ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: evdjerome on April 02, 2018, 05:21:24 PM
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My place of work moved and I now park in a parking garage. The Zero won't trigger the parking gates on entry or exit. I've read you can mount Neodymium magnets to the bottom of motorcycles to trigger the gates and traffic lights. Is there anything on the Zero that could be damaged by this?
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Do you know if they use buried wire loops for detection? If so, can you see the trace of the loop on the pavement? Stopping with your wheel on the side of the loop, tangential to it, and directly over it can often trigger the loops. This even works with most bicycle wheels.
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I spent 30 years working for a city engineering department and I can tell you that magnets will do nothing to trigger induction loops buried in the pavement. Our maintenance crews used to check for the operation of these loops by tossing a shovel on top of the loop. The detect metal, not a magnetic field. If you want these loops to detect your Zero, you will either have to attach a steel shovel under your belly pan or ask the parking garage manager to have a technician adjust the sensitivity of the loops so that it will detect your bike (good luck with that).
Interestingly, the California DOT used to require new traffic signal installations to be able to detect Honda 50 step-though type motorcycles before they would be accepted by the State. However, now I believe that they must be able to detect a bicycle waiting at the stoplight. So expensive, computerized, adjustable, Department of Transportation-regulated traffic signal installations can be designed to detect just about anything with metal in it, but that may not be true for cheap parking garage detectors. Can you wiggle past the gate arm?
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+1 for getting in through the exit gate.
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Yeah, a friend of mine bought one of those "Green Light Trigger" magnets and discovered it did absolutely NOTHING. Put them in the same category as "Deer Whistles" as useless accessories designed to separate you from your hard-earned dollars.
If it really were a magnetic field that triggered those things, think about the field that must be surrounding that powerful electric motor in the Zero mounted down by the swingarm pivot less than a foot off the ground.
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Thanks for all the replies. I will abandon the magnet idea and see if the garage will adjust the sensitivity settings.
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You could try to flip out the sidestand, that brings some metal closer to the loop and might be just enough to trigger it.
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If you want to try something like this, I would be intrested to know if it works...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-Green-Light-Trigger-Inductive-Loop-Traffic-Sensor-Activator-v3/332346508692?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
I have the same issue leaving work. Right now I just roll the bike out through the pedestrian gate.
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If you want to try something like this, I would be intrested to know if it works...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-Green-Light-Trigger-Inductive-Loop-Traffic-Sensor-Activator-v3/332346508692?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
I have the same issue leaving work. Right now I just roll the bike out through the pedestrian gate.
Didn't you see what I wrote above? Doesn't work. Same as "Deer Whistles." All they do is separate you from your hard earned cash. If a magnetic field was all it took, the rather large magnetic field created by that very powerful electric motor about a foot off the ground would activate it easily enough.
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My office building has an underground garage with a large door that folds up and down. For the first year I worked there, it opened as long as I oriented in a certain angle along one of the wire cuts in the pavement. Then it stopped working and I'd be trapped in at night. I had to park in front of the door and take a 3-minute trip up an elevator and around the outside of the building to open it from the outside.
Building management was happy to call the contractor to adjust the sensitivity to max. It started working again, but only for a month. I contacted them again and the building engineer responded by placing an aluminum "tenants only" sign on the floor against the wall. When I want to leave, I lay the sign down on the floor in a very specific place. I can reach down don't even have to get off the bike.
I was skeptical that the sign wouldn't be stolen, but it's been there for nearly 2 years now. Whenever I run into another trapped biker or bicyclist, I enlighten then about it.
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. . . the building engineer responded by placing an aluminum "tenants only" sign on the floor against the wall. When I want to leave, I lay the sign down on the floor in a very specific place. I can reach down don't even have to get off the bike . . .
I wonder if putting metal foil under the inner soles would allow one to simply put their feet down.
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I wonder if putting metal foil under the inner soles would allow one to simply put their feet down.
