ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: protomech on May 14, 2012, 12:53:56 AM
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One of the promises of electric bikes is low operational costs. Electricity is pretty cheap everywhere - even in CA's 30-40 cent/kWh tier, you're looking at 3-4 cents per mile.
The other big operational cost is repairs and maintenance. I'm like to consolidate everyone's experience with their bikes.
My 2012 S is getting close to 2k miles. About a week ago the BMS board got damp after a wet ride and disabled the throttle. After a tow and overnight sit in the garage it has been fine. The bike has silently disabled the throttle on one occasion when turning the bike on, but a power cycle restored throttle functionality.
2012/03 0 miles, purchased
2012/05 1700 miles, BMS fault after damp ride. Towed it home, dried overnight and fine since.
Edit: I'm going to update my post from time to time with mileage and observations.
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I'm around 7500 on my 2011 Zero S and have only had one issue, I fried my contactor in the first 3K miles. Not sure what the cause was, but it was waranteed. It had cut out on me once while riding on the highway, much like a traditional bike, I pulled off and hit the back of the battery pack a few times, got back on and rode home.
I would say over all that issue and the cost of repair ( warranted, so free ) is way cheaper than a traditional bike, with nothing more than the same inconvenience than a normal bike stalling out. No oil changes so far ;) and no valve adjustments, no chain breaking/stretching... .... yeah way cheaper
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2012 S ZF6: 450 miles, 16 days. No rain rides, but was out yesterday in 40F weather! I spent $16 on mirror extenders. Outside of that, so good so far.
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I bought a demo 2011 with 1000 mi. on it at the time. I have put 1700 more miles on it. No problems so far.
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2012 DS ZF9, 1,450 miles. Got the "glitch" once on a highway, got the software upgraded and after that no issues. Paid $50 for 600 mile maintenance.
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2012 ZF9 Zero S with 1100 miles so far (I am also riding four other IC motorcycles at least once a week). Two stalling issues early -on at a stop, bike fixed by Zero and it has run perfectly ever since. I perform my own chassis servicing and so far have not had to take it to my dealer. Servicing has amounted to checking belt tension. washing and waxing and keeping the tires inflated. :)
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2012 Zero DS, 412 miles. Developed right fork seal leak at about 408 miles. Still waiting on replacement seals to get to my dealer, which is a 3.5 hour trip away from where I live. Bike is out of commission at the moment, as I don't want to ride all the oil out of the fork and do more serious damage.
It's been a little over a week since I called and reported the issue and the seals were ordered. Funny thing is, the entire bike shipped originally from Zero to the dealer in Austin, TX in well under a week.
I truly hope this is an anomaly, as I enjoy the bike, but if I end up having to haul it to Austin several times a year, I'll be riding something else.
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My case is a kind of particular one...Got a ZF9 demo bike for a few weeks (which I'm very grateful to the Spanish dealer), and when I got the new bike around a week ago...
- The left handle control (riding position) has a bad position -controls too low- which could not be corrected without modifying the bar position (I suspect the hole that fixes the control was made too low)
- The front fork has leakings
- The rear suspension spring scratches the axle
- The rear brake foot pedal spring makes a cranky noise (an spacer has to be added to remove the noise)
- The brake pads are too hard (after more than 100 miles you cannot stop the bike safely) - Everybody has reported this -
- The motor gets too hot just driving at 50 MPH (this was not the case in the demo unit).
- The battery gauge "gets a bar back" -recovers- after I stop the bike for a few minutes (this was not the case in the demo bike)
Quite honestly, It's not been a nice start with the new bike...the demo one worked perfectly.
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Lipo423, that sounds like Zero put the "B" team on the factory floor when building your bike. I sure hope you can resolve these problems. They would drive me nuts - especially considering the cost of the bike. When I pay that kind of money (as I have for my two BMW motorcycles) I really expect a high level of build quality - which is not something that you always get with BMW products, either.
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The only time I've seen the motor temperature indicator light up is when I pushed the bike to 84-85 mph for about 4 miles, WOT. I've never seen it light up outside that one time.
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- The front fork has leakings
Mine, too. Not riding it at the moment due to this :(
- The battery gauge "gets a bar back" -recovers- after I stop the bike for a few minutes (this was not the case in the demo bike)
You know, I could have sworn I saw mine do this a couple times, though in my case the gauge was down when riding 55 mph+ and recovered a couple bars a second or two after I stopped. I just figured it was the BMS being fooled by a little voltage sag when I was at speed. I wasn't sure it had happened, as I prefer to watch the road rather than my battery gauge while riding, but I didn't dismiss it, either. I just made a mental note to check charge at rest rather than in motion.
I haven't had your other issues, though (I rode 40 miles at 70 mph in two 20-mile stretches with no motor overheating). I hope you can get them fixed soon.
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Thanks for your support guys.
As Richard pointed out, when you pay big $$$ you expect premium quality, and premium performance...
I'm a positive guy, so I hope they will react accordingly.
The Spanish dealer GM has contacted me today...
