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[DesignerDan]

Got a reply from Zero.

The new BMS didn't appear to fix the problem.

Zero still has no idea what the problem is.

Zero might be sending someone to Florida to diagnose the bike.

Zero totally blew off my question asking "Why didn't I receive a new bike when the problem occurred for the second time?"


Is it just me or is this absolutely ridiculous? I understand they are a small company but it should not take this long to diagnose this bike. If lives depended on it, those engineers would have been able to recreate the problem on a different bike within hours. All this shows is that Zero doesn't want to devote their time and make fixing my bike a high priority.

Consider this quote from their website:

"As a premium brand, Zero designs each motorcycle with the sort of quality and integrity that inspires an exceptional riding experience."

Are you f*cking kidding me!? Premium!? Last time I checked, this is not how a premium brand would be handling this situation.

That quote is very deceiving. As a buyer, I feel like I've been tricked/scammed. My bike was obviously missing the "quality" part.   

Overall, my Zero experience has been horrible. They didn't package my first bike correctly and it got damaged during transit (according to the dealer) and now this bike has just been one giant headache that left me stranded twice now. Zero doesn't really care about me; the only reason why they are even trying to fix this problem is to shut me up so I stop posting on forums. lol Can you imagine if I hadn't come across this forum? Zero would have zero (pun intended) motivation for fixing the problem in a timely matter.

I promise I'm not just a person the complains a lot when things don't go my way. I've tried to be patient and understanding but now I'm genuinely upset.

I posted a nice review of the '12 demo bike since I enjoy it a lot.

http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2826.0

[firepower]

You do have  loan bike while they fix it.
I think they should either replace yours or take it back to factory for fixing and testing.
I know you have lemon laws in USA if vechicle has multiple faults since new.

http://www.lemonlawusa.com/

Qualification: 3 unsuccessful repairs or 15 calendar days within 24 months from delivery. Notification/Trigger: Written notice by certified or express mail to manufacturer who has 10 calendar days for final repair attempt after delivery to designated dealer. State has certified guidelines for arbitration. State-run arbitration mechanism available. Law specifically applies to leased vehicles.

[jazclrint]

Having been an electro-mechanical technician in the past, sending a known good bike as a replacement and getting the problem child in-house where it can be troubleshot not at their leisure but put in a "que" makes the most sense initially.  But, I suspect sending a tech out to Florida is a really good way of fixing the problem and getting the staff more training.  So, yes.  You don't get a new bike, but you should get a fixed bike and an "upgraded" dealership which hopefully will work out better in the long run.

Your frustration is justified.

[lolachampcar]

Dan,

You said Florida.....  Our lemon laws WORK.  Do the written notification to Zero as required stating the number of times (as required by the law).  Basically, do a form letter right from the simple text of the law.  You will get a response!

With respect to the other posts, Zero issues with my 2012 and at least two with my 2013.  The significant upgrade has come with a few issues but I will still buy the 13 even knowing what I know today.  It is that good.

[TargeT]

There is a representative from Zero there today, he's calling me later today (he's at your Dealer, they flew him there for your bike) he's also going to assist me with my "clicking" problem.

I think you just have an extra helping of bad luck here; it sounds like Zero is doing quite a bit to help you resolve it (even flying out a tech from cali to FL) and your local dealer gave you a loaner bike, that's pretty generous of them.

I bet if you press the issue you could get a replacement bike; just be insistent if that is the route you wish to go.

[DesignerDan]

Ugh what a day.

I was on my way to the dealership to make a scene and freak out about my bike when I got a call from Zero Customer Service.

"Hi your bike is fixed... fully operational... the problem was a loose bolt on the main pack fuse... we're really sorry... the new Zero accessory line is coming out soon... Pick out one and I'll send it to you as compensation for this issue... You can pick up your bike whenever you want... please send us the data logs for the first few cycles on the bike so we can make sure everything is working properly... ok bye"

^Not word for word but you get the gist of the conversation.

So I was pretty thrilled that I was getting my bike back and a free accessory.

Well I get to the dealership and it turns out the bike wasn't ready. It was still taken apart and a new problem has presented itself: the headlight and dashboard come on when you plug the charger in.

The dealer tried sending me home but I refused to leave until I talked to Chris from Zero. According the Chris this is the timeline of events:

The first main bike board was to blame for the original problem. That component was faulty and failed. While the mechanic at my dealership was replacing the old MBB with a new one he was instructed by Zero to disconnect the battery cables before working on the bike. While he was loosening the bolts he failed to use a second wrench to prevent the "studs" (for lack of a better word) from also spinning and loosening the nuts on the inside of the main contactor box. So after a week of me riding it the nut for the main battery fuse was either too loose or fell off completely (Chris didn't specify) resulting in the bike not turning on and also frying the new MBB. (Not sure how that would do that but that's what Chris said) Either way, Chris replaced the MMB, BMS, and charge controller.

So to bottom line this:

Zero was responsible for the first problem and had the mechanic fix it but while having the mechanic fix it, he was the sole cause of the second problem.

As much as I want to unleash all of my rage against the mechanic for f*cking up my bike, it really wasn't his fault. This stuff is completely new to him and how was he supposed to know to use a second wrench to keep the studs from spinning. He probably thought they were stationary and it was okay to apply torque to them to take off the battery cables.

