ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Cjd000 on August 17, 2018, 07:23:09 PM
-
Hi,
I have a 2015 S 12.5 and I’ve added a couple of TC Charger to the ‘tank’ area which gives 6.6kw of charging.
Does anybody know how to keep the contactor closed and in charging mode with the keys removed? I know the belly pan will do this but want to be able to charge without it.
If I had an official charge tank, the instructions are to close the contactor with the key which I don’t mind doing, however when I remove the key the contactor opens.
Do I simply join the two small pins on the aux connector to tell it I have a charger connected or is there another ‘enable’ wire in the harnes that the official charge tank would use?
Has anybody figures this out?
Put simply I’m looking for a ‘charge mode enable’ signal that doesn’t need CANBUS
Cheers,
Chris
-
In absence of CANBus signal, you will need to have bike on and +5Vdc to activate AUX charging signal.
-
Just use the onboard charger for charging as well and you're done. That is the most simple and safest way. Alternativly you can connect a dummy plug to the Anderson port with either a 100k resistor or a powerbank. Those methods are described here in the forum already.
Everything else would involve taking wiring harnesses apart, which is something you don't really want to do.
-
Hmm, I wonder if that's why my '15 SR requires me to key it on to get it charging on the Elcon alone...
My onboard is dead, so the Elcon is all I have, and I have to key the bike on to get it started. It'll continue to run after I key it off, but it must be keyed on to begin.
-
You have to play by the same rules as Zero’s Charge Tank or their Quick Charger accessories.
The Hollywood Electrics Elcon 2500 does use an enable signal (what the 5V alludes to above) over the Accessory Charging Port but still requires contactor closing by onboard means.
Practically speaking for SCv1 and 2, I left my key in the ignition and used a throttle lock while the cutout switch was in the Off position. But my SC chargers fans make enough noise to scare people off. An enable signal hookup was available but I never found it to be robust.
I also raised the idle timeout in the MBB which opens the contactor after a while.
I do not find this practice of using nonhomologated chargers sustainable. The chargers you’ve bought could get you into trouble. Even though the TC chargers are the same platform as what either Zero or DigiNow are using, they are not subject to the same QA standards and I’m not clear on how much anyone has programmed them for Zero operation independently.
-
I do not find this practice of using nonhomologated chargers sustainable. The chargers you’ve bought could get you into trouble. Even though the TC chargers are the same platform as what either Zero or DigiNow are using, they are not subject to the same QA standards and I’m not clear on how much anyone has programmed them for Zero operation independently.
Come on Brian. Nonhomologated is a totally wrong term here, because DigiNows aren't homologated either (whatever that means in case of chargers?). They have a CE certification by default, I guess that's quite a good label. The are not the same platform, they are the same. TC is reportedly in talks with OEMs like VW, so unless you give them a contract ordering hundreds of thousands of chargers, they won't change anything for you apart from the wiring.
Instead of programming one could also say "to set the correct voltage" because that's about it. That can be done either in the factory or by guys like ElCon, depending on if you use it with or without canbus. All of the important safety protections are integrated in the charger anyway, and as long as you don't pass the contactor the BMS takes care of the rest.
The TC units are a very good option for everyone willing to do a little DIY, getting a very safe and reliable charging solution while saving a lot of $$$.
-
Just shrug it off.
He has his beliefs how everything is dangerous and special.
I have mine that its just a lipo battery with a BMS..
IMO any power source with a reliable current limit and voltage cutoff is fine. I would go with an argument about thermal drift of voltage settings on crappy supplies and such... as its valid.
but literally, as long as you stay within the BMS allowed ranges, its fine. If you could bypass all that and go directly to the cells.. its also fine, but you would have higher limits.
-
I do not find this practice of using nonhomologated chargers sustainable. The chargers you’ve bought could get you into trouble. Even though the TC chargers are the same platform as what either Zero or DigiNow are using, they are not subject to the same QA standards and I’m not clear on how much anyone has programmed them for Zero operation independently.
Come on Brian. Nonhomologated is a totally wrong term here, because DigiNows aren't homologated either (whatever that means in case of chargers?). They have a CE certification by default, I guess that's quite a good label. The are not the same platform, they are the same. TC is reportedly in talks with OEMs like VW, so unless you give them a contract ordering hundreds of thousands of chargers, they won't change anything for you apart from the wiring.
