ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: DesignerDan on March 24, 2013, 04:53:48 AM
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I just bought a 2013 zero s 8.5 yesterday. It ran fine yesterday and most of today. However earlier I was riding and the bar battery gauge displayed half bars and the bluetooth app also indicated 50% charge. Well all of the sudden the RPM analog gauge dropped to zero (I'm going about 45 mph) and the battery bar gauge went to zero bars. The bluetooth app "froze" in place. After about a mile the whole bike shut off but the dashboard was still lit up. I tried cycling the key switch but then the dash wouldn't even turn on. I pushed the bike to the nearest outlet and tried charging it. Nothing. (I know for a fact the outlet was powered) I tried plugging/unplugging several times. I tried cycling the key switch. Still nothing. I called customer support only to find out they don't operate on weekends. Great. I tried cycling the key switch a few more times and then all the sudden it turned on. The dash displayed half bars or 50% just like where it left off. I plugged it in and it started charging. I charged for a few minutes and went immediately home. At home I had one bar left. I plugged it in and it started charging. After about 20 minutes the the green charging light became solid green. In disbelief that the charging was complete I tried turning on the bike. Nothing. I unplugged the charger and plugged it back in. The green charging light comes on but is solid green. The bike refuses to turn on now.
Does anyone have any idea what's going on here!? It's like there's gremlins in my bike and zero's customer support wont be available until Monday.
-Dan
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Id have to say this is what warranties are for, on such a new bike get them to sort it rather than messing with anything.
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It sure sounds like a wire came loose somewhere.
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If you do get the bike to turn on, or charge, connect your bluetooth device and use the "contact support" screen to email the bike log to customer support. I am sure they would like to see it.
-ryan
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Is there any update? Did Zero get you back up and going? If so, can you share what they found?
Thanks,
Bill
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Unfortunately the bike is still sitting in my garage, useless. It still wont turn on or recharge. I was contacted by zero yesterday and today and they said the engineers are looking at the data logs. There's still no answer to what the problem is but they suspect it's a problem with main bike board. Ill post an update when they find out what is wrong and how they will go about resolving the problem.
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The bike has to go back to the dealership tomorrow.
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I understand your frustration, and it reminds me what happened when Bill Gates a long time ago (at a show called COMDEX) made his analogy about the car business development -GM- vs Microsoft...
Now, seriously, this looks like a control system malfunction, nothing serious, I guess, not nice, as we all expect reliable products when we buy them.
Do not worry, Zero will fix it.
Welcome to the early adopters club ;)
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(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/529991_507363155987958_955123680_n.jpg)
Wednesday, 6:01 pm. The zero was loaded on the trailer. Don't worry, I promise I didn't "Broder" it. It's legitimately not working. The guy from the dealer that loaded the bike said "You know these things don't need gas, right?" (The zero was being picked up at a gas station) I didn't find his joke funny.
Thursday the problem was determined to be the main bike board. A new one was overnight shipped with an expected delivery date of Friday.
Friday (today), the part hasn't arrived yet and the dealership closes in less than two hours. The mechanics at the dealer heard my story and said if all this happened to them they would have returned the bike and demanded their money back.
Tomorrow will mark a full week of the bike being broken. I'm losing money because of this issue. Not only am I paying for a bike, and insurance on said bike that I don't even have, but I've lost approximately $50 in gas this week by having to drive a car around town everyday for work.
Here is a video of what happens sometimes when the bike turns on but doesn't move:
2013 zero motorcycle problem (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVhlgb-vtyo#ws)
That video was taken right before the bike went back to the dealership on Wednesday.
Just to recap, this bike was ordered from the dealership February 25. There was a one delay in the estimated delivery date. Then, when it did arrive at the dealer it was "critically" damaged and had to be sent back. That was March 13th. The second bike had a delivery date of March 21st. It came March 22nd and I picked it up that day. It then broke March 23rd. It is now March 29 and still, no bike.
It doesn't seem like there is anyone to blame. I apparently was just a really unlucky costumer and Zero and the dealership are working hard to resolve the issue. It's just a shame the nature of the issue resulted in me only having my California wonder-bike for only one day.
Hopefully it will be fixed tomorrow and I will have it back and I will be in a much better mood because how could anyone ride this bike and not be smiling! :)
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You have my best wishes for a speedy recovery, DesignerDan. We would all like to see your Zero moving instead of making funny faces at you. Have a Happy Easter!
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Time heals all wounds. Soon this will all be a distant memory trying to sneak back into a happy head and to be rejected by a smile :)
Trikester
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I would join Richard & Trikester in their statements...In a few days you will be a happy rider.
I do not own a 13' model, yet ::) but I did test with a few other people all of the new models last year (the bikes were pre-production units), they all worked fine, not a single failure...and they are great, huge step forward in comparing with 12' models.
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Thanks for video, good to see detail of dash and controls. Still no bike in Australia.
So any info and video is good to see.
You have your bike fixed soon, at most you wait a week or bit more
I have been waiting 2 years to purchase a zero :(
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Just to give a quick update, the dealership contacted me yesterday (Saturday) at about 4:30. They said the main bike board wasn't in yet but they expect it early next week. They also said I could stop by and pick up one of their floor models (2013 DS 11.4) and I could ride that until mine was fixed! I was really happy to here that. Now that's service! Unfortunately, they closed at 5. I suspect the intentionally waited until 30 minutes before closing to inform me of this in hopes that I wouldn't be able to make it in time. (Which I wasn't) The dealership is closed today and I have to go to work tomorrow before they open. So chances are by the time I get off work my bike should be fixed and I won't need to borrow one of their floor bikes. But it's nice knowing that even if they aren't able to fix it on Monday I will still be taking a Zero home Monday night. :)
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Change of plans; they gave me their 2012 ds demo bike. It's still a zero and still a great bike so I can't complain. I just hope they are able to fix mine in a timely manner.
