ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: alko on March 21, 2019, 07:01:33 AM
-
Just wanted to start by saying Zero has neen very good answering my questions via email. Usually within 24 hours which is great. I really appreciate that.
My last question to them was if there is a DC charge tank in the works for my 2017 DSR in the near future. Unfortunately, there is not. Thats too bad.
My question to you is, will there be an aftermarket option?
-
Just wanted to start by saying Zero has neen very good answering my questions via email. Usually within 24 hours which is great. I really appreciate that.
My last question to them was if there is a DC charge tank in the works for my 2017 DSR in the near future. Unfortunately, there is not. Thats too bad.
My question to you is, will there be an aftermarket option?
What is it that you're trying to accomplish? The quick charger Anderson connector above the motor is for DC input.
The problem is that the infrastructure for the 116.5 VDC input doesn't exist out on the road. But the Zero external quick chargers do put out DC. If they only had charging stations with four or five Zero quick chargers in parallel out on the road, with a long cable, we would be all set for fast Zero road charging.
There are other ways possible to fast charge with DC--but don't expect to see it until Zero's become a VERY common thing to see on the road--and I think that is unlikely for a while.
My Zero SR has the power tank. So when I am on a long trip, I put a quick-charger in each saddle bag, along with the necessary cables to quickly charge from J1772's. There are other ways to quick charge too such as after market.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
A dc quick charging station can charge in 20 minutes with just one connection. Thats what I'm talking about. They just installed a dc quick charging station in my home town that charges from 50 kw up to 350 kw. Zeros charge tank is only 6 kw.
-
The voltage is too low. The amps needed for 350kws at 116 volts is over 3000 amps. That was one of the things we were talking about for the SRF which was, would they increase the voltage on the new bike. They didn't of course and instead went with a 12kw AC charging option.
-
The other thing to consider is that even if a DC station via CCS or CHAdeMO were to interface with Zero bikes, all batteries are currently capped at a 1C charge rate under warranty. This means, unless you void the warranty, the absolute fastest you can charge a Zero from empty --> full is 1 hour, no matter the battery size.
-
A dc quick charging station can charge in 20 minutes with just one connection. Thats what I'm talking about. They just installed a dc quick charging station in my home town that charges from 50 kw up to 350 kw. Zeros charge tank is only 6 kw.
What type of DC charging station?
Tesla uses 480 volts DC, some now above 120KW (>250 amps).
If you're going to charge with DC, no charge tank is needed on the vehicle. DC charging is the charger, unlike J-1772 which is NOT a charger, just is AC supply power for your charge tank which converts it to the DC for the battery.
If the charger is not in the bike, that means you can have a MUCH larger charger. But you cannot go over the rating of your battery. Fully charging from near 0 SOC to 100% faster than an hour is probably asking for trouble on any of the Zero batteries. More charge current will get the batteries a lot hotter, until the battery is destroyed.
BTW, with the Tesla DC Superchargers, your best charge is done in about 20 minutes. After that, the charge rate MUST drop to prevent the batteries from overheating. And Teslas have coolant for the batteries. Because of the small size of motorcycles, and the battery, there are many limitations on what you can safely do. Cars, like my Tesla, have more room for things like battery coolant.
It would be nice if there were 1C DC chargers on the road for Zeros, but it is very unlikely to ever happen, unless Zero becomes extremely common the the road.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Zero offered CHAdeMO back around the 2013-2014 time frame. It worked well with Eaton, Fuji and one or two other brands of CHAdeMO chargers. It didn't work well with some of the makes of CHAdeMO systems in California. I had one on order for my 2014 SR for about 6 months before Zero gave up and canceled it. Considering that most of the CHAdeMO systems in North Carolina were Eatons and Fuji it would have been great. Life went on and when Energica dropped their prices I jumped at the chance to get an electric motorcycle with DCFC. Now having done multi-day trips with both a Zero SR equipped with 6.3 kW charging and an Energica with CCS charging I will never buy another electric motorcycle without DCFC capability. Going out to western NC again this year in July, faster charging makes the trip so much more enjoyable.
-
The other thing to consider is that even if a DC station via CCS or CHAdeMO were to interface with Zero bikes, all batteries are currently capped at a 1C charge rate under warranty. This means, unless you void the warranty, the absolute fastest you can charge a Zero from empty --> full is 1 hour, no matter the battery size.
Thanks. I didn't know that. I'm no expert in this field, but your post made sense.
-
What type of DC charging station? Quote
I'll go snap a picture and post it. There is no name on the station. But they are white with green.
-
If you're going to charge with DC, no charge tank is needed on the vehicle. DC charging is the charger, unlike J-1772 which is NOT a charger, just is AC supply power for your charge tank which converts it to the DC for the battery.
