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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Doctorbass on September 04, 2013, 07:47:12 AM
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Hi All
I got my 2012 S ZF9 bike controller updated according to the last Zero service Bulletin that should solve the famous GLITCH.
I was really curious to see the difference after the update as well so i got the bike out for a ride.
Here are the observations.
-Glitch did not happened during any stop and go or normal speed at any place. ( previously in ANY conditions glitch was happening erraticly 5-10 time in the lastss ride!!) So this improoved ALOT the fun and confort feeling to no more worrie about having teh bike to cut at any time and any PLACE !!!
-Bike power significantly increased at very high speed ( 120-145kmh) due to the new programmed max motor RPM wich is not 6000RPM. What happen is that not the current to the motor is sustained until higher RPM than before. Before at 5000RPM the motor current was beginning to decrease, limiting the acceleration. Now the motor current continu to be sustained at until 6000RPM wich preserve aceleration up to about 145-150km/h
Previously the motor max power i had recorded without the new firmware update was 26kW and 420A and not it is more like 30kW and 445A max sustained.
Btw with the ZF9 battery I have measured that the bike require about 9-10kW to sustain 100km/h and 15-18kW to sustain 120km/h wich mean that with teh actual battery i can do about 80-100km at 100km/h and 50-60km at 120km/h
The bike acceleration seem to be more linear than before. Before the bike had his peak acceleration at about 80km/h, now it is more smooth but is sustained for higher speed.
I finally got the motor to cut on the highway but i think it happened due to the motor max temp reached but i did not pay attention to confirm if the " ! " logo was blinking on the display or not. but when i have exit the highway and goes to a 70kmh boulevard, i was that Temperature alarm blinking when i accelerated so i guess the motor was hot enough.
I admit that i was pretty hard on the throttle on the highway and saw often the 430-440A for couples of second during acceleration.
Overal conclusion: The bike is way better than before the lastest firmware update and "glitch"seem to only happen at high motor temp or high sustained current demand.
Motor and controller are a little more hot to the touch than before 9 but hey!.. it also happened due to my very high throttle power demand to see the limit of that updated bike!)
I was so hard on the throttle than after only 12km i had 2 bar dissapear on the gauge!.. normally i can do up to 15km on a single bar!
Doc
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Ok some more details about the stats of the motor and controller during my hard test ride:
Max motor temp: 129 celsius
(protection stage 1 begin to activate at 145 C and stage 2 at 152 celsius) so motor did not had hard time enough to create the power cut
Max controller temp: 72 celsius
(protection stage 1 begin to activate at 70 C and stage 2 at 75 celsius) so motor did had hard time enough to create the power reduce or cut by activating the Stage 1 protection
Doc
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This confirms our thoughts that the controller is the thermal weak link.
Do you know the date this firmware was release? Im assuming that I have the latest version but I never noticed a performance increase.
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Hello The sevcon firmware is from July 2013 :D and the Service Bulletin is from June 2013 and it mention it apply to all S and DS 2012 model
Doc
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Hmmm . . . . just got my bike ('12 S ZF6) back from the nine-week glitch service repair and refurbishment, and I assume that they updated the firmware at the same time . . . the main difference I have noticed is that there seems to be much less regen (maybe none) when coasting in Eco mode . . . there seems to be relatively more regen in Sport mode (but I cant be sure because I might just be comparing it to the lack of regen in Eco mode). Cant tell about top end performance, since I havent had a good opportunity to open it up on the highway.
--Karl
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Take in account if your battery if fully charged regen will cut off because the voltage raise is to high.
You should test it in both modes when you have pulled some juice before ;)
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Got progressively the DAMN glitch over the last few days!! >:(
It is less present, I would say 1/2 of what it was before but I get it in EVERY situations
- When starting at a dead stop or at a read light that goes green.. ( throttle is just like disabled until I cycle the key)
- While accelerating at high power when entering highway, motor just cut while accelerating!
-When in cruise speed, sometime when there is strong wind, it's like the motor don't like it and begin to vibrate and loose power)
Next step will be to return the motor directly to Zero for repair or replacement. Unless they release a service bulletin for fixing the problem on the motor.