My bike was so close to being fixed but then it was having the problem of the whole bike turning on when it is plugged in. Chris said they have seen this problem before on previous? bikes and basically it's a glitch. He was in contact with all the engineers and they decided enough was enough and they want the whole bike back for further analysis. Which means they are going to be shipping me a new bike once my dealership calls me on monday to update some information.

I'm pretty bummed it's going to be a little while now before I have a 2013 Zero again but I'm also glad I won't have franken bike anymore.

There's a lot of unanswered questions like:

 Why did Zero go through all this trouble and waste money instead of replacing the bike sooner?

How could a loose fuse fry the second main bike board (And possibly BMS)

Why is there a third problem with the bike now!?

I guess it doesn't matter from this point on since I'm getting a new bike.

I'll keep you guys updated. Zero is trying to resolve the problem and it was nice of Chris to come down and try to fix my bike.

[protomech]

My general impression is that Zero is working hard to take care of all their customers but that they're badly overworked or understaffed. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a number of these quality issues as the first wave of bikes go out .. and Zero just doesn't have the resources to take care of them in a timely fashion.

Hiring support staff to keep up with an increasing number of sales is obviously expensive .. but I think these initial quality issues (and return of the encoding problems on some 2012 bikes?) will be even more expensive for Zero.

Depending on where the nut fell and how the MBB was mounted it could have caused a short on the board and destroyed some critical component.

Unfortunate that Zero's on-site support staff couldn't get the bike repaired swiftly but I think replacing the bike is the right thing to do. Glad you have a resolution now, and hopefully you'll be riding again very soon.

[WindRider]

Dan,

Good to hear that you will soon have a new bike that works.

I think that this might be typical learning curve for Zero Dealers.  They are all motorcycle shops so they know how to adjust mechanical things, install brake pads and tires, but these people have never worked on high voltage battery packs, or a lot of sensitive electronics.

Good luck with the new bike, I expect you will soon be on the road and happily motoring along.

[Richard230]

Dan,

Good to hear that you will soon have a new bike that works.

I think that this might be typical learning curve for Zero Dealers.  They are all motorcycle shops so they know how to adjust mechanical things, install brake pads and tires, but these people have never worked on high voltage battery packs, or a lot of sensitive electronics.

Good luck with the new bike, I expect you will soon be on the road and happily motoring along.

On the other hand, Zero dealer technicians are getting some very valuable on the job training that should be useful to them in the future.   

[trikester]

Let's hope we don't hear of an electrocution at a dealership. The 2013, 103 volt operating level could sure do the job.

Trikester

[BSDThw]

Yep that is really a problem and if there is once a battery short cut and an electric arc that can burn you badly Laws will grow like mushrooms.

[Doctorbass]

Let's hope we don't hear of an electrocution at a dealership. The 2013, 103 volt operating level could sure do the job.

Trikester

Hey Trikester, 103 V DC is'nt too much...  My ebikes are operating at  100.87B and 126V full charge and it is not a pain to touch .. in revanche, the 120V ac IS !.. in fact 120V ac adn 120V dc is the same RMS voltage, but the AC have peak to peak too ... and it is about +170V and -170V peak so it'S 340V peak to peak... yes, durecty out of all our 120V AC socket !... and the human bosy feel the voltage difference so between the +170V swing to -170V the human body does feel 340V or.. 340V equivalent voltage of DC but it's happening 60 time a second...

so.... 103Vdc isn't too painfull in my opinion

As well i can not state the same as for the 400V dc EV.. ! ouch.. the arking would make your pain worst!

On the other hand if you take a sausage adn fix an electrode on each end ad conect it to the 2013 battery, you wil fry it... because of the salt inside and also because the moisture is higher than the skin is... so the resistance is way lower! I did that on my 100.8V ebike and the power measured going thru the sausage was about 170Watts wich is enough to make it fry

Doc

[NoiseBoy]

Brilliant Doc!  Only you would use a battery pack to cook a sausage!

[nicktulloh]

Ive had similar experience, I noticed that my rear brake didn't have much power at all so took it back to the dealer and they diagnosed the problem as a damaged caliper mount.  Zero sent down a new swinging arm and i was loaned an X to get me around in the meantime.  Unfortunately it took a month but at least i had electric transport.  The problem couldn't really have been resolved better (aside from using a faster courier!).

Hmmmm ...  I guess I should try my rear brake sometime to see if it works .....

[SK]

I do not currently own a Zero. Just out of curiosity, based upon some others problems with their Zero motorcycles, I looked up the lemon law in the State of Washington. The motorcycle lemon law applies specifically to motorcycles with a displacement of 750cc or greater. Since the law was written for ICE motorcycles, and if it ever came to that hypothetical point where a Washington owner had a lemon Zero, then there would need to be a case made to the arbiter, hearing the case in Washington State. Some sort of apples to apples comparison would need to be made in order to describe the characteristics of a Zero in terms of equivalency to an ICE engine. That is if the arbiter would even hear a case about an EM.

I am not a lawyer though it just seems to me that this would be the logical progression of events in that case. So in the spirit of being proactive, does anyone know of a conversion method of some combination of the specs of a Zero S or DS maybe into power of an equivalent ICE and what the resulting required displacement would be? I have read where people say that the Zero S seems like a whatever-brand 650 or 750, so I think an argument such as this regarding a Zero in Washington would be borderline as being covered under lemon law.

I could be completely off base, since I am not an attorney. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts about this, or whether their own state has a minimum engine size in order to be covered under lemon laws?