg12778#msg12778 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg12778#msg12778)
Don't know if it was fixed or what, but I bet she's happy to have it behind her with the 2013 bike. Might PM her and see, or maybe she'll check in here.
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It is now even worse. I had to push the bike on the way home out of an underpass because it wouldn't pull away up the hill. If i can get a good run up and hit the hill above 25mph its ok. It looks like I have now sold my ICE bike so this comes at a very bad time!
I hope someone gets hold of the dealer software soon so that we can do some DIY repairs if necessary.
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I have had a similar behavior when my throttle poti was defect.
Got your bike once a hit at the throttle?
I fear the throttle is a bit fragile.
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Yes the bike fell onto the throttle side but that was a long time ago. I will have a look at it tomorrow if i can, but don't want to do too much and risk voiding the warranty.
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It has a 3 pin jack mine is on the left side where the wires go under the tank.
If you have an ohmmeter you can try to check it.
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I measured about 350ohms between pins 1 and 3 when shut, and about 20 ohms at WOT. Does that sound right?
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I believe (but not 100% sure) it is a 5KOhm poti, so you should get ~5000 to ~ 0Ohm. I don't know what is pin 1, 2, 3 but you should see between two pins a stable 5KOhm and between the (other pins) 0 to 5K or 5K to 0 depending what pin you got. It could be that it will not go down completely to 0 but I never measured mine by my self.
If your values right I guess you need a new throttle.
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Today my Zero started running rough while going around 60 mph = really briefly -- for about 1-2 seconds -- seems similar to what Richard230 described way back as Glitch 1.0 -- the motor seemed to be fighting itself. Then the problem went away, and the bike ran fine for the rest of my ride into work -- did not reboot since I was not in a good place to stop and restart, and the problem went away.
Called the Zero tech to update him, and left a message, but I have not heard anything back from Zero or my dealer after they uploaded the logs last week.
So now I have rough running at high speeds, and motor cutouts at low speeds. Sure sounds like the Glitch is Back!
--Karl
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Spoke to the east coast tech guy yesterday . . . He explained that the engineers were still puzzling over the logs, and that at the times my motor cut out, the logs showed a surprising line indicating "charging complete," which shouldn't happen while the bike is unplugged. He said it could be some source of electrical noise randomly being interpreted as controller code lines- anything from a "salt bridge" between metal parts generating static to an external source. One customer apparently had this problem whenever passing an airport on his commute; turns out the airport had an EMF suppression system of some sort that was being picked up by the bike.
So I got to thinking about electrical noise sources o the bike . . . Not much there . . But I do have the Oxford heated grips on the bike, which uses a push button digital controller. Could the controller be making electrical noise? When it is switched off?
So I put an fm radio next to the heater controller and switched the bike and the heaters on . . . No noise when off, no noise when on full, but a regular switching, pulsing noise on the FM radio when the grip heaters were set to low, medium, or medium high.
Now, I can't swear whether I had the heater off, or on low, when my glitch arrived. But I tended to run it full blast in the winter, then stated running it on medium in March and April when my glitch started. I really don't remember if I had it on this Tuesday, when I had the rough running.
For now, I have taken out the fuse for the accessory circuit. I call Chris the tech guy tomorrow and ask him to run this past the engineers.
The Oxford heated grips are the same ones that Zero sells - when my wife called Zero before Christmas to order the Zero brand grips, they told that they were out of stock, but that Zero just buys the Oxford grips and puts their decal on them.
Hmmmmm . . . Guess I'll ride without the heaters for a while and see what happens. >:(
-Karl
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So I put an fm radio next to the heater controller and switched the bike and the heaters on . . . No noise when off, no noise when on full, but a regular switching, pulsing noise on the FM radio when the grip heaters were set to low, medium, or medium high.
Alot of switching power supply circuits operate around 100khz which is why you hear it on a radio, but its very low level so I would be very very surprised if it was enough to trip the charging circuit, especially as there won't be much amplification on that line.
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Alot of switching power supply circuits operate around 100mhz which is why you hear it on a radio, but its very low level so I would be very very surprised if it was enough to trip the charging circuit, especially as there won't be much amplification on that line.
As I think I understand it, it is not that the charging circuit actually trips, but that the controller board hears the static and thinks it is getting a message from the charging circuit. I don't know whether the 12v dc auxiliary power line is enough of a coupling to carry the noise from the heater controller to the bike controller, but I suppose it is a possibility.
Karl
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3/2013 8000 miles Glitches return in earnest, every few days. Temps also start to pick back up.
9000+ miles now.
Hey protomech, two questions:
Have you got anywhere with the glitch? Been awhile since an update. I seem to remember in the original glitch you boxed your bike up and sent it back. Any thoughts of that again?
Also, how's your tires? I'm guessing my rear will be close to end of life around 9000 (I'm at 6000 now).
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The East Coast tech told me that Zero was going to ship a replacement motor on May 2. I haven't received any update regarding the motor shipping. Once it arrives he's going to make a trip from Atlanta to Huntsville to replace the motor. I'm somewhat skeptical that the motor is the problem but I hope it does fix the issues .. will be very disappointed if the motor is a wear item.
Zero replaced my rear tire when they shipped the bike back. Part of a "mea culpa" for the 500 miles and six weeks spent debugging the glitch?
That was almost 5000 miles ago and the rear tire is getting rounded off again. I would guess I'll be replacing the rear at around 7000 miles.
As long as I can "push start" the bike when it acts up, then it's still workable as basic transport.
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Zero replaced my rear tire when they shipped the bike back. Part of a "mea culpa" for the 500 miles and six weeks spent debugging the glitch?
If they tested your bike on the dyno it will be a matter of safety to change the tire, it is really a tire stress. + a happy customer ;)
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If Zero has access to a dyno, it must be at an off-site shop. I sure didn't see a dyno during my tour of their factory last year. The last time my bike was at the factory for the glitch No. 1 repair insertion it was ridden about 200 miles before being returned to me. I think most of Zero's testing is done on an asphalt-covered road and not on a rolling-road.
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I've done probably 100 dyno runs on various bikes and have never seen any tire damage or unusual wear. If your dyno operator is messing up your tires, you need a new dyno operator as well as a new tire.
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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365510253544785&set=a.165563456872800.36746.164748896954256&type=1&relevant_count=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=365510253544785&set=a.165563456872800.36746.164748896954256&type=1&relevant_count=1)
I am sure Zero has a Dyno ;)
nicktulloh
Maybe you are right, but it is what professionals tell!
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If Zero has access to a dyno, it must be at an off-site shop. I sure didn't see a dyno during my tour of their factory last year. The last time my bike was at the factory for the glitch No. 1 repair insertion it was ridden about 200 miles before being returned to me. I think most of Zero's testing is done on an asphalt-covered road and not on a rolling-road.
They have an in house dyno. When I stopped by to check out the 2013 bikes and got a tour with Mike Corbin we saw a little red XU on the dyno.
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I confirm, Zero DOES have a dyno, it's a fact ;)
each produced bike are tested on it
Doc
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Well, gee. I missed that part of the tour and I thought I saw everything. ???
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nicktulloh
Maybe you are right, but it is what professionals tell!
[/quote]
Well, there's professionals and there's "professionals". The more I think about it, the more ridiculous it is. Replace your tire after a dyno? There is absolutely NO safety or wear reason to do so. It's just seriously bad information.
