ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: BertTrack on May 18, 2016, 01:20:28 PM
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I've added a very thin 0.5mm washer to the brake light switch to make it switch when i pull the handle in a fraction of the way.
With regen while braking set to 100% works nicely it will coast because i don't regen when off the throttle.
So the light will light up when i brake on the engine (in custom mode)
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I've added a very thin 0.5mm washer to the brake light switch to make it switch when i pull the handle in a fraction of the way.
With regen while braking set to 100% works nicely it will coast because i don't regen when off the throttle.
So the light will light up when i brake on the engine (in custom mode)
You could use something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Vololights-Motorcycle-Downshifting-Installation-Waterproof/dp/B00MEQ25X8
But your solution is cheap or free and 100% user controllable.
Clay
DoD #2160,6
currently riding '02 FSC600.
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Hey Bert I think I see what your saying but could you take some pics and post them. Sounds like an easy fix for those of us that like to be seen when we slow down as much as possible.
Thanks.
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I am guessing that since you added the washer, your setup may be different than mine.
On my 2013 FX, I just adjusted the screw on the lever to do the same thing. Other
than emergency braking, I seldom use the brakes at all above about 12 mph.
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that's a cool idea, and free/cheap! Will try that tonight.
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A picture of the washer in between.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Waqn8UREqzvjqPwLdYAyqH8vlo-DkxikFw
How it functions: https://youtu.be/dFOBmrzKWaQ
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I don't understand how this works, can you explain more?
I've added a very thin 0.5mm washer to the brake light switch to make it switch when i pull the handle in a fraction of the way.
With regen while braking set to 100% works nicely it will coast because i don't regen when off the throttle.
So the light will light up when i brake on the engine (in custom mode)
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I don't understand how this works, can you explain more?
I will try.
If you want to ride as economic as possible you want to coast as much as possible instead of brake. So closing the throttle you set 0 regeneration.
Of course sometimes you do need to reduce speed more than coasting and then it's best to recuperate speed as much as possible. So braking through regeneration only.
The regeneration is activated through the brake light switch. So if you pull the handle the regeneration will start when the brake light turns on. But standard this happens (on my bike) after the front brake engages. So it is also braking mechanically.
To separate the mechanical and electrical brake, and to engage the electrical before the mechanical you need to bring the electrical switch out a little bit more so when you pull the handle it engages the brake light/recuperation before it mechanically applies the brake.
If you check the video I made you see that by touching the front brake I'm slowing down the rear wheel because of the regeneration.
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Thanks! I thought it was supposed to work like this already - my brake seems to be setup this way too. It engages brake regen with just a touch of the lever without me feeling the mechanical brake engaging. But mine is adjustable, so looks like you got the same effect with the washer.
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I set this up today (0% regen with 100% brake regen), and I have to admit liking it quite a bit, even if it's initially unnerving to not get immediate regen on throttle release (could mean a little more stopping distance when I hesitate to fully brake). The adjustment on my DSR to ensure a comfortable margin of regen-only braking on the lever was small. The rear brake pedal does not feel like it has that margin at all.
I do have the GearBrake installed which flashes my brake lights, so now I know that cars will not be confused about whether I'm decelerating. I also have regen enabled below 15mph. It's also more comfortable on the highway letting go of the throttle momentarily, knowing that I'm literally coasting for a bit instead of slowing down semi-actively.
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We talk about "coasting" with 0 regen and 0 throttle, but in my experience the bike is hardly coasting. It loses speed much faster than it should if it was freely coasting. While there is 0 regen shown on the bike display, it decelerates as if there is still some regen present. Yes, slower than with regen enabled, but still much quicker than pure "coasting".
Also, brake regen appears to be triggered only by the use of the front hand brake. The rear foot brake I do not think triggers regen at all. Is that right?
Are your bikes the same while "coasting" and using the foot brake?
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We talk about "coasting" with 0 regen and 0 throttle, but in my experience the bike is hardly coasting. It loses speed much faster than it should if it was freely coasting. While there is 0 regen shown on the bike display, it decelerates as if there is still some regen present. Yes, slower than with regen enabled, but still much quicker than pure "coasting".
I've noticed the same thing. I think it's just eddy current losses in the motor as it turns. In other words, it does take some energy to turn the motor at road speed. Other than that, this bike should coast as well as any bike does, and it doesn't seem to me that it does.
Also, brake regen appears to be triggered only by the use of the front hand brake. The rear foot brake I do not think triggers regen at all. Is that right?
That I hadn't noticed, and it seems unlikely to me. I think the second level of regen is triggered when the brake light comes on, so it should work off of either brake. I don't think Zero has any other sensors than the brake light to trigger the second level, do they? I wonder if maybe your rear brake light switch isn't working or isn't adjusted correctly.
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Yup, probably those currents are slowing down the bike, so my thinking is I might as well capture some of that via regen.
As for the rear brake triggering regen (or not), I will check once I pick-it up from the dealer. I maybe mistaken, but just from feel I thought a light application of the front brake would trigger regen, where a light application of the foot pedal won't. I'll have to check the brake light switch does operate for the rear brake, as that is a safety concern if it does not. The bike passed state inspection just recently, so I assume it operates correctly ...
We talk about "coasting" with 0 regen and 0 throttle, but in my experience the bike is hardly coasting. It loses speed much faster than it should if it was freely coasting. While there is 0 regen shown on the bike display, it decelerates as if there is still some regen present. Yes, slower than with regen enabled, but still much quicker than pure "coasting".
I've noticed the same thing. I think it's just eddy current losses in the motor as it turns. In other words, it does take some energy to turn the motor at road speed. Other than that, this bike should coast as well as any bike does, and it doesn't seem to me that it does.
