ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: gsyyz on August 13, 2013, 09:22:51 PM
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Hello,
I'm thinking of purchasing a brand new 2011 Zero S from an Ex Zero Dealer clearing out his remaining stock. My question is, how can I know if he has kept the Bike/Battery properly maintained while sitting in his Dealership for 3 years? It only has 35 kms and he is willing to sell it for 6K Canadian, is that a good price? Also with the 2012 and 2013 improvements in motor and battery am I going to regret purchasing this 2011? I think I can bring him down to maybe 5K but I don't want to get stuck with a lemon. I've been following Zero for a few years and finally some older models are coming available in my price range. I know some brand new 2012 DS are going on clearance here in Canada for around 8K but that's still way over my budget.
Any advice would be great,
GSYYZ
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Ask about the warranty coverage. The 2011 bikes came with two years of warranty. If it is brand new then the warranty should be intact. Consider how you will transport the bike to the nearest dealer in case of the bike needing service.
Ask the dealer how they maintained the battery. 99% probability that he just left the bike plugged in. Count on some level of range degradation .. the 2011 batteries were not as durable as the 2012 batteries.
Ask about recalls. The 2011 bikes have seen at least 2 recalls. NHTSA link (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchDetails.action)
We've seen a couple of reports from owners that have recently bought a "new" 2011 bike and then seen battery issues. I don't know how common this is - chances are that owners with perfectly working bikes won't log on to post. Factor that risk into the price you're willing to pay.
Alternatively, you could ask the dealer for a grace period to return the bike if there are immediate problems. I would think any issues would likely show up within a 1 week period. If the dealer is a motivated seller then you should be able to come to agreeable terms.
$6k canadian sounds high, especially if you can get a 2012 DS (assume ZF6) for $8k.
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Thanks protomech, when I asked about the warranty he wasn't sure and said maybe a year left on it. I'm guessing he activated the warranty with Zero.
I'll definately ask about the recalls and review the link you provided, this Dealership is located 4 hours away from me but I have two local Dealers to deal with 30 minutes away if needed. I love the Zero S and I was attracted to this Dealership since they had one in stock at a reasonable price.
My main concern is the battery life and the motor not being brushless, I've read that you can't even compare the 2012 S to the 2011. Even if I get this bike for 4K will I be able to purchase a new battery from Zero to replace it in the future? I know parts are slowly discontinuing for 2011, I'm excited about this 2011 Zero S mainly because of the price and the reality of owning one of these bikes.
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Hi
I just bought the 2011 XU 20 mile on it for 4k it only has the 2kw batt but based on the real life condition you will probable only see 1/2 the rated miles. Spoke to Zero and they said that that was the average. I think that a potential buyer should have realistic exception of the bikes range.
So based on that you are looking at 30 mile range with the 4.4 kw battery.
Here the PDF that will provide you with the info on how to establish the battery setup see below. not part of my operator manual.
So far my bike working well and my range is about 15 miles with 1000 mile on it now. In the future I will be adding a supplemental battery to increase my range to 30 mile. Here's some of the modification I done so far: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3051.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3051.0)
Good luck with the purchase let ut know how you make out.
Jerry
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Even if I get this bike for 4K will I be able to purchase a new battery from Zero to replace it in the future?
I would definitely shoot this question to Zero customer service.
888-RUN-ZERO or service@zeromotorcycles.com
Let us know what you hear back.
I'd love to see Zero support the older bikes (yes, a 2.5 year old design is older!) with newer battery chemistries. Even if the absolute volume is small, improved parts availability is a huge boon to existing customers and potential new customers.
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My main concern is the battery life and the motor not being brushless, I've read that you can't even compare the 2012 S to the 2011. Even if I get this bike for 4K will I be able to purchase a new battery from Zero to replace it in the future? I know parts are slowly discontinuing for 2011, I'm excited about this 2011 Zero S mainly because of the price and the reality of owning one of these bikes.
Hi,
I am happily riding a 2011 and at about 6000km I have replaced the brushes. Zero support has been very helpful in particular as the nearest Dealer from us is about 5000 miles away now! Just that we are not sure if indeed the brushes have been the problem (they did not look to bad) or in fact the contactor arcing. If the dealer near you is willing to support you during what is left of warranty or based on labour with parts free from Zero it might be an easy call. Otherwise, I found it much easier to work on a Zero than on any ICE bike.
