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[Cortezdtv]

I put up a thread quite a while back but there were no replies http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4142.0
The right to repair act isn't instant and you'd have to spend the five minutes to sign up a since that would be a one minute task then you'd have four left over to post it on Facebook or however else you communicate with others. If all you guys out in California did that it could be on your next ballot rather than a discussion on a forum. Snowden is out of the country and not concerned with anything other than not being thrown in Guantanamo so don't expect one lone ranger to ride in so you don't have to....

Everyones needs to relize that what they have could be replicated, and then sold! They have now a very unique battery and motor design, but they cant let the schematics of that battery out.... It is a fact that they have the  densest battery on the market  and by the looks of things its not going to change any time soon. This and many of their parts on their service portal, are theirs only, so i do see why it suxks for all of us with no acess. But like I said here are some who donhave access and are willing to help....
i


Harlen arron, biff

They contribute.... But only when spexific questiona are asked etc, now when we are all complaining why we dont have a service manual....thats not a question in their vast amount of knowledge.... (They always answer "math" question where there is ONE right answer, on this forum we ask alot of "engish" questions where multiple answers can be right)


All they want you to touch on these bikes is the owners manual sorry everyone....




But like i said before there are alot op people who have ordered parts and could make a pretty close to complete rendering of whatswhat  on the bikes....



Chdfarl.... I can answer most of your questions with a tape and my cameta, ill see what i can do tonight when i get off work, sorry that went un answered!

[MrDude_1]

Everyones needs to relize that what they have could be replicated, and then sold! They have now a very unique battery and motor design, but they cant let the schematics of that battery out....

Not to upset anyone, but there are 2 problems with that statement.
1. what we are asking for is not enough to create "replica" parts.
2. Anyone that wants to create these parts can simply buy them and copy them. They dont need a quick reference guide to do so.

We are not asking for the IPM model data or anything ridiculous like that. We are just asking for the same parts diagrams as every other motorcycle manufacturer. If they dont have these diagrams yet or a manual yet, that is fine. But I would like to see the little that they do have.

It is a fact that they have the  densest battery on the market  and by the looks of things its not going to change any time soon.

I love Luke. I also LiveForPhysics. I also believe that if you have a box to work with, making the cells flat and not round is the way to go.
But dont kid yourself into thinking it is a special design. It is the same pouch cells that I run in my goped to do 40mph. It is simple Ebike building, scaled up.

The only diff between these batteries and my hobby king specials in my RC truck.. is quality control.  They have a nice QC setup that lets them use the best of the best.
add on a decent BMS and contractor, and you have their battery.
You can do the exact same thing yourself at home, with enough work on your part.

That said.. I may have gone over your head a bit... because saying its the densest battery pack is just marketing. Of course its a smaller package for the same amp hours.. its using pouch cells in a cube container vs round cells in a cube.

This and many of their parts on their service portal, are theirs only, so i do see why it suxks for all of us with no acess.

I should point out that all the parts on everyones portal is just theirs only. The Honda portals only show me parts for my Honda....etc.

But like I said here are some who donhave access and are willing to help....

yes some have access and are willing to help... but I am not asking for others to help me. I need to be able to help myself.
Unlike A Streetcar Named Desire, I do not always rely on the kindness of strangers.

They contribute.... But only when spexific questiona are asked etc, now when we are all complaining why we dont have a service manual....thats not a question in their vast amount of knowledge.... (They always answer "math" question where there is ONE right answer, on this forum we ask alot of "engish" questions where multiple answers can be right)

Thats why we need to be able to look things up ourselves.  Every other motorcycle I own comes with a wiring diagram, or one is available. This should too.. I am not asking for a full EE layout of the BMS and controller.. but a block diagram for lights and such should already be out.

All they want you to touch on these bikes is the owners manual sorry everyone....

I like zero. I dont think they're holding back on making it because they dont want it out. I think they dont have one because they dont have the manpower to make a manual. A few years ago they were a small company barely making any bikes.. and today they're a small company trying to make alot of bikes.

That said, if that really is their opinion... tough. It will come out. It will be shared. Its just a matter of time.  The poor suckers with the 2012 and earlier bikes are already lacking info. As these bikes age, the demand for data will only be higher.