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Speaking of the Zero's brakes, my bike has 1100 miles on the clock now and today while I was riding around, it seemed like the brakes were a lot more powerful than they had been when the bike was new. I would say that their current performance is equal to my daughter's 2003 Ninja 250 and better than her 1981 BMW R650LS, with its double-disc front brake and drum rear brake. Even my rear brake seems to be better than it used to be. Maybe the Hayes pads just need a long break-in period. The front lever is still pretty far from the bar and you do have to squeeze harder than most modern motorcycle brakes, but they seem to be good enough for me now and short emergency stops no longer generate a pucker-factor.
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Quite honestly, It's not been a nice start with the new bike...the demo one worked perfectly.
Can you trade in your "lemon" bike for the demo model?
Lipo423, CliC and sgmdudley have now all reported premature front fork seal issues. Hmmm.
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That's exactly what I said >:( Bring me back the demo one!!!
I had "Zero" issues on that one (except the brakes performance which is common in all of them).
I have to say in Zero's favour, that the throttle response is a bit faster on the new one...
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I don't want to give a negative impression of Zero, as I would love to see them succeed, but I've had a few issues with the new bike (2012 ZF9):
1) Apparently my ZF9 shipped with a "main bike board" intended for a ZF6, so my range appeared to be much lower than advertised (now much better after repair).
2) I also experienced the throttle "glitch" described by others, i.e., no response after stopping (now fine after repair).
3) My kick-stand fell off - apparently the bolt had vibrated loose, luckily I had a replacement bolt (Zero sent a new kick-stand overnight as the old one was bent).
Overall I'm happy with the bike and Zero's service.
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yeah, I guess to get quality up in line with higher production numbers is now the challenge. I believe a lot of us will be happy along the lines of the 2012 models and Zero could focus primarily on quality topics and shift into an incremental, well controlled mode of improvements.
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Lipo423, CliC and sgmdudley have now all reported premature front fork seal issues. Hmmm.
And perhaps this is not Zero's fault (other than perhaps in choice of components in the first place :)), as I presume forks come to Zero's final assembly location as a pre-assembled unit. Interesting that the new high-tech, unique drivetrain is working fine, while a common-tech, "tried-and-true" standard motorcycle part fails. All I know is the weather is pretty mild for May in southeast Texas, and I really miss riding :(
AF1 Racing in Austin did call today, the seals are in. Now have to wait until this weekend to get it up there so they can do the work.
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Lipo423, CliC and sgmdudley have now all reported premature front fork seal issues. Hmmm.
And perhaps this is not Zero's fault (other than perhaps in choice of components in the first place :)),
But no one would say, "Dang, my Marzocchi forks on my brand new Brammo Enertia have a seal leak... better contact Marzocchi to see if they'll fix it." They would contact Brammo and, assuming it's still under warranty, Brammo would fix it. If a significant number of the forks had seal failures, Brammo would have to issue a recall and would replace the defective fork seals or the defective forks and would remain your point of contact.
The manufacturer makes choices about which company will supply various components of the finished product. As buyers, we assume that the choices they make are informed ones. If a manufacturer decides to cut corners (and I'm NOT saying that Zero did that), then they will suffer the consequences that may arise. In the case of the manufacture of a vehicle that will be propelling us down the road at highway speeds, we put great trust in the manufacturer that it made wise choices when it chose which components to build its bike from.
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But no one would say, "Dang, my Marzocchi forks on my brand new Brammo Enertia have a seal leak... better contact Marzocchi to see if they'll fix it." They would contact Brammo and, assuming it's still under warranty, Brammo would fix it.
Yes. That's what actual owners and actual motorcycle companies that support those owners are doing. And we should expect no less.
If a significant number of the forks had seal failures, Brammo would have to issue a recall and would replace the defective fork seals or the defective forks and would remain your point of contact.
Zero has issued recalls in the past.
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/05/24/zero-recalls-some-2009-2010-s-ds-electric-motorcycles/ (http://green.autoblog.com/2011/05/24/zero-recalls-some-2009-2010-s-ds-electric-motorcycles/)
I don't know what the threshold for intervention is, but I would assume they would respond as they have in the past when that threshold is reached.
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I would agree with all your statements (not an easy deal to keep up high quality standards when you cannot cope with demand...) - I know what it is like...but, I expect them to do so, as we are not talking about $500 bikes.
This is the way I see this business, although, I acknowledge it is a difficult statement:
Zero: Simple, reliable drive system, medium-level bike components
Bammo: Very sofisticated and complex drive system, premium-level bike components
Would you agree with that?
And yes, I would love to see Zero succeed...no question.
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Brammofan, I don't disagree. Zero and their dealer are in fact taking care of it at no charge to me (except for the transportation costs to and from the dealer, but this is going to be a problem with all e-bike makers for me until the dealer networks get better established).
Whether there should be a recall yet I don't know, but that probably makes no difference to me as the results will be the same. Might help someone else, though. And if the problem is due to bad design as opposed to a defective manufacturing lot, then this should influence Zero's future sourcing decisions.
