ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: BZERO on August 07, 2013, 05:25:14 AM
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Greetings,
I recently decided to get a motorcycle as a second vehicle for commuting purposes (as well as the occasional joy ride) and I am absolutely psyched about the Zero S. However, I wont be able to buy one until at least September, and due to military training won't be riding for the first 1/3 (at least) of next year. From everything I read, both on this forum, and across the web it sounds like Zero isn't likely to introduce any major new changes into the 2014 models. Any ideas on when those would be announced? I know that the federal tax rebates this year expire, which means the new 2014 would cost at least the 10% extra from the lack of a tax rebate in addition to whatever the additional cost for the new models would be. Anybody have any speculations about what the new 2014 model (for the S) will be like, and when it would be announced? Speculations more than welcome.
Thanks
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I have no idea what the 2014 models will be like, but I plan to buy one too. Historically (such as it is), Zero tends to announce the specifications for their new models around September or October, with the bikes arriving around the end of January.
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P(0.90) larger controller, at least as an option (~70 hp)
P(0.70) reliability improvements (everything learned in last year)
P(0.70) tweaked plastics
P(0.60) LED headlight (option?)
P(0.50) J1772 inlet, possibly faster onboard charger
P(0.30) price drop (~$1000) .. probably not if J1772 inlet, LED headlight, other upgrades
P(0.10) battery tweaks.. possibly slightly higher voltage (unlikely) or a ZF17 option?
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Suspension upgrades like different rear shock.
Reliability updates for electrical.
Lighter weight FX modification kit.
The last one I mean for offrosd use, lighter is better and the FX could really use less weight.
Offroad bike does not need to carry the charger.
Doesn't need swapable batteries because they are so expensive I don't think very many people are using that feature. Not sure how much weight that would actually save. Unless swappable allows the bike to be ridden with only one battery, and then be charging the other. Then swap batteries back and forth for continuous ride time. I think it might take longer to charge 1 then it would take to drain one, so this feature probably does not work.
Lights and blinkers and other street legal stuff.
It really is nice to have street legal for the FX, but in pure offroad rides it would be better to have it lighter. So I was thinking Zero could sell the FX, but put together some data about how to modify it to reduce the weight. For example, if some electrical connectors are unplugged to remove the charger, a kit could include some caps to keep dirt out. It is a way to get the offroad model sort of back in the lineup without actually building any.
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I would bet.... almost nothing, just the correction for the electrical problem and the spocket getting loose problem.... These bikes are only one year old, it costs so much money to change a model and if it changes to much in 2014 I will wait for the 2015 model, in 2015 for the 2016 one....etc....etc
So what do you think about "nothing changes" ?
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Im with Z Turbo. I know Zero have a history of major upgrades every year but Im reasonably confident we will see only minor updates and tweaks for 2014. I dont think it makes economic sense to maintain a 9 month overhaul cycle. The big Japanese companies can't afford so neither will Zero in the long run. The new motor doesn't have alot of miles under its belt so a size 6 option would be a dangerous PR risk I think. Yes they could have the fastest practical e-bike or they could have the biggest warranty claim for melted motors.
Marshm, they already made a lighter FX. That was the MX which they no longer sell, I believe because the drivetrain was capable of doing things (like launching the bike over tabletops) that the chassis couldn't cope with.
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Zero has more engineers than any other category of employee, according to what I have heard about the makeup of their staff. Those guys are going to be doing something, but I agree that I am not expecting a lot of new stuff for 2014. I figure they will be working on motor cooling, glitch-proofing, minor suspension and brake upgrades and re-tuning and a few new accessories - along with bold new graphics. Based upon what I have heard in press ride reports about the motor running hot when being run up to top speed for more that a few minutes, I figure that a size 6 controller is not likely to be offered until motor cooling can be improved.
Also, with the federal tax rebate likely going away, Zero is going to be under a lot of pressure to bring the price of their bikes down $10, or at the very least hold the line on prices if the bikes will be upgraded with features like ABS.
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Unless swappable allows the bike to be ridden with only one battery, and then be charging the other.
That's exactly what it means. The FX can be ridden with just one battery, which takes out 42 pounds for shorter rides. However, the max power is reduced to the motor so that one battery doesn't supply more maximum current going solo as when it is sharing with the second battery. The 400 amp controller is thereby limited to 200 amps.
For the kind of trail riding I do (cruising) I probably wouldn't notice the difference except maybe on a very steep pitch. I doubt that I have ever ha my throttle at maximum when on dirt.
Trikester
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I like to see full faired option, reducing drag at speed should increase the range and top speed.
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Yes. A fairing would be a huge, huge boost to both top speed, range, and effective charge rate (miles/hour). Cheaper, lighter than adding batteries or chargers (after a point, there's still significant gains that can be achieved with faster chargers).
I don't understand why neither Brammo nor Zero have offered a faired option yet. Perhaps it's to establish brand identity (fairings can look a little generic) ..
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Ya, but then you'd have to take off fairings to get to the oil filter and change the oil and adjust the valves. LOL . I don't like faired bikes except for race bikes and then you need to go with the whole design...fly screen, clip-ons to get you down under the air resistence. These bikes are more mainstream as they are presently designed. A faired option would be fine though.
I am always for better range, higher sustained speed, better acceleration though except not at the expense of weight or much weight gain. Even though I have a 2013 Zero S, I would buy a 2014 if it improved in those three areas with no more than 10 lbs weight gain total. A sustained speed of 86 mph rather than 80, acceleration 0-60 mph of under 5 rather than under 6 seconds, and a highway range of 65 miles at 70 mph rather than 53, all with no more than a curb weight of 365 lbs rather than 355 lbs. I have no idea if it could be done. A quicker charging system is not important to me. In fact I prefer to plug into 110. I like the upright seated position too and looks of the bike. Smaller changes like improved tires, brakes and suspension (not really so small I guess) would help a little, but lacking the big 3 improvements, I'll probably not buy another Zero S in 2014.
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Just to be clear on how this works. When running one module it limits the "battery amps" not "motor amps". The end result is you have the "exact same" torque available up to about 45mph, with the bike weighing 42 lbs less. If you don't need the range, or full power at high speeds, it is much better to run the single module.
Unless swappable allows the bike to be ridden with only one battery, and then be charging the other.
That's exactly what it means. The FX can be ridden with just one battery, which takes out 42 pounds for shorter rides. However, the max power is reduced to the motor so that one battery doesn't supply more maximum current going solo as when it is sharing with the second battery. The 400 amp controller is thereby limited to 200 amps.
For the kind of trail riding I do (cruising) I probably wouldn't notice the difference except maybe on a very steep pitch. I doubt that I have ever ha my throttle at maximum when on dirt.
Trikester
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If the torque is the same up to 45 mph between 1 or 2 packs then this option does have more benifit than I thought, since I don't ride over 45mph offroad.
However, what I meant was a little different. For example, I ride using 1 pack and use up the energy. Then I go back to the truck and swap it out for a fully charged pack #2. Now the drained pack #1 is charging in the parking lot while I am riding. When I drain the 2nd pack, and go back to the parking lot, what will be the charging status of the first pack? Will it be fully charged, or 50% charged? I was hoping that by the time I drained 1 pack, the other would have had enough time to go to full charge on 110AC. This way the bike could be used all day. With harder offroad use, I suspect it is much faster to drain a pack then it is to charge one. I think to really ride all day by swapping, it would require more batteries and more chargers than just what the FX has.