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I think most of us have had good experiences with Zero in terms of service, with only a few exceptions. Glad you are riding again!
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Change of plans; they gave me their 2012 ds demo bike. It's still a zero and still a great bike so I can't complain. I just hope they are able to fix mine in a timely manner.
Zero is going to great lengths to keep us riding. Not sure if we buy these and expect the maturity of BMW or Yamaha with bikes not changed for years behind it.
By being tolerant and flexible when I started on a 2010 in our far away country with a not very interested dealer Zero managed the best out of it. Now very happy on a2011.
And Dan. Remember u r riding new high tech. It's not a utility. It's a decision to ride differently.
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Today the dealership called and said my bike was fixed and I could pick it up. I returned the 2012 DS they graciously let me borrow and I rode off on my 2013 zero S. I've been riding it all day (I was so happy to have it back) and not a single issue. It does appear that the issue was the Main Bike Board. I have to say that I'm impressed with the way the dealership and Zero resolved the problem. It was a sucky situation for all three parties but Zero made the best of it and fixed the problem as quickly as they could. It was also very nice of the dealership to let me borrow their demo bike while mine was being fixed. You can't really ask for better service than that.
In my opinion Zero has reached the level where it is much more than a start up company. After experiencing this issue I would have to say that Zero and their bikes are the real deal. I've gotten dozens of questions the last two days while riding the demo bike and my bike and I passed on good word about Zero as a company and their products and I would recommend them to just about anyone. I hope Zero is very successful in the years to come.
Happy riding everyone.
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I just bought a Zero from FL motorsports ( I see their logo on the truck in your pic) Good to hear they are willing to work with you on issues & it's good to see your luck has turned around ;)
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I agree that Zero has excellent customer service. This is something that they must do as a small manufacturer selling a high-tech, low volume and expensive product to "early adopters". If they did not respond in this manner, they would soon be out of business, as most of their advertizing comes by word of mouth and not by an expensive advertizing agency's messages.
If this was BMW, they would probably be telling you that the bike's computer is a "wear item" and not covered by their warranty. ::) BMW can get away with that sort of response because they sell so many vehicles that a few disgruntled customers are just a minor irritant to their sales department. But Zero still has more engineers than sales staff, so the engineers rule and the customers, and any problems that they experience, get taken care of ASAP. I love small companies without a big bureaucracy.
It also really helps to have a responsive retail dealer that is willing to work with both their customer and a low-volume manufacturer to ease the burden of any warranty issues..
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I had two issues with my 13 DS, both were with vendor supplied parts and not the core bits that Zero builds. Zero was on top of both and got them addressed quickly.
Thanks Zero and Thanks Harlan
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Ive had similar experience, I noticed that my rear brake didn't have much power at all so took it back to the dealer and they diagnosed the problem as a damaged caliper mount. Zero sent down a new swinging arm and i was loaned an X to get me around in the meantime. Unfortunately it took a month but at least i had electric transport. The problem couldn't really have been resolved better (aside from using a faster courier!).
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Today the dealership called and said my bike was fixed and I could pick it up. I returned the 2012 DS they graciously let me borrow and I rode off on my 2013 zero S. I've been riding it all day (I was so happy to have it back) and not a single issue. It does appear that the issue was the Main Bike Board. I have to say that I'm impressed with the way the dealership and Zero resolved the problem. It was a sucky situation for all three parties but Zero made the best of it and fixed the problem as quickly as they could. It was also very nice of the dealership to let me borrow their demo bike while mine was being fixed. You can't really ask for better service than that.
In my opinion Zero has reached the level where it is much more than a start up company. After experiencing this issue I would have to say that Zero and their bikes are the real deal. I've gotten dozens of questions the last two days while riding the demo bike and my bike and I passed on good word about Zero as a company and their products and I would recommend them to just about anyone. I hope Zero is very successful in the years to come.
Happy riding everyone.
Zero has been great I supporting us. Even if far away away inAustralia creates challenges. Already with my 2010 great support in down under. Sadly some in Oz say otherwise. But sounds to me they have not tried or understood we are early adopters. See for comments on that Facebook fan page...
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Glad Zero got you fixed up. Now you can appreciate their upgrades from 2012 to 2013 : )
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Bad news guys. The problem is back. I'm stranded at work right now. The bike won't turn on.
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The dealer picked me and the bike up and I was given the demo bike again. The dealer was actually very nice and remorseful about this whole situation. One of the managers even expressed that he is mad at zero because they are making the dealer look bad. The joys of early adoption. I'm trying to stay positive but this might be a serious problem. The LEDS on the front of the BMS arnt blinking when the key switch is turned on or while I plugged in the charger. Zero suspects this is a problem with the BMS or perhaps the main bike boards of the 2013 bikes have some type of error. I love my Zero dearly but I'm starting to question my decision in purchasing it. I expected a few little things since these bikes are very new but this is a more serious problem.
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Sorry to hear it Dan.
Hang in there though. It sounds like you have great dealer support and the problem is manifesting itself plainly. Those kinds of problems are always easier to solve than the intermittent ones.
