ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: gstrub on March 26, 2019, 04:55:12 AM
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Hello all,
Please forgive me if this question has been answered before, I’ve read everything and remain a bit confused.
I have an electrician coming next week to look at my breaker box, I have an issue with tripping my kitchen breaker. Since I am getting this fixed, I thought I might as well entertain the idea of putting in a faster charging option in my garage than the 110V outlet I have in there (I have a SR/F premium on order).
So, what do I need? From what I am gathering I need a dedicated circuit, but is that 30, 40 or 50A? Can they just add one?
Which outlet should I have installed? Which charging cable should I buy? I would prefer just going right from the outlet to the bike without an EVSE, but if later it is determined an EVSE is necessary I want to be able to plug that in.
If it were you what would you do?
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50 amps. More flexibility, run a decent welder, etc.
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As the other guy says, 50 Amps is always preferable. However you should know that if you're using the stock 1.3kW charger on the Zero, an outlet with more power will not charge the bike any faster. If you plan on upgrading to something more powerful than the stock charger then you'll almost certainly want 50 Amp service.
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Any suggestions on what outlet to install and what wire to buy take advantage of the increased power?
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NEMA 14-50 should be perfect for your needs.
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Ok, any suggestions on a 14-50 to J1772 cable? A quick search is just turning up EVSE units, hoping I don’t need to shell out $500:)
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The electrician is probably required by code to run one or more new circuits to your kitchen and upgrade to GFCI. Fixing that may cost more than installing a new 50A outlet.
The Premium at 6 kW needs a 24A EVSE to reach full potential. If you don't actually need fast charging at home, I believe the J1772 adapter that Zero supplies would do 120V/12A and charge the bike in 10 hours. The overnight charging pattern has been more than adequate for my FX. If you do want fast charging at home, read on!
You could get away with sharing an existing 30A dryer connection, but that opens up a bunch of worries about extra hardware for switching that, getting behind the dryer, fatiguing a plug, the chance of blowing fuses, restricting laundry for periods of hours, etc.
I'd advise against trying to improvise/hack your own fake EVSE for reasons of complexity, future-proofing, and above all, safety. A decent J1772 gun with 25ft cable is a big part of the EVSE cost anyway.
I definitely agree, the best option is to install 50A service with a NEMA 14-50 receptacle and the largest EVSE that can be used with it, which is 40A. If you're going to the trouble and expense, it's worth future-proofing your home for the next 10 to 20 years, and having an outlet useful for all sorts of things (don't get a pigtail EVSE that needs to be hardwired).
You could check if your home already has 200A service to see if you'll need the power company to upgrade it. The large main breaker shut-off to the house, typically above the other breakers, should be labeled with your service amperage. The new 50A breaker will require 2 adjacent slots in the breaker box.
I just got a Juice Box 40 Pro EVSE for $550 and am happy with it. There are smaller EVSEs in the 32A/$300 range, but why scrimp on that last couple hundred, only to regret it later? If all is good, the total cost should be around $1500. Remember that you may be eligible for federal, state and/or local tax credits, as well as rebates from the power company, for both the SR/F and charging station cost.
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So, what do I need? From what I am gathering I need a dedicated circuit, but is that 30, 40 or 50A? Can they just add one?
You left out the most important information. How many chargers do you have? And what type?
I run two Zero quick chargers and the bike's onboard charger from a single source. I use my Tesla wall connector and a Tesla Tap.
Not knowing what you want to do makes it tough to answer.
But I would certainly install 240 VAC for the Zero chargers. Double the voltage on these (from 120 VAC to 240 VAC) and the current drops to half to maintain the same charging wattage on 240 VAC as when on 120 VAC. That means you can run double the chargers on 240 VAC as they then draw half the current. Beats running separate 10 gauge extension cords all over the house.
With the Zero chargers figure they draw around 13 amps each on 120 VAC. Or 6.5 amps each on 240 VAC. Go by that to figure your needs. At my houses, I have 240 VAC at 48 amps on a 60 amp breaker (20 % safety factor is code). But this is mainly for my Tesla. I only draw around 20 amps with my three Zero chargers.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don, he did say it's an SR/F Premium, so single J1772 inlet and all that confusing external/aftermarket charger stuff is rightfully moot!