I was doing an analysis like this on my battery powered chainsaw before I bought it a while ago. As it turns out, I am so out of shape that for the most part, it lasts long enough on 1 battery.
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Just to be clear on how this works. When running one module it limits the "battery amps" not "motor amps". The end result is you have the "exact same" torque available up to about 45mph, with the bike weighing 42 lbs less. If you don't need the range, or full power at high speeds, it is much better to run the single module.
Actually battery amps and motor amps are the same. What is being pulled from the battery is going to the motor, there is no other significant load for the battery than the motor.
Notice in my original comment I underlined maximum amps. Emotofreak and I are saying exactly the same thing. One pack or two the only effect in riding characteristics of the motor would be when asking for full power. Anything less and it would be the same except a lighter bike and less range with one batt.
As soon as the desert cools down next fall I going to try some shorter rides with one battery on my FX. I didn't do that yet because I was having too much fun doing long rides. But I've got some good shorter rides available near my desert cabin.
I probably won't ride the trike with one battery because all the weight would be on one side. Fast turns would be freaky, kind of like a sidecar rig.
Trikester
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I think emotofreak is right, if you limit your motor current it will slow down the whole acceleration, if you limit the battery max to 200A you can use 420A at low speed because it is a step down system so 400A will be possible till you reach ~half of battery voltage. Higher voltage => speed will reduce the current!
The intermediate circuit filter should average it. (hope this work in English but I think you know what I like to explain)
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I thought it depended on speed. If the motor is turning slowly, the voltage provided to it by the controller is less than battery voltage, so motor amps can actually be greater than battery amps in that case (motor power output is still less than battery max power output). The motor-controller system acts like a buck converter in other words. This would also explain why the torque is the same at lower RPM with one per two packs, but max motor power is lower with one pack.
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The controller controls current to the motor which determines how much torque is produced. In this case the controller is a switching regulator so each pulse would be full peak current but with a duty cycle determining the rms current (it's an AC motor). The rms current in the motor would be equal to the rms current flowing from the battery. It is physically impossible to have more current flowing in the motor than what is being supplied by the source (the battery). It is a series closed loop so the current all the way around the loop has to be equal.. Voltage drops at various points around the loop can vary greatly.
The question is: do they cut the max peak current to half with a single battery or do they cut the max rms current to half? Either way they control the max battery current. My guess would be that the peak is reduced to half, that would be the easiest to do in the controller. If full throttle is equal to a 100% duty cycle in the controller then the 1/2 setting of the peak would be 1/2 of the two battery full throttle (100% D) current.
Trikester
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I thought it depended on speed. If the motor is turning slowly, the voltage provided to it by the controller is less than battery voltage, so motor amps can actually be greater than battery amps in that case (motor power output is still less than battery max power output). The motor-controller system acts like a buck converter in other words. This would also explain why the torque is the same at lower RPM with one per two packs, but max motor power is lower with one pack.
The Sevcon uses something similar to PWM modulation so the peak voltage is essentially always the same as the battery voltage.
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Yes, you have peak voltage and rms voltage (or ave voltage) by PW modulation. Same with current.
Trikester
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The amount of current you pull out of the battery (battery amps), is almost never the same as the amount of current being delivered to the motor (motor amps), this only occurs at true max power. Think of it this way. If you want 1kw of power, and you have a 100v battery, this means you only pull 10amps out of the battery. To supply this 1kw to the motor you must apply some amount of voltage, which is a ratio of RPM to voltage. For example, to spin the motor at 1/10th it's max RPM, you apply 1/10th max voltage, actually you need a bit more but this is close enough for approximation. This means to spin the motor at 1/10 max rpm, you apply approx 10 volts at 100amps, to get your 1kw of output. It also means, if your motor and controller are up to it, you could push 1000amps into your motor at 1v, while only pulling 10amps out of you 100v battery.
Hope this makes sense.
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I repeat. It is a series closed loop. The current flowing in the battery cannot be different than the current flowing in the motor. It is a physical impossibility for there to be a different current flowing through the battery than through the motor. They are the same circuit including the Sevcon. The switching controller determines the rms or average current (dependent on which you want to measure) being pulled from the battery and delivered to the motor. That's why Doc's shunt, in series with the battery, can be used to calculate power, kWh, etc. It's because the current in any part of the loop is the same. The voltage across the motor depends on the rpm at any given moment.
When I roll on the throttle the current from the battery to the motor increases immediately, the voltage across the motor rises as the speed of the bike (motor rpm) increases more slowly. The current can be very high at first and then will drop off as the voltage climbs with increasing speed until a steady state is reached. That's why it takes more power to accelerate than to hold a steady speed. When I first twist the throttle the current has to go high to produce the power required to accelerate but at the voltage the motor was producing at the instant the throttle was increased. As the voltage increases with increasing speed the current can drop maintaining the required power. Current x Voltage. Voltage rises with speed and current drops as it does.
If the bike has two batteries in parallel then 1/2 the motor current is coming from one battery.
Trikester
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I just figured out the problem here. You are thinking of the Sevcon as a switchmode voltage controller, it is not, it is a switchmode current controller. It is telling the motor to take a certain level of current and the voltage across the motor will rise or fall depending on that current and rpm. Of course power is the product of those two but it is current that the Sevcon controls, not voltage. So it is not like a step up or step down voltage regulator where the current from the battery could be different than the current in a restive load. Since it is current that is being controlled, then it has to be the same around the loop.
The Sevcon controls the current taken from the battery and passed through the motor. It doesn't sense the voltage across the motor which is determined by the motor's series resistance and the rpm at any point in time.
Trikester
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"Yes, you have peak voltage and rms voltage (or ave voltage) by PW modulation. Same with current."
RMS and average voltage are not the same. A normal voltage meter reads average voltage (0.636 x Vp) and assumes that it is a sine wave at 60 Hz. It is calibrated to display the RMS voltage (0.707 x Vp). If this was not the case there would be no need for True RMS meters.
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A new model for 2014 ;)
Apparently called the Type-R.
It should be able to reach about 230km/h
I wonder if they will keep the S or replace with this model...
no more info from now... I leave you dreamig on the rest of teh specs :)
Doc
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A new model for 2014 ;)
Apparently called the Type-R.
It should be able to reach about 230km/h
For about 5 miles before you have to pull over and recharge. I would rather see better acceleration and a faster charger that makes use of the Sevcon to keep weight low.
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The Type R is apparently untue according to someone i know working at Zero :-\
we will see...
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Maybe it is the Hollywood Electrics bike with the size 6 that you have heard about?
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Ted Rich's Zero S, now with a Size 6 controller, was pushing 120 mph / 190 kph on the straight at Indy with minimal fairing. I don't doubt a size 6 bike could push 230 kph on a longer straight with taller gearing and better aerodynamics.
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Ted Rich's Zero S, now with a Size 6 controller, was pushing 120 mph / 190 kph on the straight at Indy with minimal fairing. I don't doubt a size 6 bike could push 230 kph on a longer straight with taller gearing and better aerodynamics.
So, you're headed to Bonneville at some point, then? ;)
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I'm going to speculate on a rear brake upgrade and some suspension tweaks.
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You are probably right Grindz, I don't think a new model year of bike has been released without 'suspension tweaks' in the history of commercial motorcycle sales. If Honda can't do a full overhaul on a model they always go with a different colour scheme and suspension tweaks.
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Could the Zero SR or Type-R rumor be more about an TTXGP eSS homologated customer race bike for next year, ala Brammo TTX? If they came with Size 6 controllers and were for "Track use only" (and there were enough made) that would make the Size 6 controller legal for certain and maintain the advantage Zeros have over the Brammos in that class for next year.