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Let's just hope that problems like this do not deter dealers from selling the Zero in the future. All it takes are stories about Zero reliability headaches to circulate in the industry news, on the internet, or by word-of-mouth between dealers, before some dealers will be reluctant to sell electric motorcycles.
That is what happened with my BMW dealer. When Brammo was trying to find dealers to sell the Enertia a few years ago, before they decided to market the bikes through Best Buy stores, they dropped by my BMW dealer and left a couple of Enertias there for them to try over the weekend. (I hear this story every time I ride my Zero to the shop.) Both bikes failed to run. Brammo picked them up, made repairs, returned them, but they still wouldn't work. So the shop, based upon that one experience with electric motorcycles, has become permanently down on the technology - and especially the idea of making money selling and servicing the bikes. :(
I might add that they are not too happy about selling Vespa motor scooters anymore, either. Vespa sales started out strong and have faded quite a bit lately at the shop. They tell me that the scooters are only really liked by college-age people, but college-age people either don't have enough money to purchase a premium-priced scooter, or they don't need a scooter to get to school because their parents have bought them a BMW car for transportation. ::)
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It is really important these days to make a first impression with a new product that is positive. The internet amplifies problems a lot. Consider all of the views on this thread compared to my own experiences. I am also a new Zero owner for the last 3 months now. I have had a perfect experience with my bike. It has never had any issues at all and always runs perfectly. But you don't find a thread here with a headline that is:
"My Zero Motorcycle is Perfect !!!"
The internet amplifies problems.
I used to ride Buells and liked to spend some time on the BadWeb forum but it started scaring me that Buells were all poorly engineered piles of failure because most of the threads were about issues that owners had. In my own experience I owned 2 Buell Ulysses models and put over 50K miles on the combination of them with only a few minor issues and typical of any motorcycle in my experience.
It is really important for anyone starting a new endeavor, especially related to technology, to be very proactive and aggressive in addressing issues because the internet forum and blogosphere amplifies any issues because you hear a lot about the failures but precious little about the successes.
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It is really important these days to make a first impression with a new product that is positive. The internet amplifies problems a lot. Consider all of the views on this thread compared to my own experiences. I am also a new Zero owner for the last 3 months now. I have had a perfect experience with my bike. It has never had any issues at all and always runs perfectly. But you don't find a thread here with a headline that is:
"My Zero Motorcycle is Perfect !!!"
The internet amplifies problems.
I used to ride Buells and liked to spend some time on the BadWeb forum but it started scaring me that Buells were all poorly engineered piles of failure because most of the threads were about issues that owners had. In my own experience I owned 2 Buell Ulysses models and put over 50K miles on the combination of them with only a few minor issues and typical of any motorcycle in my experience.
It is really important for anyone starting a new endeavor, especially related to technology, to be very proactive and aggressive in addressing issues because the internet forum and blogosphere amplifies any issues because you hear a lot about the failures but precious little about the successes.
No offense, but I don't think you would be posting that if your $14,000 bike broke after one day and then again a week and a half after it was allegedly fixed. This isn't a minor issue. The problem left me stranded twice now.
I hate to bring this up but I've built several ebikes in the past. My latest one features: Mountain bike frame, Hubzilla laced in a 26" rim, kelly 50/120 amp sensored brushless controller, 20s 10ah lipo, reversing switch, key ignition, main contactor, precharge circuit, full regen braking with ABS, cycle analyst, dc dc converter, headlight, tail light, everything fuse protected.. ect. This ebike is equally as sophisticated as a zero (minus the MBB and BMS). I used this bike to commute to my old job for EIGHT MONTHS. Never a single problem. This is part of the reason why I got a Zero. From my personal experience, electric vehicles were very reliable. At this point, I honestly think there is no excuse for the problems with my zero. This bike never should have made it past quality control. There is obviously a serious issue and this is the second time now I've been stranded somewhere. (not fun) I'm almost considering trying to return the zero and putting the money toward building my own two wheeled EV since that has been more reliable for me in the past.
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All of my working career was in electronic engineering. The last 20 or so in switchmode DC power supplies. Something we all were familiar with was "infant mortality" of semiconductor circuits.
After a device is built the failure rate is high in the first hours of operation. Then the rate drops and stays at a low level for a log period of usage. Finally, a long way out, the failure rate starts climbing again and reaches "end of life" for the device. This is very common and many people have drawn the curve in publications.
To try to lessen the effect of infant mortality, we would run every power supply under switching or steady full load in a high temperature chamber called a "burn-in room" for 12 hours standard or longer if a customer required it. Each supply was monitored while in burn-in and then run back through full test before shipping to detect any deviation from the test run before burn-in.
Even with all of this effort to root out IM, once in awhile a supply would be DOA on arrival at a customer's bench. Naturally, when marketing would get the phone call the first words out of the customer's mouth would be; "don't you guys turn these on before shipping"? We always took those comments in stride.
I seriously doubt that Zero has the facility and can afford to do that kind of testing and burn-in on the finished product, that we did. Hopefully, the manufacturers of the MBB, BMS, DC / DC converters, and chargers, do active burn-in on their products. If not, then shame on them, because they will have a higher rate of infant mortality >:(
The moral of this story is: Be lucky and don't be the unlucky guy who gets the device that experiences infant mortality. It's all a gamble, we just want the odds to be highly in our favor. Unfortunately it isn't always. I hope, once Zero gets the failures corrected, that you then have many trouble free, and happy, miles to go. :)
Trikester
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I must be really unlucky then because this bike wasn't even supposed to be mine. "My" bike got destroyed durning shipping due to poor packaging (accordong to my dealership) and Zero sent a new one out the next day. That new one that they sent out is mine right now. ( the broken one) Infant mortality is understandable. I'm just mad that the problem didnt get fixed the first time. I honestly think they don't even know what the problem is. I went in the shop when they were fixing it the first time and they had the entire bike taken apart. They had the front cover of the battery box off, the main contractor box was opened up. Neither of those had anything to do with getting the main bike board out which makes me think that they weren't even sure the MBB was the problem.
