ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: zoeloe14 on November 04, 2018, 10:12:02 PM
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I wanna buy a zero sr in januari but recently saw this crash and i'm i little bit scared about not having traction control because off the high torque.
Does anyone has had this happened to ? or is this just something that happens rarely ?
Don't want to let this happen to me lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDtwUDnsHA0
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People crash bikes all the time, for all different reasons. You're no more or less likely to crash on a Zero than on any other bike. Yes, the bikes have instant torque available at all times, but it's not going to cause you to crash unless you use it wrong. Personally, I think that once you get used to it, the total predictability of the Zero's performance probably makes it easier to AVOID crashing, if you ride it reasonably and get used to it before cracking the throttle wide open.
Take a test ride. Like you should with any bike, get used to it before jerking the throttle wide open, slamming on the brakes, or doing any other wild maneuvers. Respect the machine and it'll respect you.
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Bad things happen to bad riders and even good riders sometimes.
No one can say it will never happen to you or anyone else but it's pretty rare outside of bad road conditions (wet or gravel or oil) or people trying to ride them like they are a super sport bikes which they are not.
In that video you see he is slowing down and raising up since the lead bike is slowing. He is putting his left foot out and I can't tell if it makes road contact or not. That is a move for a sharp turn / slide in dirt bikes so the back end coming around is just what a dirt bike would do.
I hope the guy is ok and though the torque may have helped spin it around I think it was mostly rider error.
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Set the bike in ECO mode if you expect to be cornering and the road surface isn't what you'd like it to be, no extra worries. The performance in ECO mode is very predictable and you can recover traction most times with add or remove throttle because regenerative braking in ECO mode is applied when removing throttle.
In 38,000mi+ of riding a 2016 Zero DSR in snow, rain, mud, pavement, there's been maybe a dozen moments where I broke front and rear traction, rear traction, front traction, and all the times I went down (until a collision with a wrong-way pickup truck at an intersection totaling the bike) were 5mph or less just hanging out or trying to do something and then tipping over. Breaking front and rear traction is obviously game-over but I was still close enough inline (on a straight section of pavement) at the end of the loss of traction when I regained traction that I recovered with only some violent gyroscopic and steering oscillations - puckered for sure that was scary.
The guy in that video is obviously okay, just from the looks of it maybe some broken or dislocations but didn't impact anything and was wearing a full faced helmet and track suit.
I can only add to that to wear protective gear. I always suited up (Aerostich Roadcrafter + Schuberth C3 Pro) and in the crash recently that totaled my 2016 DSR that safety gear is why I'm still alive to write a reply.
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People crash bikes all the time, for all different reasons. You're no more or less likely to crash on a Zero than on any other bike.
I think it mostly depends on your riding style. If you like to go really fast in the twisties, sooner or later you're likely to come around a blind curve and go "oh S--t" (for any number of reasons) and find yourself on the ground. I ride conservatively for several reasons. I'm 61 and don't heal as fast as I used to. I've hit the pavement on a bicycle a few times, and don't want to do the same at moto speeds. I don't wear as much protective gear as I should; always a ful-face helmet and jacket with armor -- but below the belt just off-the-rack Levis.
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I wouldn't let that video or lack of traction control stop you from getting a Zero. The throttle response is very smooth and predictable on Zero bikes. The only time that I crashed was 100% my fault. The bike was new to me, and I just twisted the throttle all the way open as I turned the corner after a stop sign. The instant torque spun the wheel up way faster than I could react and I was practically on the ground by the time I knew what happened. Obvious lesson learned is to respect the bike and even though I continue to ride it pretty hard, I haven't come close to losing traction in the two years since.
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As I CONSTANTLY remind riders who complain about motorcycles NOT having traction control (not just Zeros): The throttle has an INFINITE number of settings between full off and full on. Traction issues happen when the rider does not know how to properly modulate the system. The throttle is NOT the same thing as the brake. One never grabs a fistful of throttle as a "panic response" like they do with the brakes.
Riders have to learn to recognize low traction situations and adjust their riding accordingly. Cold weather will cause you to have less traction than hot weather (I found this out myself painfully years ago) so you don't go riding at full-honk in the winter. Wet roads don't have the same traction as dry roads, and it is especially bad when the rain first starts falling.
Those white markings in the road? Those are generally painted with a TEFLON-based paint so dirt won't stick to them. Neither will your tires and they are especially treacherous in the rain no matter how long the rain has been falling.
Metal grates and manhole covers as well as the metal tracks on railroad crossing also have poor traction no matter the weather conditions. These are all situations riders have had to deal with for DECADES. All the "traction control" you really need is entirely at your command in your right wrist. Practice, practice, practice!
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I agree with Domingo3. I've had my Zero slid out from me twice (once on my FXS and once on my DSR) at very low speed due to loss of traction and both times it was my fault. Both times the weather was on the chilly side and the road was damp/wet. I gave the bike too much throttle for the road conditions and down I went. Fortunately no injuries except a bruised shoulder the second time. I was wearing full riding gear both times.
The moral of the story is be very carefull when the tires and road are cold and wet. I was running on the stock tires.
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I wanna buy a zero sr in januari but recently saw this crash and i'm i little bit scared about not having traction control because off the high torque.
