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Author Topic: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out  (Read 15110 times)

kcoplan

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #120 on: August 31, 2013, 02:53:55 AM »

Just got my ride back -- finally!   :) Only four bars left on it, though Zero says it left Scott's Valley fully charged - so it looks like BMS and self discharge will run through eight bars in a week.

Had to have it delivered to my wife's office since Estes couldn't schedule a residential delivery til after the long weekend.  So far, so good (charging it now), but the ride home in Eco mode seemed to have less regen than I remember.

-Karl
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craigq

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #121 on: August 31, 2013, 06:41:25 AM »

The Zero Tech I spoke with made it seem like the tools will only ever be available to the dealer, not the end-user.

That's what they said about the Triumph dealer-only tools, now you can buy two aftermarket versions, one free except for the cable.

How long did it take for the Triumph aftermarket versions to appear? Just trying to gauge this...
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Doctorbass

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #122 on: September 06, 2013, 08:06:14 PM »

After I got my Controller upgraded with the lastest July 2013 version firmware my Zf9 motor seem to be ok for few days until the Damn Glitch cameback!! ::) >:(

Got progressively the DAMN glitch over the last few days!! >:(

It is less present, I would say 1/2 of what it was before but I get it in EVERY  situations

- When starting at a dead stop or at a read light that goes green.. ( throttle is just like disabled until I cycle the key)
- While accelerating at high power when entering highway, motor just cut while accelerating!..
-When in cruise speed, sometime when there is strong wind on the highway, it's like the motor don't like it and begin to vibrate and loose power)


Next step will be to return the motor directly to Zero for repair or replacement. Unless they release a service bulletin for fixing the problem on the motor.

Doc
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CliC

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Re: Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #123 on: September 08, 2013, 03:09:33 AM »

Only four bars left on it, though Zero says it left Scott's Valley fully charged - so it looks like BMS and self discharge will run through eight bars in a week.

Wow, that's quite a bit of discharge. I've left my DS9 unplugged for 3 weeks before and still had all 11 bars (though I'm sure bar 11 wasn't a full one).
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Bikes: 2012 Zero DS ZF9, 2000 Harley Road King (sold), 1985 Suzuki GN400 (sold)
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Justin Andrews

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #124 on: September 08, 2013, 05:22:21 PM »

After I got my Controller upgraded with the lastest July 2013 version firmware my Zf9 motor seem to be ok for few days until the Damn Glitch cameback!! ::) >:(

Got progressively the DAMN glitch over the last few days!! >:(

It is less present, I would say 1/2 of what it was before but I get it in EVERY  situations

- When starting at a dead stop or at a read light that goes green.. ( throttle is just like disabled until I cycle the key)
- While accelerating at high power when entering highway, motor just cut while accelerating!..
-When in cruise speed, sometime when there is strong wind on the highway, it's like the motor don't like it and begin to vibrate and loose power)


Next step will be to return the motor directly to Zero for repair or replacement. Unless they release a service bulletin for fixing the problem on the motor.

Doc

Doc, I'd recommend pushing for a motor replacement. My own ZF9 has been glitching, and my UK Zero service technician informed me that in my case its very likely that the potting on the encoders is to blame. He's got a replacement motor on order as a result.

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protomech

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #125 on: September 08, 2013, 09:41:54 PM »

Faulty encoder potting was the suspected cause for my glitches as well.
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zap mc

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #126 on: September 16, 2013, 12:40:00 PM »

Does anyone know what it is about the encoder potting that is faulty and why it would cause this problem, or even what an encoder actually does?
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kcoplan

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2013, 07:53:09 PM »

Zap MC, as I understand it, the Endoder Potting is the sealant that is supposed to keep moisture out of the Encoder.  Just a fancy name for silicone or polyester caulk of some sort. 

I am probably not the best person to answer exactly what it is the Encoder does, but I think it has something to do with keeping track of the position of the armature in the motor so the controller knows what amperage to send to keep the motor spinning as desired  . . .  if the Encoder gets out of whack then (I think) the motor starts fighting itself and stops spinning . . . hence the glitch.

Hopefully with my "new" motor and encoder and potting, I will be over the glitch, but until I have ridden through another NY winter and spring I cant be sure.