But like i said before there are alot op people who have ordered parts and could make a pretty close to complete rendering of whatswhat  on the bikes....
Chdfarl.... I can answer most of your questions with a tape and my cameta, ill see what i can do tonight when i get off work, sorry that went un answered!

exactly. If we have to make a manual ourselves... we will.

[acacia1731]

It appears that "Right to Repair" efforts were dropped following an agreement by automotive trade groups.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20140125/RETAIL05/301279936/automakers-agree-to-right-to-repair-deal


For anything to impact Zero, there would likely have to be a renewed effort by politicians somewhere (state or fed).

[chdfarl]

It appears that "Right to Repair" efforts were dropped following an agreement by automotive trade groups.http://www.autonews.com/article/20140125/RETAIL05/301279936/automakers-agree-to-right-to-repair-dealFor anything to impact Zero, there would likely have to be a renewed effort by politicians somewhere (state or fed).

That sucks that they backed off rather than putting it into law "by and for the people" but that doesn't mean it can't be pursued by others. 

Well said MrDude_1 I'm happy that you typed all that since I hate to. A few other notes the IPM design is nothing new check Parker/Brammo and Toyota's Prius motor. 

[MrDude_1]

A few other notes the IPM design is nothing new check Parker/Brammo and Toyota's Prius motor.

The coolest production IPM motor design right now is in the Spark EV(and other GM cars)...  Chevy is mass producing bar wound motors with IPM rotors that are right there on the cutting edge. They're pretty neat.
They even assemble the rotor with the "magnets" not magnetized, then somehow do it with them bonded in the rotor.

[Cortezdtv]

Everyones needs to relize that what they have could be replicated, and then sold! They have now a very unique battery and motor design, but they cant let the schematics of that battery out....

Not to upset anyone, but there are 2 problems with that statement.
1. what we are asking for is not enough to create "replica" parts.
2. Anyone that wants to create these parts can simply buy them and copy them. They dont need a quick reference guide to do so.

We are not asking for the IPM model data or anything ridiculous like that. We are just asking for the same parts diagrams as every other motorcycle manufacturer. If they dont have these diagrams yet or a manual yet, that is fine. But I would like to see the little that they do have.

From what I've seen that schematic, the blown up that everyone wants exists, only as a bike DESIGN breakdown inside the factory, from my experience watching people play with the portal when it was allowed those didn't exist on there.... ONLY ON FACTORY COMPUTERS... So your some what asking for something that doesn't exist! yes you can copy it but programming it goes hand and hand. In reality it can be reverse engineered but if the zero service portal was open to everyone, all of the firmware updates would be "decodeable" along with a lot of sensitive information.

It is a fact that they have the  densest battery on the market  and by the looks of things its not going to change any time soon.

I love Luke. I also LiveForPhysics. I also believe that if you have a box to work with, making the cells flat and not round is the way to go.
But dont kid yourself into thinking it is a special design. It is the same pouch cells that I run in my goped to do 40mph. It is simple Ebike building, scaled up.

The only diff between these batteries and my hobby king specials in my RC truck.. is quality control.  They have a nice QC setup that lets them use the best of the best.
add on a decent BMS and contractor, and you have their battery.
You can do the exact same thing yourself at home, with enough work on your part.

That said.. I may have gone over your head a bit... because saying its the densest battery pack is just marketing. Of course its a smaller package for the same amp hours.. its using pouch cells in a cube container vs round cells in a cube.

[/quote]
Please dont ever say something that dumb on this forum again!!!!! Your going to try and argue that any average person can build a better battery than LUKE get that shit outta here.... Its pretty well known that its not that easy to design build and then mass produce a battery that is REALLY that reliable. To top that off he is the only person who has been able to successfully design a package to house pouch style battery in a modular pack setup....

This and many of their parts on their service portal, are theirs only, so i do see why it suxks for all of us with no acess.

I should point out that all the parts on everyones portal is just theirs only. The Honda portals only show me parts for my Honda....etc.

But like I said here are some who donhave access and are willing to help....

yes some have access and are willing to help... but I am not asking for others to help me. I need to be able to help myself.
Unlike A Streetcar Named Desire, I do not always rely on the kindness of strangers.

[/quote]

well you may be waiting a long time... sorry man....