Not much of an issue, depending on how you ride. Besides, you can always use the custom mode and reduce the percentage of max torque to anything you feel safe with.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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thx all for the answers, really nice to have so much help here :)
I guess youre all right that it is mostly youre riding style that causes such crashes.
Feeling a lot more convinced now to order a zero. cant wait till it's januari to have my own.
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I wanna buy a zero sr in januari but recently saw this crash and i'm i little bit scared about not having traction control because off the high torque.
Does anyone has had this happened to ? or is this just something that happens rarely ?
Don't want to let this happen to me lol.
Yes & yes in my experience (1.5 years, 21k miles).
I've had the rear step out on several occasions the first being on my ride home from picking up the bike :o
I attribute these half dozen or so incidents to inexperience (previous bike had a much lower power to weight ratio), tire profile, & tire temperature.
My lightly used DSR came with slightly squared profile tires that were not optimal for aggressive street usage.
I was able to keep the bike under control each time.
However, I have had the front wash out once while rounding an intersection & hitting wet'ish paint markings. Likely I applied front brake & the slide was too fast for ABS to help out so attribute to rider error.
This resulted in a test of the right Factory Drop Bar.
It did its job (tho lost a bit of wall thickness as well as bending the top mounting bolt & also slightly distorting the skid plate (all but tube wall thickness repaired)).
If you study the video carefully you'll see evidence of Wet surface (headlight reflecting off wet asphalt. In the last/crash corner, the camera bike slows way down but not the Zero.
While still in the corner, the Zero rider applies too much go grip which yields the Low, then High Side.
It would be nice to have traction control & likely one day it will be offered (if not standard) but for now it's up to you the rider to manage your risks.
As others have pointed out, there are different modes in which to operate the machine.
Eco is by default very limiting & Custom is user configurable.
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Zoeloe14 - you can also use the Zero App to modify the Custom profile to reduce the setting for Torque to lower than even the Eco mode. I believe Eco defaults to 40%, Sport has it set to 100% and you have one Custom profile to play with.
While most folks use the Custom profile to alter the coast and braking settings for regeneration, I decided to use my Custom as a 30% Torque mode while I got used to the bike. I am a new rider and like many older bikers, don't bounce as well as I used to so I wanted a safer experience with the bike while I was still green.
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I would like to offer a few comments regarding the use of Eco mode. On my 2017 DSR anyway, I find that the throttle response in Eco mode is so reduced that it makes the bike unsafe to ride. To me Eco mode is essentially useless except in a very specific situation and then only for a very short duration.
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Instant torque induced crashes on mildly slick surfaces are a real issue with Zeros.
Plenty of reports in this forum. Mostly low speed stuff, never knew what happened. These are experienced riders, too. The instantaneous torque of an electric simply does not compare with the slower rising torque of an ICE that an experienced rider can manage.
Not a deal killer for Zero, but it is an issue.
BMW has traction control on their electric scooter.
The HD Live Wire will have TC AND cornering ABS. A full on modern motorcycle.
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I would like to offer a few comments regarding the use of Eco mode. On my 2017 DSR anyway, I find that the throttle response in Eco mode is so reduced that it makes the bike unsafe to ride. To me Eco mode is essentially useless except in a very specific situation and then only for a very short duration.
Yep. Not ideal in any kind of traffic.
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I think the big problem with rear wheel traction on slippery surfaces is the lack of a flywheel to restrain and slow down the instant spin when the wheel momentarily looses traction. I have been riding motorcycles for 57 years and have never had a rear wheel loose traction and spin violently the way my Zero did a couple of years ago while entering a freeway on-ramp. The wheel lost traction and spun up before I could react and shut the throttle. The entire bike shook violently before I was able to shut the throttle, which brought things under control. Nothing like that had every happened to me in 800k miles of riding ICE motorcycles. I really believe that Zero needs to implement traction control. If BMW can do it on their C-Evolution scooter then Zero should be able to do it too. If you have the sensors to deal with ABS then you would think that is what you need for a traction control system. That plus programming that compares rear wheel speed with front wheel rotation.
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Yep, I think you hit the nail on the head Richard. When the rear tire breaks loose on a Zero it revs up so fast there's very little you can do to control the bike and down you go. I wasn't a big proponent of traction control, but after having this happen to me twice on a Zero I'm becoming a convert.
I've been riding for a long time too and have well over 100K on two wheels, and like you have never had this happen to me on an ICE bike. It's just something you have to be very aware of when riding a Zero where traction is compromised by poor road conditions and cold tires.
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I would like to offer a few comments regarding the use of Eco mode. On my 2017 DSR anyway, I find that the throttle response in Eco mode is so reduced that it makes the bike unsafe to ride. To me Eco mode is essentially useless except in a very specific situation and then only for a very short duration.
Yep. Not ideal in any kind of traffic.
FWIW, my 2017 Zero DS <no "R"> ZF 6.5 has MUCH more power in the eco mode than does my 2017 SR. But when in the Sport Mode then the SR is MUCH more powerful than my DS. Large difference between sport mode and eco mode in the SR. Much smaller difference in the DS between eco and sport modes.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Eco mode is good stuff when trying to eek out the last bit of range, but isn't a way to avoid crashing, nor a substitute for traction control. Zero will certainly come out with traction control in the next couple years. Besides it being among the most requested of features, all the necessary hardware is there so it's just a simple matter of programming (SMOP, as we used to call it at IBM). TC will be a big selling point for Zero at little recurring cost.