Brilliant, I'll have to try that. Well, assuming I'm there late one night this week, anyway, as my last day there is Friday. My new job will be riding all over the place. :)
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Do these loops detect any kind of metal? I mean, the aluminium sign or the aluminium side stand. I thought the magnetic loop would only detect magnetic metals like iron/steel.
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Do these loops detect any kind of metal? I mean, the aluminium sign or the aluminium side stand. I thought the magnetic loop would only detect magnetic metals like iron/steel.
any conductive metal works. So aluminum ladders, signs, etc work just as well as ferrous metals
If you want to try something like this, I would be intrested to know if it works...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-Green-Light-Trigger-Inductive-Loop-Traffic-Sensor-Activator-v3/332346508692?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
I have the same issue leaving work. Right now I just roll the bike out through the pedestrian gate.
Didn't you see what I wrote above? Doesn't work. Same as "Deer Whistles." All they do is separate you from your hard earned cash. If a magnetic field was all it took, the rather large magnetic field created by that very powerful electric motor about a foot off the ground would activate it easily enough.
whoa there, back off the bitchyness..
I didnt need to read what you wrote, I already know a magnet wont work. lol
Go look at what I posted...
If you look into it, its an active device. It looks for the alternating current of the loop detector with its own loop antenna. When it sees one, it transmits an inverted signal. the effect is like trying to induce a current in an inductor in the opposite direction.. this makes the garage detector loop see an change in current, the same way it sees an change when its creating eddy currents in metal over it.... only much stronger.
the electrical theory is sound. Its not really available in the USA because its patented ( https://patents.google.com/patent/US7432827 ) and no one produces it... not to mention getting it to pass FCC part 15 would be tricky.
However this guy is outside of the USA selling them online.
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I stand corrected:
https://www.superstreetbike.com/dropping-kickstand-or-using-magnet-trips-green-light-mythbusters
Apparently, those magnet things do work IF they are located on the bike properly. Hmmmm... from reading the article it might be better to attach the magnet to a long piece of string and carry it in your pocket. When you come to a stop, dangle and wave the magnet over the wire. At least, that's what I gather from reading the article anyway.
I still don't understand why the magnetic field around the motor doesn't trip those things, though. Is it that well shielded??
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Is it that well shielded??
Yes. There is practically no magnetic field out from the motor.
even on an outrunner style motor with the magnets bonded to the can, a properly designed motor will direct the flux inward, so theres nothing much outside. On some cheap chinese outrunners you can get small flakes to stick to the outside, but doesn't reach far, and it is not very strong. Especially when you consider how strong the magnets inside it are.
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Is it that well shielded??
Yes. There is practically no magnetic field out from the motor.
even on an outrunner style motor with the magnets bonded to the can, a properly designed motor will direct the flux inward, so theres nothing much outside. On some cheap chinese outrunners you can get small flakes to stick to the outside, but doesn't reach far, and it is not very strong. Especially when you consider how strong the magnets inside it are.
Learn something new every day. I suppose it would've been easy enough to check by simply putting the bike up on my track stand, and having my wife hold the "throttle" enough for the wheel to turn while I held a screwdriver next to the motor housing...
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I still don't understand why the magnetic field around the motor doesn't trip those things, though. Is it that well shielded??
I don't have any actual experience working with those inductive pickup coils, but inductance is pretty a well understood topic to EEs like myself and MrDude. I would speculate the following things:
1) The pickup is a simple coil of wire, buried just below the surface of the pavement. You can often see where the pavement was carved out and patched to install the coil, in an older intersection that was retrofitted. Of course you won't see them in a new intersection or one that's been re-paved since installation.
2) The coil of wire, which is an electric component called an inductor, is paralleled with a capacitor to create an LC "resonant circuit", which will have a particular frequency it likes to oscillate at. Smart circuitry is used to create a fairly small oscillation at the resonant frequency the LC circuit prefers.