Instead of programming one could also say "to set the correct voltage" because that's about it. That can be done either in the factory or by guys like ElCon, depending on if you use it with or without canbus. All of the important safety protections are integrated in the charger anyway, and as long as you don't pass the contactor the BMS takes care of the rest.
The TC units are a very good option for everyone willing to do a little DIY, getting a very safe and reliable charging solution while saving a lot of $$$.
It's not my fault that DigiNow can't be bothered to explain its own products, but what they do is a lot more than just setting the right voltage range, and anyone who thinks they're getting the same functionality that way is wrong.
As of 2.5, DigiNow's setup is listening to the onboard CAN messages, which makes it about as homologated as one could ask for and capable of saving you a lot of general clumsiness and potential problems from a basic CC-CV charger.
-
Just shrug it off.
He has his beliefs how everything is dangerous and special.
I have mine that its just a lipo battery with a BMS..
IMO any power source with a reliable current limit and voltage cutoff is fine. I would go with an argument about thermal drift of voltage settings on crappy supplies and such... as its valid.
but literally, as long as you stay within the BMS allowed ranges, its fine. If you could bypass all that and go directly to the cells.. its also fine, but you would have higher limits.
You are way out of line here, and I really wish I didn't have to do business with you in order to maintain the unofficial manual.
I interview a lot of engineers and can't share everything I learn online either because they're vague or because I can't reshare details.
I also have spent time as a technician and appreciate what it means to say something in public which might insult the poster but protects the anonymous reader from Dunning-Krugering their bike.
-
... what they do is a lot more than just setting the right voltage range, and anyone who thinks they're getting the same functionality that way is wrong.
Go on... what is this magic functionality?
-
I do not find this practice of using nonhomologated chargers sustainable. The chargers you’ve bought could get you into trouble. Even though the TC chargers are the same platform as what either Zero or DigiNow are using, they are not subject to the same QA standards and I’m not clear on how much anyone has programmed them for Zero operation independently.
Don't worry, rest assured there are people out there who have properly designed and tested TC-Charger based solutions for Zeros and other electric motorcyes that are up to European electrical and automotive standards. As of my experience yet, they have been more reliable and technically better protected against the elements than the Diginow V2. Couldn't compare it to V2.5 yet. I wonder how you can evaluate those solutions when you have never seen them or any data on it. I don't see how the Diginow solution is so 'special' when they can't even explain the 'magic' of their product.
-
I do not find this practice of using nonhomologated chargers sustainable. The chargers you’ve bought could get you into trouble. Even though the TC chargers are the same platform as what either Zero or DigiNow are using, they are not subject to the same QA standards and I’m not clear on how much anyone has programmed them for Zero operation independently.
Don't worry, rest assured there are people out there who have properly designed and tested TC-Charger based solutions for Zeros and other electric motorcyes that are up to European electrical and automotive standards. As of my experience yet, they have been more reliable and technically better protected against the elements than the Diginow V2. Couldn't compare it to V2.5 yet. I wonder how you can evaluate those solutions when you have never seen them or any data on it. I don't see how the Diginow solution is so 'special' when they can't even explain the 'magic' of their product.
You're right that I haven't evaluated it! That's why I can't speak well of it!
Let me be clear:
- I need documentation.
- I need evidence.
- I need _independent_ corroboration.
Vendor statements are certainly helpful and count for something. Where is your website with claims? Who's going to speak up for you that I can trust?
If you want to know why I don't "rest assured", I hear about broken bikes. Not in a way that I can cite, frustratingly, but I hear about them via independent channels. Each channel does not know explicitly how I'm cross-checking them.
I get feedback about how the manual may be leading people to endanger their bikes. I get all sorts of feedback, BECAUSE I have this policy and BECAUSE I keep information confidential and only endorse things conservatively.
You can cast me as a jerk for not speaking well of your product, or you can admit that it's dangerous for me to endorse what you're doing without evidence, and understand why I act this way.
What I'd really like is a REASON to speak well of your work. A forum post isn't good enough.
-
And just to be clear, everyone asks me to take their word without question.
And they all don't like me because I will not agree to anything I hear without some kind of crosscheck or sanity check or putting scare quotes or uncertain phrasing around their claims.
That includes DigiNow and Zero.
Whether you like it or not, it's important that someone tries to stick with a principle so they don't get lost or adrift. My knowledge isn't perfect, and the manual isn't perfect, and some of this is just down to me not having enough time to sift through everything.