Speak to any motorcycle shop with a dyno and they'll confirm this.
If you know of a motorcycle shop with a dyno that really is stating that the tire needs to be replaced after a series of runs, please post their name here so we can avoid them.
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Maybe my technical know how is not up to date and I have things like this in mind ;D
http://www.gaskrank.tv/tv/motorrad-fun/wir-bauen-uns-einen-motorrad-p-9186.htm (http://www.gaskrank.tv/tv/motorrad-fun/wir-bauen-uns-einen-motorrad-p-9186.htm)
Or it is "German Angst" I do like this term so much, cause it has so much truth in it!
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Hi NoiseBoy,
what came out with your problem?
It's always nice to get the real solution after a lot of speculation.
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Has anything new happened for anyone on this front? I've been updating my post earlier in this thread with every "glitch" incident I've experienced in the last 4 months.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg12713#msg12713 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg12713#msg12713)
It has gotten really bad in the last 3 days and I'm thinking I won't be able to ignore / work around it much longer. My dealership is far away and I don't feel like Zero/my dealership has a solution anyway, so I don't know what to do next. I called Zero once a while ago, but they never returned the call. Any new info to help direct my plan of action?
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swift,
I'm following up with the tech today. Haven't heard anything since mid May, and that was just to say that a new motor was on its way. I'm not convinced the problem is the motor, but if they need to try that first then so be it.
I'm getting more frequent glitches now - they've increased in frequency from a couple of glitches every hundred miles in mid April to multiple glitches every ride now. I'm fortunate that I rarely deal with much traffic on my commute, but the glitches have moved beyond an annoyance to a safety issue IMO. I hate doing it, but there are some trips where I leave the bike at home because a glitch on the planned route and traffic could be dangerous to myself or other vehicles, ie no runoff or shoulder.
Here are my (non-mutually-exclusive) options as I see them:
1. Zero repairs the bike, either with a traveling tech or I ship it back to Zero.
2. I transport the bike to a nearby dealer (~200 miles away) and have them fix the bike. I don't have a high degree of confidence in a dealer diagnosis and repair.
3. I educate myself on how the controller operates, acquire tools to diagnose the problem, and correct it myself. Share information with the community so others can do the same.
4. File a safety complaint at safercar.gov, which may lead to a second glitch recall.
I may attempt to escalate the issue within Zero .. I have no insight as to whether they're working furiously behind the scenes to fix the problem, service personnel and/or dealers are hoping the owners just go away, or at the highest levels of the company Zero wishes the owners would just go away. Frustrating
I thought that perhaps the scope was more limited than last year.. and this may well be the case. I went back through this thread and collected all the incident reports and came up with more than I thought.
Motor cutout while in operation
kcoplan, 2012 S ZF6, roughness and cutouts (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg13664#msg13664)
protomech, 2012 S ZF9, frequent roughness and cutouts, motor oscillation (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg12974#msg12974)
swiftsam, 2012 S ZF6, frequent roughness and cutouts (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg12713#msg12713)
expevride, 2012 DS, one reported glitch (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg13437#msg13437)
RickSteeb, 2012 DS ZF6, one reported cutout (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg13260#msg13260)
Bdavis, 2012 S ZF6, multiple glitches (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg13213#msg13213), possibly returned to dealer (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg13245#msg13245)
rotoiti, 2012 DS ZF9, multiple glitches and cutouts, motor oscillation (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg13184#msg13184)
ColoPaul, 2012 S ZF6, high-speed roughness (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg12718#msg12718), occasional dead starts and one low-speed cutout (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg12705#msg12705)
Dead starts only, no reported cutouts
Larry295, 2012 S ZF6, multiple dead starts and roughness (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg13079#msg13079)
Richard230, 2012 S ZF9, occasional dead starts (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg13278#msg13278)
Lipo423, 2012 S ZF9, occasional dead starts (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg13280#msg13280)
Power reduction but not cutout
Noiseboy, 2012 S ZF9, significant loss of power (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg13497#msg13497), possibly throttle related?
mehve, 2012 S ZF9 (sold?), significant loss of power (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg12778#msg12778)
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Squeak squeak.
Got a call back from the tech today. He says there is some type of issue with the motor supplier - Motenergy - and it may be another month or two until they have motors. I'm glad Terry wasn't waiting a couple months for a new motor on his cross-country trip (http://green.autoblog.com/2013/05/31/terry-hershners-zero-s-gets-the-vetter-treatment-shoots-for-be/)!
There is a dealer that is relatively close (~100 miles away) that I'm going to get the bike down to for service. Zero's techs will be able to log in remotely and pull some information off the bike, and between the Zero techs and the dealer support guys they may be able to diagnose and correct the problem if it is not a motor issue.
Updates to follow.
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I called and left the Zero customer service number a message and they got right back to me. I've got an appt at my "local" dealer 150 miles away in Charlotte on Tuesday next week for a remote diagnostics session with the Zero tech guy in Atlanta. Hopefully I'll get it fixed up, learn something in the process, and report back on my success when I get home.
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BTW, Terry went through two motors that I know of. Both times he blew the motor bearings. I believe one time was around 16K miles when he was heading to my home to visit and the most recent time was on his trip back to Florida, with something like 29,000 miles on the clock. But his motors no doubt lead a much tougher life and were exposed to much higher loads than any of ours - especially mine. ;)
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The stock Motenergy ME0913 motor has a recommended 5000 RPM maximum.
http://www.motenergy.com/me0913.html (http://www.motenergy.com/me0913.html)
2012 Zero S rear tire is 130/70-17, approximately 24.2" tall or 76.0" around. 132 tooth rear sprocket and 28 tooth front sprocket is gearing of 4.71:1. At 70 mph our bike motors are theoretically spinning at 70 mph * 1 hour/60 mins * 5280 feet / 1 mile * 12 in / 1 foot * 4.71 gearing * 1 revolution/76.0" = 4581 RPM.
At 88 mph (vmax, stock) it's 5759 RPM.
At 100 mph .. with 25 tooth front sprocket from the DS as Terry has often used .. it's 7330 RPM. From Terry's photos he apparently rides around at 100 mph all the time, with one hand using his phone to take photos : )
Zero heavily modifies the motors for durability and cooling and likely for higher RPM operation. So I don't know if Terry's motor failures are typical (the most recent one he placed the blame on an improperly installed bolt when he modified the motor sprocket) .. but it's possible that the bearings need to be replaced or repacked every so often.
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Interesting numbers there protomech. I doubt Zero have modified it enough for a sustained 50% over rev!
I was told that they expect new bearings to be required after 100k miles which I find optimistic as the motor is exposed to alot of mud and water etc. even if it is sealed. There is a thread on endless sphere where a guy blew a stock ME0913 with 1000A and took it apart to learn about it. Those photos may reveal more information about the bearing.
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Terry was running the 25 to 132 for a while but for the last time (Vetter Run) it is 28 to 98 so the rotation is much lower now(but the Fan Speed too), but you are right all his load will be a lot more stress as we do. So I would claim the system really reliable.
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Was away for a week, so no riding since May 30. This morning I had a cutout while going down a hill on a back street, when I rebooted, the motor ran really rough, when I rebooted again, the bike ran backwards. Then I rebooted while rolling down the hill, and the bike ran fine for the rest of the trip in to work.