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also since the Zero new 2013 have an empty " gas tank" this might the occasion for them to use that free room to add some usefull stuff inside, like powerfull cahrger or adding more kWh of battery...
Doc
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Size 6 seems very likely to me too.
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Here's my shot in the dark about what may actually happen:
Minor adjustments to style
Slight upgrade to battery (if any)
Same motors
Possibly size 6 option
After riding across the country, here's what I'd like to see:
Larger onboard charger w/ J1772 connector
Aerodynamic body options (2) - 1 like Terry's and 1 that is aerodynamic but less odd. Preferably easily removable.
Slightly higher footpegs (mine scrape occasionally)
Standard ChaDeMo
On the tour I definitely would have preferred a more upright seating position, but don't need that for daily driving.
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I can't understand why they don't use the Sevcon for AC-DC rectification, it is designed to do it at high power. If they replaced the current charger with a box to step down to battery voltage you could charge at up to 6.6KW with probably less weight than the current setup. Its a no brainer to me.
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I can't understand why they don't use the Sevcon for AC-DC rectification, it is designed to do it at high power. If they replaced the current charger with a box to step down to battery voltage you could charge at up to 6.6KW with probably less weight than the current setup. Its a no brainer to me.
The mission R electric motorcycle claims to use the motor controller in reverse to "charge the battery with no addition charging equipment"
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I can't understand why they don't use the Sevcon for AC-DC rectification, it is designed to do it at high power. If they replaced the current charger with a box to step down to battery voltage you could charge at up to 6.6KW with probably less weight than the current setup. Its a no brainer to me.
Where did you find this info NoiseBoy? I don't think the Sevcon controller itself is setup to do this as is. Are you sure the FETs can handle universal voltages? Even still, the inductance of the motor windings has to be just so, otherwise the ripple current will be impossible to manage. I was blown away when I found out that Mission was pulling this off, but it's not trivial to turn the controller into a charger. I do hope you're right though!
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The Sevcon is definitely capable of doing it but it would take some clever programming to allow for the voltage ranges as you say, you would still need to step the AC down to below ~110V which isnt difficult. You could always switch in additional inductance when charging. it would still be lighter than carrying a standalone 6KW charger.
IIRC the Sevcon can handle up to 25% of its rated current in Regen so even allowing for duty cycle restraints it would handle 5KW no problem. Controller based charging is the future of EV's imo. Far more practical than DC chargers like Chademo.
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Maybe not a speculation but a wish,
Zero should take care that the bikes are available. I know we had the bikes at Intermot in Köln in October 2012 but it took to long till you could actually test-ride a bike here and if you get something like the FX/XU battery problem, it is a disaster too.
It is not long ago since I could test ride the bike for the first time - and Bike Season is nearly over - your bike will loos value when the new version come out - so why order a new one now?
If Zero don't take more care of things like this people will act with reserve to order next time.
I know it is very hard to develop in time and have tested ...
But Zero has done really good and be the market leader in my opinion no need to push things to the limit; So don't do too much/big steps try to get the bugs out and be on time.
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In Europe Zero is doing a lot better job than Brammo. Bikes that were presented at Intermot are actually available today.
I am still waiting for the Brammo Empulse to arrive, even though I could sit on it already at the same intermot! I already squeezed an extra year out of my Vectrix battery but am now close to buying a Zero.
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If they want to go higher power they will need to change the controller model.
Some already tweaked their zero with the Size 6 660A Sevcon controller and got about 73hp at the wheel wich is awsome.
Apparently Sevcon have also a 150V Size 6 desing but their PDF is mentionning "NOT AVAILLABLE YET contact us"
This might be a great opportunity for Zero to get these and double power of the 2013 wich would be like 660A and let say 36s ( 150V)
meaning a 99kW model ( 133hp ) !!! :twisted:
Doc
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They aren't going to design a new motor just months after finishing their new one Doc. Carry on dreaming though!
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I don't know that the current motor can't handle 150V. However, it's certainly true that the stock motor requires significant additional cooling with the Sevcon Size 6 in a race environment.
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Since Brammo and Zero are using the Sevcon controllers, it doesn't surprise me that they would be developing something larger. However, at this point I would be surprised if someone isn't already planning to use that thing.
I would also be surprised if Zero wasn't already working on another larger motor, but I would be it's unlikely that we would see it this year.
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So Doc, how long can the 73HP zero run at it's maximum output before the temperature light starts blinking? Can you shine some more light on this .....
If they want to go higher power they will need to change the controller model.
Some already tweaked their zero with the Size 6 660A Sevcon controller and got about 73hp at the wheel wich is awsome.
Apparently Sevcon have also a 150V Size 6 desing but their PDF is mentionning "NOT AVAILLABLE YET contact us"
This might be a great opportunity for Zero to get these and double power of the 2013 wich would be like 660A and let say 36s ( 150V)
meaning a 99kW model ( 133hp ) !!! :twisted:
Doc
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About 30 seconds :D
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For me the urge is not the beat power records, but to increase sales ! Current power is good enough for the core market - i beat 95% of the scooters & motorbikes at green lights. And you dont need a BMW1200 power since you'll never travel 400 km with this bike. Also, since the number of models is already quite high for such small volumes, I would not propose controllers options or like - I would rather let specialist do this. Plus, unless there is a high demand for this which is for me no more the case, increasing specs too much on year over the other kills the second hand markert and gives lots of reason not to buy 2014 but wait 2015.
So if I were Zero's chief strategist I would
- reduce costs & increase scale
- improve a bit the power if low cost solutions exists
- improve brakes & tires
- invest hugely on marketing, services, sales
That would be existing & future users' best interest : better have good, reliable product with a real service & second hand market than technology records but low sales & possible financial difficulties when big companies invest in e-bike. It is very probable that, for example, BMW will propose electric scooters or even motorbikes in 2014.
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You make some excellent points vchampain. I know in Continental Europe the best selling bikes are middleweight nakeds like the FZ6 and CBF600, the 2013 Zeros compete very favourably with these in terms of acceleration at least so the market should be happy with the power.
I would like to see faster onboard charging though, as this is what everyone asks. How far does it go and how long is a charge. When I tell them 8 hours I have to explain that its OK because you charge overnight. If I told them 2 hours they would say that is pretty good I'm sure.
Also stock tyres are nasty. Something with a known brand on the sidewall would increase confidence for only a small increase in cost.
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By the way I had a honde 500 before buying a zero ;-)
Another thing I would do is trying to have a 10 kw/2 passengers model (downgrading a but the XU but ensuring a 2 passenger homologation in Europe), so that you can attract car & 125cc scooters drivers (which licence allow to go up to 10 kw for a motobike) & youth to the brand, so that they can later upgrade to more powerful bike.
V
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What I want to see is upgrades for those of us who bought 2013 models! If they improve the charger for 2014 they should sell an upgrade kit for those with 2013 that want the better onboard charger. This would also help buyers feel more confident buying an expensive bike in this rapidly growing EV market.
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What I heard today is that the 2014 Zeros will be mostly new bold graphics (BNG) and some smoothing out of the 2013 model in the areas that you might expect. Perhaps an upgrade to a Gen 6 controller might be offered as an extra-cost option. I don't think you are going to see a big (if any) jump in performance or range. I think it is time for Zero to sit back and polish the bike to fix and bugs and glitches so that their customers won't have all that much to post on the internet. ;) My guess is that ABS might arrive in 2015, but any noticeable improvement in technology won't happen until at least 2016 - if then.