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I have some 2200 miles on '12 DS ZF6 #00017, and aside from the occasional unexpected shutdown "glitch" [which has occurred several times, always after a period of sustained full-speed operation; makes me think something gets hot and trips a "shutdown flag"] and one tire puncture, no problems. Keeping it at 75MPH or under seems to work without any issues!
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Rick - are you still having this "glitch"? It hasn't happened to me since the software update - I had hoped that it was fixed for good.
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I have 3,800 on my 2011 Zero S. The brushes on the motor gave out at 3,500 and Zero sent me a warranty replacement. I understand that this is a problem with all the bikes that have the AGNI motors (the 2012s all have a new brush-less motor) and I am pretty concerned about what happens the next time. Has anyone else had this problem?
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Brushes are inherently a wear item, but I wouldn't expect them to go out that soon. I have lots of old, well-used power tools that I've never put brushes into (apples and oranges, perhaps, but still...)
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I recall seeing somewhere a mileage claim of 70k miles for the brushes. Ah, here (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27132). 3500 miles seems very short, and they're pretty expensive. Zero doesn't list the brushes and carrier on their site anymore, but they used to be listed for about $250.
Here's a good walkthrough for how to replace the brushes:
http://experimentalev.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/motor-brush-replacment-how-to/ (http://experimentalev.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/motor-brush-replacment-how-to/)
Lots of good information in this thread.
Just hit 2000 miles on the Zero, updating my "vote". Woot! BMS board has arrived, haven't had time to mess with it yet. No more problems to report.
Edit: Hm, maybe I can't update my vote after this long. C'est la vie.
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I agree with Protomech...it looks strange that they wore out that fast...either they were faulty/weak/soft, or too tight (the springs) to the commutator.
Brushless motors are better than the brushed ones (for some applications), but there are a lot of brushed motors out there working for many years with no problems. Just keep the motor as clean as possible and you should not be changing brushes than frequently.
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I have 3,800 on my 2011 Zero S. The brushes on the motor gave out at 3,500 and Zero sent me a warranty replacement. I understand that this is a problem with all the bikes that have the AGNI motors (the 2012s all have a new brush-less motor) and I am pretty concerned about what happens the next time. Has anyone else had this problem?
would love to know for certain if I had issues with the brushes or so. after two replacement Agni motors on my 2010S we concluded a faulty BMS might be the root cause. This is down under, far away and hence not easy for Zero to assess....
on my 2011S -- 2300km now and some indications of --- dont know yet. will keep it updated once more known. Despite the distance and time difference - 16 hours or so, working with Zero on the problems has been great.
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Hope they will find out what the problem is...My knowledge on electric motors tells me that this looks like more a design problem than a control one (but I might be wrong). Zero/Agni designed/married the system and they have to figure this out for you.
It is great they are supporting you properly. Good luck!
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- The battery gauge "gets a bar back" -recovers- after I stop the bike for a few minutes (this was not the case in the demo bike)
You know, I could have sworn I saw mine do this a couple times, though in my case the gauge was down when riding 55 mph+ and recovered a couple bars a second or two after I stopped.
From my experience if your bike is measuring the energy using amps via the current setting, and you ride the bike for a while what will happen is that the various cells will discharge at slightly different rates due to many factors including internal resistance etc. ( I'm not a battery expert though ), this seems to show charge based on the lowest of cells, or perhaps an average, or I could be totally wrong. When the bike stops it seems the cells will even out and give the battery a higher reading. The most important thing I have noticed about this is that if you ride the bike non stop from a full charge you can go several miles with no bars and be totally safe, HOWEVER, if you stop the bike and allow the cells to even out, it is more likely that when you hit no bars you will really be out of charge... important life lesson ;)
The other scenario being your bike is measuring charge via voltage... not the most accurate way to go, but fun way to get your adrenaline up. As you accelerate the bars will drop rapidly then as you decelerate they will come back, this can happen immediately depending on your acceleration capabilities. If your bike regains several bars in a very short time, it sounds like it is measuring charge with this method. My 2011 switched into Voltage measuring for a week on its own once and screwed me all up. I knew what was up though from my 2010. When you ride hard in this mode you can really do a long way with no bars. You have to know your bike pretty well though. Also an important life note on voltage charge gauges, if you ride and then stop letting it sit without charging again, it is possible to run out of charge before the last bar disappears... that will really leave you like wtf... I once stopped at a nice old ladies house in the middle of the mountains to charge up. She brought me some iced tea and told me all about the humming birds on her property. Nice relaxing place to charge up ;)
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Yep, I have to agree with mostly of your statements, and more importantly, the best way is to learn the way your bike works/behaves...in my case I got a demo bike for a couple of weeks and the battery gauge seemed to work fine, when I got the new bike it was not the case...I guess, I just need to ride a few hundred miles more and let the battery break in ;)
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I also recommend riding your bike until you feel your asshole pucker because you are about to run out of charge several times, until you do run out of charge. It will give you a great appreciation for your machine, as well as help you develop a deeper understanding of your bike.
That is my Zen method of electric motorcycle relationship building. Relax and ride it 'till you have to push it. If I ever did ride a gas bike, I am sure I would do the same.
If you know the whole envelope, you can push it even farther.