Hopefully I will here something today from Zero or the dealership regarding the repair status. If this problem can be fixed in a timely manner (fixed for good. None of this leaving me stranded crap) I will still be a pleased customer.
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Sounds to me like they just need to send you another bike!
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Regarding Trikester's comments: I am still upset about the ignition module on my 1985 Kawasaki GPz305. It was mounted directly above the cylinder head and would fail at 8000 miles, just like clockwork. When I would check the problem according to the service manual for the bike I would discover that a thermsister (sorry about the spelling, Trikester) would have failed. The cost to replace it was around $150. After having been stranded on the road a couple of times due to that failed and completely sealed (unrepairable) component, I traded the little GPz in on my first BMW. Anyway, that was my first encounter with a solid-state electrical component being stressed out by a motorcycle's environment. Ever since then I sort of expect motorcycle electrical components, especially wires, connectors, solid-state thingies, and especially batteries, to fail at inconvenient times and when you least expect it. Motorcycles are hell on electrical stuff. :(
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I was recently stuck at a Mexican restaurant in Borrego Springs CA on my 2001 Royal Enfield. It was running when I stopped and totally dead when I went to start it, after my lunch. My truck was five miles away at headquarters for a big antique motorcycle ride week. I borrowed a cell phone but our esteemed leader didn't have his cell turned on (unknown to me). After waiting about 1 1/2 hours for rescue, a kind bicyclist rode to his house and came back with his truck.
I didn't locate the problem until I got the bike into my shop, so my riding weekend ended up being on my brand new Zero FX. It turned out to be an unplugged connector behind the headlight. It was still partially engaged but not making contact. Since nothing could have unplugged it from its fully mated position (very strong detent) I decided it had been that way since the bike was new, and it slowly backed the rest of the way out, until it was no longer touching the ends of the pins. A manufacturing error that took 12 years to show up! :o
Trikester
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I feel sorry for DesignerDan. He was under the expectation that his $14000 brand-new motorcycle would work for at least the first month. Or if it didn't, it would get fixed and then work. At least his dealer gave him a loaner. It may be he was unlucky, maybe not. It remains to be seen if the 2013's will have better quality than the 2012's. I hope they do.
The 2012 Zero's had water corrosion/ingress problems, bad throttle assy's, leaky forks, and the notorious 'glitch'. A total of 3 recalls. Personally, I also had to have my motor replaced at just 2400 miles and during the glitch event my 3 month old bike sat in the shop for an entire month (no loaner) while Zero tried to figure out what to do. Somewhere during all these repairs they messed up the BMS programming resulting in a malfunctioning fuel gauge which took 3 more visits to the dealer and all kinds of calls direct to Zero to get sorted out. As bad as all that was, I'm still happy I got the Zero. But I would have been happier if Zero had done a better job of managing expectations up-front.
I was talking to my buddy who bought a Leaf about the same time I got my Zero. He's put twice as many miles on it, and has had no issues whatsoever. He's active on Leaf user forums, and reported to me that there are very few quality complaints. Seems like a Leaf is more complex than a Zero, so what's up?
Is it because Nissan makes millions of cars and has for decades- they have lots of resources and a deep knowledge base - the annual Leaf production is significant (10000/year). Whereas Zero is relatively green, relatively tiny, and they are knocking out much fewer units (~250 bikes/year)?
What would happen if a big-name motorcycle maker (with lots of resources and a deep knowledge base) bought Zero out, redesigned and ramped up production? Could that drop prices significantly? Improve quality?
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I just talked to the mechanic that's working on my bike. The BMS is dead. No CAN bus or lights blinking. He said it's entirely possible that this was the problem last time, and not the MBB that was suspected. And the bike worked with the new MBB by chance and not because the problem was actually fixed. Either way I'm not too happy about it. The BMS is arguably the most crucial part on the entire bike. It's what keeps the cells balanced so none of them get over discharged or over charged and causing thermal runaway and potentially a fire.
(Just look into the boeing dreamliner battery "fires". Even though the cause was NOT determined to be the BMS, it still proves what happens when large capacity cells, that are not thermally isolated, fail and start thermal runaway.)
So anyway I'm a little annoyed that part failed because for all I know, it could have done damage to my cells. Considering the battery is arguably the most expensive part on the bike, this is nothing to take lightly. Such overcharging or over discharging would do internal damage to the cells. This would reduce the life of them, generate more heat while they were in use, affect the capacity, and cause more voltage drop under load.
I don't think the cells were damaged though. (hopefully) I think the BMS just stopped working. The mechanic said Zero express shipped a new BMS and I should have the bike back sometime next week.
Looking forward: I wonder if Zero should test drive all new bikes and put like 200 miles on them before shipping them to the dealerships. It sounds to me that all of the 2013 problems could have easily been avoided if Zero tested the bikes more extensively before shipment. I would much rather have a "new" bike with 200 miles on it than a new bike with 0 miles on it but breaks after one day.
Any thoughts? Surely there is a solution to increase quality control. What's more expensive? Increasing quality control or having all these customers having to bring the bikes back to the dealer because of problems?