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Ok, any suggestions on a 14-50 to J1772 cable? A quick search is just turning up EVSE units, hoping I don’t need to shell out $500:)
I am very happy with my JuiceBox 40 Pro. Connects to the 14-50 NEMA and provides up to 40A charging (more than you'll need for most Level-2 loads). Still using the stock charger on my Zero, but use the JuiceBox for my Honda Clarity Plug In Hybrid. But you will need to shell out $500.00+...
Steve
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I'm going to chime in to endorse the Juicebox 40 Pro as well. Its app is extremely useful for controlling the charging of a Diginow-equipped SR. For an SR/F, the graphing and history functions of the app are still useful for checking on charging problems, as I've found with our Tesla.
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I am also waiting on delivery of my SR/F Premium.
At first, it will be L1 charging at home.
I have an existing 30amp circuit that I will likely tap in to for a 24A charger. That should provide 5.76kW charge rate which is pretty close to the 6kW max that the Premium has.
I say 'likely' only because the dear wife says to evaluate the need after I get the bike and have used it for a while.
I like the idea of being able to charge the bike up to storage level after a ride and leaving it that way until the next ride.
Then, if the day supports a commute on the bike, pop on the charger to top off the tank while I get ready. An hour on the L2 should be enough to put me in good SOC for my commute (shy of 40 miles one way, 90+% highway)
L1 charge available at work.
I do agree with the previous comments through. If you are running a new line, go big to support future growth. And who knows, you might take up welding as a hobby! :-D
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I say 'likely' only because the dear wife says to evaluate the need after I get the bike and have used it for a while.
"Need" is a tough criterion. Having a fast charger changes your lifestyle with the bike. I guess you could fast charge at a local cafe before you return home. Just let your wife know that's where you'll be until you're done, in case she wants you. Even better is if she decides she wants an EV and "needs" that fast charger.
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If you're willing to live with 3.3kW, get a Duosida EVSE off of eBay for $140 and a Quick220 device for a 20A circuit.
https://www.quick220.com/-A220-20D.html
Then find two outlets in your garage and/or kitchen that are not GFCI and are on breakers that are opposing phase. Usually done by trial and error.
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Has anybody tried anything like this?
https://www.amazon.com/Jekayla-Portable-Electric-Vehicle-Charging/dp/B071K874MG/ref=sr_1_27_sspa?keywords=14-50%2Bcable&qid=1553610542&s=gateway&sr=8-27-spons&th=1
It's basically a portable Juicebox with the connectors to plug into a 14-50 outlet and the J1772 on the bike. Sounds like it even reproduces the signaling so picky vehicles think they're charged into a "real" charging station. Just sourcing the connectors and 15 feet of high-current cabling comes near to the price of that unit and you have to put it together yourself -- easy for some of us but not so much for everybody.
I have to admit I'm considering getting one. I carry around the one DigiNow supplied when I bought their charger, but this one has a longer cable so parking would be more flexible, and the meters would be a nice double-check that everything is working well. It also has a carrying case so it wouldn't get out of control in my top box. One of the reviews says one person had a problem when it got rained on, but I wouldn't worry about that too much since I don't do long trips in inclement weather.
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Don, he did say it's an SR/F Premium, so single J1772 inlet and all that confusing external/aftermarket charger stuff is rightfully moot!
OIC. I somehow missed that in his first message.
But does the SR/F still have the connector above the motor to add quick chargers? I know this does no good if you're already charging at 1C, but I still wonder if it's still there.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Silly layout question along these lines... This is my garage:
(https://content.screencast.com/users/PittCaleb/folders/Jing/media/3d175a30-8f78-44c3-af78-bd31a3c1d419/2019-03-27_1039.png)
There is only 1 outlet, notes at top right (1), near the pedestrian door to enter the garage from the house.
I run power to my workbench by pulling off an overhead light for small things or running an extension cord the the real tools.