Future advancements will likely depend upon what the competition is doing and what is going on with battery technology that is available "off the shelf" to smaller manufacturers, such as Zero or Brammo.
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Could the Zero SR or Type-R rumor be more about an TTXGP eSS homologated customer race bike for next year, ala Brammo TTX? If they came with Size 6 controllers and were for "Track use only" (and there were enough made) that would make the Size 6 controller legal for certain and maintain the advantage Zeros have over the Brammos in that class for next year.
Oh, boy....
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I don't see why Zero would limit it to a track-only bike. eRR is becoming less relevant, and the eSuperStock has never been truly relevant as an award. Homologation is a non-issue.
The Size 6 controller costs only a little more than the Size 4 - see electricmotorsport (http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_controllers.php), which offers the Size 4 controller for $925 and the Size 6 controller for $1195 (+$270).
The extra cost is all in programming the controller to work reliably, and then perhaps any marginal cost increase associated with a more difficult tuning process, if any.
They can then price-drop the Size 4 bikes by (say) $1000, and offer the Size 6 bikes at 2013 prices. That gets them both a slightly lower entry point - good for bringing new feet in the door - and a higher acceleration / top speed. Suppose they offer 25/98 tooth gearing as stock; 17% reduction in gear advantage, but a ~30% increase in motor torque from the bigger controller means acceleration is markedly improved, and advertised top speeds in the 115-120 mph range .. and possibly a small increase in highway range and sustained top speed.
28/132 tooth gearing options would let the S wheelie like the FX, and perhaps make it the quickest production EV in the world (~3.7s 0-60 = as fast as the Tesla Roadster Sport). Top speed and sustained top speed would both go up a little too.
Now they'd have a Size 6 bike that can out-accelerate the Empulse, outrun the Empulse on the freeway, and offer more range.. at $1000 less than the E1. Unless Brammo drops their prices as well..
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First post!
I was at Zero HQ today doing a test drive and saw a 2014 bike.
New beefy shocks, custom gauge cluster and new color and other cosmetic changes. Looked real nice. No tech details. I asked about a sev 6 upgrade but was told all will be revealed middle of November.
I managed to snap a pic of the 2014 DS and S before I was told "no pictures"
Looks nice.
I'll be waiting for the 2014 model most likely.
BTW I love the 2013 DS I rode. I'm hooked!
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First post!
I was at Zero HQ today doing a test drive and saw a 2014 bike.
New beefy shocks, custom gauge cluster and new color and other cosmetic changes. Looked real nice. No tech details. I asked about a sev 6 upgrade but was told all will be revealed middle of November.
I managed to snap a pic of the 2014 DS and S before I was told "no pictures"
Looks nice.
I'll be waiting for the 2014 model most likely.
BTW I love the 2013 DS I rode. I'm hooked!
A new instrument gauge sounds nice! The bluetooth app is really nice and useful for testing and diagnosing but honestly, I hardly ever use the riding screen. It chews up my phone battery and a cell phone touch screen can have a nasty glare during the day.
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First post!
I was at Zero HQ today doing a test drive and saw a 2014 bike.
New beefy shocks, custom gauge cluster and new color and other cosmetic changes. Looked real nice. No tech details. I asked about a sev 6 upgrade but was told all will be revealed middle of November.
I managed to snap a pic of the 2014 DS and S before I was told "no pictures"
Looks nice.
I'll be waiting for the 2014 model most likely.
BTW I love the 2013 DS I rode. I'm hooked!
Thanks for the new and welcome to the forum. You are the first to announce some details about the 2014 bikes, Thanks!
what about the fairings? are they better for the aerodynamic? is the motor the same 75-7 ( same as the 2013 S-DS ?)
Was it the new TYPE R model ?
Doc
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First post!
I was at Zero HQ today doing a test drive and saw a 2014 bike.
New beefy shocks, custom gauge cluster and new color and other cosmetic changes. Looked real nice. No tech details. I asked about a sev 6 upgrade but was told all will be revealed middle of November.
I managed to snap a pic of the 2014 DS and S before I was told "no pictures"
Looks nice.
I'll be waiting for the 2014 model most likely.
BTW I love the 2013 DS I rode. I'm hooked!
Welcome to the forums, really impressive first post!
Would love to see those two pics of yours! ;)
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Thanks for the new and welcome to the forum. You are the first to announce some details about the 2014 bikes, Thanks!
what about the fairings? are they better for the aerodynamic? is the motor the same 75-7 ( same as the 2013 S-DS ?)
Was it the new TYPE R model ?
Doc
I had this thread in mind when I was asking the rep questions and I did ask about fairings. He did not deny the possibility of something like this for 2014.
No to other technical details were revealed.
Would love to see those two pics of yours! ;)
They are blurry and fuzzy though... ;)
The bike looks very similar, the battery cowling looks a lot nicer and not so shiny, the "tank" looks the same. Headlights, same. Mainly looks like a freshening/refinement of the 2013. The color I saw was the "classic" color. Looked great.
There's a switch now on the handle bar to control "econ/sport" mode on the fly. No sure if this is new as I'm not super familiar with the bikes. But it was a feature specifically pointed out to me as "look at this!".
I'm looking forward to getting my Zero!
Thanks for the welcome BTW! I've found a lot of great info on the is site.
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Wow! On the 2014, a switch on the handle bar for SPORT / ECO selection. Hmmm........that sounds familiar. Where have I seen that before.
Oh, yeah, my 2012 DS. ;D
Trikester
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Wow! On the 2014, a switch on the handle bar for SPORT / ECO selection. Hmmm........that sounds familiar. Where have I seen that before.
Oh, yeah, my 2012 DS. ;D
Trikester
Oh, I thought it was a new feature. My bad. :D
I was wondering why the rep pointed it out with such enthusiasm...
Wait a minute yours looks a little different.
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Wow! On the 2014, a switch on the handle bar for SPORT / ECO selection. Hmmm........that sounds familiar. Where have I seen that before.
Oh, yeah, my 2012 DS. ;D
Trikester
Oh, I thought it was a new feature. My bad. :D
I was wondering why the rep pointed it out with such enthusiasm...
Wait a minute yours looks a little different.
Trikester made that switch himself. I always thought i would be more likely to switch into eco mode if the switch was on the bars. As it is I stay in sport all the time.
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I think Olav was speaking "tongue-in-cheek". :D
However, I had also done this mod on my 2013 FX but now I've taken it off. I've found that with the new ability to program the ECO mode I didn't use it.
I now have ECO programmed for max torque, max speed, minimum regen with brake light off, maximum regen with brake light on. This allows as much free coasting as I can get with the fixed SPORT regen that we can't reduce (minimum ECO regen is the same as minimum SPORT regen). Then I pull the front brake lever just enough, without applying the mechanical brake, to turn on the brake light and activate maximum regen braking. Because this works well for all of the types of riding I do (pavement & dirt) I just leave it in ECO all the time now. I have the e-trike set up the same way.
TRIKESTER's THEORY OF EFFICIENT DOWNHILL OPERATION: 8)
If descending a slope where no braking is needed, free coasting is more efficient than any regen back to the battery because any current generated by the motor will also have some IR losses associated with it (added to the the free coasting losses).
If descending a slope where additional deceleration is needed then it is more efficient to have regen returning energy to the battery, than to dissipate that energy in mechanical brakes.