But I will take no one's word at face value, even Zero's own engineering staff. Experts (first-hand knowledgeable people) can:
- delude themselves, or
- forget what it's like to experience their creations as buyers with no documentation, or
- document what they know so poorly that their claims don't apply to what they think they apply to, or
- just really not grasp others' perspectives.
I guess I'm flattered that people are pissed off at me, because it means what I say matters in some basic sense. But that also makes me cautious to agree to any claim as well.
So, you're stuck: (1) convince me, or (2) deal with my criticism.
-
Oh, and yes I'm aware of what homologation means legally via the NHTSA and ECE, and that only Zero can homologate by that definition and will not because of reasons I've heard which sound perfectly valid and are the exact reasons that Zero cannot ship better or different chargers than they do.
No one on this forum seems to operate with an understanding of that, so I'm misusing the term slightly to explain that CC-CV is not the only thing that DigiNow is doing or even has been doing for a while.
The inability, refusal, or incompetence of Zero and DigiNow to make public cases for themselves is why we get to have stupid discussions like this.
-
In absence of CANBus signal, you will need to have bike on and +5Vdc to activate AUX charging signal.
I think some have damaged the MBB by applying 5VDC to the AUX. Better double-check that. It might be 3.3V or it might require resistors or isolation added.
-
In absence of CANBus signal, you will need to have bike on and +5Vdc to activate AUX charging signal.
I think some have damaged the MBB by applying 5VDC to the AUX. Better double-check that. It might be 3.3V or it might require resistors or isolation added.
FWIW, I am not exactly clear on what's appropriate for that. There's what various people say, and they all disagree with each other.
In fact, they disagree so much and there's so much drama that I've avoided even saying who disagrees or how, just so I don't have to deal with that noise.
-
... what they do is a lot more than just setting the right voltage range, and anyone who thinks they're getting the same functionality that way is wrong.
Go on... what is this magic functionality?
DigiNow needs to state this. I think we disagree on many points but not on the need for them to make claims and instructions and guidance in documents.
I can only relay vague versions of what I’ve heard because I can’t confirm anything I’m told by them.
And they pretty much despise me for that.
-
Better plan could then be to simulate behaviors of stock onboard charger to tell bike to close contactor and enable charging. Where to obtain that connector shell, pins, and crimp tool?
-
> > > In absence of CANBus signal, you will need to have bike on and +5Vdc to activate AUX charging signal.
> > I think some have damaged the MBB by applying 5VDC to the AUX. Better double-check that. It might be 3.3V or it might require resistors or isolation added.
> FWIW, I am not exactly clear on what's appropriate for that. ...
Neither am I. Shadow, you make comments like that, people may take them as fact and break their bikes. Much more caution is warranted.
-
Better plan could then be to simulate behaviors of stock onboard charger to tell bike to close contactor and enable charging. Where to obtain that connector shell, pins, and crimp tool?
Since that's what DigiNow v2.5 does, they'd know.
In the absence of that, perform a sniff of the CANBus during onboard charger power-up, reverse engineer the onboard charger's data plug, and then work out what to replay (and *when*) to get the same effect.
-
....
....
....
We all want the best info on this forum, so people here (I hope) are honest.
Shall we not get personal and stuff?
We got Youtube and others for it....sadly :o 8)
-
Wow, didn’t expect all that from what I thought was a relatively straightforward question! Brian, love the work you’ve done so far - I’m a big fan and wouldn’t know a fraction of what I know today without the unofficial manual.
So far I’m gathering that I can use the two pins on the aux port but nobody is sure if this is a 5v signal, a 3.3v signal or simply a resistor.
If this point could be resolved it would help me out a great deal.
On the TC Charger point, they work great. I’ve been working with lipo cells for some time and understand the bulk of the science. My TC chargers are programmed at the factory for zero’s (cc-cv 116.4vdc) and although DigiNow will provide a better solution with CAN bus coms and a slightly different charging profile, for me personally it doesn’t justify the extra cost. If the zeros operated in the extreme ranges of the cells I may be more cautious but at 116v this doesn’t come close and any ‘special’ charging will make negligible difference to the life of the cells. I keep reading a lot in these forums where people try to make things appear more ‘special’ than they really are.... it’s a LiPo and a BMS folks! Oh and the BMS does the clever balancing of cells, not the charger!
I do have an Arduino to CAN-bus interface board available and if I can’t find the Aux connector solution I will intercept the messages and simulate the onboard charger, however that’s always a lot harder that soldering a resistor and a switch!
-
They’re not LiPo cells.