What I like at the older models is that they use mostly standard EV parts. This means spares and knowledge is more readily available within the EV community. An item to consider if the support ends and parts are discontinued by Zero. For any battery issues I am not to concerned; in the battery pack seem to be some sort of standard batteries and any EV/battery expert could assist to replace faulty batteries. Then again, wasn't there a warranty or guarantee of 30,000 miles on the 2011 batteries ?? So should be quite save. Would be interested to hear if the battery is indeed good (ie. has been kept plugged in). I heard from dealers that did not keep the bikes plugged in !! Therefore a test (how to anyone?), or 14 day test purchase with the right to return ?
In terms of range typical get 60km-70km in mixed riding (commuting around town with some freeways). Happy with that.
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It would have to be alot cheaper than that for me to even consider it. They are fairly nippy but need more maintenance and range is poor. Do you have experience with EV's?
If i was you id save for a few more months and get a 2012 model bike.
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Hi Guys,
Thank you so much for your feedback, this community is mind blowing. I have ZERO experience with EV's or with ICE motorcyles. I've owned a Suzuki Maurader 800cc ten years ago and only put 1000km on the bike before selling it, I didn't attempt any maintenance or mods so again I have very little experience. Something that attracted me to the EV world was the low maintenance (no oil changes, fluids, gas, transmission etc.) on the bikes. One of the big selling points at my local Zero Dealership. But after reading through this forum it seems like work needs to be done on certain parts like the motor after only a few thousand kms. Don't get me wrong I'm still very interested and will be calling Zero customer service today to ask about warranty. I do see some used 2012 Zero s coming up for around 8K but again that is out of my price range. Maybe in the spring of 2014 2012's will come down in price.
I am considering making the 4 hour drive to the Dealer that has the 2011 Zero S for sale, again this Dealer only has the one Zero for sale. He lost his Zero Dealership in 2012 and only sells EV scooters, he actually told me that he paid 10k for the bike new as a Dealer owner and losing his shirt on selling it for 6K. I bet if I offered him $4500.00 he would take it but you never know.
What would you pay for a brand new 2011 Zero S?
I'll keep you guys updated on what Zero has to say about the warranty on a 2011 S.
Thanks,
GSYYZ
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With a full warranty and a magic new battery, I'd pay $5k USD for a 2011 S.
The 2013 XU ZF2.8 represents a hard upper limit ($8k USD) for older bike pricing. With similar range (38 miles city vs 43 miles city 2011 S), higher top speed, and MUCH faster acceleration .. nevermind the lower maintenance motor, lower weight, phone connectivity, modular battery .. it's just a much better bike IMO.
With a questionable battery, I'd pay $3k USD for the 2011 bike and just factor in an expected replacement into my costs.
If I had a return option (7 day or 14 day), I'd pay $3.5k to $4k USD.
All of the above is predicated upon either doing my own servicing (easier on 2011 than 2012+) or being near a Zero service center.
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Thank you for the great advice protomech, “magic new battery†can you actually replace the 2011 with an updated 2012 battery? Factoring in all the unknowns with this 2011 S I’m willing to take the risk if I can get it for $3.5K to $4K. The good thing is I have two Zero service centers within 30 kms away from my house. Now the challenge is to get the darn bike for that price, wish me luck. Giving Zero a quick call regarding warranty.
Thanks,
GZYYZ
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Contacted Zero’s customer service and there is no warranty available for the 2011 Zero S, their advice is to stay clear away from the 2011 technology and wait for a used 2012 Zero S to come available. That’s advice straight from the manufacturer, he mentioned that the technology in the 2012’s will remain the same until 2016.
What do you guys think about that comment from Zero?
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By "magic new battery" I mean one that is in 2011-new condition. Even a "new" 2011 battery will have today have degraded substantially if not ridden regularly.