3) The whole purpose of this exercise is to create an alternating magnetic field in and around the coil, which interacts with any conductive or magnetic objects in the field. Any conductor, but especially iron or other "ferromagnetic" metals, will interact with the magnetic field and change the frequency the LC circuit naturally oscillates at. This change in frequency is easily detected, and if it passes some threshold, an object has been detected. Since it's only the resonant frequency of the LC circuit that's sensed, external fields (like the stray fields that leak out of our motors) don't have much effect.
4) The objects having the biggest effect on the magnetic field have a high "magnetic susceptibility" -- they're naturally magnetic. Iron/steel is a great one. Neodymium is even better, but whether or not it's actually magnetized isn't relevant. It's just the fact that it's magnetic in nature, which means it can affect the field of the wire coil. More on that later, though.
5) Electrically conductive materials which are NOT magnetic can be sensed, but not nearly as well as steel. They don't directly interact with the magnetic field, but the magnetic field in them causes an electrical current to flow, which in turn DOES interact with the magnetic field. Aluminum is a perfect example of a non-ferromagnetic material that can cause a small but detectable signal. There are some magnetic materials (like ferrite) which don't conduct electricity, but would be easily detected because of their high magnetic susceptibility. Non-conductive, non-magnetic materials are essentially invisible to the coil.
6) Size, shape and orientation of the object are very important. Rare earth magnet materials would be easily sensed, but they're expensive so those magnets are usually very small, so not much use. Same goes for our electric motors, which have lots of magnetic materials in them and would be great except that they're still pretty small compared to the size of the sense coil. Keep in mind that those coils were originally designed to detect the steel floor pan of a car, which covers nearly the entire coil and is ferromagnetic, so it creates a huge change in inductance of the coil. Getting closer to the coil helps (my brother the bicyclist swears laying his bike down on top of the coil will trigger it), and location and orientation are also important....someone said driving up right on the edge of the coil, tangent to it, works well, and that makes sense. Putting the kickstand down could help too, as some people have reported, especially if you do it in the right place (I'd guess right on the coil would be best, not in the center of it). A steel-toed work boot might be effective in the right place too.
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That last bit you mentioned is interesting. Quite a few motorcycle boots have steel toes. Hmmmmm...
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Size of steel plate and distance to coil are major factors.
If you get dynamic air suspension, you could lower the motorcycle when stopped.
(Let us know how that goes : - ) )
For a quick test, I would try a steel plate under the motorcycle. A skid plate under the onboard charger should help, and I would expect that installing a DoctorBass belly pan with 2-3 SCv2 in it would also do the job.
If you want more tangent about how to direct magnetic field one way and not the other, check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halbach_array and you can also go down the passive maglev rabbit hole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductrack .
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Is it that well shielded??
Yes. There is practically no magnetic field out from the motor.
even on an outrunner style motor with the magnets bonded to the can, a properly designed motor will direct the flux inward, so theres nothing much outside. On some cheap chinese outrunners you can get small flakes to stick to the outside, but doesn't reach far, and it is not very strong. Especially when you consider how strong the magnets inside it are.
Learn something new every day. I suppose it would've been easy enough to check by simply putting the bike up on my track stand, and having my wife hold the "throttle" enough for the wheel to turn while I held a screwdriver next to the motor housing...
The cool stuff you want to play with is called Magnetic Viewing Film. random amazon link for the pics : https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Viewing-Film-Field-Display/dp/B00129CCGS
its pretty cool stuff, it lets you see the field around objects. Most magnetic devices do not have a round sphere of magnetic field.. this lets you see what part is strongest, and what shape it is. its fun stuff to play with and visualize an otherwise invisible force.