Many of us went through a "ride like a knob" phase as depicted here, or are still going through it (naturally wearing comprehensive gear to prepare for the inevitable). It's an interesting trade-off. We get to know two-wheel handling dynamics really well and become experienced and safer riders for life, but that cannot happen without dedication and multiple crashes that are a crap-shoot. Those who get past that phase without long term injury are lucky and can back off, and for that reason I have sympathy for newer riders.
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I would like to offer a few comments regarding the use of Eco mode. On my 2017 DSR anyway, I find that the throttle response in Eco mode is so reduced that it makes the bike unsafe to ride. To me Eco mode is essentially useless except in a very specific situation and then only for a very short duration.
I agree that Eco mode is pretty useless. I won't ride on the freeway without some getaway power, just in case I need it. It's possible to do anything in Sport mode that you can do in Eco mode -- just exercise some restraint with your right wrist. I'll admit there's some benefit to safety features like traction control, ABS and the like, but just sabotaging the performance of the machine doesn't seem like it adds much safety, and it certainly does subtract from the convenience and fun of riding the bike.
I really think the whole "mode" thing is for potential buyers with no EV experience. It's sold as this great range-maximizing feature that will help alleviate range anxiety, and I suppose it probably does that with naive potential buyers. But to me, it 's much like regen....sounds great in principal, but highly overrated as far as usefulness in the real world.
I suppose you could make the argument that it's possible to set up Custom mode to reduce the maximum torque available, but not limit top speed. I still don't like that solution, you still can't accelerate your way out of trouble very well, but it would at least give you the opportunity to go faster on the freeway if there's a reason to.
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Custom mode lets you coast. Very nice.
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The Zero design uses the swingarm pivot as the location of the drive sprocket. This has a lot of advantages. BMW made a 450 cc single cylinder race bike they called it CTS that had similar placement of the front sprocket. Trouble is they hired the best race riders they could and they kept crashing and getting hurt. At least that is what I obsereved.
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Pavement may have been a bit slick. It did appear to have a sheen.
It also looks like they may have been riding over the speed limit .
I agree it would be easy to have a electronic power limit. Make one where the motor can only gain so many rpm's per second. Sport mode should be this limit on dry pavement. Touring mode should be 15% (or so) less and rain mode even less.
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Yes, and yes. The Zero bit me in the arse in the first 500km's but that was my own damn fault, thinking that scraping the peg in a tight corner whilst WOT'ing at 50km/h was a good idea. If I would have done the same on any of my ICE bikes, I would have gone down as well so not the Zero's fault. Typical case of brainfart.
Anyway, carried the scars on the bike for a while reminding me not to be such a stubborn fool and carried on ;)
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I would like to offer a few comments regarding the use of Eco mode. On my 2017 DSR anyway, I find that the throttle response in Eco mode is so reduced that it makes the bike unsafe to ride. To me Eco mode is essentially useless except in a very specific situation and then only for a very short duration.
Yep. Not ideal in any kind of traffic.
FWIW, my 2017 Zero DS <no "R"> ZF 6.5 has MUCH more power in the eco mode than does my 2017 SR. But when in the Sport Mode then the SR is MUCH more powerful than my DS. Large difference between sport mode and eco mode in the SR. Much smaller difference in the DS between eco and sport modes.
-Don- Reno, NV
I wonder why that is? The difference between Eco mode and Sport mode on my 2017 DSR is dramatic. So much so that I don't even feel safe riding in Eco mode. Maybe it has something to do with the "R" models.
The difference between Eco mode and Sport mode on my 2017 FXS was much less dramatic and worked fine. That actually had some benefit, but on my DSR it is useless because it is so lame.
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I wonder why that is? The difference between Eco mode and Sport mode on my 2017 DSR is dramatic. So much so that I don't even feel safe riding in Eco mode. Maybe it has something to do with the "R" models.
The difference between Eco mode and Sport mode on my 2017 FXS was much less dramatic and worked fine. That actually had some benefit, but on my DSR it is useless because it is so lame.
I have a couple of guesses, but they are only guesses. One was the extra weight compared to my DS 6.5. My SR has the Power Tank, so it weights quite a bit more. But I don't think the extra 141 lbs in weight would make that much difference in the eco mode.
My next guess is they were trying to get the best range possible out of their top-of-the line bike for 2017, so they limited the performance in the eco mode. I think this is more likely.
FWIW, I do most of my riding in the eco mode. But I mainly stay off the freeway, trying to always get the best range on a charge.
But when I am on the freeway, or a long fast road with few stops, I switch to my custom mode, which I have set for:
top speed = 87 MPH
Max Torque = 86%
Max Reg = 25%
Brake Reg =100%
I find no use for the sport mode, I use either eco or custom, and switch between them as needed.
BTW, I used to have the top speed set to 75 MPH, until I found out how dangerous that was, where you have to go below 60 MPH to change modes. Forced to slow down to speed up? I wonder who comes up with such dangerous stupid ideas at Zero.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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My 13 DS vs my 17 DSR is the same way.