They contribute.... But only when spexific questiona are asked etc, now when we are all complaining why we dont have a service manual....thats not a question in their vast amount of knowledge.... (They always answer "math" question where there is ONE right answer, on this forum we ask alot of "engish" questions where multiple answers can be right)

Thats why we need to be able to look things up ourselves.  Every other motorcycle I own comes with a wiring diagram, or one is available. This should too.. I am not asking for a full EE layout of the BMS and controller.. but a block diagram for lights and such should already be out.

why do you need a block diagram for the lights? burton has already labeled it soooo it already should exist...

All they want you to touch on these bikes is the owners manual sorry everyone....

I like zero. I dont think they're holding back on making it because they dont want it out. I think they dont have one because they dont have the manpower to make a manual. A few years ago they were a small company barely making any bikes.. and today they're a small company trying to make alot of bikes.

That said, if that really is their opinion... tough. It will come out. It will be shared. Its just a matter of time.  The poor suckers with the 2012 and earlier bikes are already lacking info. As these bikes age, the demand for data will only be higher.
[/quote]

or the bikes just wont exsit, and they will continue to trade in the 12's for newer more serviceable platforms.... in fact since the start of the trade in program there has been 1 complaint on here of a bad 2012..... so they sure all went somewhere

But like i said before there are alot op people who have ordered parts and could make a pretty close to complete rendering of whatswhat  on the bikes....
Chdfarl.... I can answer most of your questions with a tape and my camera, ill see what i can do tonight when i get off work, sorry that went un answered!

exactly. If we have to make a manual ourselves... we will.
[/quote]

which is why i said if people posted questions instead of posting complaints they might get farther.....
Biff, arron, luke, harlen, burton, terry, electric cowboy, have all had their hands dirty on these bikes and know far more than the average person... and most questions within reason are answered on here.....


Hobbie battieries ha ha ha luke must just be an average guy....

[MrDude_1]

Please dont ever say something that dumb on this forum again!!!!! Your going to try and argue that any average person can build a better battery than LUKE get that shit outta here.... Its pretty well known that its not that easy to design build and then mass produce a battery that is REALLY that reliable. To top that off he is the only person who has been able to successfully design a package to house pouch style battery in a modular pack setup....

The average person is a fucking moron. You have to be willing to learn. The slightly above average person interested in electrical design can, with effort... build a comparable pack.
Building ONE battery at home is not a big deal.

I never said "the average person".  I never said mass produce. You can build one easily yourself, if you're willing to put the work and money into it.

What you're doing is twisting my words, and underestimating the importance and hard work of quality control.  The design of his pack is not unique or special. Its the fact that they have a very robust QC setup. The fact that they use a EV-class cell supplier making high quality batteries that actually get tested.  They are then very closely in internal resistance, and tested.  Its the multi step quality control that separates the cells in his packs from the cheapies I buy from the far east.

All that said, if you took cheap hobby king batteries, a bunch of them.. and tested each cell.. and matched 28 of them together.. and ran a good BMS.. and packaged the whole thing in a nice box.... it would be comparable.  It would be a hobby that sucked your time and isnt cheap... but doable if you like making things yourself. If you doubt that, go on Endless-sphere.com and just go read a few pack-building threads.

[Cortezdtv]

Dude no a zero pack is not a hobbie pack and its quite humerious that you truely beleive that you can assemble one of these batteries.... Even if your above an average person you still wont be able to....



Im very lucky to have surrounded myself with people who know more about the bikes batteries and their performancethan most on here could ever dream of knowing....    Your not even remotely close when you say someone can assemble something like this....
Go ask jozzer or doctor bass or major on endless phere ask them if they can build you a battery that will work in a bike not using zero cells....


They wont be able to.....

Endless phere, I probably have read more on there than you can imagine...... Lets take the mx5 conversion done by jozzer..... Its a crapload of hobbie batteries.... And its far from a zero battery...it has no buss bars, instantaneous hurting performance.... Its a cool car but far from a swappable battery, and even farther from a zero....

Twisting your words: you literally said "the inly difference between.....you can dof it at home, with enought time on yur part"     I consider myself pretty average.... So yes you are saying that any old person can build this battery.... Even the if you wrre saying a very well rounded electrical engineer could.... Yout still pushing it... That fact is the cell chemistyb is different from hobbie cells, the bms is complelty custom and the bus bars and wiring have had 3 direct years of iderstions to get them where hey are today..... And you think would could juat take a bunch of puches magically pop them together in your garage.... Pott them, then assemble bms and connectors and recase the whole thing, instead of just having one case like jozzer did and unlike zero batteries..... But ya totally doable in my garage......