Therefore: Free coasting = use no regen. Slowing = use regen, no mechanical brake activation unless regen is not slowing enough. :o
Simple stuff - huh?
Trikester
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TRIKESTER's THEORY OF EFFICIENT DOWNHILL OPERATION: 8)
If descending a slope where no braking is needed, free coasting is more efficient than any regen back to the battery because any current generated by the motor will also have some IR losses associated with it (added to the the free coasting losses).
If descending a slope where additional deceleration is needed then it is more efficient to have regen returning energy to the battery, than to dissipate that energy in mechanical brakes.
Therefore: Free coasting = use no regen. Slowing = use regen, no mechanical brake activation unless regen is not slowing enough. :o
I 100% agree with that, the deceleration regen (just like normal compression of gas motorcycle) is not as efficient as better to free coastin foe to mechanic to electric to mechanic energy conversion loss
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I don't see why Zero would limit it to a track-only bike. eRR is becoming less relevant, and the eSuperStock has never been truly relevant as an award. Homologation is a non-issue.
The Size 6 controller costs only a little more than the Size 4 - see electricmotorsport (http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts_controllers.php), which offers the Size 4 controller for $925 and the Size 6 controller for $1195 (+$270).
The extra cost is all in programming the controller to work reliably, and then perhaps any marginal cost increase associated with a more difficult tuning process, if any.
They can then price-drop the Size 4 bikes by (say) $1000, and offer the Size 6 bikes at 2013 prices. That gets them both a slightly lower entry point - good for bringing new feet in the door - and a higher acceleration / top speed. Suppose they offer 25/98 tooth gearing as stock; 17% reduction in gear advantage, but a ~30% increase in motor torque from the bigger controller means acceleration is markedly improved, and advertised top speeds in the 115-120 mph range .. and possibly a small increase in highway range and sustained top speed.
28/132 tooth gearing options would let the S wheelie like the FX, and perhaps make it the quickest production EV in the world (~3.7s 0-60 = as fast as the Tesla Roadster Sport). Top speed and sustained top speed would both go up a little too.
Now they'd have a Size 6 bike that can out-accelerate the Empulse, outrun the Empulse on the freeway, and offer more range.. at $1000 less than the E1. Unless Brammo drops their prices as well..
First I have to take a bit of exception to the eRR being irrelevant, naturally. The best and most exciting part of the racing this year in the US was the battle between everyone who wasn't on an Empulse RR, which was most of the field. The eSS hasn't been really relevant, but bikes that fit that label have provided the best racing in the US for the past two years, and have brought new teams to the sport both here and in Europe. Even though eSS hasn't been it's own class or even officially recognized it has generated a whole lot of conversation. Enough so Parker ponied up for some awards of their own fruition. Now, next year the TTXGP is set to have their own eSS series in the US and was using this year to let teams do their thing and see if they couldn't get an actual better idea for a rules package. It will be a rules package free for any racing organization to adopt, such as the AFM, CCS, etc.. Brammo has had conversations with AFM racers and others about the TTX. Having a pre-packaged track bike just makes sense with the AFM and M1GP bringing elmotos into the fold, and if the Ess thing takes off and club series all over the country adopt the rule package. Especially if you want to sell it to someone who doesn't know electricity. and doesn't want to know. They just want to go race.
As far as track only, I was simply not making assumptions. But it seems to me that if the Zero really felt a Size 6 controller was was a viable thing to bring to market the 2013s would have come with it and it would actually have been an Empulse killer.
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Less relevant is not the same as irrelevant. I agree that the production-based battles in the US races were the most compelling electric racing this year.
However. Two US races in 2013? Empulse RRs doing parade laps waiting for competition to show? (okay, hyperbole .. Eboz and Turpin definitely are racing each other) Parker did try to offer a eSS award, until they were told to shove it by the FIM. Late notification to teams, high entry fees, small grid sizes?
Yeah, hard to see why there appears to be more interest in AFM than eRR.
Here's my tinfoil hat theories on no Size 6 this year:
1. If Zero largely carries over the 2013 bikes into 2014, Size 6 gives something to write about in 2014 / persuade 2013 owners to upgrade rather than just Bold New Graphics.
2. Zero spent some time this year moving into their new manufacturing facility, and bikes are (reportedly) on backorder now. Offering a substantially more attractive bike this year probably would not have meant more sales. However, in 2014 when they have the manufacturing capacity .. suppose the 2014 Zero S is $12000 ZF8.5, $14000 ZF11.4, +$1000 Size 6. I bet they would sell a few bikes .. and most of them Size 6. (Even though without the EV federal rebate, prices would be somewhat the same)
3. Hollywood Electrics is their biggest dealer, by far. Suppose an agreement was made between Zero and Hollywood Electrics to offer the Size 6 as a semi-secret upgrade. Hollywood Electrics gets a little extra cash, Zero gets some real-world development miles and a year of riding on Size 6 controllers (maybe they feel a little burned by Size 4 glitches?).
Remember when Luke on elmoto said something to the effect of Zero had spent $100k in labor getting the Size 4 working properly with the 2012 bikes? Harlan's a smart guy, if any individual could get the Size 6 controller working it'd be him, but I don't think the Size 6 is exactly a drop-in replacement.
4. Brammo started selling the Empulse R in Dec 2012, and the E1 in spring 2013. If Zero dropped a Size 6 into their 2013 bikes, the Empulse would be DOA (imo), or at least a very hard sell. Whatever acrimony may exist between the two companies - and certainly there are some individuals at Zero that feel it - I suspect / hope they recognize that killing Brammo does not make a stronger EV marketplace. (maybe my idealism is showing? Zero is a business, after all)
1 & 2 are plausible to me, 3 & 4 are kind of out there. In truth it may be none of these.
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Speaking of racing, I see that BrammoBrian, Brammo's Director of Development, has created a poll on the Brammo Owners website asking how the forum members feel about racing electric motorcycles next year. The poll even includes an option to dump racing and spend your time on building and developing production street bikes. That indicates to me that Brammo is wondering if racing is worth the cost, time and effort, from a business point of view. This would not be the first motorcycle or automotive company to ask themselves that question. Actually, just about every vehicle manufacturer (well, maybe not bus builders) probably ask themselves that question almost every year.
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2. Zero spent some time this year moving into their new manufacturing facility, and bikes are (reportedly) on backorder now. Offering a substantially more attractive bike this year probably would not have meant more sales. However, in 2014 when they have the manufacturing capacity .. suppose the 2014 Zero S is $12000 ZF8.5, $14000 ZF11.4, +$1000 Size 6. I bet they would sell a few bikes .. and most of them Size 6. (Even though without the EV federal rebate, prices would be somewhat the same)
I have never seen a bike manufacturer drop the price of their bikes year on year. More likely the other way around!
So 8.5 will more likely be 14500 and 11.4 16500
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Brammo did it with their Enertia, from $11995 mid 2008 to $7995 mid 2009 iirc.
Zero has not done this within a line, directly.
You can make some comparisons across years and lines; for example, the 2010 S is somewhat similar to the 2013 XU ZF2.8; the XU has comparable range and significantly more power, and costs $2000 less.
However, within the lines Zero has always kept the price steady or slowly bumped it.
XU has gone from $7695 to $7995.
S has gone from $9995 to $11495/$13995 to $13995/$15995.
They've periodically provided price drops in form of the gas clunker rebate last year. This is effectively a price cut to reduce inventory.
However, Zero has also never kept the bikes the same year over year. They could certainly bundle in the Size 6 as standard and keep the prices the same. We'll find out soon.