The DS surface magnet motor has a good bit more off the line "snap" than the DSR IPM motor.
MY 17 DSR eco mode is almost unsafe light torque off the line. The sport mode on the DSR gets you to 60 MPH much faster than the old DS but even sport mode lacks that "snap".
Only about 18 pound increase on the DSR just different motor types and bike mapping.
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My 13 DS vs my 17 DSR is the same way.
The DS surface magnet motor has a good bit more off the line "snap" than the DSR IPM motor.
MY 17 DSR eco mode is almost unsafe light torque off the line. The sport mode on the DSR gets you to 60 MPH much faster than the old DS but even sport mode lacks that "snap".
Only about 18 pound increase on the DSR just different motor types and bike mapping.
I feel that way, too. Just from my "seat of the pants" recollection, it feels like my 2018 S pulls a little slower than did my 2014 S. The 2014 model weighs about 10 pounds less than the newer bike, but the difference in acceleration seems greater than that small amount of additional weight would account for. ???
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There is no point in getting a Zero SR vs a Zero S, because the extra power is not usable due to lack of traction control.
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There is no point in getting a Zero SR vs a Zero S, because the extra power is not usable due to lack of traction control.
Oh lordy, that couldn't be more wrong. Have you ever ridden a motorcycle? I have an SR, and the extra torque (not power) is usable 99.999% of the time. The other 0.001% of the time, nobody's forcing you to twist your wrist too far.
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There is no point in getting a Zero SR vs a Zero S, because the extra power is not usable due to lack of traction control.
Oh lordy, that couldn't be more wrong. Have you ever ridden a motorcycle? I have an SR, and the extra torque (not power) is usable 99.999% of the time. The other 0.001% of the time, nobody's forcing you to twist your wrist too far.
In my case, I have yet felt the need to go WOT on any of the three Zero S bikes that I have owned during the past 7 years. So the extra power, torque, and of course cost, of an SR just never made any sense to me. All I want is reliable transportation that I enjoy riding,, which can keep up with the surrounding traffic. My "S" gives me that. :)
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In my case...
Fine. You're entitled to your opinion, and to buy a bike that satisfies your needs. But to say that the extra torque of the SR isn't usable is just wrong in every possible way. Some of us still want MORE torque. Twice the torque of the latest SR, or more than that. Enough to lay scratches or lift the front wheel at freeway speeds. And I'm a careful rider! Nothing says you have to use all the torque you have available all day every day.
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In my case...
Fine. You're entitled to your opinion, and to buy a bike that satisfies your needs. But to say that the extra torque of the SR isn't usable is just wrong in every possible way. Some of us still want MORE torque. Twice the torque of the latest SR, or more than that. Enough to lay scratches or lift the front wheel at freeway speeds. And I'm a careful rider! Nothing says you have to use all the torque you have available all day every day.
Doug, just to clarify, Richard isn't the one that said the SR torque is unusable. He just said he didn't want it. I'm in your camp, though. I would pay the extra for the SR over the S. On the way to work today, I was actually thinking to myself that I'd love to ride an FXSR. A size 6 controller on the FXS might be "unusable" to some, but I'm willing to take that risk and modulate with my wrist.
Off-topic, but I just ran across this https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=89559 . I've never been to that site before. Is "methods" on here under another name?
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I'm also in the camp that believes the "R" model is well worth the additional money. I like having the extra torque and HP. I have plenty of opportunities to use WOT on my 2017 DSR and it always puts a smile on my face. And it's nice knowing that extra kick is there when I need or want it.
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The last page and a half reads like: I ride on grippy dry roads and want more more more! vs. I don't always ride on grippy dry roads and have learned the hard way that Zeroes have a wheel spin-crash issue with cold tires on slick pavement.
I ride on both and both points of view make sense. There are times I want to blast through the sound barrier, and times I'm riding on eggs. Crashed once at 3 mph due to too much throttle on cold, damp tires. That sounds trivial, but I went down in a fraction of a second, faster than an ice hockey goalie could have reacted, and got some religion right then and there.
Anyone who claims they can manage wheel spin on a Zero at low speeds on slick pavement (not off road) has my respect, but even more skepticism. ICE rules simply do not apply here.
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Crashed once at 3 mph due to too much throttle on cold, damp tires. That sounds trivial, but I went down in a fraction of a second, faster than an ice hockey goalie could have reacted, and got some religion right then and there.
And you're sure traction control would have saved you from that? If you're leaned over in the middle of a turn, by the time the microprocessor even detects wheelspin, it's too late. Under the best of circumstances, traction control can't do anything about your tires losing grip sideways.
Truth be told, I don't ride when the temperature drops below 35 F (which we do get here in San Diego east county), because there might be ice on the roads. If you don't have spikes in your tires, nothing's going to help much if you hit ice on a motorcycle.
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Anyone who claims they can manage wheel spin on a Zero at low speeds on slick pavement (not off road) has my respect, but even more skepticism. ICE rules simply do not apply here.
This. On an ICE liter+ sportsbike you can try to save it by rolling off and squeezing those knees. There is little room for error to build up one's confidence in the power transfer and chassis response for powering out of a turn. That lack of confidence, combined with the 140-rear being too anemic to put on a V-profile tire to flick hard, limits the platform. Not shifting is great for line control, though.