[/quote]
Didn't know that either.
Thanks
That seem so simple, so why isn't that a standard?
-
Was told by my Wal-Mart manager that every Wal-Mart in the country will have these by end of year. Too bad it won't help us one damn bit. Come on Zero!
-
As I understand it one of the advantages of staying the low voltage range they do means they don't have to spend (millions?) a lot of cash for higher voltage certifications, not to mention a complete redesign of the batteries. As such they get to market it as safer because it's lower voltage. It's not going to zap nearly as painfully if a short happens and you get zapped at 110 volts vs 380.
It seems very likely it's a combination of the heavy investment they already have into their current setup coupled with a giant wad of cash they may not have to make the change. So frankly while the CCS/CHAdeMO stations sound wonderful, most of the infrastructure here in the US is the level 2 stations.
As an exercise, just for funsies, I'd like you to map out couple day trips in different directions on PlugShare. See how many J1772 stations are along your route. Now turn on CCS and see how many of those are along the same routes.
-
That seem so simple, so why isn't that a standard?
Perhaps someday there will be. For now, there are too many issues to work out.
However, even now there are many work-arounds for AC charging. I charge my Zero motorcycles along with two quick chargers (three chargers total) with my Tesla Wall Connector. (https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/wall-connector) That way, I do not have to run long thick extension cords all over the house.
I simply use a Tesla-Tap. (http://www.umc-j1772.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=50) This will also work on the Tesla "destination chargers" which are the same thing (240 VAC at 48 amps).
However, when it comes to DC charging, there is no simple way to convert high current DC. Many other issues also, such as Tesla's 480 volts DC Superchargers. One of the other reasons is that the Tesla Super Chargers authenticate VINs. As soon as I plug in my Tesla, it knows it is MY Tesla. Nothing else other than Tesla can charge from the DC Superchargers. If I am charged for the Supercharge, it automatically goes to my credit card by just plugging in--no buttons to press or anything.
I doubt I will still be alive when they have a DC standard for charging. We're lucky, IMO, that J1772 became a common AC standard.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Was told by my Wal-Mart manager that every Wal-Mart in the country will have these by end of year. Too bad it won't help us one damn bit. Come on Zero!
But will help me a lot with my Tesla. :)
But I always thought it would be nice if the large DC chargers at least had an AC outlet on them that we could use on our Zeros. 120 VAC is so common, but so rare when we need it on the road.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
But I always thought it would be nice if the large DC chargers at least had an AC outlet on them that we could use on our Zeros. 120 VAC is so common, but so rare when we need it on the road.
Uh, I don't know what it's like where you are but in my area it's very common for ChargePoint stations to have both J1772 and a standard 5-15 (wall) outlet on them.
-
It seems very likely it's a combination of the heavy investment they already have into their current setup coupled with a giant wad of cash they may not have to make the change.
This ^ and, as someone else pointed out, the battery pack is only capable of 1C charging anyhow. We've already got that with L2 solutions, so it doesn't seem to me that a DC solution is all that compelling. It would allow you to leave the weight and bulk of the charger behind, but it wouldn't allow you to charge any faster.
-
Well and, more importantly, we still NEED Level 2 charging. At least where I am in California. If you eliminate all the onboard charging that means I have to live station to station. This is basically what H-D did with the LiveWire and the prospect is terrifying.
-
So frankly while the CCS/CHAdeMO stations sound wonderful, most of the infrastructure here in the US is the level 2 stations.
Not so in Europe. Zero needs DC charging to succeed here.
-
As long as they have the 1C cap enabled it won't make any difference whether or not they can use DC stations in Europe, as the SR/F is very nearly at the limit with its 12kW units.
-
Well and, more importantly, we still NEED Level 2 charging. At least where I am in California. If you eliminate all the onboard charging that means I have to live station to station. This is basically what H-D did with the LiveWire and the prospect is terrifying.
I think H-D's plan is for their LiveWire customers to go from H-D dealership to H-D dealership, looking for a DC charging station. ::)
-
As long as they have the 1C cap enabled it won't make any difference whether or not they can use DC stations in Europe, as the SR/F is very nearly at the limit with its 12kW units.
Well, we will have to pay extra for the charger, add extra weight to the bike and rely on extra electronics that can fail ... all really unnecessary.
-
I think H-D's plan is for their LiveWire customers to go from H-D dealership to H-D dealership, looking for a DC charging station. ::)
Assuming there's a dealership every... 50 miles apart or whatever the highway range ends up being on that thing *IF* it actually comes out.
-
Uh, I don't know what it's like where you are but in my area it's very common for ChargePoint stations to have both J1772 and a standard 5-15 (wall) outlet on them.