To say even i could build that in my garge is obsurd!!!!
Do you know how many people assemble zero batteries? Do you know how long it takes per battery? Do you know what happens if you incorrectly install a fet board?   No you dont have a clue.....and if you did you sure as shit wouldnt be saying anything



When you say build a compare-able pack..... You should be saying build a equally explosive bomb with no battery capabilities....especially if you are invloved in the build.....   Well maybe im getting ahead of my self you can compare a lead acid battery to a lipo..... Thats pretty much what you are doing....

[MrDude_1]

stupid statements with a couple name dropps and a bad comparison

Where in that poorly written response was an actual question or statement?
I have a stupid little goped that goes 40mph off hobby lipo.
Theres 10 or 20 other guys running ebikes that are faster than the zero, off hobby lipo.
its not safe if you dont know what the hell you're doing.. and 90% of knowing what you're doing is monitoring and testing. The same thing as the QC zero does.


Are you trying to say its impossible? because we're already doing it.
Are you trying to say I am wrong?  Because you need to back that up somehow with some kind of facts.

In the meantime.. heres a couple ebike videos for fun.

[Cortezdtv]

Your go ped goes 40 mph. Holy crap your my hero






Look at the time stamp man, its a thing of the past to me.....

[Cortezdtv]

But you aid you could make a compareable battery and you havnt; most of the fast ebokes on endless the cells are taken apart to charge; just like the leguna seca ev kart record holder..... Tons of hobbie batteries that get individually charged for once race....


Thats not a reliable battery pack....
How do you not get your not going to make one.....?


You can make a battery pack, but it will be nothing like a zero pack!!!!

[MrDude_1]

But you aid you could make a compareable battery and you havnt; most of the fast ebokes on endless the cells are taken apart to charge; just like the leguna seca ev kart record holder..... Tons of hobbie batteries that get individually charged for once race....


Thats not a reliable battery pack....
How do you not get your not going to make one.....?


You can make a battery pack, but it will be nothing like a zero pack!!!!

You're right. its not a zero pack.
its just a pack with the same wH density.same number of cells. same voltages. same peak and continuous amperage. same charge rate.. all with a similar BMS that will match the cells to 4.15v (the same voltage as zero uses)

[Cortezdtv]

Dude, no a zero pack is not a hobbie pack and its quite hilarious that you truly believe that you can assemble one of these batteries.... Even if your above an average person you still wont be able to....


Im very lucky to have surrounded myself with people who know more about the bikes batteries and their performance than most on here could ever dream of knowing....    Your not even remotely close when you say someone can assemble something like this, there are less than a hand-full of people working in the battery area.

Go ask jozzer or doctor bass or major on endless phere ask them if they can build you a battery that will work in a bike not using zero cells.... They wont be able to without Luke's help because of all the com wires going into the battery, and knowing what they do. without having a bike and dissecting it instant for instant, your not going to be able to find out the proper enables for the battery and or the controller.


Endless-sphere, I probably have read more on there than you can imagine ...... Lets take the mx5 conversion done by jozzer..... Its a crapload of hobbie batteries.... And its far from a zero battery...it has no buss bars, instantaneous hurting performance.... Its a cool car but far from a swappable battery, and even farther from a zero....

there are a ton of ebikes.... showing one winning a race doesnt show its reliability, nor does it show thats somone making a zero pack.
98% of the bikes on there are using hub'd dc motors not ac motors, also most people are using a Aaltrax controller.. that is all well and dandy but 50-75v is FAR from a zero like your little go-ped buddy..... if you cant realize this well I'm sorry man... i was riding altrax zero bikes almost 5 years ago now.....

Now the people who do bump the power up to 96V controllers... well there are very very few on there

I believe the one of the fastest uses turnigy 6s batteries LUKE's deathbike 2.0 thats a size 6 on there and 757
that is the ONLY one I'ive seen going to a sevcon controller... and you want to know how he did it.... no bms individually charged the cells for the race, but hes also the one who designed the zero battery so he knows what both the controller, battery and motor want, he is one of a handful of people who can do this reliably on the west-coast....



a battery like that ^^^ is the re-iteration of the original electricross, same but slightly lower voltage of what luke built for his deathbike...

why are you acting like building a battery is some easy feat?