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The last page and a half reads like: I ride on grippy dry roads and want more more more! vs. I don't always ride on grippy dry roads and have learned the hard way that Zeroes have a wheel spin-crash issue with cold tires on slick pavement.
I ride on both and both points of view make sense. There are times I want to blast through the sound barrier, and times I'm riding on eggs. Crashed once at 3 mph due to too much throttle on cold, damp tires. That sounds trivial, but I went down in a fraction of a second, faster than an ice hockey goalie could have reacted, and got some religion right then and there.
Anyone who claims they can manage wheel spin on a Zero at low speeds on slick pavement (not off road) has my respect, but even more skepticism. ICE rules simply do not apply here.
To clarify, I don't mean to say that I can react to wheelspin on my Zero. I mean I can use less throttle to avoid wheelspin when conditions are not ideal. I am also a member of the Zero crash club (on the day I took delivery) and gained respect for the differences between electric and ICE.
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There have been many critical quality issues, including with the engine - i met an unfortunate customer which engine suddenly stopped on the highway while riding, and I had the same problem (but at a much lower speed). Other issues I encountered involved main board (several time), the battery (had to be replaced), the firmware (had to be changed), some engine sensors (had to be changed) or the belt (suddenly broke).
This could be acceptable if the customer service was good enough to solve this quickly - after all we're all passionate. Unfortunately, at least in Europe, it is not the case. For the engine problem I was left alone for one month. For example - and this is a real example - if the engine breaks after the commercial warranty period (5 years) you will get no answer from Zero (at least in Europe), and the retailer wont be able to help you.
So from my point of view, unless you're ok to pay 18.000$ for a bike that might less only fives years, or unless the customer service improves I would recommend picking a brand handling customer and retailer relations in better way. In Europe KTM or BMW are good, because they sell so many models they can't afford doing this. Maybe it is different elsewhere of course, but check twice before you buy - there are of course some happy customers, but according to my insurance the rate of unhappy customers with Zero is much higher than for most other brands.
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To clarify, I don't mean to say that I can react to wheelspin on my Zero. I mean I can use less throttle to avoid wheelspin when conditions are not ideal.
This. Traction control simply isn't going to save your hide if you don't understand the bike, the conditions, and how to ride in those conditions. That's why I don't ride in icing conditions --I don't encounter them enough to know how to handle them safely, if it is possible.
And I'm probably coming off sounding like I'm anti-traction control, which I'm not in the least. It's a good thing, and the mechanicals are already there, so it's just a matter of firmware being written to provide it. Just don't think traction control is going to make you a better rider in bad conditions. It might help some, at best. ABS does help avert a few accidents, but the great majority of accident avoidance is provided by the driver/rider, which isn't going to change in the near future, if ever. None of these technical solutions will ever replace good skills.
And don't try to sound authoritative while saying something like "The Zero SR has too much torque to use without traction control." That's just untrue to the point of absurdity.
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And don't try to sound authoritative while saying something like "The Zero SR has too much torque to use without traction control." That's just untrue to the point of absurdity.
For track riding on hot 150 slicks, 116 ft-lbs at 0 RPM could be fun, even without traction control.
For anyone riding on the street, I recommend they save $2500 by choosing the Zero S vs the Zero SR. Only difference is 80 ft-lbs vs 116 ft-lbs. Since you have to keep the SR at 40% throttle map for rear comfort and usable range, keep the S at 80% throttle map.
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And don't try to sound authoritative while saying something like "The Zero SR has too much torque to use without traction control." That's just untrue to the point of absurdity.
For track riding on hot 150 slicks, 116 ft-lbs at 0 RPM could be fun, even without traction control.
For anyone riding on the street, I recommend they save $2500 by choosing the Zero S vs the Zero SR. Only difference is 80 ft-lbs vs 116 ft-lbs. Since you have to keep the SR at 40% throttle map for rear comfort and usable range, keep the S at 80% throttle map.
If you add the Power Tank to your "S", you can go with 100% power and torque to help move along that extra 42 pounds of dead weight. ;)
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I wanna buy a zero sr in januari but recently saw this crash and i'm i little bit scared about not having traction control because off the high torque.
Does anyone has had this happened to ? or is this just something that happens rarely ?
I found this version of the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leyPKbXo_jM
You can hear him spool up the engine and the rear wheel spin out on him, imo.
I was hoping this was some sort of rear braking issue or wet pavement issue, but I don't think it was. He was just accelerating out of a turn (didn't sound that aggressive even/fairly controlled) and the rear tire went bye bye.
I'm also considering a Zero and not sure if I want to get into a bike with so much torque and no traction control.
I test rode a DS 14.4 and a FX 7.2 with 81/78 ft-lbs of torque respectively, and they felt powerful, but controllable.
116 ft-lbs. of instant torque and no traction control sounds like a recipe for disaster. Especially for someone like me that likes to get into the throttle a little too much.
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What happens when the bike looses the rear to the right, the rider compensates by pushing the left handle bar. Bam, you are down.