The Zero East Coast rep says I am authorized to bring the bike back to the dealer and have them ship it to CA while I am on vacation later this summer. I guess today's cutout proves its not the grip heaters after all.
--Karl
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And it also proves that Zero is still tying to figure out what is going on.
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when I rebooted again, the bike ran backwards.
Wow that is crazy! I have installed a momentary switch to run my bike backwards. But it is not easy to control a bike backwards.
Never want to experience a hectic reboot at a traffic light and then your bike surprise you by running backwards :o
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Switched on the bike today and the motor whirred continuously. Switched it off and back on, same thing a couple of times. Finally it did the "normal" (for me?) half second of whir then silence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siXBX7sCa9A
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/12/mutavaru.jpg)
Hit 10k miles on the bike today too. No glitches after the first startup continuous whir glitch.
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I took mine to the dealership in Charlotte yesterday and came home empty handed. I got it there right when they opened at 9am and had also scheduled a remote diagnostics session with the East Coast tech rep. At 5pm when I hadn't heard back, I knew it wasn't an easy fix. The dealership was useless in explaining the situation but the Zero rep was great in talking me through what they've looked at and what the ideas are. They have good data on the history of faults and in my case it's all about the encoder, sometimes experiencing faults once per second. One theory is that my bike has poor "frame isolation" which means the frame isn't sufficiently insulated from the battery so it's acting as a big antenna and introducing electrical noise to the controller. Another is something simple like a loose connection on the encoder causing it to jiggle on and off line. That seems less likely to me. He mentioned having it shipped back to the factory as a potential next step once the engineers review the logs in more depth.
I appreciate the difficulty of the engineering problem and it makes me feel much better to get the full story from the Zero rep, but meanwhile I'm without my only transportation and it sounds like it could be a while.
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BTW, Terry went through two motors that I know of. Both times he blew the motor bearings. I believe one time was around 16K miles when he was heading to my home to visit and the most recent time was on his trip back to Florida, with something like 29,000 miles on the clock. But his motors no doubt lead a much tougher life and were exposed to much higher loads than any of ours - especially mine. ;)
Hey Richard the first time was right at 20,000 after my NorCal tour, and it was a motor bearing. But in Florida, almost every mile was with a passenger, and with the size 6 controller for most of it, and way overweighted almost it's entire life, and the RPM limit turned up to 7500 (<--- don't do this! Bad Brandon Miller for talking me into it!), I'd say that's pretty good. I'm used to breaking Yamaha R1's and Kawi ZX-10's, the Zero is a lot more reliable than both of those were. Under normal riding, I'd say the motor would be good for 4-5 times that abuse, maybe more. Or somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 riding miles or more.
The recent problem was my fault. The sprocket bolt was a little loose. I tried to take it off and it turned a few times but the locktite got harder as the bolt came out, and one day with the tools I had couldn't get it out anymore, so I put it back in without getting it all the way tight. After 3000 miles the horizontal movement on the shaft, wore completely through the keyway. Either contact with the swingarm bolt or an off balance shaft due to a non centered sprocket caused the cooling fan clips to come off and to make contact with the motor housing in the back. The motor is fine, just needs a new fan.
At 100 mph .. with 25 tooth front sprocket from the DS as Terry has often used .. it's 7330 RPM. From Terry's photos he apparently rides around at 100 mph all the time, with one hand using his phone to take photos : )
Zero heavily modifies the motors for durability and cooling and likely for higher RPM operation. So I don't know if Terry's motor failures are typical (the most recent one he placed the blame on an improperly installed bolt when he modified the motor sprocket) .. but it's possible that the bearings need to be replaced or repacked every so often.
See above, no not typical. Stock motor is very reliable. Replacing the bearings at 50,000 miles might be good preventative maintenance, but you could just wait for them to start making noise too.
Terry was running the 25 to 132 for a while but for the last time (Vetter Run) it is 28 to 98 so the rotation is much lower now(but the Fan Speed too), but you are right all his load will be a lot more stress as we do. So I would claim the system really reliable.
Exactly.
Ok so I haven't had a glitch in almost a year, maybe 9 months. It was putting in the size 6 controller that fixed it once and for all for me.
My glitches started right away on the warmest days early, and a little later on cooler mornings.
It can be fixed by getting the dealer to make sure the firmware is upgraded, and also having them set the motor offset to be in the center of the vector graph, and calibrating the sine and cosine from the encoder, which once set the new firmware accounts for minor encoder drift.
Why is it worse when the controller gets hot? I don't know. But it is. Perhaps more "noise" on the signal, causing the chance of it being above 4 volts on crest or under 1 volt on trough and therefore out of range. When this happens, the controller faults and cuts out and needs to be reset.
So 1) see the local dealer and get the offset checked. I'm doing a trip up the east coast in a week From Florida to New York, then west to Washington State and have the tools with me to do this if anyone is along my route.
And 2) and what I would really recommend anyway, is to get the size 6 controller upgrade from Hollywood Electrics. From all the people that have had the upgrade, I don't think anyone has had a glitch since. The size 6 controller has a little more thermal capability. Plus you won't be upset with the additional power your new Zero has either!
Or 3) upgrade to a 2013. There are numerous reasons to do this. Blue tooth interface, better brakes, almost double the power and torque, higher voltage battery pack and faster charging, adjustable regen and more? The list goes on and on. I suggest this to whoever can qualify for the upgrade. Perhaps Harlan at Hollywood Electrics, can give you a special deal considering your situation. Anyone interested should call him and talk to him 1 on 1. Unfortunately I don't have his number off hand, but hopefully someone here can post it.
Oh did I say more range and more efficient on the highway? 90 miles vs 60 miles range at freeway speed? If I didn't have thousands of hours modifying my 2012 to be just how I want it, selling my 2012 for a 25-50% loss and upgrading to a new 2013 would be my choice.
Hope that helps!
Terry
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Swift Sam wrote
They have good data on the history of faults and in my case it's all about the encoder, sometimes experiencing faults once per second. One theory is that my bike has poor "frame isolation" which means the frame isn't sufficiently insulated from the battery so it's acting as a big antenna and introducing electrical noise to the controller. Another is something simple like a loose connection on the encoder causing it to jiggle on and off line. That seems less likely to me. He mentioned having it shipped back to the factory as a potential next step once the engineers review the logs in more depth.
That's exactly what they have been telling me, and it looks like I am shipping my bike west at the end of the month.
--Karl
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So what's the preferred method dealing with this glitch? I am actually closer to Zero than to the dealer I bought the bike from. But I guess they would want me to go to the dealer anyway. Should I call Zero? The dealer? My worry is that by the time I get to the dealer the glitch will stop manifesting itself (it seems to happen at the beginning of a ride usually).
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My experience was that if you keep calling Zero tech support you will eventually get through. They might tell you to go to the dealer to download the logs from your bike, but maybe you can talk them into letting you come to the factory.
--Karl
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My bike has been at the dealer for 4 days now, and it doesn't really sound like they've made any progress. They've got a bike with similar problems at the factory and the engineers are hoping to find a solution for that one that will fix my bike too. So basically, mine is just sitting in the corner waiting for an answer. No real forecast for when it might be resolved.
I'm feeling frustrated.