I have the Zero and 'back it in" at the top easily after rides. I will be purchasing an electric car this August. I have very easy access to the entire wall where the current outlet (1) is on. Some cars feed from the front, others from the back (Tesla). I'm wondering where might be the best place to put this 50 amp circuit.
I originally thought just next to the current 110 outlet. The Hyundai Kona EV powers from the front, but the Tesla Model 3 back left. Not sure where the Leaf is charged from. The Zero is easily moved around the garage and I don't need the J-plug for it anyway.
I'm wondering if I shouldn't put it on the ceiling in the middle where it could easily be moved to either side of the garage, front or back, for future use. I used to hang my air compressor hose up there in a previous house.
I am also thinking of running a single 50 amp circuit, but putting in 2 outlets, one at the front and one at the back, along the same wall. Only additional cost if the outlet ($5) and some extra wire. Obv couldn't use both at the same time, but would allow flexibility and potential future proofing.
Thoughts?
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Silly layout question along these lines...
Thoughts?
EVSE cords I'm familiar with are 20 to 25 feet long. You could put the EVSE at the center of the forward wall; the Tesla would have to be parked closer than you want, or backed in. You could also put the EVSE at the center of the right wall, though walking around might be more of an issue. If you don't secure the EVSE to the wall, put the outlet low on the forward wall and if the Tesla needs more cord you could lay the EVSE on the ground.
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Purely an idea I've had and I'll throw it out here.
You know the swinging arm that's over the bay on older self wash car washes? It lets you pull the pressure washing gun all around the car while keeping the hose off the ground and out of the way.
What about a central plug in the center of the garage ceiling with the cord running on a swing arm like the car wash so it can reach multiple EVs and saves cable wear and tear. Also keeping it as high as possible from any flooding.
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I am also thinking of running a single 50 amp circuit, but putting in 2 outlets, one at the front and one at the back, along the same wall. Only additional cost if the outlet ($5) and some extra wire.
I like the idea of a 2nd outlet, but it might not be so cheap. My 50 amp line was run in metal conduit. There are many reasons for this, including heat dissipation to prevent burning down the house.
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While I'm new to this forum, I've been an EV owner for 2 years now with my Leaf and an EVSE in the garage. I installed the breaker, ran the line, and installed the 14-50 NEMA outlet. I also went with the Siemens Versicharge. It's about $100 less than the Juicebox and delivers 30A, which would be enough for home charging needs (8kW per hour max).
just my $.02
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I like the idea of a 2nd outlet, but it might not be so cheap. My 50 amp line was run in metal conduit. There are many reasons for this, including heat dissipation to prevent burning down the house.
For my 50A circuit I got a roll of Cerrowire 6 AWG and stapled it along the garage ceiling away from anywhere it could be bumped or pierced by roofing nails, etc, then ran it down into the wall. It is fine by any definition.
Ampacity information: https://www.cerrowire.com/products/resources/tables-calculators/ampacity-charts/
It is never going to exceed the lowest temperature rating and can be run in always-dry areas out of reach.
It's also on the upper end of what's reasonable to bend around and connect up to wall receptacles.
Disclaimer: I'm not an electrician. Never listen to me.
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Purely an idea I've had and I'll throw it out here.
You know the swinging arm that's over the bay on older self wash car washes? It lets you pull the pressure washing gun all around the car while keeping the hose off the ground and out of the way.
What about a central plug in the center of the garage ceiling with the cord running on a swing arm like the car wash so it can reach multiple EVs and saves cable wear and tear. Also keeping it as high as possible from any flooding.
Funny you should mention that. The guy in the video below did that using a piece of plywood on gate hinges so he could share an EVSE cable among two cars.
I don't see where two 50A outlets on one circuit would be useful. For one, that would prevent future use of two EVSEs unless they're only 16A. For another, moving an EVSE between outlets may tempt the electronics to burn out, disrupt features like Wi-Fi and car brand awareness (Juice Box has both), and may fatigue both the connector and the user.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIvfy7uQowI