The first time I bought some, I ran around the house like a kid putting it over fridge magnets, then pulled the fridge out and used it on the compressor motor, then went outside because I realized the Air Conditioner motor is even bigger... I came back inside and was immediately yelled at for leaving the fridge out in the middle of the kitchen. LOL
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If you have a metal trash can in your parking garage and relocate it at the exit then you can use it to trigger the gate.
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If you have a metal trash can in your parking garage and relocate it at the exit then you can use it to trigger the gate.
if you're going this route, you could also get a metal sign posted nearby that you can take down as needed, set it off, and put it back.
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I wonder if Corvette owners have these problems? There's very little steel in those cars; aren't they mostly aluminum and fiberglass?
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How these things work:
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/operations/its/06139/chapt5b.cfm
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A device for activating inductive-loop detector systems:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7907065
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A device for activating inductive-loop detector systems:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7907065
VERRRY interesting. Is this device actually available? I see the patent was applied for twelve years ago...
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AHA!!!! https://www.veloloop.com/
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I wonder if Corvette owners have these problems? There's very little steel in those cars; aren't they mostly aluminum and fiberglass?
Certainly no steel sheet pan, but still lots of big ol' iron pieces in the axle, differential, driveshaft, suspension, etc. But who knows, maybe 'Vettes do have problems with some of the sensors if the thresholds are set too high?
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I wonder if Corvette owners have these problems? There's very little steel in those cars; aren't they mostly aluminum and fiberglass?
since 1997 the floor has been a balsa wood and fiberglass composite... lots of the frame and major castings are aluminum, power transfer gear (crank, trans internals, axles, Etc) are steel. Body is composite, fiberglass and carbon fiber in some models in some places.
overall it has plenty of conductive area to set off even a weak sensor. Aluminum does work... so a tire alone could do it.
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Google knows everything... and I just found my Active GLT device mentioned here.
I am the inventor of this active device being sold on eBay.
The device really works for me and several buyers.
You can see eBay feedbacks: https://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=green_light_trigger&ftab=AllFeedback
There are also some posts and reviews on facebook: www.facebook.com/ActiveGLT
It is not an analog electronic device but DSP based. It works in wide range of frequency (10 - 200 kHz) and power, and in noisy environment.
My device does not violate any patents (the mentioned US patents are of Veloloop?). The device should conform to FCC rules, but I did not test it yet.
Here are youtube demo movies:
https://youtu.be/AoN1W-Ueces
https://youtu.be/qBP05_qJppA
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Google knows everything... and I just found my Active GLT device mentioned here.
I am the inventor of this active device being sold on eBay.
...
Hi, GreenL.
Thanks for finding the forum, and chipping in!
Anyone tried GreenL's device yet?
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Anyone tried GreenL's device yet?
(http://img.youtube.com/vi/-4nqv3q3yMo/mqdefault.jpg)
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I was hoping for a first-hand review from a party
without an interest in selling the item, not a map,
actually : - )
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I was hoping for a first-hand review
togo, you are welcome to buy and write the review :)
Actually, you can find the customer review on my facebook, in visitor posts.
Here is the direct link: https://www.facebook.com/ActiveGLT/posts/151687445526330
Hope it will be interesting.
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Ok, I'll bite and buy one. What is the best place to get it from you? ebay or facebook or online store?
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The only place to buy is eBay (facebook has links to ebay items).
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Its ordered... I wont be using it on the Zero, but I can report back on how it works with one of my bikes. I'll probably put it on the CR500... Mostly because with the attention that bike already gets, I don't want to run red turn arrows if I can help it. Its just asking for trouble. lol
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Thank you! I will ship on next business day. And hope you will enjoy GLT.
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The devices of previous hardware revision are on sale on eBay "Best Offer"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332153452418 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/332153452418)
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How does it work, MrDude?
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How does it work, MrDude?
Thats a good question.
I have confirmed that if you leave it on your desk in its shipping envelope, nothing happens.
Further testing is needed to confirm if it works for anything else.
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Awesome.
I'd be curious to see if it's more effective than a passive conductive loop.