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Any updates from people having issues?
I noticed that my "glitch" happens when I walk the bike backwards (i.e. from a parking spot or garage) while the "ignition" is on. The bike then emits noises from the engine and starts having problems shortly thereafter.
For the last 2 weeks or so I have been careful to turn the bike off with the key if I had to back off somewhere and didn't have any recurrence of the "glitch". I have put about 400 miles on without a glitch. It might be a coincidence though, I am not sure.
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No problems here. In fact my starting in the morning double-boot problem seems to occur less and less often lately. ???
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Yesterday, I had three stalls in one mile, then the bike would not restart. Warning light flashing. Started to walk the bike home. Then I noticed the kill button (almost never used) was partially pushed in. Releasing the kill button fixed the problem. Now my kill button doesnt work at all, bike still runs even if I push the button in.
Bringing the bike to Carbon Negative on Thursday to ship back to Zero while I am on summer vacation. Hoping we will get all problems resolved . . .
--Karl
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I've dropped my bike off at my local dealer (~100 miles away). They say it'll take 2-3 weeks before they even get a chance to look at it. I'm pretty irritated. I fully charged the bike before I shipped it over so there should be no danger of "bricking" the battery .. but I'd just as soon not keep it at full charge for that length of time either.
I'll update when I hear back.
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My bike as been at the dealer for 2.5 weeks now. I've spoken with the Zero rep three times now since I dropped it off and it hasn't been very reassuring. The bike they have at the factory worked fine again after they replaced the encoder. They were considering just replacing mine, but I got the sense that they didn't think it would fix it permanently, just reset it to the beginning of its lifespan. It's been 8 days now since they gave me an update. It's too bad that I rode my bike all through the winter but now I'm missing most of June.
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Yesterday, I had three stalls in one mile, then the bike would not restart. Warning light flashing. Started to walk the bike home. Then I noticed the kill button (almost never used) was partially pushed in. Releasing the kill button fixed the problem. Now my kill button doesnt work at all, bike still runs even if I push the button in.
Bringing the bike to Carbon Negative on Thursday to ship back to Zero while I am on summer vacation. Hoping we will get all problems resolved . . .
--Karl
I've never used the kill switch. I understand the concept on an ICE bike but an electric? Just turn the "ignition" key.
Seems like that useless kill switch is causing more headaches than it's worth.
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My guess is that the kill switch is required by DOT regulations. I recall that both of my Electric Motorsport GPR-S bikes had one too and it also seemed to be useless - other than it was designed so that you needed to operate it in order to get the bike moving. ???
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Got a call from the regional Zero tech. The encoder on the motor is indeed glitching. They're looking at a motor replacement (still on lengthy back order), but also may be able to replace just the encoder.
Zero is also working on MBB and controller firmware updates that may fix the problem as well. I hope they can come up with a solution that kills the encoder glitching for good.
I understand the concept on an ICE bike but an electric? Just turn the "ignition" key.
Seems like that useless kill switch is causing more headaches than it's worth.
Suppose your throttle faults open somehow, or another glitch causes the motor to go full power.
You can brake and probably overcome the motor torque, probably .. until the pads heat up.
You can kill bike power, which also kills your indicator lights.
Having an off switch adds another component that can fault, but I think it still has a purpose.
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With 6600+ miles on my '12 DS, I've recently experience my first several "no response to throttle" glitches, each time after waiting several minutes at left-turn lights. Had to waddle the bike along the crosswalk while rebooting to avoid holding up traffic. First time was after exiting the highway after moderately high speed commute; latest was after a few blocks of surface streets. Sigh... :(
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So far I have had my 2012 zf6s "repaired" two times for the glitch. Both repairs taking close to a month each. This weekend the glitch came back yet again. I have less than 2500 miles and it just hit one year. I do not want to, but I may have to get a lawyer and try to return under The state's lemon law. I love the bike, but almost getting killed in an intersection due to this takes all of the fun out.
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I love the bike, but almost getting killed in an intersection due to this takes all of the fun out.
I have been lucky enough to be able to coast to the shoulder on each of my cutout events at speed, and able to get out of traffic by pushing at the two traffic light turns green no-response-to-throttle events. The "waiting for the glitch" is impinging on the joy, for sure... Sure hope there is a robust fix in the pipeline!
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I also had these famous glitch recently on my ZF9 ::)
A problem that i did not had on my brushed motor of the DS 2011 :-\
- With about 3 bar remaining, motor stopped while accelerating ( i had to cycle it to restart)
- Motor wnt restart after few miniutes of no use but with key ON ( had to cycle it to restart)
- While accelerating at about 40mph the motor vibrated more and i noticed power loss for few second then that dissapeard....
If the solution is to return the motor and/or controller to Zero and to not have my bike for couples of weeks remaining of the summer i am not sure i would do that now!
Where is the sumarry of problem vs cause? and wich problem is from teh battery bad waterproofing pcb and wich is from bad encoder exactly?
Can Recalibrating the motor encoder using the MBB solve the problem ? if so, then i can do that.
Doc
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I keep wondering how the fleet owners of the 2012 Zeros are dealing with the "glitch"? You would think that using the bikes every day in rainy, humid, Bogota, Columbia and in Hong Kong, doing police patrols, would bring the glitch to full bloom. If you are a LEO chasing after a perp on your Zero when it stalls out on you, you are going to want quick and permanent action in resolving that issue. You would think that Zero would be all over this problem and coming up with a permanent fix soon - if for no other reason than to protect their reputation so that future sales are not impacted, especially where government and fleet sales are concerned.
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Doc: if you have the ability to manually calibrate the motor encoder / controller, then I believe that will temporarily fix the glitch.
The BMS board waterproofing issue was a temperature sensor connector that was not properly protected. The connector in my case was starting to corrode, causing the sensor to effectively short and the BMS disabled the motor. The indicator light was lit indicating a temperature fault.
The glitch does not light the indicator. So pretty easy way to distinguish between the two.. the period of rough motor behavior is also symptomatic of the glitch.
Richard230: I don't think Zero is ignoring the glitch .. certainly they will burn MANY bridges with their fleet customers if they do not resolve this before issues crop up, and they HAVE to be aware of that. But they're certainly not engaging in significant communication with affected customers, or producing a timely fix.
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How to reboot?
I've got a 2012 ZF9. First glitch issue yesterday. At tech came out and replaced the board for the coating problem last year everything has been peachy since. Last night I rolled it out of the garage backwards with the key on. It went a few feet and then clunk, no more forward motion. Now it goes backward when rolling the throttle on and then it makes clunky ugly noises. Is there anything I can do? I'm 200+ miles from a dealer. What is rebooting? Just turning the key on and off or is there something else I can do? Multiple key on/off cycles are not helping. How about rolling forward while turning key on? A previous post mentioned that.
Thanks
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Jeff,
If you turn the bike on and it initially rolls backwards, leave it on and push the bike forward 5-10 feet (you'll feel some resistance). It should "pop" and resume normal operation, at least for a while. Note that you might have to do this again if you come to a full stop.
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Thanks, I'll try rolling it forward. I got a callback from the factory on my first call and they think it's the encoder. I have had good service from them. When I had the first issue last year, there wasn't a local dealer and the traveling tech came to our house and fixed it. Nice. Luckily for them, they just put on a new dealer in Dayton, Ohio about 50 miles away, so I'll take it there myself.