Doc
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I just got an update as well on 2012 DS(2700 miles)due to the "glitch." It was perfect for about a week and then got progressively worse over this second week. Possibly correlated to ambient temp. 1. this week has been warming up. 2. bike has sat in the sun after the worst problem I've had. That worst problem being starting off for my ride home at the end of the day. It will move backwards or hardly move when i roll the throttle. I have recently noticed I can "break through" if i manually roll the bike forward and roll the throttle somewhat hard. Seems a little dangerous. Im not sure if i could have done that before the update. As of now the only difference is i dont have to restart with the key when it cuts off.
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I believe the firmware corrected two things:
1. The drift tolerance was increased, such that the bike would not shut as frequently.
2. When a glitch occurs, the controller will automatically reset itself when the throttle is returned to idle. Much safer than turning the bike off and then back on.
I don't know that they've fundamentally fixed the glitch. I haven't had motor issues post-glitch, but my motor was damaged in shipping : | and the replacement motor has been fine.
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Protomech, I dont think that the firmware update allow a reset when turning back the throttle... I have the lastest firmware version that Zero sent me and the glitch NEVER changed
It is still ALOT.. well TOO present and now since yesterday i also get the bike going backwards !!!
It also happened the same way as for DedoBurns
bike has sat in the sun in the parking lot of my work after the worst problem I've had. That worst problem being starting off for my ride home at the end of the day. It will move backwards or hardly move when i roll the throttle.
YES BACKWARD !!! Dams !! it also happened to me at a stop and i had a car behind me !! he used his horn because he tought that i would hit his car... :o
that's a so bad publicity for Zero! ::)
The vibration and loss of power also happen when i'm on teh highway and that there is alot of wind... Wind seem to increase the event of glitch...
I'm nearly convinced that it's something to have with the encoder that is like losen on the motor shaft or a bad connection on the encoder sensor.
If it would not be under warranty i would attempt to repair it myself, i'm sure i can. but once it woudl be done the bike would not move and i wuld need the CANBUS Interface to reprogram and calibrate the controller with the fixed position of the encoder disk...
Doc
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These are word for word the same problems I'm experiencing Doc.
Zero are taking my bike in for a motor replacement, in the meantime I'm reguarly recalibrating the motor through the MBB board which is helping a lot.
This is resulting in relativley few glitches but still a fair bit of rough running.
I'm still riding my bike (3k miles and counting) but I'll be glad when the motor gets replaced.
2. When a glitch occurs, the controller will automatically reset itself when the throttle is returned to idle. Much safer than turning the bike off and then back on.
Weird, I've got the latest firmware update (as of Aug 2013) and I can't say that my bike resets itself after a glitch when the throttle is rolled off...
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Had my first glitch yesterday at about 1800 miles on the clock. Happened at an intersection, with very rough vibration from the motor on attempted acceleration, followed by no response when i stopped. it took two "reboots" to work right.
this technology isn't ready for prime time. sorry to say it. it's not.
guess i'll get one of my gasoline bikes back out. i don't have the freedom to just get stuck whenever the bike decides it. i can't call out (or late) for work. not to mention, that was pretty scary.
i look forward to trying to follow any progress from the obviously very intelligent people on this thread, since zero isn't officially saying much of anything...
very disappointed.
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Hum. My understanding was that would go out in the next update. Perhaps it got held back?
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Hum. My understanding was that would go out in the next update. Perhaps it got held back?
I idly contemplated building a little arduino based gadget that connects to the bike through the CANBUS port and when it glitches, you press a button to recalibrate the bike. Seems that this "close throttle" would be a similar official solution... ;D
To be honest the glitch is not a deal breaker for me, and Zero are helping to try and fix it on my bike. So far I'm pretty impressed with the level of customer support I've recieved, far in excess of any other manufacturer I've had a new bike from.
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I idly contemplated building a little arduino based gadget that connects to the bike through the CANBUS port and when it glitches, you press a button to recalibrate the bike. Seems that this "close throttle" would be a similar official solution... ;D
Do you think it will work so easy?