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As near as I can tell, most of the IC motorcycle manufacturers are all raising their prices on existing models now that the "recession" seems to be easing a bit. However, when introducing new bikes, Honda, and to some extent Yamaha, are reducing their prices on new models that seem to have been designed during the Great Recession. They have done this either by designing "world" bikes and manufacturing them in Asian countries other than Japan, or by going over a new model part by part to find areas where manufacturing costs can be reduced - and then manufacturing them in low-overhead countries. I don't think Zero has that kind of flexibility. My guess is that Zero will keep prices the same and make a little less profit on each unit. They are pretty much constrained by the cost of their individual parts, which are all manufactured by outside suppliers and I would think that their volume just isn't enough to force their suppliers to cut the price of their parts.
With the federal tax credit likely going away for good, it could be a tough year for electric motorcycle sales to anyone who isn't really into the technology and willing to pay a premium price.
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I don't know how much of the development costs of the 2013 bikes was financed by outside investors and how much was financed by sales of the 2013 bikes.
If the 2014 bikes are little different, then their development cost is paid for - therefore Zero COULD (but perhaps may not) drop the price accordingly.
The big barrier for EV motorcycles, as with EV cars, is cost. Unfortunately motorcycles are already a somewhat niche market; an EV like the LEAF that captures a fraction of a percent of the total market will still sell tens of thousands of units per year, and reap scaling benefits accordingly. An EV motorcycle manufacturer that captures a fraction of a percent of the motorcycle market may not even reach a thousand sales per year.
Hand-waving ahead. Apologies if this is belaboring the point.
Suppose Zero considers several different MSRP.
Let's say $13995 is the base MSRP, $2500 margin after materials, labor, shipping, estimated support costs, dealer fees, etc.
At $13995 they might sell 500 bikes. Total margin = 500 * $2500 = $1.25M.
At $12995 they might sell 800 bikes. Total margin = 800 * $1500 = $1.2M.
At $12495 they might sell 1000 bikes. Total margin = 1000 * $1000 = $1M.
At $11995 they might sell 1500 bikes. Total margin = 1500 * $500 = $750k.
At $11495 they might sell 2000 bikes. Total margin = 2000 * $0 = $0.
Obviously I'm making these numbers up, Zero has presumably done their market research and can put some less speculative numbers out there.
So, stupid for them to price the bikes at anything but $13995, right?
However, a couple of things:
1. At thousand-unit quantities, Zero will get some price breaks on components. I don't know how extensive these price breaks will be. Point is that the base cost of the bike is not constant, it will be dependent upon volume. So maybe at the 2000 unit/year level their actual margin at the $11495 price point is $1000 = $2M total margin.
2. Zero just moved into a much larger facility. They might not have been able to build 2000 '13 bikes in the first part of this year even if market demand existed. So their prices may have been set to maximize profit given a fixed quantity of bikes they could produce. In 2014 they will be able to produce a significantly larger quantity.
A Size 6 controller and BNG will get them attention, but it will not get them significantly higher sales.
3. Zero needs to continue building out their dealer network, and that means they need to be able to tell them they will be able to sell product. Selling 1 or 2 bikes at $500 dealer cut won't keep a dealer's lights on for long.
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Protomech, you mentioned that Zero has moved into a larger facility. I hadn't heard about that before. Can you provide a few details, such as where they are currently located and how big the building is? Is there a link to the story? It might make for a nice day trip if they are still in the Santa Cruz area. When I was at the factory last December, they did look pretty cramped and I can see how a larger plant would be a big help. In particular, the parts and assembly areas were nowhere as big as what I have seen in photos of the Brammo factory.
When I mentioned my interest in purchasing a 2014 Zero next year, my dealer asked if I would like to put down a $1000 deposit so that I could be the first person on my block to own an 2014. I told her, nice try, but I have learned my lesson about being the first to try a new model vehicle, having done so with several BMW motorcycles in the past and become their quality control test rider. ::) All I need to do is to hold out for a few months after the 2014's are introduced. ;)
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They apparently moved back on March 31. So this isn't exactly recent news (and I may have misstated its significance).
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=416056008490209 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=416056008490209)
http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/article/zero-motorcycles-moves-larger-hq-manufacturing-facility (http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/article/zero-motorcycles-moves-larger-hq-manufacturing-facility)
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They apparently moved back on March 31. So this isn't exactly recent news (and I may have misstated its significance).
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=416056008490209 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=416056008490209)
http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/article/zero-motorcycles-moves-larger-hq-manufacturing-facility (http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/article/zero-motorcycles-moves-larger-hq-manufacturing-facility)
Thanks. As usual, I am way behind the times. Good thing I didn't try to visit the factory again. ::)
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At current pricing levels EV's have to be a premium product. You can't sell a $30k+ vehicle to people that usually drive base model cars and bikes, because they cant afford them. But an executive that can afford that money wants climate control, electric seats and touch screen satnav. I see this as the reason that things like the Peugeot iOn flop and the Model S does so well, Tesla nailed their target market by building something that is expensive, but outperforms everything else on the road.
In conclusion, leave prices as they are but build the bikes better as the batteries get cheaper.
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Yes, very true NoiseBoy. And keeping prices the same but making it nicer has certainly been Zero's refrain for a while now.
The Size 6 Zero S with the 2013 gearing should be about as fast as the FX .. ie able to wheelie on demand up to 50 mph or so. It should also be able to beat virtually any gas-powered vehicle on two wheels or four wheels to 60 mph if they're not prepared, ie in launch control mode. So street performance should be covered, as long as you don't care about 150+ mph blasts on "private roads".
The premium sportbike market seems to consist of top speed epeen contests. I don't think Zero can compete there without a significantly more powerful drive system and an aero fairing, which probably are not in the cards for 2014.
In order to sell the bike as a premium product, all of the cheap components have to go. Tires, display, mirrors, seat, suspension, brakes. They already have the LED taillamp, now they need a LED headlamp up front. Styling needs to improve somehow - tough to do with a big black box in the center.
Standard CHAdeMO would also be a nice premium feature. Nissan is preparing to roll out CHAdeMO chargers at 600 of their US dealers, so in a year's time CHAdeMO would provide for relatively easy touring on a ZF11.4 Zero.
We've mostly been talking about the S here, which is indeed Zero's volume seller. What about the DS? And the smaller FX, XU, MX bikes? I can't really think of much to improve for the X-lineup other than a faster charger .. they should have at least the 1.3 kW charger from the S-lineup. A heavy, high-power J1772 charger is probably not necessary for these bikes (or CHAdeMO..)
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It would probably be good sense to drop the MX entirely and keep the FX fairly road focused, with KTM waiting in the wings to launch an electric enduro which Zero will never compete with.
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I guess it depends on what type of motorcycle you are trying to build when making design choices. Like a more practical commuter, a worthy off road bike, a dual sport, a high power bike where 0-60 times are the measurement of interest, sport touring, and the list goes on. The bike design is just 1 aspect, another very important aspect is reliability.
Taking the point of view of a potential buyer interested in a dual sport and off road. I do online research and find the FX power should be enough, but suspension, weight, and reliability is not good enough. You can never have too much range, and it varies on the type of use, so it seems to be difficult to know if it is enough. It does appear the existing range makes the bike usable in many situations off road. If used in sand with a paddle tire, the range would probably not be good enough.