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The devices of previous hardware revision are on sale on eBay "Best Offer"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332153452418 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/332153452418)
Can you share the difference between v2 and v3?
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The devices of previous hardware revision are on sale on eBay "Best Offer"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332153452418 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/332153452418)
Can you share the difference between v2 and v3?
v3 has the following improvements in electronics:
- LED output is short circuit protected
- Electronic noise filter
- SMD tantalum capacitor
- PCB labeling
- 2 mm slimmer - smaller plastic case
v2 and v3 have very similar firmware. There is no difference in performance.
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One more review, from Europe:
https://www.facebook.com/ActiveGLT/posts/175577453137329
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One more review, from Europe:
https://www.facebook.com/ActiveGLT/posts/175577453137329
I too am suspicious of the nature by which this might operate; To what degree it emits EMI to do what it claims?; I'd love to see a qualified EE tear through that...
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it looks legit to me (EE).
Traffic Light Sensors work by measuring inductance. The coil on the street is an inductor and you can alter its measured value by doing two things:
1- A big peace of metal goes on top of it, which change the magnetic field.
2- Another inductor goes over it and creates a "transformer" which change the effective inductance seen on both sides.
Hope it helps,
Giacomo
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Holy crap it works!!
That green light trigger thing I purchased works! https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-Green-Light-Trigger-Inductive-Loop-Traffic-Sensor-Activator-v3/332346508692?hash=item4d61654594:g:DnAAAOSwuxFYwR9l
So it took me awhile to try it out, but I just hooked it up to a battery and walked out to the gate here at work.. it works everytime. this is a gate that is NOT set for motorcycles at all. This is awesome. A gamechanger.. I need to get with this guy and start selling these things.
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Thanks for the report!
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https://www.veloloop.com/motorcycles/
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https://www.veloloop.com/motorcycles/
hmm. I think it needs a redesign for motorcycles.
having the box and loop together limits install options.
having the antenna loop stiff and wide also limits options
and having it mounted where it is in the pics, the rear swingarm, would hit the ground if you rode the bike that way.
Cool concept.. but needs to be adapted a bit for motorcycles. its clear that its currently designed to be easy to install on bicycles.
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I just installed the device I posted about on my Hypermotard.
The hypermotard has the exhaust under the bike, and no bottom fairing so it took me a minute to figure out where to hide and install it.
luckily the HM has a huge snout of a front fender... so I took the front nose off, split the top and bottom sections, and stuck the loop antenna around the front fender between the two sections... so now the loop is just over my front tire.
I then connected it all up and tucked the electronics in a nice hidden spot on the bike.
Now I just need to get 5 more for the Zero and the rest of the bikes.
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I just installed the device I posted about on my Hypermotard.
MrDude_1, I am glad you enjoy the Green Light Trigger. Better late than never ;)
https://www.veloloop.com/motorcycles/
Veloloop is my respective competitor. I read their published patents www.plan-bravo.com/lefty.html before I've started my project. Did not like the limitations of analog electronics. So, I developed the DSP based device, which is far more flexible and robust in real world noisy environment.
Not sure if Veloloop devices work or exist. Curiously, I sold my Green Light Trigger to Santa Clara CA, where Veloloop resides.
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The devices v3 are out of stock. It will take some time until new batch will be ready.
v2 devices with same performance are available at reduced price:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332153452418
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v3 devices with improved firmware v. 3.06 are in stock:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332346508692
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random update.
I shoved this in the nose/fender on the front of my Hypermotard.
It works flawlessly and I love how it gives me the green turn arrow near my house. It also lets me leave work without waiting for a car to open the gate.
Now that its installed in one bike, I'll have to buy another to be portable again.
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"in the nose/fender"
Wow, it works up above the wheel? The listing shows it installed below. Pictures?
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New firmware has been released and already loaded to eBay devices.