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I would have to agree that Zero should perform a test ride before shipping their bikes off. Perhaps they do that. If they do so, it might be a good thing to mention in any product description regarding their models. I recall that some British brands during the 1950's and 1960's claimed to test ride every new motorcycle for a few miles before sticking it the shipping crate. Of course that takes time and a couple of paid dedicated test riders. But I am not sure that is the standard in the industry any more. As you know, motorcycle odometers on new motorcycles come with just about zero miles on the clock when you buy a new IC motorcycle. I can recall when a new motorcycle odometer would show between 3 and 4 miles, indicating that the bike was either test ridden by the factory, or more likely, test ridden by a tech at the selling retailer as part of the set-up procedure. I am not sure this is done any more. Perhaps because buyers want to see a new bike show 0 miles on the clock. It makes them feel like they are riding a virgin. ;)
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My bike came with 2 miles on the clock. I would think Zero runs them on rollers for a few miles just to make sure all is well. I'm not convinced they are monitoring everything during this process as mine showed up with rear wheel bearings that took power consumption to 180 whr/mi in the first few miles as the bearings eat themselves alive. Zero was very quick to get this problem addressed but I agree that a young small company may not have the depth to weed out IM.
For the record, my first Zero had zero problems. The only reason it was serviced was an on site visit for a recall (which had not cause me any problems). My second Zero had two issues right out of the gate with both related to the suspension supplier and not core Zero technology.
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The dealer should be doing a test ride as part of the PDI but whether going round the block a couple times would show these problems i don't know.
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The dealer should be doing a test ride as part of the PDI but whether going round the block a couple times would show these problems i don't know.
I agree. Any after-assembly test riding should be instrumented and performed at the factory, so that the retail dealer doesn't have to resolve any electronic issues, for which they may not have the equipment or expertise to deal with.
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My bike left the crate with 5 miles on the ODO; however the clicking Issue showed up at 15 miles... I was just thinking that I should have had the dealer keep the bike for a few days, maybe demo it out just to shake everything loose then I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in..
over all it seems like a minor issue, just hope it gets resolved quickly
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I might add that when my 2012 S had its glitch fixed at the factory last summer, Zero put 200 miles on it over a weekend to be sure it was now working OK.
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In my collecting and riding restored antique motorcycles I've learned (and others have also told me) to not buy a restored bike if it doesn't have at least a hundred miles on the rebuilt engine. Many engine problems would have shown up by then.
Trikester
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interesting question on electric bikes to quality ensure. I had a bad run on a 2010 (after all BMS) and now with the 2011 all good. These are not ICE engines - so not really much running in or issues after 100 or 200 miles...
seems overall the reliability has gone up significantly from 2009 to now 2013. 2012 so seem to be a very "stable" year. to early to tell for 2013.
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Got a reply from Zero.
The new BMS didn't appear to fix the problem.
Zero still has no idea what the problem is.
Zero might be sending someone to Florida to diagnose the bike.
Zero totally blew off my question asking "Why didn't I receive a new bike when the problem occurred for the second time?"
Is it just me or is this absolutely ridiculous? I understand they are a small company but it should not take this long to diagnose this bike. If lives depended on it, those engineers would have been able to recreate the problem on a different bike within hours. All this shows is that Zero doesn't want to devote their time and make fixing my bike a high priority.
Consider this quote from their website:
"As a premium brand, Zero designs each motorcycle with the sort of quality and integrity that inspires an exceptional riding experience."
Are you f*cking kidding me!? Premium!? Last time I checked, this is not how a premium brand would be handling this situation.
That quote is very deceiving. As a buyer, I feel like I've been tricked/scammed. My bike was obviously missing the "quality" part.
Overall, my Zero experience has been horrible. They didn't package my first bike correctly and it got damaged during transit (according to the dealer) and now this bike has just been one giant headache that left me stranded twice now. Zero doesn't really care about me; the only reason why they are even trying to fix this problem is to shut me up so I stop posting on forums. lol Can you imagine if I hadn't come across this forum? Zero would have zero (pun intended) motivation for fixing the problem in a timely matter.
I promise I'm not just a person the complains a lot when things don't go my way. I've tried to be patient and understanding but now I'm genuinely upset.
I posted a nice review of the '12 demo bike since I enjoy it a lot.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2826.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2826.0)
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You do have loan bike while they fix it.
I think they should either replace yours or take it back to factory for fixing and testing.
I know you have lemon laws in USA if vechicle has multiple faults since new.
http://www.lemonlawusa.com/ (http://www.lemonlawusa.com/)
Qualification: 3 unsuccessful repairs or 15 calendar days within 24 months from delivery. Notification/Trigger: Written notice by certified or express mail to manufacturer who has 10 calendar days for final repair attempt after delivery to designated dealer. State has certified guidelines for arbitration. State-run arbitration mechanism available. Law specifically applies to leased vehicles.
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Having been an electro-mechanical technician in the past, sending a known good bike as a replacement and getting the problem child in-house where it can be troubleshot not at their leisure but put in a "que" makes the most sense initially. But, I suspect sending a tech out to Florida is a really good way of fixing the problem and getting the staff more training. So, yes. You don't get a new bike, but you should get a fixed bike and an "upgraded" dealership which hopefully will work out better in the long run.
Your frustration is justified.
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Dan,
You said Florida..... Our lemon laws WORK. Do the written notification to Zero as required stating the number of times (as required by the law). Basically, do a form letter right from the simple text of the law. You will get a response!