Next you will find a part of the Help-Text of the Sevcon Programming SW it tells you to go to "Pre-Operational" Mode I wouldn't do all this while "riding" the bike.
...{Commision encoder}
Use of a sin-cos encoder requires that the minimum and maximum voltages for each signal are programmed into the controllers object dictionary.
!1) Connect the sine and cosine signals from the encoder to their relevant inputs.!
!2) Put the controller in to pre-operational and cycle power.!
<Go Preop: fpo $helper_node pre>
!3) Spin the motor externally several rotations and then click button below.!
<Commision SIN/COS encoder: ::help_sincos::commit $helper_node>
When setting the encoder voltages, it is also ...
I don't get the Glitch at my DS2012 so I am happy and don't need to change anything but I have an idea (never tested it in real).
If you look at your Sevcon there is its "Signal Connector" a Tyco 35 pin. The Pin 1 (orange/red) is the Key switch in it comes from the MBB. If you put a switch in this line (best an tactile opener) you can restart the Sevcon while your bike is running (light...). If you use the switch at a nice place you don't have to fiddle with the key!
I have attached a photo of mine the switch is used to switch the bike in revers mode 8)
The second show the red/orange line that I have used for a different option. Don't be puzzled my hole rear-part is self made and different. Even your Sevcon will have the connector at a different place ;)
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I don't have the glitch on my '12 DS yet). As usual, the internet amplifies the negative and who knows how prevalent the glitch is.
What does occur to me is that Zero is really tempting fate by not recalling. Clearly the glitch could result in an accident. Hopefully that doesn't happen but if it does, and if it's serious, it could take the company down.
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I am not giving up on Zero. Despite my dealership that is playing catch-up, they and especially the eastern zero tech have been responsive. I am still riding and just dealing with it until I hear back about the next course of action. Trying to be patient and trusting.
Some other notes of interest:
My zero was a demo so may have been a somewhat earlier build (Edit: #123, I assume it is consecutive out of the factory?)
the update, done sometime in early September, did negate the need to restart with the key while moving. It does seem that it will cut off at higher speeds now.
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Interesting, so it looks like there WAS an update that came out after my bike was updated...
I could really use that throttle reset capability, I'll have to contact Zero and see if I can get the update.
(My bike is #232 so I wonder if the earlier 2012 models are more prone to the glitch, or if thats just coincedence. )
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Mine must be one of the last bikes off the line and I haven't had a glitch so far after 5500 miles. Although I tend to do alot of short distance trips, less than 10 miles but 4+ times a day. Maybe the lack of extended running helps?
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I do around 40 miles a day, so I don't think its that. Strangely my longest glitch free ride was a 80 mile long ride.
However being an ex-demo bike, it only has 3500 miles on the clock (of which I've put 2000 of those miles on)
Maybe the earlier 2012 bikes are more prone to the glitch?
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If the problem is faulty potting around the motor encoder, it's possible that either batches of the motors are unaffected or that Motenergy improved their potting procedure over time.
So yes, the later bikes might be spared. Who has the highest VIN that's been affected by the glitch?
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My VIN ends in 232
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My VIN is 248 and I have not had the glitch in 6,400 miles.
Got a call from the dealer a few days ago and they updated Firmware on the MBB, SevCon, and recalibrated the motor.
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They probably had to recalibrate after upgrading the Sevcon controller firmware. But periodic manual motor recalibrations can also forestall the encoder drift.
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I have VIN 51 and after almost 7K miles, no glitch here. But then I don't ride in the rain and my motor has never become very hot. All of my riding is in temperatures of between 35 and 80 degrees F and I never spend much time at freeway speeds. I have never seen the high temperature warning light (or any warning lights, for that matter) and I doubt my motor has gotten above 100 degrees, based upon feeling the case with my hand after stopping. So maybe all of those factors have kept the encoder happy. :)
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or any warning lights, for that matter
What not even the "kickstand down" warning light...? ;)
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My bike is in the 300s -- 316, or so, I think -- and, yes, I had Glitch 2.0, so I dont think later builds were immune. But I did ride all last winter in NY, on wet, salted roads sometimes -- corrosion city.