Which are neither DC nor chargers.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Yeah. That's because you asked about AC outlets.
-
Yeah. That's because you asked about AC outlets.
On DC chargers. We do not need AC outlets on J1772 (as long as we have the adapter cable or J inlet).
There is one exception, I have seen AC outlets on J-1772 stations. They come in handy when the J-1772 is being used on a cage.
If they would put AC outlets on the DC chargers, there will be a heck of a lot more chargers we can use.
-Don-
-
So frankly while the CCS/CHAdeMO stations sound wonderful, most of the infrastructure here in the US is the level 2 stations.
Not so in Europe. Zero needs DC charging to succeed here.
Exactly. I'm currently thinking about buying either a SR/F or an Energica Eva SS9. I'm going to test ride both, but I'm afraid it will come down to (quick) charging. Both cost about the same in Europe and the Eva charges twice as fast. And we have a lot of CCS chargers here in Austria.
-
Rule of thumb for NMC (like the ones used on Zero) cells : doesn't matter how big your battery is, or how beefy chargers you use, or where you plug in, you still can't get a full charge in under 1 hour without risking a damage to the cells. I'm sure people have done it, and had success, but Farasis puts the max charging current at 1C, which means 1 hour min.
-
I think H-D's plan is for their LiveWire customers to go from H-D dealership to H-D dealership, looking for a DC charging station. ::)
Assuming there's a dealership every... 50 miles apart or whatever the highway range ends up being on that thing *IF* it actually comes out.
Don't forget that "electrify america" teamed up with Wal-Mart to install non-propriotory dc chargers at over 600 Wal-Mart's by end of 2019. There are already 2 within 50 miles from me, and 3 within 100 miles.
-
Don't forget that "electrify america" teamed up with Wal-Mart to install non-propriotory dc chargers at over 600 Wal-Mart's by end of 2019. There are already 2 within 50 miles from me, and 3 within 100 miles.
They will also have level two AC charging that our Zeros can use.
But no Telsa SuperChargers?
-Don- Reno, NV
-
None of the Electrify America charging stations in North Carolina have L2 charging. They only have one CHAdeMO and several (varies) number of CCS chargers. They also installed some of them close to the store so they are frequently ICE'd.
-
I think H-D's plan is for their LiveWire customers to go from H-D dealership to H-D dealership, looking for a DC charging station. ::)
Assuming there's a dealership every... 50 miles apart or whatever the highway range ends up being on that thing *IF* it actually comes out.
Don't forget that "electrify america" teamed up with Wal-Mart to install non-propriotory dc chargers at over 600 Wal-Mart's by end of 2019. There are already 2 within 50 miles from me, and 3 within 100 miles.
All of the press releases I was able to find indicate it would be 100 walmarts by EOY2019. Perhaps 6 charger units per walmart?
-
Don't forget that "electrify america" teamed up with Wal-Mart to install non-propriotory dc chargers at over 600 Wal-Mart's by end of 2019. There are already 2 within 50 miles from me, and 3 within 100 miles.
They will also have level two AC charging that our Zeros can use.
But no Telsa SuperChargers?
-Don- Reno, NV
There is no level 2 chargers at the ones near me. All dc from 50kw to 350kw.
-
[/quote]
All of the press releases I was able to find indicate it would be 100 walmarts by EOY2019. Perhaps 6 charger units per walmart?
[/quote]
They already have over 100 sites constructed and each site has an average of 4.4 chargers.
A direct quote from electrify america said.
"The network says it “plans to install or have under construction 484 charging station sites with more than 2,000 ultra-fast chargers by July 1†of this year. "
-
I wonder how many hydrogen fueling stations can be funded with the same amount of time and money? ::)
-
There is no level 2 chargers at the ones near me. All dc from 50kw to 350kw.
At the Wal*Marts, the level two should be in by the end of the year.
Click here. (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1116327_really-fast-electric-car-charging-stations-coming-to-a-walmart-near-you)
"Alongside the fast chargers, the company will install standard Level 2, 240-volt chargers for electric cars and plug-in hybrids that don't have DC fast-charge capability."
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Electrify America will be game changer for HD if the Live Wire can charge fast. There is another thread observing that Zero may be missing the boat by sticking with level 2. Now that the EA dc only fast stations are popping up all around, I’m starting to agree.
-
Electrify America will be game changer for HD if the Live Wire can charge fast. There is another thread observing that Zero may be missing the boat by sticking with level 2. Now that the EA dc only fast stations are popping up all around, I’m starting to agree.
Maybe, maybe not. The distance between Electrify America stations, which I quoted somewhere else on the forum, will make it difficult for any bike that gets less than something like 120 miles to travel the highway charging corridors.