With respect to the other posts, Zero issues with my 2012 and at least two with my 2013. The significant upgrade has come with a few issues but I will still buy the 13 even knowing what I know today. It is that good.
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There is a representative from Zero there today, he's calling me later today (he's at your Dealer, they flew him there for your bike) he's also going to assist me with my "clicking" problem.
I think you just have an extra helping of bad luck here; it sounds like Zero is doing quite a bit to help you resolve it (even flying out a tech from cali to FL) and your local dealer gave you a loaner bike, that's pretty generous of them.
I bet if you press the issue you could get a replacement bike; just be insistent if that is the route you wish to go.
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Ugh what a day.
I was on my way to the dealership to make a scene and freak out about my bike when I got a call from Zero Customer Service.
"Hi your bike is fixed... fully operational... the problem was a loose bolt on the main pack fuse... we're really sorry... the new Zero accessory line is coming out soon... Pick out one and I'll send it to you as compensation for this issue... You can pick up your bike whenever you want... please send us the data logs for the first few cycles on the bike so we can make sure everything is working properly... ok bye"
^Not word for word but you get the gist of the conversation.
So I was pretty thrilled that I was getting my bike back and a free accessory.
Well I get to the dealership and it turns out the bike wasn't ready. It was still taken apart and a new problem has presented itself: the headlight and dashboard come on when you plug the charger in.
The dealer tried sending me home but I refused to leave until I talked to Chris from Zero. According the Chris this is the timeline of events:
The first main bike board was to blame for the original problem. That component was faulty and failed. While the mechanic at my dealership was replacing the old MBB with a new one he was instructed by Zero to disconnect the battery cables before working on the bike. While he was loosening the bolts he failed to use a second wrench to prevent the "studs" (for lack of a better word) from also spinning and loosening the nuts on the inside of the main contactor box. So after a week of me riding it the nut for the main battery fuse was either too loose or fell off completely (Chris didn't specify) resulting in the bike not turning on and also frying the new MBB. (Not sure how that would do that but that's what Chris said) Either way, Chris replaced the MMB, BMS, and charge controller.
So to bottom line this:
Zero was responsible for the first problem and had the mechanic fix it but while having the mechanic fix it, he was the sole cause of the second problem.
As much as I want to unleash all of my rage against the mechanic for f*cking up my bike, it really wasn't his fault. This stuff is completely new to him and how was he supposed to know to use a second wrench to keep the studs from spinning. He probably thought they were stationary and it was okay to apply torque to them to take off the battery cables.
My bike was so close to being fixed but then it was having the problem of the whole bike turning on when it is plugged in. Chris said they have seen this problem before on previous? bikes and basically it's a glitch. He was in contact with all the engineers and they decided enough was enough and they want the whole bike back for further analysis. Which means they are going to be shipping me a new bike once my dealership calls me on monday to update some information.
I'm pretty bummed it's going to be a little while now before I have a 2013 Zero again but I'm also glad I won't have franken bike anymore.
There's a lot of unanswered questions like:
Why did Zero go through all this trouble and waste money instead of replacing the bike sooner?
How could a loose fuse fry the second main bike board (And possibly BMS)
Why is there a third problem with the bike now!?
I guess it doesn't matter from this point on since I'm getting a new bike.
I'll keep you guys updated. Zero is trying to resolve the problem and it was nice of Chris to come down and try to fix my bike.
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My general impression is that Zero is working hard to take care of all their customers but that they're badly overworked or understaffed. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of these quality issues as the first wave of bikes go out .. and Zero just doesn't have the resources to take care of them in a timely fashion.
Hiring support staff to keep up with an increasing number of sales is obviously expensive .. but I think these initial quality issues (and return of the encoding problems on some 2012 bikes?) will be even more expensive for Zero.
Depending on where the nut fell and how the MBB was mounted it could have caused a short on the board and destroyed some critical component.
Unfortunate that Zero's on-site support staff couldn't get the bike repaired swiftly but I think replacing the bike is the right thing to do. Glad you have a resolution now, and hopefully you'll be riding again very soon.
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Dan,
Good to hear that you will soon have a new bike that works.
I think that this might be typical learning curve for Zero Dealers. They are all motorcycle shops so they know how to adjust mechanical things, install brake pads and tires, but these people have never worked on high voltage battery packs, or a lot of sensitive electronics.
Good luck with the new bike, I expect you will soon be on the road and happily motoring along.
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Dan,
Good to hear that you will soon have a new bike that works.
I think that this might be typical learning curve for Zero Dealers. They are all motorcycle shops so they know how to adjust mechanical things, install brake pads and tires, but these people have never worked on high voltage battery packs, or a lot of sensitive electronics.
Good luck with the new bike, I expect you will soon be on the road and happily motoring along.
On the other hand, Zero dealer technicians are getting some very valuable on the job training that should be useful to them in the future. :)
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Let's hope we don't hear of an electrocution at a dealership. The 2013, 103 volt operating level could sure do the job. :o
Trikester
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Yep that is really a problem and if there is once a battery short cut and an electric arc that can burn you badly Laws will grow like mushrooms.