--Karl
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zap mc

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #128 on: September 17, 2013, 01:56:25 AM »

so presumably the potting keeps the components on the board from vibrating and protects them against moisture and other corrosion so in essence we possibly have a moisture issue as some people have theorised.
I remember reading about the worker at Zero who made his own cycle frame and installed the Turnigy cells and motor which was 3 phase. The key to his project was syncing the phase pulses at given loads and speeds and they spent 100 hours on the dyno mapping this relationship. So I can imaging how critical the encoder is to establishing the precise position of the motor akin to the "timing" on an IC engine with its different advance curves.
Assuming you could take the motor to bits and retime it exactly then what is stopping someone from taking the encoder off and essentially "repotting" it?
The use of silicone with acetic acid present would not be good for the components so a proper potting material would have to be used.
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Doctorbass

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #129 on: September 17, 2013, 08:23:28 AM »

I have searched for a while for some encoder pictores of these Motonergy PMAC motor on the internet and today i have fround an encoder picture coming from a Vectrix motor and i think that it look like the same as on our Zero Motonergy motor.

Look like an easy fix for the sealing but if the encoder moved by a little offset due to vibration, it's another game since it require a recalibration with the CANbus software device

The motor cut view is our PMAC Brushless motor

Here they are:

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Doctorbass

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #130 on: September 17, 2013, 08:45:02 AM »

Here is more pics form someone on diyelectriccar forum, his bike is the Ripperton. The guy has modified his ME913 to take a 1000A 160V controller !!!

here is couples of pics:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ripperton-electric-track-bike-41173p30.html

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/ripperton-electric-track-bike-41173p31.html

Doc
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Doctorbass

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #131 on: September 20, 2013, 11:14:01 AM »

Today with my dealer, I proceeded to  the Sevcon motor controller update on one of the ZF6 from his client.

His client complained that his ZF6 was cutting out and even was going in reverse sometimes!! :o

After the update then i goes for a ride to test it and problem was still hapenning but i did not saw any reverse issue.

Conclusion is the ame as for my ZF9, at the very end of automn we will send his motor and my motor for a replacement.

Doc
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protomech

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #132 on: September 20, 2013, 07:30:12 PM »

I never got it to run steady-state in reverse, but when my motor was glitching, perhaps 10% of the time it would initially start in reverse before oscillating the bike back and forth.
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KrazyEd

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #133 on: September 20, 2013, 08:18:59 PM »

When you mention reverse, how fast are you talking about? I had my 2012 XU on a stand with the rear wheel in the air,
and, when I turned on the key, the wheel would go in reverse. I didn't think anything about it. Is this not supposed to
happen? I do not notice any pull in either direction when sitting on the bike.
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protomech

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Re: 2012 S zf6 Motor cutting out
« Reply #134 on: January 10, 2014, 08:54:04 PM »

Zero has issued a new recall for 2012 and 2013 bikes to properly handle Sevcon controller faults.

On Sep 17 2012 Zero first notified the NHTSA of a controller glitch caused by motor encoder drift. This is the original glitch.

For better readability, everything between '****' is a quote from Zero's defect report.

****
DESCRIPTION OF DEFECT:
The subject motorcycles have a motor encoder position signal that may drift over the extended use of the motorcycle. Should the encoder signal drift too far, it could fall beyond the signal limits expected by the motor controller. This condition could cause the motor controller to shut off, resulting in the inadvertent loss of power of the motorcycle, which could lead to a possible crash and potential injury or death of the rider.

CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS:
On 02/10/2012, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 2012 Model Year (12MY) OS model motorcycle (538SD3M3XCC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. Zero Motorcycles Engineering was made aware of this issue and began an investigation in collaboration with Zero Motorcycles Customer Service department. At the time, the incident was attributed to a defective motor.

On 05/04/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY S model motorcycle (538SM3M34CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. At the time, this incident was attributed to the condition that led to Zero Motorcycles' BMS weatherproofing recall (12V-310).

On 06/12/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY S model motorcycle (538SM3M32CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. With this incident, the investigation team became suspicious of properly understanding root cause. This specific case was investigated further and eventually traced to poor motor / controller timing. A re-timing procedure was put in place that appeared to resolve this occurrence.

On 07/06/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY S model motorcycle (538SM3M36CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. This incident was also traced to poor motor / controller timing, and the re-timing procedure was applied to this bike.

On 07/18/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY DS model motorcycle (538SD3M31CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. This incident was also traced to poor motor / controller timing, and the re-timing procedure was applied to this bike. However, although this repair appeared effective, Zero Motorcycles was later advised that the condition had recurred.

On 08/09/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY S model motorcycle (538SM3M30CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. This incident was also traced to poor motor / controller timing, and the re-timing procedure was applied to this bike. However, although this repair appeared effective, Zero Motorcycles was later advised that the condition had recurred.

On 08/13/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY S model motorcycle (538SM3M32CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. This incident was also traced to poor motor / controller timing, and the re-timing procedure was applied to this bike.