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Zero picked up my bike Monday evening; I am awaiting word...
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I posted elsewhere, but I have purchased a 'new' in 2013, 2011 xu to discover it is Glitch-zilla!!! I've owned it since May and have only been able to ride it (semi-dependably) 14 days. The rest of the time I've been trying to get it serviced. The last time I saw it was June 28th, 2013... The local dealer has been working with Zero throughout the late Spring and Summer to try to fix it. Was to pick it up and the service man sure it was fixed tested the bike only to have it cut out again...
We have about 30-50 days left of standard motorcycling weather in Michigan. This seems beyond crazy to pay a loan, interest, insurance, for use of a car when I thought I purchased a dependable product and all of the accessories to go with the Zero. Losing power in the middle of rush hour traffic is downright dangerous!
Reading about others experience tonight is making me rethink my whole experience with Zero.
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I posted elsewhere, but I have purchased a 'new' in 2013, 2011 xu to discover it is Glitch-zilla!!! I've owned it since May and have only been able to ride it (semi-dependably) 14 days. The rest of the time I've been trying to get it serviced. The last time I saw it was June 28th, 2013... The local dealer has been working with Zero throughout the late Spring and Summer to try to fix it. Was to pick it up and the service man sure it was fixed tested the bike only to have it cut out again...
We have about 30-50 days left of standard motorcycling weather in Michigan. This seems beyond crazy to pay a loan, interest, insurance, for use of a car when I thought I purchased a dependable product and all of the accessories to go with the Zero. Losing power in the middle of rush hour traffic is downright dangerous!
Reading about others experience tonight is making me rethink my whole experience with Zero.
Keep the faith-- early adopters and bleeding-edge technology have to expect these sorts of "growing pains"... Hope your issues [and mine] are resolved reasonably quickly. That's all we can expect!
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My motor was damaged in transit. The replacement motor (with new encoder) and MBB should be back at the dealer tomorrow - will expect a call to pick it up tomorrow or Saturday. Unfortunately, I'll be at IMS saturday!
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We have about 30-50 days left of standard motorcycling weather in Michigan. This seems beyond crazy to pay a loan, interest, insurance, for use of a car when I thought I purchased a dependable product and all of the accessories to go with the Zero. Losing power in the middle of rush hour traffic is downright dangerous!
Reading about others experience tonight is making me rethink my whole experience with Zero.
Ben: Last year my 2012 was in the shop for the entire month of August due to glitching. I had only had it 2 months when it went into the shop. I remember feeling very much like your post. I hope that Zero can figure your bike out and get you back on the road.
Protomech: Glad to see it looks like you'll be riding electric again soon. Your presence here & brammoforum and your dedication to e-moto's is a huge boon to both Zero and Brammo. I think they should both provide you with a free 2013 model. I'm a little surprised you didn't get better treatment from Zero with your encoder problem given your history and status. Also I'm curious how your rebuilt motor holds up --- last year, post-glitch-service, I got a new motor cause my old one failed. I wonder if that wasn't a lucky break (no pun intended) as I remember they changed something in the 2012 motor manufacturing process to improve motor encoder reliability. Maybe your rebuilt motor will also have those mods?
I have to say my Zero has been working flawlessly this summer. I'm racking up the miles and really enjoying it. I bought the Zero as a novelty, but now that I've ridden electric I have to say I'm hooked. I clearly prefer electric to gas for commuting around town.
When all is well, I find myself reading the forum alot but not posting so much. When you read some of the threads, I can see that a casual observer might think Zero's have significant quality issues. But I do wonder if the majority of Zero owners are more like me: happy and lurking.
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We have about 30-50 days left of standard motorcycling weather in Michigan. This seems beyond crazy to pay a loan, interest, insurance, for use of a car when I thought I purchased a dependable product and all of the accessories to go with the Zero. Losing power in the middle of rush hour traffic is downright dangerous!
Reading about others experience tonight is making me rethink my whole experience with Zero.
Ben: Last year my 2012 was in the shop for the entire month of August due to glitching. I had only had it 2 months when it went into the shop. I remember feeling very much like your post. I hope that Zero can figure your bike out and get you back on the road.
Protomech: Glad to see it looks like you'll be riding electric again soon. Your presence here & brammoforum and your dedication to e-moto's is a huge boon to both Zero and Brammo. I think they should both provide you with a free 2013 model. I'm a little surprised you didn't get better treatment from Zero with your encoder problem given your history and status. Also I'm curious how your rebuilt motor holds up --- last year, post-glitch-service, I got a new motor cause my old one failed. I wonder if that wasn't a lucky break (no pun intended) as I remember they changed something in the 2012 motor manufacturing process to improve motor encoder reliability. Maybe your rebuilt motor will also have those mods?
I have to say my Zero has been working flawlessly this summer. I'm racking up the miles and really enjoying it. I bought the Zero as a novelty, but now that I've ridden electric I have to say I'm hooked. I clearly prefer electric to gas for commuting around town.
When all is well, I find myself reading the forum alot but not posting so much. When you read some of the threads, I can see that a casual observer might think Zero's have significant quality issues. But I do wonder if the majority of Zero owners are more like me: happy and lurking.
I think you're right that 2012 S/DS glitch sufferers are over-represented among posters here for the simple reason that no one starts a thread or posts in a thread titled "No problems with my Zero."
Zero claims that less than 5% of 2012 bikes exhibit glitch symptoms. Maybe that's so but this seems unintuitive given that a significant proportion of active posters here sooner or later start to talk about glitch experiences, certainly more than one out of 20.
That includes yours truly who began to experience glitch symptoms for the first time this June after no issues the previous riding season.
After reporting the issues to my dealer who reported them to Zero the glitches went away for a about month until mid-July then returned.
I started a thread where I attempted to narrow the cause to condensation of water perhaps on circuit boards or inside the motor when the cooled-off bike is stored overnight in hot, moist air. I can still reliably produce glitches this way but abandoned it as a general theory of the glitch because several of you like in desert conditions and get glitches anyway. I still wonder if in the early AM there isn't a dew point in those deserts that produces condensation on the inside of the motor that interferes with the encoder, but who knows.
Rather than turn the bike over to the dealer for what may a long glitch fix process by process of elimination, as others here have experienced, I decided to figure out how to live with it for the rest of the season and turn it over when the riding season ends.
Here's what I've been doing all summer to continue to enjoy the bike.
When the air is dry (low relative humidity -- RH) and relatively cool I have no issues, such as yesterday. The day before I'd parked the bike outside under a cover versus in the garage. The RH got up to 100% after a brief sprinkle overnight. I knew I was in for glitches that morning and I got them.
The way I've learned to live with them is as follows. I will always get a rough running motor before a cut-out glitch. The rough motor come on at random, at any speed. If I try to ride through it by accelerating then decelerating to engage the regen, which I used to do, the rough motor goes away but there's a good chance that the next time I come to a stop the bike will not move off the line when I give it throttle and I'll have to reboot. I have never experienced a motor cut-out at speed. Now instead of riding through it if the motor runs rough I pull over when safe to do so and reboot. Then the bike usually, but not always, operates without issues for the rest of the ride, but not always for the rest of the day.