So based on that, I hope Zero puts a lot of focus on reliability, suspension, and weight reduction for the FX. I hear the S is the largest selling model but I am interested in the FX not the S. Maybe they should team up with KTM who has experience with suspension and off road handling, but does not think their electric drivetrain is good enough.
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KTM electric drive train is 300V battery and brushless synchronous motor totally sealed, its plenty good enough.
http://www.ktm.com/gb/freeride/freeride-e/highlights.html#?custom=true (http://www.ktm.com/gb/freeride/freeride-e/highlights.html#?custom=true)
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I ride my FX mostly on dirt and in desert riding I also have many sandy areas. Typically I have range of 70 to 80 miles which for me is plenty of rough terrain riding for one day, so I don't have any issues with the range (see my NoCal & Utah ride data). I would not like to see any more focus on street riding for the FX, as has been suggested, and no additional weight increase for a bigger battery and increased range. The FX is a decent dirt bike now so any degradation in performance there, to accommodate street riding, would be a negative in my book. Actually it is good on the street now but probably doesn't have the range many street riders would like to have.
Dual-sport bikes are for those who want more street than dirt and Zero already has a selection of those. I would like to see the changes in the FX go toward lighter weight while maintaining the range it has now.
Trikester
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KTM electric drive train is 300V battery and brushless synchronous motor totally sealed, its plenty good enough.
http://www.ktm.com/gb/freeride/freeride-e/highlights.html#?custom=true (http://www.ktm.com/gb/freeride/freeride-e/highlights.html#?custom=true)
How are they building a 300V battery that small with lithium-ion? Must be pulling quite high C.
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There is a KTM forum (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?board=20.0) for this kind of topics... =P
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Rumor is a 15kWh battery option on the 2014 models.
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Rumor is a 15kWh battery option on the 2014 models.
I like that rumor. :)
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Hm.. yes I like the idea of a 15 kWh pack.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2824.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2824.0)
The only caveat to a 15 kWh pack built from ~100V modules in parallel - ie Zero's current approach to building large batteries - is that CHAdeMO charge power will not increase, and a 95% CHAdeMO charge will take approximately 90 minutes.
However, Zero could build an AC charger that could charge from two J1772 at once, like Terry's bike. This would give excellent touring capabilities, particularly if paired with an aerodynamic fairing.
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Was just hanging around at the Zero Homepage.
If you look to the EICM Motorcycle Show you can ask for test-riding ALL models also the MX and X?.
This will not be a 100% sign the MX will be available again but maybe?
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"Wide range of design" along with "improved performance" to me means bigger battery option, faster top speed, longer range, and not dropping models and maybe even adding a race bike. Then they would have something for everyone.
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This is a late reply to Protomech I know. As far as a More powerful Zero trumping an Empulse in sale. Yes I Size 6 controlled lightweight Zero S would take a big bite it wouldn't take all the sales. There plenty of riders like myself who look at the Zero S's suspension, wheels, tire, and overall stance and say no thank you as we want a proper sportbike. That is not a Zero S. A Zero S is the better commuter and is sporty. A great bike and perfect for many, many people. But until Zero makes a proper sportbike I don't think the Empulse is in peril.
But that makes me wonder about all of the Empulse and Zero S comparisons. If you properly compare each bike to it's ICE twin, I don't think they'd show up in the same comparison test. It makes me wonder why anyone at Zero or Brammo, or dealerships, or any of us would invest too much in comparisons between the two bikes. Other than being electric, they're not that comparable. Yes they are close, but truly are for different riders. IMHO anyway. Back to the business talk.
Richard230. As far as Brammo not going racing. I have had many interviews with Brian and got to know him, and he enjoys my website because it is bench racing talk. I feel confident in saying he only put the no racing option up to be fair and to help gauge the response he was getting. Actually, I think any decent survey has to have an option like that to be considered accurate. If you have listened to my interviews with him you will know how much R&D they get from their racing program. And Parker is right there with them. I can't give away too much but at least one important person at Parker is REALLY into the racing. At this point I think their motto is, "Don't care if the racers don't need/want more power. We're giving it to them." The day Brammo ends their racing program is the day they aren't Brammo anymore. Just a Polaris subsidiary. But watch closely because I think Brammo's racing program is becoming a racing program. They have their own official name now. Hopefully this will lead them to be able to pursue their own funding and not be so dependent on Brammo proper. Zero has a different approach to this but still gets a lot from their racing. The Size 6 controller subject would be a moot point if not for the racing this year and Hollywood Electric's custom.
Sorry if I hijacked things a bit. I should be out riding my MTB, but rain put an end to that.
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I am also sure that Brammo will continue to race also, esbk.co. When I spoke with Craig, he was very enthusiastic about racing and he is still running the company. However, from a sales and business standpoint, it is an interesting question if racing is worth the cost and effort and I thought that Brian's poll was worth discussing as every vehicle manufacturer must put a lot of thought into this question. However, it is very unusual that a vehicle company asks that, or any, question and requests input on an on-line forum. All of the major motorcycle manufacturers come and go and are here and there every year when it comes to racing. Except maybe Ducati. I think they have never quit racing, even for a year. I hear that BMW is pulling the plug on their racing program this year, BTW. They got whatever they wanted out of their racing program and are now moving on - to who knows what?
I would be very surprised to see Zero go head-to-head with Brammo in a racing program. (I don't think they want to spend the money.) I think they will continue to run modified production bikes with their staff and a few enthusiastic customers and dealers as a method of testing the bike parts in a way that can't be done on the street.
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Ive heard strong rumours that there is a 70hp RS model for 2014 but don't know any more than that. Given that the UK staff have little to lose from spilling the beans I'd say there is a good chance its true.
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Well, we can at least enjoy the silly 404 page that Zero has, while refreshing the http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-rs/ (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-rs/) page. ;)
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1. I sincerely hope Zero focuses on range rather than nonessentials like ABS
2. The crowd at Indy was more animated during the electric race than during MotoGP (including me)
3. The ONLY justification for a transmission on an ebike IMHO is for racing
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I just returned from the Progressive "International" Motorcycle Show and there wasn't an electric vehicle to be found - not even a kid's electric bike like last year. :( The only thing moving under electric power at the show was this.
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I just returned from the Progressive "International" Motorcycle Show and there wasn't an electric vehicle to be found - not even a kid's electric bike like last year. :( The only thing moving under electric power at the show was this.
No OSETs??
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My dealer has seen the 2014 models this week at a French Zero presentation. But he won't say a word even under hard torture ! Grrrr......
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I just returned from the Progressive "International" Motorcycle Show and there wasn't an electric vehicle to be found - not even a kid's electric bike like last year. :( The only thing moving under electric power at the show was this.
No OSETs??
No OSETs. :(
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This guy claims to have a pic of a 2014 DS.
"I'm going to wait for the 2014 version to come out mid November because I happen to be there when there was a 2014 Zero DS just sitting in the "show room". It had new shocks, new gauge cluster, new battery cowling, new other stuff. The rep didn't give me any technical details as to what has been improved upon but what I saw I liked. There's a picture of a while (white?) Zero 2014 DS."
http://firearmsandtraining.blogspot.com/2013/10/electric-motorcycle-test-drive-zero-ds.html (http://firearmsandtraining.blogspot.com/2013/10/electric-motorcycle-test-drive-zero-ds.html)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-or2R0tYJvTk/UlnZ8WqPKfI/AAAAAAAAChk/Wj1sTbCay_o/s1600/photo+2-8.JPG)
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That picture was posted before. Looks like the new side panels are directing air back on to the controller heatsink.