On 09/04/12, Zero Motorcycles received reports of a 12MY S and DS model motorcycles (538SM3M35CC  and 538SD3M3XCC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. Zero Motorcycles Customer Service advised both dealers of the ongoing investigation regarding the motor / controller timing condition and that a more definitive solution was being explored.

On 09/05/12, this concern was brought to the attention of Zero Motorcycles' Product Integrity Team. This group spent the next week analyzing all of the data and ensuring a good understanding of the concern and its possible effects.

On 09/05/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY DS model motorcycle (538SD3M36CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. Zero Motorcycles Customer Service advised the dealer of the ongoing investigation regarding the motor / controller timing condition and that a more definitive solution was being explored.

On 09/06/12, Zero Motorcycles received reports of a 12MY S and DS model motorcycles (538SM3M31CC  and 538SD3M33CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. Zero Motorcycles Customer Service advised both dealers of the ongoing investigation regarding the motor / controller timing condition and that a more definitive solution was being explored.

On 09/12/12, Zero Motorcycles received a report of a 12MY S model motorcycle (538SM3M34CC  ) that stopped running inadvertently. Zero Motorcycles Customer Service advised the dealer of the ongoing investigation regarding the motor / controller timing condition and that a more definitive solution was being explored.

On 09/12/2012, Zero Motorcycles completed its internal investigation of this issue and concluded that the encoder signal used on 12MY S and DS motorcycles built on or prior to July 23, 2012 could drift beyond the signal limits expected by the motor controller, which could lead to a quits-while-running situation. Zero Motorcycles executive management considered this information and determined that a defect related to motor vehicle safety existed.

Zero Motorcycles is not aware of any accidents or injuries caused by this condition.

DESCRIPTION OF THE PROGRAM TO REMEDY THE DEFECT:
The remedy of this defect is for authorized Zero Motorcycles dealers to reprogram the motorcycle's motor controller with a new firmware and configuration, which compensate for the possible drift of the motor encoder position signal to ensure it remains within the limits expected by the controller.
****


On Dec 18 2013 Zero notified the NHTSA of another recall to properly handle continuing glitches.

Again, for better readability, everything between '****' is a quote from Zero's defect report.

****
DESCRIPTION OF DEFECT:
The subject motorcycles have a controller firmware that may react to infrequently encountered signal faults by discontinuing controller power to the motor. Should one of these faults occur while the motorcycle is being ridden, the controller's response may result in an inadvertent quits-while-running condition, which could lead to a crash.

CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS:
On 09/12/2012, Zero Motorcycles concluded that certain 2012 model year motorcycles had a motor encoder position signal that could drift over the extended use of the motorcycle. Should the encoder signal drift too far, it could fall beyond the signal limits expected by the motor controller. This condition could cause the motor controller firmware to respond to such a signal fault by discontinuing power to the motor, resulting in the inadvertent loss of power of the motorcycle, which could lead to a possible crash. In response to the conclusion of its investigation, Zero Motorcycles determined that a defect related to motor vehicle safety existed and declared a voluntary recall program (12V-455). The remedy in this program involved  a new controller firmware and configuration, which compensates for the possible drift of the motor encoder position signal to ensure it remains within the limits expected by the controller.

Over the next several months, Zero Motorcycles received reports of 2012 and 2013 model year motorcycles that exhibited similar quits-while-running behavior. Since the analysis of each of these reports revealed a variety of unrelated faults as the root cause of the inadvertent power interruption, on 09/20/2013 Zero Motorcycles personnel traveled to Sevcon's headquarters in the United Kingdom to better understand the reason behind such behavior (Sevcon Limited is the manufacturer of the subject controller and developer of its firmware). During the ensuing investigation after this meeting, it became clear to Zero Motorcycles and Sevcon that these random, infrequent and unrelated signal faults could not be avoided in the lifetime of the motorcycle, and that the controller firmware needed to deal with these faults in a different, more reasonable manner.

On 12/05/2013, Zero Motorcycles completed its internal investigation of this concern and concluded that 2012 and 2013 model motorcycles built with a Sevcon controller prior to 11/08/2013 have firmware that could respond to infrequent signal faults by discontinuing controller power to the motor, which could lead to a quits-while-running situation. Zero Motorcycles executive management considered this information and determined that a defect related to motor vehicle safety existed.

Zero Motorcycles is not aware of any accidents or injuries caused by this condition.

DESCRIPTION OF THE PROGRAM TO REMEDY THE DEFECT:
The remedy of this defect is for Zero Motorcycles dealers to update the suspect vehicles with revised controller firmware that deals with these infrequent faults in a way that does not result in an inadvertent quits-while-running condition.
****

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