ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: MostlyBonkers on October 06, 2015, 07:47:19 PM
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Some of you may recall my spill on a Zero SR during the UK demo day. I nearly had a repeat experience on my way to work yesterday morning with my VFR.
As I started to accelerate past a lorry the back wheel span up and the back of the bike stepped out. Fortunately an orange light on the dash lit up, the throttle backed off and I regained control.
The wheelspin didn't seem as severe as on the Zero, so I like to think that I would have managed to control it myself. I've had a similar experience in the past on a different bike and managed to save it. However, I'm certain that in this case the bike reacted quicker than I could have. The back only stepped out a little and it was therefore much easier to keep the bike upright. There's no guarantee that I would have saved it without traction control and I could well have ended up beneath the wheels of the lorry.
I believe ABS will come as standard on all new bikes next year in Europe. Hopefully traction control will follow soon after. Losing grip isn't always down to rider error. Inferior tyres, water and oil on the road can catch even experienced riders out. When the rider is at fault, having technology help you get out of trouble has got to be a good thing. Yes I do need to take more care, but broken bones or worse is a harsh punishment for a tiny twist too far on the throttle.
I hope that any Zero employees reading this take note and make sure it comes as standard on the full range as soon as possible.
Thank you Honda!
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I've had a few moments already on the BMW that I thanked Munich for putting traction control on the electric scooter. On the wet, having to accelerate suddenly, on any bike previous it wouldn't have been a problem. But with all the immediate torque, on an electric bike, it really means paying attention to your throttle control.
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Yes, I've had fishtail episodes on my 13 DS, thanks to Seattle's ideal combination of: rain, hills, and gravel near turns.
Traction control seems desirable and inevitable, but thankfully the bike is easier to bring back under control than an ICE bike, because the torque control is so continuous/smooth. Use that Eco mode when wet.
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I didn't know the BMW has traction control! I guess I shouldn't be surprised but it is very commendable on a first generation product.
It's also interesting that the DS is prone to spinning up in bad conditions. The equivalent of eco mode on the VFR is drive mode. Why I thought I could get away with sport mode in the wet, I don't know. I must be bonkers...
Thanks for your comments as always. [emoji4]
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I don't think there are two ways to look at it: for street riding traction and ABS control should be standard! Just like on cars, the benefits are unquestionable. Let's be honest - raise your hand if you ride on the street in a way that a traction control or a good ABS system will be in the way? Someone raised their hand? You shouldn't be on the street :o !
Off-road? Turn it/them down/off.
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Yep, one main reason I put a Bazzaz system on my GSXR is because it features traction control. A bike with high torque can spin up easily, especially if leaned over. It's a nice thing to have on public roads. The only reason pro's sometimes turn it off is because they can lose fractions of a second off their lap time if it cuts in.
Sometimes I wish even my KTM530 had some traction control on dirt!
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I actually washed out on some gravel a few months ago and traction control would have saved me. Was taking a 90 degree right hand turn at a light. Started to accelerate when straightening out and my rear hit a patch of gravel and started to slide out from under me. I attempted to turn the bars into the slide to counter, but then the rear caught traction again and the torque launched me forward into the curb at around 30mph. I wasn't hurt, but I sure was rattled!
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I am usually a ABS/traction control naysayer simply because it gives people a false sense of security. Grip is limited by your tires; ABS/traction control will not put your body in the correct position to ride out of a situation. But to offload my front brake (after a massive brake fade incident) I have started practicing using the rear brake, and got into a little rear wheel slide a few days ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulg_tQ2c8FY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulg_tQ2c8FY)
Notice the speedometer goes to zero because the rear is locked up. The rear was coming out to the right, and when I released the brake the bike shuddered in recovery. I was riding at 8/10 so luckily not serious, but all that it took was some front braking to shift the weight forward and that made rear lock up much easier. I think I tipped the bike into the turn with the rear brake applied and that initiated the skid. Rear ABS would have been nice in this situation...
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I have had two moments today. The first moment was in a fast corner. When I opened the accelerator, the rear wheel started spinning and I made a (small) power slide. I kept the bike under control, so nothing serious.
The second moment was when I went of the ferry and I wanted to be ahead of the cars. So the rear wheel span on the slippery surface of the ferry. For these moments, it would be helpful to have traction control.
I rode a KTM 1190 Adventure last weekend and that bike has TC. That makes the bike almost foolproof.
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I am usually a ABS/traction control naysayer simply because it gives people a false sense of security.
I'm sorry but I have to call you out on your bullshit. "False sense of security" What a load. I guess helmets, kevlar, gloves, and heavy boots also give false senses of security too?
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I am usually a ABS/traction control naysayer simply because it gives people a false sense of security.
I'm sorry but I have to call you out on your bullshit. "False sense of security" What a load. I guess helmets, kevlar, gloves, and heavy boots also give false senses of security too?
A sense of security is purely subjective ... and thus you can't say something will or wont give someone a sense of security because you don't know what they are thinking.
I have personally heard stories from friends who went down telling me they felt like they were superman with all their gear and everything would be ok ... so they went faster.
Many things can bring someone a false sense of security ... not just gear or ABS. How could people otherwise push the limits of their abilities on the track without knowing if they go down they will likely not get hurt badly if wearing the proper gear for track racing?
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I am usually a ABS/traction control naysayer simply because it gives people a false sense of security.
I'm sorry but I have to call you out on your bullshit. "False sense of security" What a load. I guess helmets, kevlar, gloves, and heavy boots also give false senses of security too?
A sense of security is purely subjective ... and thus you can't say something will or wont give someone a sense of security because you don't know what they are thinking.
I have personally heard stories from friends who went down telling me they felt like they were superman with all their gear and everything would be ok ... so they went faster.