Main features:
* improved compatibility for parking barriers with card readers
* better activation ability for very weak signal
* user selectable LED blinking pattern
V2 devices - 2.07
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332153452418
V3 devices - 3.07
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332346508692
Both devices has exactly the same firmware and performance. The difference only in some electronics improvements.
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Has anyone posted a "How To" instructional video on installing this on a Zero? I see a few people here have done it successfully, but I am well aware of my mechanical and electrical ineptness...
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New device announcement.
I have finished development of the new device. It is both more sensitive and more powerful.
Our tests show reliable sensor activation at height of 1.5 meters above the ground. The device is designed for installation under the motorcycle seat (including the antenna). Belly pan antenna installation is not required any more!
First few devices available on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/333359171988
Info and updates: https://www.facebook.com/ActiveGLT
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I wonder if it's just poor placement of the sensors in the pavement.
Did anyone try backing over sensors that aren't paying attention to bikes? Your biggest field is around the battery or swing arm; if only your front forks are sticking into it, it might ignore it as interference from the gate.
The suggested device is pretty snazzy, though, you could put it way forward and change the fields around the bike to protrude like the engine bay on a car does.
-Crissa
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I wonder if it's just poor placement of the sensors in the pavement.
Did anyone try backing over sensors that aren't paying attention to bikes? Your biggest field is around the battery or swing arm; if only your front forks are sticking into it, it might ignore it as interference from the gate.
The suggested device is pretty snazzy, though, you could put it way forward and change the fields around the bike to protrude like the engine bay on a car does.
-Crissa
In my area the buried wire sensors are rapidly being replaced by TV cameras mounted on the signal poles. They seem to work well and will even pick up bicycles.
At the city where I used to work, to test the old signal sensors that have been used for many years, our signal maintenance crews would just toss a shovel into the intersection and adjust the sensitivity of the signal controller system to pick up the shovel. No magnets involved. When I asked the signal technicians about using magnets, they told me that they wouldn't work as the induction system is designed to detect steel and not a magnetic field.
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An inductive field is a magnetic field. The difference between a magnet in an inductive field and a piece of conductor is like the difference between a small knife and a basket ball. If you're trying to 'see' an object the ball is easier to see than the knife.
That's why the field produced by a loop emitter is better; it's like a big bouncing basket ball.
But an electric bike should also be a big dense occlusion to the field as well. Which would mean to me the sensor is aligned incorrectly.
-Crissa
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An inductive field is a magnetic field. The difference between a magnet in an inductive field and a piece of conductor is like the difference between a small knife and a basket ball. If you're trying to 'see' an object the ball is easier to see than the knife.
That's why the field produced by a loop emitter is better; it's like a big flashing light.
But an electric bike should also be a big dense occlusion to the field as well. Which would mean to me the sensor is aligned incorrectly.
-Crissa
The few signals that still have induction loops that I run across react exactly the same whether I am riding my Zero or one of my ICE motorcycles. If it won't work on an ICE bike, it won't work on my Zero - electric field or not. However, they are more likely to pick up my motorcycles that have steel wheel rims and are less likely to detect my bikes with aluminum rims.
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Yeah, the field occlusion of aluminum is softer than steel. If a magnet is a knife, steel is a basket ball, and aluminum is a nerf ball. It's still there, sure, but more 'translucent' than the steel.
So yeah, that difference would lead me to believe it's just misaligned if that happens. It'd be interesting to see a 3-D map of the sensor fields, but it'd probably be easily solved by just laying a new emitter loop that's not frayed or twisted weirdly.
The story of the metal sign-post is awesome ingenuity, I thought. Always great to have a backup method ^-^
-Crissa
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Announcing the new device.
GLT v5 is the improved version of GLT v4.
Main changes:
improvement in electronics,
PCB matches plastic case,
2 internal LEDs,
simplified (normal) blinking pattern.
The devices are available at eBay store: http://www.ebay.com/itm/333705725307