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Let's hope we don't hear of an electrocution at a dealership. The 2013, 103 volt operating level could sure do the job. :o
Trikester
Hey Trikester, 103 V DC is'nt too much... My ebikes are operating at 100.87B and 126V full charge and it is not a pain to touch .. in revanche, the 120V ac IS !.. in fact 120V ac adn 120V dc is the same RMS voltage, but the AC have peak to peak too :o... and it is about +170V and -170V peak so it'S 340V peak to peak... yes, durecty out of all our 120V AC socket !... and the human bosy feel the voltage difference so between the +170V swing to -170V the human body does feel 340V or.. 340V equivalent voltage of DC but it's happening 60 time a second...
so.... 103Vdc isn't too painfull in my opinion
As well i can not state the same as for the 400V dc EV.. ! :o :o ouch.. the arking would make your pain worst!
On the other hand if you take a sausage adn fix an electrode on each end ad conect it to the 2013 battery, you wil fry it... because of the salt inside and also because the moisture is higher than the skin is... so the resistance is way lower! I did that on my 100.8V ebike and the power measured going thru the sausage was about 170Watts wich is enough to make it fry
Doc
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Brilliant Doc! Only you would use a battery pack to cook a sausage!
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Ive had similar experience, I noticed that my rear brake didn't have much power at all so took it back to the dealer and they diagnosed the problem as a damaged caliper mount. Zero sent down a new swinging arm and i was loaned an X to get me around in the meantime. Unfortunately it took a month but at least i had electric transport. The problem couldn't really have been resolved better (aside from using a faster courier!).
Hmmmm ... I guess I should try my rear brake sometime to see if it works ..... ;D
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I do not currently own a Zero. Just out of curiosity, based upon some others problems with their Zero motorcycles, I looked up the lemon law in the State of Washington. The motorcycle lemon law applies specifically to motorcycles with a displacement of 750cc or greater. Since the law was written for ICE motorcycles, and if it ever came to that hypothetical point where a Washington owner had a lemon Zero, then there would need to be a case made to the arbiter, hearing the case in Washington State. Some sort of apples to apples comparison would need to be made in order to describe the characteristics of a Zero in terms of equivalency to an ICE engine. That is if the arbiter would even hear a case about an EM.
I am not a lawyer though it just seems to me that this would be the logical progression of events in that case. So in the spirit of being proactive, does anyone know of a conversion method of some combination of the specs of a Zero S or DS maybe into power of an equivalent ICE and what the resulting required displacement would be? I have read where people say that the Zero S seems like a whatever-brand 650 or 750, so I think an argument such as this regarding a Zero in Washington would be borderline as being covered under lemon law.
I could be completely off base, since I am not an attorney. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts about this, or whether their own state has a minimum engine size in order to be covered under lemon laws?
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I don't know a thing about lemon laws, but I would classify the 2012 Zeros as being equivalent to 300cc-500cc IC motorcycles. They have 29 hp and 40 lb.-ft. of torque. The 2013 models have something like 54 hp and 68 lb-ft of torque and I would classify their performance as equivalent to IC motorcycles in the 500cc to 650cc range (in my opinion).
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I'd be making the argument based on cost instead.
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According to Zero the bike is finished being built and tested. I tried to work with my dealer to get upgraded to the 11.4 kwh battery for all this bullshit. My dealer told me that zero agreed to send an 11.4 at no additional cost. Well somewhere, someone lied. Zero will not be offering any compensation. Not even a discount on the 11.4 kwh. I still want the 11.4 so I'll complain to my dealer about it and they might be able to give me a discount. At this point Zero is screwing me and my dealer over so hard. This whole experience has been non-stop bullshit from Zero. Their shipping carrier destroyed my first bike, they sold me a factory defective bike, they tried fixing it but failed, they tried fixing it again but failed again, then they claimed they were all out of bikes, and now they are basically telling me to just deal with it. Based on this experience I cannot recommend Zero to anyone. I understand they are a start up but at what point do you say "enough is enough, I don't care that you're a start up, either treat your customers with good service or get out of the game."
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http://blogs.motorcyclistonline.com/2013-zero-s-streetfighter-34739.html (http://blogs.motorcyclistonline.com/2013-zero-s-streetfighter-34739.html)
Friday May 3rd, they have problems with charging.
Saturday May 4th, Zero replaces the faulty Zero S with another Zero S.
Great service to the media.... not so much for consumers.
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Don't even get me started lol What I want to know is did they try turning the bike on!? When my bike was having the problem, I could also hear clicking from the chargers (as if they were trying to turn on but wouldn't/couldn't) just as the review described. It could be the exact same problem as my bike. Could mulitple bikes be infected? Hopefully they find the problem and prevent it from happening to future bikes.
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Got the bike today. It works so that's good. The dealership just gave it to me and SAID "YOU'RE GETTING THE UPGRADE FOR FREE" and let me drive off (it's the upgraded 11.4) about an hour goes by and the dealership freaks out and calls me and tells me they messed up and I was supposed to pay. No big deal I go back and give them the $2000. They were all pissed off at me. I'm not sure how this is my fault. When someone tells you you're getting an upgrade for free, you don't question it. Lol Then Chris told my dealer I was posting on forums and said I asked Zero for an "accessory top bag", which isn't true. I had never asked Zero for a free accessory. Not through phone or email. And the emails will back that up. Words can't even describe the situation. What started off as me posting on a forum asking people how to fix the Zero turned into Zero thinking I'm out to destroy their company by posting online about the situation. I honestly regret posting online because now my character is under attack. It's ashame that when someone posts about a problem with a product it turns into the company interpreting that as an all out attack.
Idk if you guys agree but how I see it is: If Zero didn't want me posting about the problems the bike was having couldn't they have just fixed or replaced the bike in a more efficient manner? This isn't rocket science. So much of my time and money, my dealers time and money, and Zeros time and money was wasted on resolving this issue. It's not my (customers) fault that their course of action for fixing the issue resulted in everyone losing. I don't appreciate being seen as a bad customer for something that was completely out of my control (other than posting on the forums but does that really make me a bad customer?)