What you have to do is ease up on the power while balancing the bike by pushing the right handle bar a few thousandth of an inch. Just tell your subconscious to balance the bike or you will high side. (Look up)
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I watched the video several times. Looks like he may have touched the stripes in the center of the road. Also, the bike looks to be a DS or DSR both of which have dual sport tires (80/20?). If he was on the power, leaned over, and hit the paint on those tires I’m not surprised he crashed. Just my opinion.
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Look, when you're using a power saw, there's a finite risk you'll cut off a finger or two. It's the user's responsibility to use the tool correctly and NOT DO THAT. You can build a lot of cool stuff with a good circular saw, or you can do a lot of damage. It's not the tool's fault if bad things happen instead of good.
Traction control is a good thing, just like ABS is. They can both enhance safety when riding a bike. But neither one of them is necessary to ride a motorcycle safely, given proper riding skills, and neither one of them will keep you safe if you don't have those riding skills.
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Look, when you're using a power saw, there's a finite risk you'll cut off a finger or two. It's the user's responsibility to use the tool correctly and NOT DO THAT. You can build a lot of cool stuff with a good circular saw, or you can do a lot of damage. It's not the tool's fault if bad things happen instead of good.
Traction control is a good thing, just like ABS is. They can both enhance safety when riding a bike. But neither one of them is necessary to ride a motorcycle safely, given proper riding skills, and neither one of them will keep you safe if you don't have those riding skills.
Kind of like "auto pilot" systems on cars? ;)
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Here is the video from all the angles. He wasn't on the paint:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDtwUDnsHA0
https://youtu.be/leyPKbXo_jM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhpA7Raj_Zc
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It's curious to me that if you search this forum and YouTube, you'll find a recurring theme that goes something like this:
"I'm an experienced rider with X years/thousands of miles on many ICE bikes and while riding my R model Zero, the back tire unexpectedly spun out and I crashed. This has never happened to me in X years/thousands of miles on ICE bikes"
In just a few days of searching, I've seen that posted over and over about the R model Zero's. It makes me wonder if there is an issue there.
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Ok left leg out in a turn ,looks to me like it touches the road, that I'd say went on longer than he thought it would after passing a rider over double yellow lines on a twisty mountain road on a bike he's not used to.
Annnnd he crashes, wow, I never saw that coming.
The theme can be explained by the fact that yes the two types of bikes work differently and it's years on one type that builds habits that don't work for the other. Twisting the throttle on a gas bike, sub super bike, takes a few moments to really spool up and if you feel it slipping you can pull in the clutch and let off the throttle and maybe stop your spin.
The throttle on electrics takes a lighter twist that is just a matter of getting used to. All of my adult riding miles are on electric starting in my forties and I have never had wheel slip for more than a quick instant going over dirt and gravel spilled into the road. I've never laid either bike down and feel in complete command of my speed. At slow speeds electric is so superior it isn't even close. I'm upright before I ever goose the throttle and all is well.
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The zero might actually be safer for a new rider than an experienced rider.
You're muscle memory for what has worked on ICE bikes is not going to transfer over to the instant torque and linear throttle of an electric bike.
If you come over from ICE bikes and don't understand and respect the difference, I could easily see you relying on muscle memory and giving the bike too much throttle in a turn.
Again, it doesn't make the bike itself more dangerous, but operator error makes any machine dangerous.
Would traction control help mitigate operator error? Yes. Is it necessary for the bike itself to be safe. No.
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On current models, it's the fast wheel spinup once traction breaks loose that makes recovery on a Zero more difficult. I'm trained on it, but it took time, and when I lose traction on gravel and mud, it's still an unpleasant experience compared to my ICE bike.
It's my understanding that Zero can implement this effectively on existing models, and let users toggle out of it with an override when appropriate, to keep everyone a little safer and happier, and probably waste less of everyone's money on repairs and injuries.
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Look, when you're using a power saw, there's a finite risk you'll cut off a finger or two. It's the user's responsibility to use the tool correctly and NOT DO THAT. You can build a lot of cool stuff with a good circular saw, or you can do a lot of damage. It's not the tool's fault if bad things happen instead of good.
Traction control is a good thing, just like ABS is. They can both enhance safety when riding a bike. But neither one of them is necessary to ride a motorcycle safely, given proper riding skills, and neither one of them will keep you safe if you don't have those riding skills.
I have a healthy respect for anyone who looks at a power saw and says, "Yeah, you probably shouldn't let me use that because I'd hurt myself." Also, I think few, if any, people are saying that Zero is culpable for riders that do dumb things and crash.
It's curious to me that if you search this forum and YouTube, you'll find a recurring theme that goes something like this:
"I'm an experienced rider with X years/thousands of miles on many ICE bikes and while riding my R model Zero, the back tire unexpectedly spun out and I crashed. This has never happened to me in X years/thousands of miles on ICE bikes"
In just a few days of searching, I've seen that posted over and over about the R model Zero's. It makes me wonder if there is an issue there.
To me, the issue is clear and can be summed up succinctly:
1. The power delivery is different with an electric bike such that the same throttle action on an ICE bike would not have caused a crash.
2. It was my own fault and I learned my lesson.
I think experienced riders may be more susceptible to crashing in these cases than a new rider because they have confidence. When riding through a suburban neighborhood like where I crashed, I wouldn't have been red-lining the engine if I was on an ICE bike. If I was on a similar sized ICE bike at low to moderate RPM, I could have whacked open the throttle at the moment that I did and been fine because I'd have been way below the power band. I didn't consciously think through all of this, but probably subconsciously I equated the feel and sound of the bike and what I was doing with my wrist action and down I went.