--Karl
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or any warning lights, for that matter
What not even the "kickstand down" warning light...? ;)
I thought that was a "kickstarter" light. ;)
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My 2012 S ZF9 VIN is ending with 93
and I HAVE THAT GLITCH... sometime very rare sometime make the ride very dangerous!
Doc
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My DS ZF9 is #135. I did 5,000 miles last year but only a meager 1,000 this year since I got the glitch. I need to finally ride my bike to the service but I am not sure how to demonstrate the glitch to them.
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My DS ZF9 is #135. I did 5,000 miles last year but only a meager 1,000 this year since I got the glitch. I need to finally ride my bike to the service but I am not sure how to demonstrate the glitch to them.
Ask your dealer to contact the service department of Zero, they know about it. They will require to return the motor for some servicing. Your dealer labor time for dissassembling and reassembling the motor can be refunded i think by Zero but they have to ask
Doc
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I didn't receive a service bulletin - is this for all 2012 S bikes? The increased motor RPM/power sounds interesting. I sent an email to Zero asking about this update, but didn't receive a reply. I sent an email to the dealership and they didn't know about it (but promised to look into it). My bike is still under warranty for a couple months - I wonder why I didn't receive any notice about this update.
I did have the 'glitch' issue addressed when I first got the bike (almost 2 years ago) and it's only happened once since then, but the software fix did not affect performance. Curious.
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I didn't receive a service bulletin - is this for all 2012 S bikes? The increased motor RPM/power sounds interesting. I sent an email to Zero asking about this update, but didn't receive a reply. I sent an email to the dealership and they didn't know about it (but promised to look into it). My bike is still under warranty for a couple months - I wonder why I didn't receive any notice about this update.
I did have the 'glitch' issue addressed when I first got the bike (almost 2 years ago) and it's only happened once since then, but the software fix did not affect performance. Curious.
I have the same observations. The last time my bike received a programming update was during the summer of 2012 (the "glitch fix") and I haven't heard a thing about any further updates from either Zero or my dealer. ???
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Mine 2012-ZF9S has literally just come out of an upgrade for the glitch.
I know for certain they replaced the motor, but I believe the MBB was meant to have been reprogrammed as well.
Once I get an idea of the work Zero did, I'll let you guys know.
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I received an email reply from the dealership stating, "We haven’t done this update on your bike yet. I’m wide open the week after next (28th). Just let me know."
So, I'll bring the bike in as soon as I can.
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The Controller firmware update is done on my bike but not the BMS and waterproofing.
I still get the motor glitch and i'm 100% sure the problem is the motor.
I also have few month lefdt for the warranty but i had explained to Zero that i will send the motor for repair at the end of the season ( with in the next weeks) for the repair.
I could do the fix myself but i perffer keeping the warranty active...
Doc
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Having chatted to the dealership, the recent upgrades to my bike were:
* New motor to replace the (faulty / incorrectly potted) position sensor.
* Improved waterproofing on the Battery Pack. (Just as winter sets in, useful!)
* Re-flashed the MBB.
Picking it up this Saturday. Riding the 2013DS has been fun, but I'm excited about getting my ZF9 back... ;D
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Hi everybody,
My VIN ends in 060, I think. I live in Barcelona and i bought my second hand S ZF9 directly from a dealership.
The thing is, they are so stupid that i don't even wanted to go for anual service.
Now, after 11100 Km (about 7000mi) I had my first glitch. It happened at an stop; i twisted the accel. and... nothing.
No display warnings. I just had to restart the bike and everything worked perfectly again...
I am now starting to be a bit scared every time i stop the bike... I just don't feel any confidence like before, and
i am afraid that my warranty has void since i didn't do the anual check & firmware update.
I hope some crazy freak will come out with a homemade way of flashing our Zeros in the future, so if finally Zero M. releases a final firmware that solves those problems i could flash it.
Good luck all.
