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Author Topic: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?  (Read 10933 times)

MrDude_1

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2018, 11:20:00 PM »

Is it that well shielded??

Yes. There is practically no magnetic field out from the motor.
even on an outrunner style motor with the magnets bonded to the can, a properly designed motor will direct the flux inward, so theres nothing much outside. On some cheap chinese outrunners you can get small flakes to stick to the outside, but doesn't reach far, and it is not very strong. Especially when you consider how strong the magnets inside it are.

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JaimeC

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2018, 12:04:57 AM »

Is it that well shielded??

Yes. There is practically no magnetic field out from the motor.
even on an outrunner style motor with the magnets bonded to the can, a properly designed motor will direct the flux inward, so theres nothing much outside. On some cheap chinese outrunners you can get small flakes to stick to the outside, but doesn't reach far, and it is not very strong. Especially when you consider how strong the magnets inside it are.

Learn something new every day.  I suppose it would've been easy enough to check by simply putting the bike up on my track stand, and having my wife hold the "throttle" enough for the wheel to turn while I held a screwdriver next to the motor housing...
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Doug S

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2018, 02:07:17 AM »

I still don't understand why the magnetic field around the motor doesn't trip those things, though.  Is it that well shielded??

I don't have any actual experience working with those inductive pickup coils, but inductance is pretty a well understood topic to EEs like myself and MrDude. I would speculate the following things:

1) The pickup is a simple coil of wire, buried just below the surface of the pavement. You can often see where the pavement was carved out and patched to install the coil, in an older intersection that was retrofitted. Of course you won't see them in a new intersection or one that's been re-paved since installation.

2) The coil of wire, which is an electric component called an inductor, is paralleled with a capacitor to create an LC "resonant circuit", which will have a particular frequency it likes to oscillate at. Smart circuitry is used to create a fairly small oscillation at the resonant frequency the LC circuit prefers.

3) The whole purpose of this exercise is to create an alternating magnetic field in and around the coil, which interacts with any conductive or magnetic objects in the field. Any conductor, but especially iron or other "ferromagnetic" metals, will interact with the magnetic field and change the frequency the LC circuit naturally oscillates at. This change in frequency is easily detected, and if it passes some threshold, an object has been detected. Since it's only the resonant frequency of the LC circuit that's sensed, external fields (like the stray fields that leak out of our motors) don't have much effect.

4) The objects having the biggest effect on the magnetic field have a high "magnetic susceptibility" -- they're naturally magnetic. Iron/steel is a great one. Neodymium is even better, but whether or not it's actually magnetized isn't relevant. It's just the fact that it's magnetic in nature, which means it can affect the field of the wire coil. More on that later, though.

5) Electrically conductive materials which are NOT magnetic can be sensed, but not nearly as well as steel. They don't directly interact with the magnetic field, but the magnetic field in them causes an electrical current to flow, which in turn DOES interact with the magnetic field. Aluminum is a perfect example of a non-ferromagnetic material that can cause a small but detectable signal. There are some magnetic materials (like ferrite) which don't conduct electricity, but would be easily detected because of their high magnetic susceptibility. Non-conductive, non-magnetic materials are essentially invisible to the coil.

6) Size, shape and orientation of the object are very important. Rare earth magnet materials would be easily sensed, but they're expensive so those magnets are usually very small, so not much use. Same goes for our electric motors, which have lots of magnetic materials in them and would be great except that they're still pretty small compared to the size of the sense coil. Keep in mind that those coils were originally designed to detect the steel floor pan of a car, which covers nearly the entire coil and is ferromagnetic, so it creates a huge change in inductance of the coil. Getting closer to the coil helps (my brother the bicyclist swears laying his bike down on top of the coil will trigger it), and location and orientation are also important....someone said driving up right on the edge of the coil, tangent to it, works well, and that makes sense. Putting the kickstand down could help too, as some people have reported, especially if you do it in the right place (I'd guess right on the coil would be best, not in the center of it). A steel-toed work boot might be effective in the right place too.
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JaimeC

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2018, 02:36:36 AM »

That last bit you mentioned is interesting.  Quite a few motorcycle boots have steel toes.  Hmmmmm...
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togo

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2018, 04:12:42 AM »

Size of steel plate and distance to coil are major factors.

