ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: CessnaDriver on January 15, 2020, 12:48:52 AM
-
Mostly I'm posting to vent. Who knows. Maybe others have experienced this and can offer insight. My 2017 SR has been diagnosed as having a defective motor controller. It started going into thermal protection when it was 40* outside. 1st stage thermal protection shouldn't kick in until the motor reaches 255*. I put my hand over the motor and it feels maybe 80*? Dealer took it in and like I said, they said I need to cough up $1826.25 for a new motor controller. I called Zero and they aren't willing to help on any of it. It's out of warranty and they won't cover it. I asked if they could at least meet me half way. Nope. They aren't willing to budge one bit. Welp, electric motorcycles were fun while they lasted, but I'm going back to internal combustion. I may part this one out unless someone has any other suggestions.
Thanks.
-
That sucks, but parting it out will lose you way more money than paying for the controller.
They should be informing you better about this, since it's an expensive replacement, though.
-
I can't imagine the bike is worth much, especially with a bad controller. But even in top condition, maybe $9k? As is, $7k? I could probably get that out of the parts
-
You're going to lose more money no matter what you do by not replacing the controller versus by replacing the controller.
-
Not if the fix isn’t guaranteed.
-
Is the sensor reading correctly? That seems the most likely if the bike is otherwise running.
Of course, I don't know if the controller includes the sensor or not.
-Crissa
-
Sensor was my first suspect. Dealer says it only needs a motor controller, according to their conversation with Zero.
-
So the controller still works, but goes into thermal protection. Aren't there small repair companies who can fix these controllers, know the common bugs? I believe these types of controllers are also used in industrial transportation.
-
Repair microsoldering is generally a slow, tedious process which costs more than these parts are worth.
Even thousand-dollar parts. x-x
-
So the controller still works, but goes into thermal protection. Aren't there small repair companies who can fix these controllers, know the common bugs? I believe these types of controllers are also used in industrial transportation.
I don't know who would fix Zero controllers. But there are several companies that do repair automotive modules. Here is one example. (https://www.shop.modulerepairpro.com/) It will not hurt to give them a call. Perhaps they can direct you to somebody who can, if they cannot.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
This is a topic we will eventually have to grapple with as the bikes enter their second decade in the field, but right now it is also my understanding that it’s too expensive.
The company cited above only lists low voltage applications which will not be in the same tier as EV power switching components.
The shop that can perform these repairs must be equipped to retest them with safeguards against fires.
-
Any idea what it takes to replace this? Wondering if it's in the purview of DIY. The unofficial manual is silent on it.
-
I don't know of many that needed to be changed. The chargers, yes the DC-DC yes but not many controllers.
I know it sucks but best advise is replace it and ride it. Put 30k-40k miles on it and make your money back in gas savings.
You will lose your butt and mind if you try to part this thing out.
-
Yeah, I guess I'll keep it. Still mad, but after having a chance to sleep on it, I came to the realization that after 27k miles and beating the p*** out of it (gunning it everytime a light turned green), I was just asking too much from it. God, it's a fun motorcycle. But, you can't expect them to hold up at top performance without something breaking eventually. Something had to give. Maybe I should have expected it, given the benefit of hindsight. Maybe someone can learn something from my expensive mistake. Take it easy with the right hand grip ;)
-
Any idea what it takes to replace this? Wondering if it's in the purview of DIY. The unofficial manual is silent on it.
I'm the maintainer of the unofficial manual, so I'm soliciting improvements here. And sometimes I don't write about something because I'm not sure how to.
The fact is, the component is available generically, but requires reprogramming for Zero's, mostly around the IPM design on 2016+ models.
I'm not sure what else to tell you, but the controller is a fire hazard if it's installed wrong, so I'm very careful about advice about it.
-
Thanks. For $325, I'll just have the dealer worry about the labor 😅
$1500 in parts is hard to swallow... but beats having the thing catch fire
-
Yeah, I guess I'll keep it. Still mad, but after having a chance to sleep on it, I came to the realization that after 27k miles and beating the p*** out of it (gunning it everytime a light turned green), I was just asking too much from it. God, it's a fun motorcycle. But, you can't expect them to hold up at top performance without something breaking eventually. Something had to give. Maybe I should have expected it, given the benefit of hindsight. Maybe someone can learn something from my expensive mistake. Take it easy with the right hand grip ;)
The thing is, when Zero checks your logs and there's a warranty claim, how you ride it is visible in those logs to the trained eye. So they might have been a little tight-lipped or even rebuffed because of something they identified.
I don't really know, but I do try to train myself on log-reading from time to time (especially now that I'm turning that stuff into data I can feed into generic data tools), and things like hot starts and so on do stick out.
-
FWIW I tried to find a public priced listing for the Sevcon Gen4 Size 6 controller, and the short answer appears to be 1300 euro or 1450 USD:
https://www.boostech.de/en/produkt/sevcon-gen4-size6-controller/
-
Update- new controller was installed and it allowed the dealer to commission the motor, but the motor temps are still all over the place and the dealer can't figure it out without calling Zero and they're closed on weekends.
Going on a month with the bike and taking the bus to work really sucks. I need my motorcycle. ICE bikes are gaining more appeal day by day.
-
Zero needs to do better than this. I wish I could do more than wish you luck. I'll try.
-
From the pile of ICE bikes that are stuck at the dealers due to recalls and repairs, I wouldn't say they're any more free of problems.
It sucks when you're the one with something broken, but modern bikes have sensors and can have weird problems, too.
-Crissa
-
I would love to know if the motor's temp is all over the place or the motor's temp sensor is all over the place.
Zero does need in invest in more tech support but my gut tells me most of these shop guys don't want to embrace electric bikes and don't want to take the time to get better trained on how to work on these bikes. They can tear a gas bike down and rebuild it in their sleep and don't want to learn a whole new beast.