-
I remember that trikester (username) had posted on how to do it, but I don't have any time to check old posts right now
-
Sorry, yes LiPo is not correct, however they operate in a similar manor for the purposes of charging.
Correct term - Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt: LiNiMnCoO2
-
Thanks for the steer Ndm I found the post...
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3993.msg24631#msg24631
Not sure I like the idea of connecting the Anderson Aux to B+ through a 100k resistor as described in the post. Something doesn’t feel right about using 116v to signal charging?
-
Thanks for the steer Ndm I found the post...
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3993.msg24631#msg24631
Not sure I like the idea of connecting the Anderson Aux to B+ through a 100k resistor as described in the post. Something doesn’t feel right about using 116v to signal charging?
You sound like you have more electrical engineering sense than most. Or at least different perspective which is valuable when trying to compare claims.
If you work out some strategy you find recommendable in robustness, I’d like to hear it and the reasoning behind it.
Thanks!
-
Thanks for the steer Ndm I found the post...
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3993.msg24631#msg24631
Not sure I like the idea of connecting the Anderson Aux to B+ through a 100k resistor as described in the post. Something doesn’t feel right about using 116v to signal charging?
Using a 5V source AND using a 10 kOhm series resistor in the line from the 5V to the aux pin in the anderson is a better way! And a way that actually works !
The minus of the 5V source is to be connected to B-
If you don't have the onboard you first have to key on the motorcycle, then apply 5V (with the 10kOhm series resistor) to the aux pin on the anderson and then you can key the bike off and then the contactor stays closed
-
First Cjd000 congrats on getting into the DIY space. Contact morgan at diginow.it and tell him which TC setup you got, we might be able to help you get going.
Second as for the "magic" you guys are talking about, I prefer to call it several years of my and other peoples lives spent coding and hacking to build a system that fully integrates with the bikes BMS and doesn't void the warranty. If that is not enough, check out the press release and the magic spells contained within... http://blog.motorcycle.com/2018/06/15/electric/diginow-announces-supercharger-v2-5-zero-motorcycles/ (http://blog.motorcycle.com/2018/06/15/electric/diginow-announces-supercharger-v2-5-zero-motorcycles/)
Finally I just want to clarify a few few things.
1) Brian is not overboard with the saftey warnings here... There is a reason that we are the only charger that will not void your warranty. And I am not talking about the warranty act here. I mean things that will, over a few years, kill or damage a bike. So while I know these safety precautions can sound fear based and overwhelming, I assure you they are not. Ask the bike owners that were bricked by our competitors :-X how valid saftey is.
2) Full integration with the BMS is exceptionally important, especially when you stand behind your product with a warranty as we do for all the countries we sell in. Not only that you need it in order to not damage the system when charging faster than 4.5kw :o
3) I wouldnt fuck with the aux 5v signal if I were you. While it is therte to be used, its also there to be used by the OEM and for security reasons I cant tell you how it goes wrong, but lets just say your bike will never be the same again, even with a new wiring harness and MBB... Ask Luke Workman about that ;)
4) TC is the factory that we and many other companies contract to build our chargers, like how McDonalds makes burgers for many people, sometimes thy look the same, but are quite different.
5) Now that v2.5 is our stable release we will be documenting it when my spine is healed. I am looking forward to the help of many people in this forum and others to help with that. We are very lucky to have the help of such an empassioned community as this.
Hopefully we can help Cjd000 get his TC going. Sadly, at some point, the unit will void his battery warranty (But as he said he is DIY so I'm sure he is fine with that) if it does not adjust its charge rate for the Farasis cells simple CC-CV is not enough at higher charge rates for battery lifespan warranty, but this is the reason we are the only ones doing this as a company. It's really complex!. We are the only charger in the world that communicates with the ZERO BMS and we are the only non OEM charger in the world which will not void the warranty and backs that up with its own warranty, guarantee, and direct support with Zero. Not only that, if there is an issue we need to deal with, we do so as quickly as possible and with closely work with Zero to do so. We have also worked with Tesla to ensure as much station compatability as possible, and have helped them identify bugs in their own stations as well.
-
Thank you, Brandon, for speaking up!
Certain types of knowledge are impossible to share responsibly (by contract or because we don't know how to express something right to keep people out of trouble), and the best I can do sometimes is allude to sources and cross-check.
-
> Now that v2.5 is our stable release we will be documenting it when my spine is healed. I am looking forward to the help of many people in this forum and others to help with that. We are very lucky to have the help of such an empassioned community as this.
Get well soon, Brandon! And document away!