Hope the description is helpful. Also hoping that by this fall that Zero will have figured the root cause and the fix process will be short.
Due to these issues and reports of issues with 2013 bikes, I decided to skip 2013 S and will upgrade to a 2014; presumably the reported bugs in the new design will be ironed out by then and some of the oft-repeated improvement suggestions, such as to the tires and suspension, will have been implemented.
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No glitches on my very early 2012 S, but then I keep my bike garaged when I am not riding it. However, the humidity around here is usually 90% or more every morning, drying out during the afternoon, before the fog and mist moves in again overnight. Also I am very careful when washing my bike and do my best to keep anything but a light spray out of the battery box area. After drying with a towel, I go for a ride to make sure everything that I can't reach with a towel is completely dry.
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happy and lurking here, with only about 2000 miles on my 12DS-zf9, albeit with 35% RH. oh and i haven't washed it yet... :P
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I think they should both provide you with a free 2013 model. I'm a little surprised you didn't get better treatment from Zero with your encoder problem given your history and status.
ColoPaul: your check is in the mail. : )
I don't think Zero gives better service based upon post count, nor should they.
Also I'm curious how your rebuilt motor holds up --- last year, post-glitch-service, I got a new motor cause my old one failed. I wonder if that wasn't a lucky break (no pun intended) as I remember they changed something in the 2012 motor manufacturing process to improve motor encoder reliability. Maybe your rebuilt motor will also have those mods?
I'll certainly update here once I have the bike back. The Zero service tech contacted me Friday about the recall bolts - shipping directly to me, it sounds like an easy fix.
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Got back from my sailing trip . . . spoke to Brock at Zero . . . they have had the bike for 7 weeks now . . . I think he said they have "refurbished" and "weatherproofed" the motor, updated the controller, replaced the kill switch and throttle and should be ready to ship the bike this week . . . . still waiting for confirmation.
Miss my Zero!
--Karl
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Got back from my sailing trip . . . spoke to Brock at Zero . . . they have had the bike for 7 weeks now . . . I think he said they have "refurbished" and "weatherproofed" the motor, updated the controller, replaced the kill switch and throttle and should be ready to ship the bike this week . . . . still waiting for confirmation.
Miss my Zero!
--Karl
Same situation here, except I got the recalled brake-bolts fixed instead of new kill-switch/throttle... and it's been three weeks of car-commuting for me!
Miss my Zero! :'(
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. . . still waiting for confirmation.
--Karl
. . . *still* waiting for confirmation.
Miss my Zero! :'(
[/quote]
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Should be picking up my Zero tomorrow. Will also test ride a 2013 Zero .. be interested to see how it compares.
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Have fun testing the 2013 but be warned you will get a little virus, it tells you I will have this bike.
I just can fight this virus with logic that my 2012 give me all what I actually need :)
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Ah ha. They've actually sold their 2013 that was on the floor two months ago. My loss is another person's gain!
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Got my S back. Motor is perfect now! Put ~20 miles on it yesterday.
- new motor (original damaged in shipping :'(, was sent back to Zero to replace/repot the encoder)
- MBB firmware updated
- controller firmware updated
There's a little bit of a ticking noise - suspect it is belt related.
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I'm jealous. They finally put the bike in a box in Scott's Valley last Friday (after discovering that a bearing on e replacement motor was shot and finding another replacement motor). I was supposed to have the bike in hand by Friday . . . But the Estes tracking number indicates a September 3 "appointment" date. That will make ten weeks from dropping the bike off with the dealer and having it back. Will I hold the record, then?
Karl
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That will make ten weeks from dropping the bike off with the dealer and having it back. Will I hold the record, then?
Is the record strictly for 2012 S/DS glitch fixes? I've got 14 weeks for a 2012 XU BMS replacement ;D
Kidding aside, hope everyone gets their bikes back...
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That will make ten weeks from dropping the bike off with the dealer and having it back. Will I hold the record, then?
Is the record strictly for 2012 S/DS glitch fixes? I've got 14 weeks for a 2012 XU BMS replacement ;D
Kidding aside, hope everyone gets their bikes back...
Yay, got my '12 DS back yesterday, and it's been running flawlessly since. [4 weeks down time]
8)
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My FZ( is making these glitch many times furing each ride now... :(
Making each new ride more dangerous.... :o
IT IS 100% sure now: My bike HAVE TO BE FIXED and UPDATED...!
Unfortunatly i feel it is not all the dealers that have the right skill to understand these new electric technology.
I think i'll have to do the glitch repair by myself since i have played and built electric bikes for over 6 years now and that i have my own lab. I just dont have the zero interface.....
I called our North East service tech (Chris Langlois) about that and he agreed to help me tomorrow by phone to diagnose the problem using the Zero software interface tool and to send him the log file.
btw Does anyone could get pictures of the poting on the motor encoder and on the BMS and MBB ?
Doc
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I'm wondering if re-calibrating the motor to the controller should be considered part of the maintaince schedule for the ZF9, as it seems that over time the encoder will drift out of calibration.
This is the sort of thing I'd be happy to do myself, if I had the tools.
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The encoder drift applies to all S and DS models, not just ZF9.
Agree that we should have access to the tools to do this. It's not exactly a trivial operation, but I don't think it will be beyond us.
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I'm wondering if re-calibrating the motor to the controller should be considered part of the maintaince schedule for the ZF9, as it seems that over time the encoder will drift out of calibration.
This is the sort of thing I'd be happy to do myself, if I had the tools.
I did that few times using the Calsincos option on the MBB with my laptop.. but I still get the glitch trouble... The calsincos calibration option on the MBB set the max and min o fthe sinusoidal amplitude value of the encoder. We have to turn manually the wheel a little bit to have it to record the value.
Doc
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The Zero Tech I spoke with made it seem like the tools will only ever be available to the dealer, not the end-user. Which I guess is fine if warranty fixes/repairs are handled quickly, or if you dislike working on your own vehicles...
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The Zero Tech I spoke with made it seem like the tools will only ever be available to the dealer, not the end-user.
That's what they said about the Triumph dealer-only tools, now you can buy two aftermarket versions, one free except for the cable.
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Just got my ride back -- finally! :) Only four bars left on it, though Zero says it left Scott's Valley fully charged - so it looks like BMS and self discharge will run through eight bars in a week.
Had to have it delivered to my wife's office since Estes couldn't schedule a residential delivery til after the long weekend. So far, so good (charging it now), but the ride home in Eco mode seemed to have less regen than I remember.
-Karl
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The Zero Tech I spoke with made it seem like the tools will only ever be available to the dealer, not the end-user.
That's what they said about the Triumph dealer-only tools, now you can buy two aftermarket versions, one free except for the cable.
How long did it take for the Triumph aftermarket versions to appear? Just trying to gauge this...
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After I got my Controller upgraded with the lastest July 2013 version firmware my Zf9 motor seem to be ok for few days until the Damn Glitch cameback!! ::) >:(
Got progressively the DAMN glitch over the last few days!! >:(
It is less present, I would say 1/2 of what it was before but I get it in EVERY situations
- When starting at a dead stop or at a read light that goes green.. ( throttle is just like disabled until I cycle the key)
- While accelerating at high power when entering highway, motor just cut while accelerating!..