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Once during a ride a friend let me try his Hayabusa up Hwy 9. Coming out of the corner at 236 (before the stop sign went up), I applied a seemingly small amount of extra throttle and the rear end began to come around. I was familiar with the mechanics of that situation, but had never experienced it in practice. Fortunately, I managed to let off the throttle in a split second and ride it out.
Another time, my friend on an R6 was pulling out of a gas station onto ECR when she hit the throttle too hard and high-sided right there.
I don't see the electric bike as being any worse as long as it's power is respected for what it is. Maybe it's easier to forget. But if anything, I overcompensate and am unnecessarily conservative, particularly if I'm not in full gear, but also because I just got tired of solo crashing around 10 years ago.
My BMW 540i traction control is actually pretty annoying. On occasions when I intend to pull out of a driveway quickly, I find the power shutting down at the wrong moment... and there I am puttering out into the high speed traffic. That sucks.
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For me: why the hell does someone gets his leg out and unbalance the bike in the first place?
Keep it on the pegs, allways.
Sure, pro's do it on a circuit, but we are not on both probably.
But, back to discussion.
Just a rider error here. He wasn't in control here.
The turn came up faster and sharper as expected.
The guy in front also had a problem in the corner.
Direct drive is awesome on the Zero, but pay respect to it.
For total control on driving a Zero I never found myself more comfortable on any ICE bike.
No sudden power push or loss when on the power.
On an EV everything is 1 on 1 with your wrist, smooth delivery.
So I don't think new or old drivers makes much difference.
Just respect the power you got and never pull full open if you are in a corner, it will bite.
On an ICE you have delay, even at 7000rpm, on an EV it's without delay.
So traction control would be very helpfull just like any safety system.
But it's not needed...adjust your driving itself first... 8)
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My thought is that ICE motorcycles have considerable "flywheel"effect, which slows down the throttle response and rear wheel spin on a slippery surface. This can give the rider a second or two to cut power and control the spin. However, electric motorcycles have almost no flywheel inertia, which makes it hard to catch the rear wheel and back off acceleration when it suddenly spins. You need to be on the ball and have quick reactions when that happens. Not all of us are that quick on the draw. ;)
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For me: why the hell does someone gets his leg out and unbalance the bike in the first place?
Keep it on the pegs, allways.
Sure, pro's do it on a circuit, but we are not on both probably.
But, back to discussion.
Just a rider error here. He wasn't in control here.
The turn came up faster and sharper as expected.
The guy in front also had a problem in the corner.
Direct drive is awesome on the Zero, but pay respect to it.
For total control on driving a Zero I never found myself more comfortable on any ICE bike.
No sudden power push or loss when on the power.
On an EV everything is 1 on 1 with your wrist, smooth delivery.
So I don't think new or old drivers makes much difference.
Just respect the power you got and never pull full open if you are in a corner, it will bite.
On an ICE you have delay, even at 7000rpm, on an EV it's without delay.
So traction control would be very helpfull just like any safety system.
But it's not needed...adjust your driving itself first... 8)
This is called "Leg Wave" and is used if you have overestimated yourself in the curve. It can be seen that he have misjudged the curve and theZero straightens up (0,30) and then wants to pull inwards with this movement. Unfortunately he has been doing this for quite some time, so I don't think he knows what he's doing.
He would only have had to retract his foot before accelerating, the Zero would have straightened up and thus had more traction.
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My thought is that ICE motorcycles have considerable "flywheel"effect, which slows down the throttle response and rear wheel spin on a slippery surface. This can give the rider a second or two to cut power and control the spin. However, electric motorcycles have almost no flywheel inertia, which makes it hard to catch the rear wheel and back off acceleration when it suddenly spins. You need to be on the ball and have quick reactions when that happens. Not all of us are that quick on the draw. ;)
More than 100Nm and only a narrow tyre of 130 or 140 just get along badly in the curve.
A bigger tyre would cost too much distance.
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Balance bike first. Then reduce throttle. Pick line.
Find a steep gravel hill and learn to spin rear wheel all day long. (Going up)
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My thought is that ICE motorcycles have considerable "flywheel"effect, which slows down the throttle response and rear wheel spin on a slippery surface. This can give the rider a second or two to cut power and control the spin. However, electric motorcycles have almost no flywheel inertia, which makes it hard to catch the rear wheel and back off acceleration when it suddenly spins. You need to be on the ball and have quick reactions when that happens. Not all of us are that quick on the draw. ;)
More than 100Nm and only a narrow tyre of 130 or 140 just get along badly in the curve.
A bigger tyre would cost too much distance.
While I have not had any crashes on my Zero, I do agree with your theory. Once traction breaks, the motor and wheel probably accelerate very quickly.
"The Big Bang theory" in motorcycles is that in a ICE vehicle the tire recovers from the power stroke and if you could group all the power strokes together and add more time in between them, then the motorcycle would maintain traction. It was just a theory, but it was interesting.
I run a 150 tire. There are more options and you can get some deals. No issues even though the tire is a slightly larger diameter. The tire looks better and I get a little more rubber.