Many things can bring someone a false sense of security ... not just gear or ABS. How could people otherwise push the limits of their abilities on the track without knowing if they go down they will likely not get hurt badly if wearing the proper gear for track racing?
+1. It's totally subjective. I ride more conservatively when I am not wearing a leather jacket with hard parts and a good pair of gloves. On the other hand, no amount of protection or ABS or traction control would give my mom any sense of security let alone a false sense of security.
I am going to assume Fivespeed's real objection is to the notion that because it might give someone a false sense of security it shouldn't be on the bike in the first place.
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never raced with bikes but i have with cars and i performed some test with traction control and abs on and off on the car on the same day. We had a switch we could turn them on and off at will. Don't remember the exact numbers but on dry pavement the abs stopped in something like 160 feet and the best non racer could do was like 170 feet with the abs off, but put a good racer in the car and they could only beat the abs by maximum 10 feet. Considering that that person was a racer for many years and was ready for the stop is the only reason they beat the abs, under normal conditions on the road no one would be able to beat abs don't care how good you are. Traction control was the same thing, a average person could handle a event with traction control if they reacted quickly enough, but with the traction control off only the a racer that was expecting it was able to re-gain control and that was not 100%.
Never had a bike with traction control, i just tend to ride like a grandpa when i ride in the rain or light snow. Also go skiing around the corners when there is a chance for ice.
If they added the traction control to the bikes they might have to add some type of hydraulic acumulator on the bike so the system could control the breaks without the rider applying pressure. Beside that i don't think there would be anything else to add to the bike besides a couple thousand lines of code to the computer.
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If either traction control or ABS kicks in, you know you got it wrong because you exceeded the limits of your bike. It might not be your fault, although if you're riding properly you should be giving yourself enough space and time to react and avoid or stop. We don't always ride perfectly though. We can't always spot a slippery surface in time. It can be easy to misjudge how much grip you have, unless you always ride on exactly the same tarmac, have perfect tyres and so on.
Even with the assistance of TC or ABS, it is still going to be a hairy experience. You might just walk away from it though and that has to be a good thing.
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Bonkers you might have miss-associated something someone else said with FiveSpeeds response.
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Edited, thanks Burton.
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Edited, thanks Burton.
You are welcome sir. Might I also point out Manzanita also said "Rear ABS would have been nice in this situation..." when referring to locking up the rear in a corner ...
I am not sure he is against ABS and only started out with his previous stance when making his point. ;)
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Edited again, this time to just reinforce the benefits of rider aids and not point any fingers. I did misinterpret a post or two there. Well moderated Burton, thanks again!
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Edited again, this time to just reinforce the benefits of rider aids and not point any fingers. I did misinterpret a post or two there. Well moderated Burton, thanks again!
lol np ...
I find if something brings out emotion in me from a first reading because I know of a different "truth" then I tend to go back and re-read the content several times to make sure I understand what is being said before responding. And typically when I respond instead of attacking the ideas I often find myself asking questions of the other person to clarify their view in case they have thought of something I haven't yet.
Only after I think I know their view I open a dialog for discussion ... and by discussion I don't mean preaching. I mean asking if there is anything which might change the other persons perspective if I still think mine is accurate to the facts I have seen. If they say no and keep to their bias I might not even address their side of the argument as I know nothing will come from it less there is an audience which would benefit from seeing such an opposition.
;)
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You're a gentleman Burton, thank you. I've copied your last post into my notes for my reference. Wise words put across in a kind manner. They'll improve the quality of my posts in future. I do have a tendency to let emotions get the better of me at times, something the HR department at work are very aware of...
I'd like to see that post incorporated into a stickie. Despite this forum being one of the most civilised I've come across, I'm sure there are others that would benefit from reading your post. Do you know who administers it?
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I am usually a ABS/traction control naysayer simply because it gives people a false sense of security.
I'm sorry but I have to call you out on your bullshit. "False sense of security" What a load. I guess helmets, kevlar, gloves, and heavy boots also give false senses of security too?
A sense of security is purely subjective ... and thus you can't say something will or wont give someone a sense of security because you don't know what they are thinking.
I have personally heard stories from friends who went down telling me they felt like they were superman with all their gear and everything would be ok ... so they went faster.
Many things can bring someone a false sense of security ... not just gear or ABS. How could people otherwise push the limits of their abilities on the track without knowing if they go down they will likely not get hurt badly if wearing the proper gear for track racing?
+1. It's totally subjective. I ride more conservatively when I am not wearing a leather jacket with hard parts and a good pair of gloves. On the other hand, no amount of protection or ABS or traction control would give my mom any sense of security let alone a false sense of security.
I am going to assume Fivespeed's real objection is to the notion that because it might give someone a false sense of security it shouldn't be on the bike in the first place.
You nailed it. Street riding isn't track riding. You cannot predict when some old lady pulls out in front of you. Or something flies out the back of a truck, or whatever random crap comes your way. Or it's hot and sunny and a quick downburst happens at the same moment the light turns yellow - actually witnessed a bike skid and crash like that. Sucks they didn't have ABS when the tires locked up.
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I am a bit hesitant throwing-in the below info, as I know next to nothing about racing, but seems to me that if back then Robert Dunlop had some sort of stability ("frontie") control on his bike, he would not have flipped over and ultimately died and caused serious injury to another rider in the process. The reason for the flip was likely the way his custom front brake operated, and despite his experience he did not have time to react properly to this situation....
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/robert-dunlop-died-after-modified-brake-accident-says-inquest-28536161.html (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/robert-dunlop-died-after-modified-brake-accident-says-inquest-28536161.html)
If you got Netflix, the movie "Road" with footage of that crash (and a few more crashes and a lot of racing) is available for streaming.