If you get dynamic air suspension, you could lower the motorcycle when stopped.

(Let us know how that goes : - )  )

For a quick test, I would try a steel plate under the motorcycle.  A skid plate under the onboard charger should help, and I would expect that installing a DoctorBass belly pan with 2-3 SCv2 in it would also do the job. 

If you want more tangent about how to direct magnetic field one way and not the other, check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halbach_array and you can also go down the passive maglev rabbit hole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductrack .
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MrDude_1

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2018, 06:02:41 PM »

Is it that well shielded??

Yes. There is practically no magnetic field out from the motor.
even on an outrunner style motor with the magnets bonded to the can, a properly designed motor will direct the flux inward, so theres nothing much outside. On some cheap chinese outrunners you can get small flakes to stick to the outside, but doesn't reach far, and it is not very strong. Especially when you consider how strong the magnets inside it are.

Learn something new every day.  I suppose it would've been easy enough to check by simply putting the bike up on my track stand, and having my wife hold the "throttle" enough for the wheel to turn while I held a screwdriver next to the motor housing...

The cool stuff you want to play with is called Magnetic Viewing Film. random amazon link for the pics : https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Viewing-Film-Field-Display/dp/B00129CCGS

its pretty cool stuff, it lets you see the field around objects. Most magnetic devices do not have a round sphere of magnetic field.. this lets you see what part is strongest, and what shape it is. its fun stuff to play with and visualize an otherwise invisible force.
The first time I bought some, I ran around the house like a kid putting it over fridge magnets, then pulled the fridge out and used it on the compressor motor, then went outside because I realized the Air Conditioner motor is even bigger... I came back inside and was immediately yelled at for leaving the fridge out in the middle of the kitchen. LOL
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firepower

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2018, 02:54:17 PM »

If you have a metal trash can in your parking garage and relocate it at the exit then you can use it to trigger the gate.
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MrDude_1

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2018, 07:50:50 PM »

If you have a metal trash can in your parking garage and relocate it at the exit then you can use it to trigger the gate.

if you're going this route, you could also get a metal sign posted nearby that you can take down as needed, set it off, and put it back.
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JaimeC

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2018, 09:18:45 PM »

I wonder if Corvette owners have these problems?  There's very little steel in those cars; aren't they mostly aluminum and fiberglass?
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togo

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togo

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2018, 10:08:06 PM »

A device for activating inductive-loop detector systems:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7907065

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JaimeC

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2018, 02:26:58 AM »

A device for activating inductive-loop detector systems:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7907065

VERRRY interesting.  Is this device actually available?  I see the patent was applied for twelve years ago...
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JaimeC

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2018, 02:33:08 AM »

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Doug S

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2018, 03:44:08 AM »

I wonder if Corvette owners have these problems?  There's very little steel in those cars; aren't they mostly aluminum and fiberglass?

Certainly no steel sheet pan, but still lots of big ol' iron pieces in the axle, differential, driveshaft, suspension, etc. But who knows, maybe 'Vettes do have problems with some of the sensors if the thresholds are set too high?
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MrDude_1

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Re: Mounting Neodymium magnets to trigger parking gates?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2018, 08:48:27 PM »

I wonder if Corvette owners have these problems?  There's very little steel in those cars; aren't they mostly aluminum and fiberglass?

since 1997 the floor has been a balsa wood and fiberglass composite... lots of the frame and major castings are aluminum, power transfer gear (crank, trans internals, axles, Etc) are steel. Body is composite, fiberglass and carbon fiber in some models in some places.

overall it has plenty of conductive area to set off even a weak sensor. Aluminum does work... so a tire alone could do it.
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