Edit: there are four maintenance cycles for a battery of this age. Ranked from least injurious to most injurious:
1. Stored in moderate temperatures at ~50% SOC, periodically going through a charge / discharge / balance cycle
2. Ridden frequently, for a typical commute cycle this means 1/2 the day at < 100% SOC
3. Left on the charger @ 100% SOC
4. Left uncharged @ 0% SOC ("bricked")
I assume Zero meant the 2013 bikes. They switched battery suppliers and motors for the 2013 bikes, but I'm not surprised they'll carry that technology for a couple of years.
Without a warranty I'd second their recommendation to stay away from the bike, unless you have an opportunity to ride it for an extended period of time (3-5 discharge cycles) and verify that it works properly.
If you're willing to tinker with it, then by all means talk them down and buy it if they're reasonable with the price. But just expect a battery that has been left on a charger for 2 years to be less than 100%.
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Where in Canada are you? Mitchell Cycle in Southern Ontario might have something left over from demo stock etc. (i.e. they have a 2012 XU for sale at $3,000, not sure of the KM though).
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Protomech thank you for your detailed information and advice, after doing more research and this wonderful forums advice I’m leaning towards not getting the 2011 S. To many unknowns with the battery and honestly I don’t have the time and patience to tinker.
Craigq I live maybe 2 hours from Mitchell and yesterday when I chatted with Eric he didn’t have a used or new 2012 XU. I would jump on a used 2012 XU for 3K in a heartbeat, the range of the XU is my only concern. I do see a couple of used 2012 XU’s for sale in the 5K range in my area. But deals out there for Brand New DS’s for under 8K would be more appealing if only I could afford it.
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Sorry he must have sold it between the time it was posted (28-july) on the zero forum and when you called.
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Protomech thank you for your detailed information and advice, after doing more research and this wonderful forums advice I’m leaning towards not getting the 2011 S. ...
Good choice. I made the mistake of buying a 2011 Zero S with < 400 miles on the odometer for $5K USD. It never came close to making the advertised range. To go the distance I bought it to do, about 20% below the advertised range, I have to stop and charge for 40 minutes somewhere along the route. And that's with keeping the speed to 35-45mph. Supposedly the bike is under warranty through this month but the local dealer and Zero refuse to do anything about it. Sure with I'd gotten on this forum first.
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When I got my demo 2011 DS it had about 40km on it if I remember and the battery was able to give me true 60km MAX range and 35km on highway before it cut.
I measured battery energy and got 3000Wh out of the 3900Wh rated....
On my 2012 S I have measured 7650Wh out of 7900 rated Wh but that time, the battery was not empty to 0%.. and it did not cut.... I was just tired of running the bike 30km around my neiborhood to empty the battery to 0%... so I stopped before the battery cut... maybe it would have done 7800Wh or so... wich is excellent!
Doc
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@Doc, didn't you have plans at one stage to build up battery capacity on your 2011? Or to hard even for you ? Easier to get a newer model ? Can't locate this at the moment on here or endlessphere forums.
as we still do not have 2012 or 2013 models I am keen to see how difficult it is to extend the range.
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I also got a 2011 XU, it runs flawless so far. The range is 25km each charge. I find I have improved range after let the bike plugged in for 1 winter season. (BTW, I was away from Canada last winter) I only got 20km before.
Anyway, I think the 2011 S, with double the battery of XU, you will get around 50km avg per charge, all depends on the speed and terrain.
For me personally, I really want to see Zero makes improved battery for the older model. So that those older model owner can continue use our bikes with increased range.
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Contacted Zero’s customer service and there is no warranty available for the 2011 Zero S, their advice is to stay clear away from the 2011 technology and wait for a used 2012 Zero S to come available. That’s advice straight from the manufacturer, he mentioned that the technology in the 2012’s will remain the same until 2016.
What do you guys think about that comment from Zero?
A company slating their own product! Amazing!
Imagine you were the dealer that had paid zero $10k for this bike and zero undermined your sale in this way?! Scandalous
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Contacted Zero’s customer service and there is no warranty available for the 2011 Zero S, their advice is to stay clear away from the 2011 technology and wait for a used 2012 Zero S to come available. That’s advice straight from the manufacturer, he mentioned that the technology in the 2012’s will remain the same until 2016.
What do you guys think about that comment from Zero?