-When in cruise speed, sometime when there is strong wind on the highway, it's like the motor don't like it and begin to vibrate and loose power)
Next step will be to return the motor directly to Zero for repair or replacement. Unless they release a service bulletin for fixing the problem on the motor.
Doc
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Only four bars left on it, though Zero says it left Scott's Valley fully charged - so it looks like BMS and self discharge will run through eight bars in a week.
Wow, that's quite a bit of discharge. I've left my DS9 unplugged for 3 weeks before and still had all 11 bars (though I'm sure bar 11 wasn't a full one).
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After I got my Controller upgraded with the lastest July 2013 version firmware my Zf9 motor seem to be ok for few days until the Damn Glitch cameback!! ::) >:(
Got progressively the DAMN glitch over the last few days!! >:(
It is less present, I would say 1/2 of what it was before but I get it in EVERY situations
- When starting at a dead stop or at a read light that goes green.. ( throttle is just like disabled until I cycle the key)
- While accelerating at high power when entering highway, motor just cut while accelerating!..
-When in cruise speed, sometime when there is strong wind on the highway, it's like the motor don't like it and begin to vibrate and loose power)
Next step will be to return the motor directly to Zero for repair or replacement. Unless they release a service bulletin for fixing the problem on the motor.
Doc
Doc, I'd recommend pushing for a motor replacement. My own ZF9 has been glitching, and my UK Zero service technician informed me that in my case its very likely that the potting on the encoders is to blame. He's got a replacement motor on order as a result.
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Faulty encoder potting was the suspected cause for my glitches as well.
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Does anyone know what it is about the encoder potting that is faulty and why it would cause this problem, or even what an encoder actually does?
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Zap MC, as I understand it, the Endoder Potting is the sealant that is supposed to keep moisture out of the Encoder. Just a fancy name for silicone or polyester caulk of some sort.
I am probably not the best person to answer exactly what it is the Encoder does, but I think it has something to do with keeping track of the position of the armature in the motor so the controller knows what amperage to send to keep the motor spinning as desired . . . if the Encoder gets out of whack then (I think) the motor starts fighting itself and stops spinning . . . hence the glitch.
Hopefully with my "new" motor and encoder and potting, I will be over the glitch, but until I have ridden through another NY winter and spring I cant be sure.
--Karl
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so presumably the potting keeps the components on the board from vibrating and protects them against moisture and other corrosion so in essence we possibly have a moisture issue as some people have theorised.
I remember reading about the worker at Zero who made his own cycle frame and installed the Turnigy cells and motor which was 3 phase. The key to his project was syncing the phase pulses at given loads and speeds and they spent 100 hours on the dyno mapping this relationship. So I can imaging how critical the encoder is to establishing the precise position of the motor akin to the "timing" on an IC engine with its different advance curves.
Assuming you could take the motor to bits and retime it exactly then what is stopping someone from taking the encoder off and essentially "repotting" it?
The use of silicone with acetic acid present would not be good for the components so a proper potting material would have to be used.
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I have searched for a while for some encoder pictores of these Motonergy PMAC motor on the internet and today i have fround an encoder picture coming from a Vectrix motor and i think that it look like the same as on our Zero Motonergy motor.
Look like an easy fix for the sealing but if the encoder moved by a little offset due to vibration, it's another game since it require a recalibration with the CANbus software device
The motor cut view is our PMAC Brushless motor
Here they are:
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Here is more pics form someone on diyelectriccar forum, his bike is the Ripperton. The guy has modified his ME913 to take a 1000A 160V controller !!!
here is couples of pics:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ripperton-electric-track-bike-41173p30.html (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ripperton-electric-track-bike-41173p30.html)
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ripperton-electric-track-bike-41173p31.html (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ripperton-electric-track-bike-41173p31.html)
Doc
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Today with my dealer, I proceeded to the Sevcon motor controller update on one of the ZF6 from his client.
His client complained that his ZF6 was cutting out and even was going in reverse sometimes!! :o
After the update then i goes for a ride to test it and problem was still hapenning but i did not saw any reverse issue.
Conclusion is the ame as for my ZF9, at the very end of automn we will send his motor and my motor for a replacement.
Doc
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I never got it to run steady-state in reverse, but when my motor was glitching, perhaps 10% of the time it would initially start in reverse before oscillating the bike back and forth.
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When you mention reverse, how fast are you talking about? I had my 2012 XU on a stand with the rear wheel in the air,
and, when I turned on the key, the wheel would go in reverse. I didn't think anything about it. Is this not supposed to
happen? I do not notice any pull in either direction when sitting on the bike.
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Zero has issued a new recall for 2012 and 2013 bikes to properly handle Sevcon controller faults.
On Sep 17 2012 Zero first notified the NHTSA of a controller glitch caused by motor encoder drift (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchResults?searchType=ID&targetCategory=R&searchCriteria.nhtsa_ids=12V455000&refurl=email). This is the original glitch.
For better readability, everything between '****' is a quote from Zero's defect report.
****
DESCRIPTION OF DEFECT:
The subject motorcycles have a motor encoder position signal that may drift over the extended use of the motorcycle. Should the encoder signal drift too far, it could fall beyond the signal limits expected by the motor controller. This condition could cause the motor controller to shut off, resulting in the inadvertent loss of power of the motorcycle, which could lead to a possible crash and potential injury or death of the rider.
CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS:
On 02/10/2012, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 2012 Model Year (12MY) OS model motorcycle (538SD3M3XCC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. Zero Motorcycles Engineering was made aware of this issue and began an investigation in collaboration with Zero Motorcycles Customer Service department. At the time, the incident was attributed to a defective motor.
On 05/04/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY S model motorcycle (538SM3M34CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. At the time, this incident was attributed to the condition that led to Zero Motorcycles' BMS weatherproofing recall (12V-310).
On 06/12/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY S model motorcycle (538SM3M32CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. With this incident, the investigation team became suspicious of properly understanding root cause. This specific case was investigated further and eventually traced to poor motor / controller timing. A re-timing procedure was put in place that appeared to resolve this occurrence.
On 07/06/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY S model motorcycle (538SM3M36CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. This incident was also traced to poor motor / controller timing, and the re-timing procedure was applied to this bike.
On 07/18/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY DS model motorcycle (538SD3M31CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. This incident was also traced to poor motor / controller timing, and the re-timing procedure was applied to this bike. However, although this repair appeared effective, Zero Motorcycles was later advised that the condition had recurred.
On 08/09/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY S model motorcycle (538SM3M30CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. This incident was also traced to poor motor / controller timing, and the re-timing procedure was applied to this bike. However, although this repair appeared effective, Zero Motorcycles was later advised that the condition had recurred.
On 08/13/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY S model motorcycle (538SM3M32CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. This incident was also traced to poor motor / controller timing, and the re-timing procedure was applied to this bike.
On 09/04/12, Zero Motorcycles received reports of a 12MY S and DS model motorcycles (538SM3M35CC  and 538SD3M3XCC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. Zero Motorcycles Customer Service advised both dealers of the ongoing investigation regarding the motor / controller timing condition and that a more definitive solution was being explored.
On 09/05/12, this concern was brought to the attention of Zero Motorcycles' Product Integrity Team. This group spent the next week analyzing all of the data and ensuring a good understanding of the concern and its possible effects.