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Hi everybody,
My VIN ends in 060, I think. I live in Barcelona and i bought my second hand S ZF9 directly from a dealership.
The thing is, they are so stupid that i don't even wanted to go for anual service.
Now, after 11100 Km (about 7000mi) I had my first glitch. It happened at an stop; i twisted the accel. and... nothing.
No display warnings. I just had to restart the bike and everything worked perfectly again...
I am now starting to be a bit scared every time i stop the bike... I just don't feel any confidence like before, and
i am afraid that my warranty has void since i didn't do the anual check & firmware update.
I hope some crazy freak will come out with a homemade way of flashing our Zeros in the future, so if finally Zero M. releases a final firmware that solves those problems i could flash it.
Good luck all.
That problem happened to me with my 2012 Zero S (VIN # 51), but my bike only had 300 miles on the clock at that time. Your problem is not the "glitch". It most likely is a problem with the throttle assembly. Apparently some of the early bikes had bad throttle assemblies. Mine was replaced by the factory and I have never had that stalling-at-stop-light-with-no-warning-lights-on issue ever since.
However, I do have a similar problem when the battery pack drops below about 50 degrees F. Then the bike will not move when the throttle is turned unless you turn off the ignition key and then turn it back on again. Once you do that, everything works perfectly until the bike gets cold again.
What you are experiencing is not the "glitch", which happens while you are riding and not at a stop. If you can, have your dealer replace the throttle assembly before the bike's 2-year warranty expires. If they won't (or can't) do that, maybe you can contact Zero directly and they will ship you a throttle assembly that you can install yourself.
Your Zero does not require an "annual" service to be performed. To my knowledge, you do not have to do any servicing in order to keep your warranty in effect, according to my reading of the warranty in my owner's manual. Installing the latest programming would be nice and you dealer should do that for free, I would think. But I believe that the latest programming will not solve your throttle stalling issue. That is a mechanical assembly problem.
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Hi everybody,
My VIN ends in 060, I think. I live in Barcelona and i bought my second hand S ZF9 directly from a dealership.
The thing is, they are so stupid that i don't even wanted to go for anual service.
Now, after 11100 Km (about 7000mi) I had my first glitch. It happened at an stop; i twisted the accel. and... nothing.
No display warnings. I just had to restart the bike and everything worked perfectly again...
I am now starting to be a bit scared every time i stop the bike... I just don't feel any confidence like before, and
i am afraid that my warranty has void since i didn't do the anual check & firmware update.
I hope some crazy freak will come out with a homemade way of flashing our Zeros in the future, so if finally Zero M. releases a final firmware that solves those problems i could flash it.
Good luck all.
That problem happened to me with my 2012 Zero S (VIN # 51), but my bike only had 300 miles on the clock at that time. Your problem is not the "glitch". It most likely is a problem with the throttle assembly. Apparently some of the early bikes had bad throttle assemblies. Mine was replaced by the factory and I have never had that stalling-at-stop-light-with-no-warning-lights-on issue ever since.
However, I do have a similar problem when the battery pack drops below about 50 degrees F. Then the bike will not move when the throttle is turned unless you turn off the ignition key and then turn it back on again. Once you do that, everything works perfectly until the bike gets cold again.
What you are experiencing is not the "glitch", which happens while you are riding and not at a stop. If you can, have your dealer replace the throttle assembly before the bike's 2-year warranty expires. If they won't (or can't) do that, maybe you can contact Zero directly and they will ship you a throttle assembly that you can install yourself.
Your Zero does not require an "annual" service to be performed. To my knowledge, you do not have to do any servicing in order to keep your warranty in effect, according to my reading of the warranty in my owner's manual. Installing the latest programming would be nice and you dealer should do that for free, I would think. But I believe that the latest programming will not solve your throttle stalling issue. That is a mechanical assembly problem.
So, you say that you're "absolutely" sure that it's not a "glitch" related problem because of my low VIN number? Uhmm... then, if it ever happens again and i enable the kill switch and turn it off again, it should solve the problem as well, true?