Twisting your words: you literally said "The only diff between these batteries and my hobby king specials in my RC truck.. is quality control.  They have a nice QC setup that lets them use the best of the best.
add on a decent BMS and contractor, and you have their battery.
You can do the exact same thing yourself at home, with enough work on your part.
"   

 I consider myself pretty average.... So yes you are pretty much saying that any old person can build this battery.... Even the if you were saying a very well rounded electrical engineer could.... Your still pushing it...
That fact is that
1. The cell chemistry is different from hobby cells
2. The bms is completely custom
3. The bus bars and wiring have had 3 direct years of evolution to get them where they are today
4. The QC for the cells isn't done at zero but at Farasis (the fact that you don't know these statements from here down shows you havn't been reading on here very long because all of this is public info, and if you've ever gotten a private tour you might know more...)
5. The cells boxes come to zero assembled, they install the parts like bms and final casing or assemble into a SDS brick
6. The cells once assembled then get charged and discharged and montering for a final QC but the cells are directly done at Farasis
7. You might be able to build a old 2010-12 battery

Like this



but thats a 50v-75v system with a dc motor much much easier... your comparing apples and oranges, but if that's what you do so be it.... Ill stop now as there is never any winning with you!

Potting- is a hole other conversation, that requires a lot of experience and room, You ever worked with Fiberglass resin? its not much better than that sooo..... once you get off the months of design and spec'ing parts, you get to bend copper bars coat them in nasty stuff, and assemble it...


To say even I could build that in my garge is obsurd!!!!

Do you know how many people assemble zero batteries?
Do you know how long it takes per battery?
Do you know what happens if you incorrectly install a fet board? 


 No you dont have a clue.....and if you did you sure as shit wouldn't be saying anything



When you say build a compare-able pack..... You should be saying build a equally explosive bomb with single discharge battery (or dis-assemble to charge and re-assemble) ....especially if you are invloved in the build.....   Well maybe I'm getting ahead of my self you can compare a lead acid battery to a lipo..... That's pretty much what you are doing....

Can someone post a picture of what the battery looks like with the case off and what the cells look like. 

There were some articles recently of a Zero battery engineer criticizing Tesla's cylindrical cell batteries and the writer was fanning the flames with a catchy headline 'Tesla can learn a thing or two about battery design from Zero.'  Interesting.

I can post a picture of the cells, that is easy. But the packaging and interconnects in a zero module are not ours to share, so sadly I cannot post a picture of that without offending some folks.

and yes, tesla knows the cylindrical format is not optimal for the most energy in a smallest lightest box, but compared to pouch cells, you can get away with murder on packaging cylindricals. They traded a direct hit to the Whr/L and Whr/Kg stats on their pack for a lower production fallout and lower initial R&D costs. Unlike on a motorcycle, it is easier to just make the box bigger on a car.

Zero (Luke) did it the hard way, and they found a novel way to make pouch cells work, and are reaping the benefits of having 1/8th the capacity of a Tesla in 1/12th the volume and for 1/20th the weight. Nissan, GM and all the other EV manufacturers using pouches have spent more than zero has ever spent or earned by orders of magnitude and still have not done it in a way that works in the real world, so kudos to them.

is that organized enough for you Mr. Dude?





lets see some real specs of the go-ped battery then..shit and the go ped because by your specs you should damn near have 100 mile range......

you talk a good game.. but show the proof....

[MrDude_1]

lets see some real specs of the go-ped battery then..shit and the go ped because by your specs you should damn near have 100 mile range......

you talk a good game.. but show the proof....

My goped is nothing more than a little commuter thing. Its reliable. Its used daily in spring/summer/fall and intermittently in winter.  But it wasnt built as a direct comparison to a zero.
It goes over 21miles flat out (the furtherst I've taken it), or 30+ if you dont hold it wide open everywhere.  I have a little over 3000 miles on it so far.
Its pack is a 16s4P that I charge to 4.15v per cell for 66.4v max voltage and 20AH. Nothing special, just hobby king lipo hardpacks stuck together and a small harness to keep all 16s in parallel.
99% of my charging is bulk charging with homemade chargers. Balance is checked regularly, but because I go about 3 miles or so each leg of my commute, the battery never goes low.. so it doesnt go out of balance. its really overbuilt for what I need, but its always better to have a larger battery and under-utilize it, then have an under-sized one and abuse it.

Build thread is here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=67812