On 09/05/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY DS model motorcycle (538SD3M36CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. Zero Motorcycles Customer Service advised the dealer of the ongoing investigation regarding the motor / controller timing condition and that a more definitive solution was being explored.
On 09/06/12, Zero Motorcycles received reports of a 12MY S and DS model motorcycles (538SM3M31CC  and 538SD3M33CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. Zero Motorcycles Customer Service advised both dealers of the ongoing investigation regarding the motor / controller timing condition and that a more definitive solution was being explored.
On 09/12/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY S model motorcycle (538SM3M34CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. Zero Motorcycles Customer Service advised the dealer of the ongoing investigation regarding the motor / controller timing condition and that a more definitive solution was being explored.
On 09/12/2012, Zero Motorcycles completed its internal investigation of this issue and concluded that the encoder signal used on 12MY S and DS motorcycles built on or prior to July 23, 2012 could drift beyond the signal limits expected by the motor controller, which could lead to a quits-while-running situation. Zero Motorcycles executive management considered this information and determined that a defect related to motor vehicle safety existed.
Zero Motorcycles is not aware of any accidents or injuries caused by this condition.
DESCRIPTION OF THE PROGRAM TO REMEDY THE DEFECT:
The remedy of this defect is for authorized Zero Motorcycles dealers to reprogram the motorcycle's motor controller with a new firmware and configuration, which compensate for the possible drift of the motor encoder position signal to ensure it remains within the limits expected by the controller.
****
On Dec 18 2013 Zero notified the NHTSA of another recall to properly handle continuing glitches (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchResults?searchType=ID&targetCategory=R&searchCriteria.nhtsa_ids=13V635000&refurl=email).
Again, for better readability, everything between '****' is a quote from Zero's defect report.
****
DESCRIPTION OF DEFECT:
The subject motorcycles have a controller firmware that may react to infrequently encountered signal faults by discontinuing controller power to the motor. Should one of these faults occur while the motorcycle is being ridden, the controller's response may result in an inadvertent quits-while-running condition, which could lead to a crash.
CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS:
On 09/12/2012, Zero Motorcycles concluded that certain 2012 model year motorcycles had a motor encoder position signal that could drift over the extended use of the motorcycle. Should the encoder signal drift too far, it could fall beyond the signal limits expected by the motor controller. This condition could cause the motor controller firmware to respond to such a signal fault by discontinuing power to the motor, resulting in the inadvertent loss of power of the motorcycle, which could lead to a possible crash. In response to the conclusion of its investigation, Zero Motorcycles determined that a defect related to motor vehicle safety existed and declared a voluntary recall program (12V-455). The remedy in this program involved a new controller firmware and configuration, which compensates for the possible drift of the motor encoder position signal to ensure it remains within the limits expected by the controller.
Over the next several months, Zero Motorcycles received reports of 2012 and 2013 model year motorcycles that exhibited similar quits-while-running behavior. Since the analysis of each of these reports revealed a variety of unrelated faults as the root cause of the inadvertent power interruption, on 09/20/2013 Zero Motorcycles personnel traveled to Sevcon's headquarters in the United Kingdom to better understand the reason behind such behavior (Sevcon Limited is the manufacturer of the subject controller and developer of its firmware). During the ensuing investigation after this meeting, it became clear to Zero Motorcycles and Sevcon that these random, infrequent and unrelated signal faults could not be avoided in the lifetime of the motorcycle, and that the controller firmware needed to deal with these faults in a different, more reasonable manner.
On 12/05/2013, Zero Motorcycles completed its internal investigation of this concern and concluded that 2012 and 2013 model motorcycles built with a Sevcon controller prior to 11/08/2013 have firmware that could respond to infrequent signal faults by discontinuing controller power to the motor, which could lead to a quits-while-running situation. Zero Motorcycles executive management considered this information and determined that a defect related to motor vehicle safety existed.
Zero Motorcycles is not aware of any accidents or injuries caused by this condition.
DESCRIPTION OF THE PROGRAM TO REMEDY THE DEFECT:
The remedy of this defect is for Zero Motorcycles dealers to update the suspect vehicles with revised controller firmware that deals with these infrequent faults in a way that does not result in an inadvertent quits-while-running condition.
****
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Thanks Protomech. Interesting reading. It appears that Zero has very much been keeping up with owners problems and have been performing detailed analyses of the issues. I can understand why it has taken so long to develop a resolution when dealing with electronic glitches. It is not like resolving more obvious mechanical, design, or structural defects, which are the type of things that IC manufacturers have to deal with.
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So . . . is another recall coming to update the firmware? I havent received anything, even though mine was one of the bikes sent back to the factory last summer because of cutouts . . . they replaced the motor and the encoder (with better potting) . . . but any Fall '13 firmware updates have not been loaded onto my bike. Anyone get a recall notice yet?
--Karl
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Thanks Again Protomech for exposing Zerogate!
The time it took them to get a handle on this problem is far too long.
They knew about this issue in August 2012!!!
BY the end of 2013 they knew that their "fix" was not working but here we are in 2014 and they just announce another recall
And from the looks of their log they didn't have a clue what to do about it to properly resolve the issue for far too long.
They had to fly to England to try and sort it out with Sevcon!!
Quote from NHTSA:
The information in your report suggests that Zero Motorcycles may have been aware of this issue more than five business days before
filing a report with NHTSA. Please be reminded that under Federal law, this agency is to be notified of all safety defect and/or
noncompliance decisions within five business days. 49 CFR 573.6 Significant civil penalties can be assessed for this violation.
"more than 5 days?! more like 2 years!
NTHSA should have prosecuted, as Zero were fortunate that no one was injured as a result of this fault.
I am so glad I didn't buy that ZF9 !!
How can anyone that knows this buy a Zero bike now in the knowledge that Zero act in this manner when something is wrong with their product?
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Thanks Again Protomech for exposing Zerogate!
Hyperbole, much?
August 2012!!!
...
"more than 5 days?! more like 2 years!
Also the quote you cited from the NHTSA was dated Sep 20th 2012, so its not 2 years like you claim, and more like 2 months.
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They knew about the problem in August 2012 and it still isn't fixed now.
Do you think that is acceptable, particularly bearing in mind the safety implications?
Its approximately 1 1/2 YEARS! and the problem is still not fixed!
Certainly when reported it was over the 5 days allowed in any case
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Safety implications are not that severe. I had the glitch, it glitched out on a busy roundabout and during sharp cornering, and it was safe enough.
Then they fixed it about 2-3 months ago, and its been fine since.
So yeah, given Suzuki took far longer to fix a worse cut out at speed problem on the Bandits, its not that unusual either (I was told thats what they do, live with it, so I did, and carried a can of WD40 around to fix it)
Bikes cut out at speed, been riding for over 20 years and half my bikes could lose power at some point in their life. Zero is the first company I've encountered thats ever bothered to even fix it.
So I'm pretty stoked at how good Zero are. :p
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Update on my cut-out problem. I dropped my 2012 DS ZF9 at the dealer just before Thanksgiving. They apparently shipped the bike to Zero and it came back yesterday. I also got a recall notice via certified mail (recall number: 13V-635, dated 1/15/14) for the cutout problem. Going to pick up my bike tomorrow and see how it performs.
Edited to add: it performed ok, no cutouts, but I decided to trade it in for a 2014 SR. OUCH, my wallet.