If it does end up being a bad sensor I would want the old controller replaced and see how it runs.
-
Zero customer support needs to de-centralize so that it's no longer a bottleneck delaying diagnosis steps, and so that it forces them to rely on documentation more than know-how.
Unfortunately, the comment about dealership service technician reluctance is probably a factor, but Zero can do better.
I will say that if an expensive system part like the controller is deemed worth replacing, the customer deserves a written explanation of why the conclusion was made, even if it's just a log dump and a quick sentence. The customer in ICE servicing circumstances deserves to receive the replaced part as well if they wish (it's their property), and this should apply to EVs as well.
-
I would love to know if the motor's temp is all over the place or the motor's temp sensor is all over the place.
...........
I have to think the the actual temperature would be fairly constant but a faulty sensor &/or conductor could cause frequent & wide reading fluctuations.
-
I would love to know if the motor's temp is all over the place or the motor's temp sensor is all over the place.
...........
I have to think the the actual temperature would be fairly constant but a faulty sensor &/or conductor could cause frequent & wide reading fluctuations.
Yes, I agree. I wonder how this all played out as a controller diagnosis, or whether there's something about motor sensor fluctuations (maybe it's shorting out?) that led to an issue with the controller.
-
Do we know if the/these temperature sensor(s) are common Thermister(s)?
If so, MAY be easy to check (including wiggling conductors/plugs).....
https://youtu.be/RaPkzarY4eY
-
How could they decentralize? There's only so much demand and available training, tho.
And yes, they have to give you the parts back if you request, at least in California.
-Crissa
-
I would love to know if the motor's temp is all over the place or the motor's temp sensor is all over the place.
...........
I have to think the the actual temperature would be fairly constant but a faulty sensor &/or conductor could cause frequent & wide reading fluctuations.
Yes, I agree. I wonder how this all played out as a controller diagnosis, or whether there's something about motor sensor fluctuations (maybe it's shorting out?) that led to an issue with the controller.
I would think it wouldn’t be a Short but rather a partial “Open” ie loose connection.
-
I would love to know if the motor's temp is all over the place or the motor's temp sensor is all over the place.
...........
I have to think the the actual temperature would be fairly constant but a faulty sensor &/or conductor could cause frequent & wide reading fluctuations.
Yes, I agree. I wonder how this all played out as a controller diagnosis, or whether there's something about motor sensor fluctuations (maybe it's shorting out?) that led to an issue with the controller.
I would think it wouldn’t be a Short but rather a partial “Open” ie loose connection.
Sure, but how would that result in controller damage? Unless maybe the fluctuations themselves resulted in wild power transients as it tried to track motor limits. But that seems unlikely.
-
I’m not addressing the condemned controller (not enough knowledge nor info), but rather the erroneous temperature readings.
PERHAPS the sensor(s) are RTD'S https://youtu.be/nhFECmPuUCY
Their resistance goes up as the sensed temperature increases.
A loose connection (increase in resistance) would manifest as a higher temperature reading.
Also it could be that the sensor is bad (intermittently) internally.
-
How could they decentralize? There's only so much demand and available training, tho.
And yes, they have to give you the parts back if you request, at least in California.
-Crissa
We know that Zero is trying to do this with a European service and parts center.
But really the general recipe is that you make a process for building out expertise in the organization rather than just the people. You make sure that every incident folds feedback and improvements into documentation, training, and communication.
And you make sure that service technicians and employees don’t need to remember a lot of ad hoc shorthand to troubleshoot; instead the documents are elaborate yet clear enough that any 18 year old paying a decent amount of attention and acting and speaking honestly can do the job.
I believe this can be done because I went through naval nuclear power training as a college dropout. That’s an expensive program but the principles can be implemented given attention to detail in developing and refining written material based on technician observations and practices, including mistakes.
-
Yeah, I have experience with RTDs. I can’t remember whether we’ve determined what temperature sensors are embedded in Zero motors and batteries.
Anyway the controller is very expensive so it’s worth justifying.
-
I believe they use fairly standard ~10k thermistors in the motor. However, they're embedded in the motor potting and are absolutely not replaceable.
-
Got it back today. Motor temp on dash reads higher than actual temp (started out 10° above ambient temp on start up and settled at 140°F once it got up to temperature. I have a laser thermometer and will check it next time I ride to compare to what the dash is telling me. Off hand, I suspect there is no way it's 140°.
Dealer said Zero reviewed the logs and said the dash is defective (they don't see in the logs the temps the dash is reporting). However, my app is showing the temp my dash is showing. (Blowing smoke, anyone?) Anyway, happy to have it back. Nice cool 50° day and I hope the bike doesnt go into thermal protection on a 90° day I'll attach a picture of the motor controller once I get home and resize it to under 600k
-
Got it back today. Motor temp on dash reads higher than actual temp (started out 10° above ambient temp on start up and settled at 140°F once it got up to temperature. I have a laser thermometer and will check it next time I ride to compare to what the dash is telling me. Off hand, I suspect there is no way it's 140°.
Dealer said Zero reviewed the logs and said the dash is defective (they don't see in the logs the temps the dash is reporting). However, my app is showing the temp my dash is showing. (Blowing smoke, anyone?) Anyway, happy to have it back. Nice cool 50° day and I hope the bike doesnt go into thermal protection on a 90° day I'll attach a picture of the motor controller once I get home and resize it to under 600k
I have owned three Zeros and two have shown the temperature on the dash as being 10 or 15 degrees F warmer than the ambient air temperature even after sitting in my garage for a day or two. It appears to be a Zero feature. ::) I wouldn't worry about it. I can't recall if my 2012 Zero also had a temperature gauge as that bike went to the crusher a couple of years ago. :(