Well, anyways, thank you very much for your answer. I'll try to contact my dealer after Christmas.
Kind regards.
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No, what I am saying is that the dreaded "glitch" happens when the bike is moving, not after it has stopped. The issue with the throttle not working after stopping for a while during a ride is most likely the throttle assembly issue. A problem with the throttle not working upon starting up in the morning was (according to a Zero engineer that I spoke with) caused by the programming "fix" for the "glitch". I was told that in a small percentage of vehicles, the reprogramming caused this problem and there was no cure, so you just have to live with needing two "boots" on cool mornings occasionally, which is what I do. Once you start riding this problem doesn't seem to occur for the rest of the day.
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No, what I am saying is that the dreaded "glitch" happens when the bike is moving, not after it has stopped. The issue with the throttle not working after stopping for a while during a ride is most likely the throttle assembly issue. A problem with the throttle not working upon starting up in the morning was (according to a Zero engineer that I spoke with) caused by the programming "fix" for the "glitch". I was told that in a small percentage of vehicles, the reprogramming caused this problem and there was no cure, so you just have to live with needing two "boots" on cool mornings occasionally, which is what I do. Once you start riding this problem doesn't seem to occur for the rest of the day.
I see, thanks. But then, how can a throttle assembly problem only affect when the bike is fully stopped and tried to accel. again... i just can't understand how inconsistent those issues are...
Anyways, i'll try to get a new throttle.
Thank you again.
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If your Poti has a "contact noise" / scratching (I don't know the correct English term) the voltage can jump when you twist the throttle and it maybe end in a Throttle wire-off fault!
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I don't know the correct English term
Jittering might be the most appropriate. It means to move around randomly.
Though to be fair your explanation was pretty descriptive, so I'd go with what you said. :)
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No, what I am saying is that the dreaded "glitch" happens when the bike is moving, not after it has stopped. The issue with the throttle not working after stopping for a while during a ride is most likely the throttle assembly issue. A problem with the throttle not working upon starting up in the morning was (according to a Zero engineer that I spoke with) caused by the programming "fix" for the "glitch". I was told that in a small percentage of vehicles, the reprogramming caused this problem and there was no cure, so you just have to live with needing two "boots" on cool mornings occasionally, which is what I do. Once you start riding this problem doesn't seem to occur for the rest of the day.
I see, thanks. But then, how can a throttle assembly problem only affect when the bike is fully stopped and tried to accel. again... i just can't understand how inconsistent those issues are...
Anyways, i'll try to get a new throttle.
Thank you again.
Ivan,
Cambia el potenciometro de 5K (sólo busca uno de calidad) y problema solucionado
Saludos desde Seva
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Lipo that's a nice tip but does somebody know a high quality pot that fits?
Would be nice if so we could share the type/brand/number ;)
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I hadn't heard of this distinction between losing power while at a stop vs. while riding. When I first brought my bike home it was losing power when I came to a stop (nothing happened when twisting the throttle upon attempting to start again). I assumed this was the 'glitch' that others were talking about. A software update fixed this - it only happened once in the two years after that update.
BUT - I just took my bike to the dealership for the most recent 'update' - which didn't appear to do anything as far as improved performance or range..., but now it has this 'glitch' while riding!
Just after the update the motor would just cut off during acceleration at around 55 or 60 MPH. Ive had to pull over and restart the bike to get home - serveral times.
This is one reason (the other being the range) the bike is at the Zero factory right now. I dropped it off two weeks ago - still waiting to hear what they find.
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BSDThw,
Unfortunately not. I did not have to change mine yet...CTS makes a good option -specs wise- but I have no idea if it will fit our throttle enclosure...
http://www.ctscorp.com/components/Datasheets/284.pdf (http://www.ctscorp.com/components/Datasheets/284.pdf)
There has been some discussion about this subject, unfortunately I did not follow it.
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I contacted Zero and spoke to one of the Ryan at the Zero office. He sais my motor and MBB are updated and they will send them back.
I really wish that the problems will be solved as well !
They realigned the encoder and sealed it and made the last firmware update on the MBB.
Doc