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Ow.
I've done that and it isn't fun. Wasn't even riding the Tail of the Dragon or nothing cool like that, I was pulling out onto the street at work. Leaned into my turn, hit the throttle just a hair more than I should, vroom goes the back wheel, and instead of low-siding the front twists away and flings me onto the street.
I put my 20-20 hindsight glasses on and saw the curb was soaked from the two-square-foot lawn being watered.
When your traction is in question, slow down more than usual before you enter your turn. If you're not slow enough, either straighten out and break or put more lean into your turn but never both at the same time. Once you hit the throttle too hard in a turn, you are become pancake. It's a matter of learning how to drive the Zero. Also keep your eyeballs peeled for oil slicks and potholes and stuff.
Fortunately the Zero has tougher knees than I do.
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> ... Fortunately the Zero has tougher knees than I do.
I recommend buying the Zero drop bars.
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Since I put in an order for a DSR, I've been revisiting this thread.
Interesting info in here.
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Zeroes are definitely prone to slideouts and highside crashes such as these, because of their lack of traction control combined with their extremely high and instantaneously available torque. See my latest post about that here. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10735.0) The only safe way to ride these things is in eco mode, which kills some of the fun by keeping the bike from giving you the full power when you crank the throttle.
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Zeroes are definitely prone to slideouts and highside crashes such as these, because of their lack of traction control combined with their extremely high and instantaneously available torque. See my latest post about that here. (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10735.0) The only safe way to ride these things is in eco mode, which kills some of the fun by keeping the bike from giving you the full power when you crank the throttle.
To say the only way to ride these safely is in eco mode is a bit strong. I did a low side once on my DSR in my driveway (it was wet from washing the car). Other than that one miss-hap, I rode the bike for 3+ years in 100% everything custom mode all the time without doing it again. The low side taught me to pay attention to the pavement before jumping on the throttle and to avoid high throttle in tight slow turns. You don't have to nail the throttle even though it's available!
That being said, I was glad to pick up traction control on my SR/F, and it is a shame Zero did/does not include it on the other bikes, I do believe it makes the bikes safer for everyone, but the lack of it is not a deal breaker.
Steve
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I can't help noticing that whenever I read of or see videos of people crashing on a Zero due to the rear wheel spinning up, it always seems to be a DSR which has semi-offroad tyres (or semi-onroad tyres!). Those tyres just don't seem to have enough grip for road use when the road conditions are less than perfect. Perhaps the higher centre of gravity compared to an SR doesn't help either?
It reminds me of an event from my teenage days (a long time ago) when I was a passenger in my brother's car and we were following a guy riding an offroad bike, fitted with knobbly tyres, on wet roads (and it was raining). As the rider slowed to turn into a side road my brother said "He must be mad to be riding that bike on wet roads with those tyres, I bet he comes off when he turns", and as soon as had he finished talking the rider very slowly turned, at about walking pace with the bike almost vertical, and bang - in a blink of an eye the bike slammed him to the ground! Offroad tyres are not good for riding on wet tarmac roads!
I bought an SR back in June and I've only ridden it in the dry so far, and the rear has lost traction briefly on a few occasions when accelerating flat out in a straight line (with the bike upright so I didn't have any problems), but other than that the Pirelli sports road tyres seem to have plenty of grip. Those rare occasions were usually the result of a small bit of gravel in the road that I hadn't spotted or couldn't avoid, but the tyres quickly gripped again. I'm fairly sure that my bike wouldn't have crashed like that DSR did in the videos in previous replies. (Hopefully that isn't my "famous last words"!)
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This is not just a DSR "issue." My FXS loves to break the real tire loose. I've had it happen on dry pavement, wet pavement, cold tires, lots of different conditions. No high sides or spills, but I've gotten very sideways. As stevenh said, you don't need to use the entire range of the throttle all the time. But that does make it more fun. ;D
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I bought an SR back in June and I've only ridden it in the dry so far, and the rear has lost traction briefly on a few occasions when accelerating flat out in a straight line (with the bike upright so I didn't have any problems),
Means nothing, in many cases. I have fallen off bikes that were straight up as can be, and several times. In fact, I do not ever recall falling off a bike during a lean in a curve or whatever. They have always been straight up and a big surprise. The reason was always found later, such as the time I was accelerating into gallons of spilled oil on the road, with the sun in my eyes, so I couldn't see it.
The problem is usually NOT caused by loosing traction, but right when you regain it. This is why every motorcycle safety class warns you to NEVER stop a wheel wheel skid. Let it skid to a complete stop. The way ABS works is to prevent the skid, but that is because you canNOT stop a skid that has not happened. The loss of traction is not the real problem, right at the regain of traction is where the bike falls over. Ask me how I know.
-Don- Yuma, AZ
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when you crank the throttle.
Sounds like you need to reprogram your brain as this technique works on ICE but not on BEV.
BEV lacks spool up so go grip needs to be twisted incrementally until the sweet spot has been obtained.
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Also, when you're straight upright at low speed you have very little angular momentum on the wheels, which means very little gyroscopic force, so you're at your most vulnerable in that position.
Once you lean, you're forcing the tire against the pavement and are increasing your contact patch.
I may be new to riding, but I know the physics.
-Crissa