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Motorcycle.com is getting excited about what the new 2014 Zeros might bring to the market. They expect much more power and bigger batteries. I think they need to read this forum more. ::) ;)
http://www.motorcycle.com/top10/top-10-new-motorcycles-watch-eicma.html/3 (http://www.motorcycle.com/top10/top-10-new-motorcycles-watch-eicma.html/3)
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Here's the 2014 FX for posterity.
Notice there are a lot of similarities between the two.
(http://www.motoplus.nl/Frontend/content/images/12032)
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This quote is interesting "But it’s not just a new sportbike in the pipeline, as we’re told there’s also been a focus on the functionality and performance to the current lineup." I find it unlikely that Zero could keep a completely new model secret but the performance improvement is suggesting a size 6 or similar upgrade?
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On the 2014 white DS picture I also reconize as stated somewhere else the Continental ContiEscape tire.
A little thread on this tire to see the pictures (sorry the text is in french):http://www.super-tenere.org/t656-continental-escape
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Also in the 2014 white DS picture there is a 2014 black S behind it.
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Tomorrow is THE day :)
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We'll get to crown the "King" of the model speculators!
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I want to guess too. I say an optional 14.1 ZF battery, optional ABS, return of the cooling fan, and larger controller meaning higher sustained speed in the S model.
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I want to guess too. I say an optional 14.1 ZF battery, optional ABS, return of the cooling fan, and larger controller meaning higher sustained speed in the S model.
How long before people start trying to hack the Gen4 Size 8 controllers onto the bike... ;) /jk
http://www.sevcon.com/ac-controllers/gen-4-size-8.aspx (http://www.sevcon.com/ac-controllers/gen-4-size-8.aspx)
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My guess is a 14.3 battery, and, going out on a limb, an entirely new instrument cluster. Possibly Size-6 as an aftermarket option like CHaDeMO was on the 2013, however I reckon that level 2 charging might come as standard on the 14.3 model...
That's my hat in the ring.
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I will guess at a larger optional battery as said, but definitely changes to suspension and instrument cluster. Also some kind of integrated charging option i.e. extra chargers in luggage that mounts on the bike. Im also expecting a Zero RS with the size 6 controller but it will be limited edition, something like 100 bikes.
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I will guess at a larger optional battery as said, but definitely changes to suspension and instrument cluster. Also some kind of integrated charging option i.e. extra chargers in luggage that mounts on the bike. Im also expecting a Zero RS with the size 6 controller but it will be limited edition, something like 100 bikes.
No need to guess anymore ;) http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/ (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/)
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Lot's of whishes has been granted: suspension, tires, possible to carry passenger on FX, brand new R-version of the S..
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Interesting, the XU is gone. The Power-tank concept is brilliant. 106ft lb torque..... WOW.
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I was surprised to see both the XU and MX missing.... I know that MX sales were really small but the XU seemed to have a following.
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I was surprised to see both the XU and MX missing.... I know that MX sales were really small but the XU seemed to have a following.
I'm guessing the FX can be converted to MX specs for those small amount of customers...
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Are they really missing, or not just updated this year? I recon they will be revamped for 2015 instead. I think both MX and XU makes sense in the model program.
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Are they really missing, or not just updated this year? I recon they will be revamped for 2015 instead. I think both MX and XU makes sense in the model program.
They are missing from the website anyway...
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Are they really missing, or not just updated this year? I recon they will be revamped for 2015 instead. I think both MX and XU makes sense in the model program.
They are missing from the website anyway...
From a press release:
"After conducting market research and listening to customers, Zero has chosen to refine the consumer product line to three core models: the Zero S, Zero DS and Zero FX."
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Are they really missing, or not just updated this year? I recon they will be revamped for 2015 instead. I think both MX and XU makes sense in the model program.
They are missing from the website anyway...
From a press release:
"After conducting market research and listening to customers, Zero has chosen to refine the consumer product line to three core models: the Zero S, Zero DS and Zero FX."
That make good marketing sense to me and will simplify parts availability.
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Yeah, I noticed the missing MX and XU models.
Are e-moto's really "toys for the rich"?
I'm curious because (1) Colorado dropped it's $6000 tax rebate for emoto's and the dealer told me it has had no impact on sales. (2) I recently visited the Zero factory and was told that the typical Zero owner views price as a "minor concern". And (3) Zero's 2014 lineup is all about high-end (and high-price).
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Looks like not much change in the 2014 FX. That makes me happy - I won't be tempted to buy a fourth Zero. I do like the new dash however, I wonder if i can upgrade that part?
Nice to know I can continue to enjoy riding my 2013 FX without feeling like I'm on a dinosaur. ;)
Also a new situation for me - I have to decide each time if I want to ride my FX or my e-Trike. I guess that's a good problem to have!
See photo.
Trikester
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I imagine the new dash is CAN based so I don't see why not, i'm sure you could fab up a mounting bracket in no time.
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Yeah, I noticed the missing MX and XU models.
Are e-moto's really "toys for the rich"?
I'm curious because (1) Colorado dropped it's $6000 tax rebate for emoto's and the dealer told me it has had no impact on sales. (2) I recently visited the Zero factory and was told that the typical Zero owner views price as a "minor concern". And (3) Zero's 2014 lineup is all about high-end (and high-price).
I'd think the 'toys for the rich' may be true today but in a couple of years, all you pioneers - the Zero riders of today, have paved the road for a bigger market. Then, the XU will (would) make very much sense for the mass market and might become their most selling model.
The electric motorcycle scene is still very young and attracts most early-adopters and people with genuine interest in electrics. This will change (already is) and if Zero is expecting this attitude 'price is not an issue' they will see market shares taken overnight when other brands release their (cheaper) electric bike.
Why buy a expensive Zero if you can get a cheaper electric Honda/Suz/Kaw/ - Most people I talk to only know the Zero brand because I talk of it all the time..
Well... speculations from my point of view of course...
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Yeah, I noticed the missing MX and XU models.
Are e-moto's really "toys for the rich"?
I'm curious because (1) Colorado dropped it's $6000 tax rebate for emoto's and the dealer told me it has had no impact on sales. (2) I recently visited the Zero factory and was told that the typical Zero owner views price as a "minor concern". And (3) Zero's 2014 lineup is all about high-end (and high-price).
I'd think the 'toys for the rich' may be true today but in a couple of years, all you pioneers - the Zero riders of today, have paved the road for a bigger market. Then, the XU will (would) make very much sense for the mass market and might become their most selling model.
The electric motorcycle scene is still very young and attracts most early-adopters and people with genuine interest in electrics. This will change (already is) and if Zero is expecting this attitude 'price is not an issue' they will see market shares taken overnight when other brands release their (cheaper) electric bike.
Why buy a expensive Zero if you can get a cheaper electric Honda/Suz/Kaw/ - Most people I talk to only know the Zero brand because I talk of it all the time..
Well... speculations from my point of view of course...
mate, good speculations. but the biggies on the ICE bikes face the Kodak chemical film dilemma ... (remember there was a Kodak company ignoring digital photography...).
They cannibalise their ICE sales if the focus on electrics. yet alone their R&D etc. (And I work for now one of the traditionals - not in another industry) will have a HARD TIME to really move to new tech.
bottom line. both techs will have a place in future.
my personal opinion is that I sold all my ICE bikes as they are the worst for environment that can be. and I love my Zero (now old but the newest one could get in OZ).....
so my 2cents and WAKE UP Australia and kick arse of that carbon heavy politics....