This whole ordeal was so exhausting I don't even have the EV grin anymore. Zero thinks I'm out to get them. My dealer is mad at me for their screw up. Ugh today was not a good day. Honestly if anyone reading this has any problems with their Zeros your best bet is to keep it off the forums. Otherwise you might be labeled as a problem customer.
Tl;dr
My dealer screwed up and I got blamed by Zero and my dealer's for the mistake.
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l disagree , the forum is good place for information and education, mostly zero has been very good with warranty problems, I want to know if zero, dealer or customer is doing good or bad. There are some who love EV with a passion, and other its just a job.
I would have not paid for upgrade so soon if told it was free. would have made them wait for request in writing, and then reply dealer said it was free. Lol. Let them feel what it like to wait.
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l disagree , the forum is good place for information and education, mostly zero has been very good with warranty problems, I want to know if zero, dealer or customer is doing good or bad. There are some who love EV with a passion, and other its just a job.
I would have not paid for upgrade so soon if told it was free. would have made them wait for request in writing, and then reply dealer said it was free. Lol. Let them feel what it like to wait.
Damn that sounds pretty harsh though! I hated when they made me wait so it would be wrong to do it to them. The financial guy was begging me to come back to the dealership and when I got there he looked like he was about to cry. My guess is his boss really laid into him for telling me it was free and having me fill out all of the paperwork and drive away. What I don't get is why they are mad at me! It's not like I tried deceiving them! I had the money ready but the financial guy said "you are really lucky because you are getting it for free". So I honestly thought maybe the dealer was picking up the slack since Zero wasn't offering any discounts.
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Wow. That's pretty unprofessional of the dealer to "forget" a little detail like, oh, asking the customer to pay $2000. If they do that on a regular basis they won't be in business long, but probably they'll have sold all their bikes at least..
One of the best uses of forums is to aggregate user experiences. Would the glitch have been fixed initially if we hadn't all been posting online about experiencing it? Maybe .. maybe not.
There's a not-terribly fine line between posting about problems and seeking resolution and slagging the manufacturer or (especially) a dealer, of course..
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Strange they have replacement bike with upgraded battery for you. Maybe zero give you upgrade but dealer want you to pay , make easy profit ? Strange paper worked signed and only after you asked to pay. Very disorganised.
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Strange they have replacement bike with upgraded battery for you. Maybe zero give you upgrade but dealer want you to pay , make easy profit ? Strange paper worked signed and only after you asked to pay. Very disorganised.
When Zero told me they were sending a replacement bike I asked if they could send the 11.4kwh and I would pay the difference. I then asked my dealer if they (dealer) could offer a discount on it because I got an email saying $800 off a new Zero. My dealer called me back and said I was getting the upgrade for free. A week later Zero called me and said it wasn't free. Then I go to the dealer to pick it up and they were saying it was free again.
So apparently no one knows what the heck was going on. Huge lack of communication.
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Sometimes, when I have posted a question on this forum about a problem I was having, I was contacted by Zero engineering shortly afterward with a suggestion, a question about more information, or a solution. I consider that to be service I could never get from a big motorcycle co. I'm glad they are reading this forum.
I used to post on a Yamaha TW200 forum - never was contacted by Yamaha engineering. ;)
Trikester
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This sounds more like a dealership problem to me. Some dealerships are just poor. Poor customer service after buying the bike, poor service of the bike, and poor management. I would guess the majority of the issues you've had with your bike other than the initial problem were all caused by the dealership and their inability to deal with the problems your bike had.
Last year this happened to me. GM Canada will pay for Volt owners gas costs if your car is in for warranty service and you need a rental. I've been in twice for warranty work and have been compensated for my gas costs. The first time it took over a month to get my cheque because the service manager wouldn't cut a cheque until GM paid him. Okay, I can sort of understand that, I understand how hard it can be to get big corporations to give moneys out instead of take moneys in. The second time It was twice as long. Finally the service guys said I could come in to get my cheque. When I did and they didn't have it the service manager came out and said I wasn't going to get it because I already picked it up! What was I trying to pull he accused! Naturally I was shocked at the accusation. After 10 minutes of back and forth the service manager finally realized that I had been in for 2 different services and he went into his office and gave me the cheque. No apology, he never stopped being mad at me for his own mistake, and to this day he won't meet my eye. Poor management resulting in poor service reflecting poorly on the brand. GM Canada is doing great things with this program for customer service and customer relations and this one service manager is wiping out all that goodwill out with his piss poor attitude. I feel sorry for the staff under him. They've all been very helpful despite their boss.
I'd bet something similar is happening with your case. I'd bet Zero is doing all they reasonably can and the weak link lies somewhere at the dealership. I wouldn't stop expressing your situation on the forum because of someone at the dealerships opinion.
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Sometimes, when I have posted a question on this forum about a problem I was having, I was contacted by Zero engineering shortly afterward with a suggestion, a question about more information, or a solution. I consider that to be service I could never get from a big motorcycle co. I'm glad they are reading this forum.
I used to post on a Yamaha TW200 forum - never was contacted by Yamaha engineering. ;)
Trikester
This has been the case with me, I've been emailing a guy at Zero almost daily; I'm very happy with the support I've gotten; they fed-ex'd a part to me & are even now talking about flying to my location to correct an issue.