A company slating their own product! Amazing!
Imagine you were the dealer that had paid zero $10k for this bike and zero undermined your sale in this way?! Scandalous
Hardly, Everybody knows that electric bikes are outdated within a year. If anything it shows they value customer satisfaction over shifting old stock.
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It is good for Zero as a BRAND to look for customer service, but, it is difficult enough to get dealers to carry
them in the first place. If the dealers end up with old stock that is of ZERO ( pardon the pun ) value, they will
be gun shy about future inventory. If Zero advises against the purchase, they should offer some sort of credit
on N.O.S. toward new inventory. This way, they keep potential purchasers happy, and, at least a little help to
the dealer. I had a hard time getting the local dealer to sell me one. They had virtually no interest in even
discussing the bike. When I did finally get someone to talk to me, I had to educate them on almost every
aspect of it.
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Hardly, Everybody knows that electric bikes are outdated within a year. If anything it shows they value customer satisfaction over shifting old stock.
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The relationship is essentially a 3 way one in which every party is supposed to support one another for it to work, by undermining the dealer in this way Zero lose a potential outlet for their product as the dealer is actually the biggest customer the Zero will have and Zero should support the ongoing relationship over one sale. KrazyEd is right that Zero should have found a creative way to make the situation work for all parties instead of bad mouthing their own product and undermining their relationship with the dealer.
The original vision for the product was that you could upgrade it when a new motor or battery was announced making it a truly green product which attracted me and I am sure many other potential buyers to the fold. Its a dark day when a company will not stand by their own unused product and burns bridges with dealers. It would therefore seem that the Zero motorcycle has simply become another throw away electrical commodity rather than the sustainable benchmark it was once touted as. :'(
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The original vision for the product was that you could upgrade it when a new motor or battery was announced making it a truly green product which attracted me and I am sure many other potential buyers to the fold. Its a dark day when a company will not stand by their own unused product and burns bridges with dealers. It would therefore seem that the Zero motorcycle has simply become another throw away electrical commodity rather than the sustainable benchmark it was once touted as. :'(
I have to second this. One of the main reasons I bought when I did instead of waiting another couple of years was because Zero had always said I would be able to upgrade components in the future. When they came out with the totally new bike I was seriously peeved to find that the new motor was not backwards compatible with older models. I know they have to make major changes to keep progressing at such a fast rate, but there must be a way to maintain long standing customers. Those of us that can't afford to buy a brand new bike every year at least.
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I agree with both of you, zap mc and NoiseBoy. Zero has made rapid improvements in their bikes; in one sense this represents a victory for new/recent customers - imagine if Zero was still selling ~25 hp brushed DC motors today, with 4-5 kWh molicel packs - but in the other sense it hurts both previous customers and dealers with existing inventory.
Large discontinuous advancements are not unprecedented in the motorcycle world. For example, when Ducati introduced the 1199, they surely did not offer to buy back 1198 bikes .. and 1199 parts surely do not bolt right onto the 1198.
So what's different for Zero? Obviously sales (and perhaps margins) are much lower per dealership - it's harder for dealers to eat the cost of depreciation - and the advances are more frequent.
I think this situation will naturally improve; there's been a lot of hints that the 2014 models may share a great deal with the 2013 models, and hopefully some improvements for 2014 can be brought backwards to the 2013 owners.
How can Zero improve this situation for both customers and dealers, while remaining financially solvent?
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I think the original Zero product was great and still do!
It has a big weight advantage over the later heavier bikes.
We all like progress but it is when the factory fail to support older models that it hurts the customer relationship and then the reputation of the brand. Most Japanese bikes still provide parts for their earlier models and by this route still maintain a relationship with the customer where the customer can feel the manufacturer stands by their product with pride and doesn't want to distance themselves from it like ugly ex girlfriend! If Zero were smart they would realise that that cultivating these relationships would lead to an endless revenue stream and a chance to up sell.
Zero are not financially solvent as i see it, they are essentially a bankrupt company in my opinion as sales of bikes could never even cover the wages bill let alone anything else, just multiply the staff count by a typical average wage to have an idea of their running costs then multiply the number of bikes sold by a typical profit and see which total is larger...