Also, brake regen appears to be triggered only by the use of the front hand brake. The rear foot brake I do not think triggers regen at all. Is that right?
That I hadn't noticed, and it seems unlikely to me. I think the second level of regen is triggered when the brake light comes on, so it should work off of either brake. I don't think Zero has any other sensors than the brake light to trigger the second level, do they? I wonder if maybe your rear brake light switch isn't working or isn't adjusted correctly.
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The rear brake does activate regen and the brake signal, but I didn't find a zone where regen would turn on without feeling the pads contact. I'll have a quick look today to try adjusting this.
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I must be missing something here because I don't understand this thread at all. If you have closed throttle regenerative braking turned on you can still just open the throttle a little and coast (there is a place on the throttle where it's not fully closed but also not giving you power). Or maybe you don't have that function on the FX?
Edit: Motorcycles slow down much faster than larger/heavier vehicles and the Zero isn't very aerodynamic, keep that in mind.
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I must be missing something here because I don't understand this thread at all. If you have closed throttle regenerative braking turned on you can still just open the throttle a little and coast (there is a place on the throttle where it's not fully closed but also not giving you power). Or maybe you don't have that function on the FX?
Yes, I know this coasting window, but it's far too narrow. Any road roughness will put the throttle position out of that band.
This setup allows you to completely relax your hand and get minimal/no regen, and then you can just rest the fingers on the brake lever to get maximum regen and braking lights so cars see clearly when you're slowing. This is much easier to work with for me, and seems to be more efficient because you can plan your regen better based on what's ahead.
Edit: Motorcycles slow down much faster than larger/heavier vehicles and the Zero isn't very aerodynamic, keep that in mind.
Mine is more aerodynamic and this setup makes a nice difference to me. I just lane-split a lot on my way home tonight, and a relaxed coast was a very helpful element.
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There is a simple 10 minute "fix" for this (just reading the title and nothing else here)
If you want your bike to "regen" before you actually use the physical brake pads then save some of the metal off from your brake lever where it contacts the master cylinder.
When you do this your brake lights will come on, activate your regen, but wont activate the brakes till you pull a little more. I did this to my bike a while back when I was frustrated with the way the regen was setup.
Currently I don't use this option anymore as I have moved on to a variable engine braking "clutch." In both setups I had the bike set to coast when I rolled off the throttle. I have not replaced the brake lever and still use this pre-brake light feature to "flash" people behind me or indicate I am slowing down via manual engine braking.
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Yes, I know this coasting window, but it's far too narrow. Any road roughness will put the throttle position out of that band.
Good Point.
This setup allows you to completely relax your hand and get minimal/no regen, and then you can just rest the fingers on the brake lever to get maximum regen and braking lights so cars see clearly when you're slowing.
I don't care about relaxing my hand, I hardly ever coast for long enough that I should be taking my hand off the throttle anyway. And I'm used to my right hand being in constant use (adjusting speed) on long freeway trips. But I do like that the brake lights automatically come on, I'm gonna have to try that out. Right now I have to pull in the brake lever slightly to get the brake light to come on with regenerative braking anyway so I might as well just use the lever (and I wont forget to use the brake light anymore).
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I just lowered my "eco max regen" setting to 0%, and I noticed that even the "eco max brake regen" only works down to ~12mph; is that correct? It seemed like in BertTrack's video he had made it so that the front brake lever would cause the rear wheel to stop completely, am I seeing that wrong?
I want to eventually lower the regen braking minimum speed to about 0-4mph, but I don't want to do anything that will void the warranty (so I'll have to wait two years for anything other than a slight physical adjustment.
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You need to change a MBB setting to allow regen below 12mph. I've also done this for a while.
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I just lowered my "eco max regen" setting to 0%, and I noticed that even the "eco max brake regen" only works down to ~12mph; is that correct? It seemed like in BertTrack's video he had made it so that the front brake lever would cause the rear wheel to stop completely, am I seeing that wrong?
I want to eventually lower the regen braking minimum speed to about 0-4mph, but I don't want to do anything that will void the warranty (so I'll have to wait two years for anything other than a slight physical adjustment.
I think in my test on the "table" it stops because there is no mass. So it stops the rear wheel before it notices the speed is below a certain value. That's my guess. On the road it doesn't stop just through regen.
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You need to change a MBB setting to allow regen below 12mph. I've also done this for a while.
Figures, thanks for the input Brian. If you don't mind I'll pick your (or one of the others on this forum to have done so) brain in a couple years, if that's alright =/.
I think in my test on the "table" it stops because there is no mass. So it stops the rear wheel before it notices the speed is below a certain value. That's my guess. On the road it doesn't stop just through regen.
Wouldn't the downward pressure of the bike/rider (more mass more friction) even out the stopping distance of the wheel? I would think a wheel spinning at 12mph would stop at about the same place as the bike/rider going 12mph, or at least at about the same time. Perhaps there is some other feature (or low level regen braking) that kicks in any time you braking at slow speeds. It was just odd to me how quickly your wheel stopped after 12mph, it was just a couple seconds.
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Wouldn't the downward pressure of the bike/rider (more mass more friction) even out the stopping distance of the wheel? I would think a wheel spinning at 12mph would stop at about the same place as the bike/rider going 12mph, or at least at about the same time. Perhaps there is some other feature (or low level regen braking) that kicks in any time you braking at slow speeds. It was just odd to me how quickly your wheel stopped after 12mph, it was just a couple seconds.
I think that because of the 100% regen it slows the wheel hard, and it takes too long for the control system to stop regen when it detects a low enough speed, and so by the time the regen is switched off the wheel is practically at a stop. This only applies of course when the wheel is moving freely. That's my idea of what's happening.
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The regen not bringing you a stop, less you make modifications in DVT to the controller programming, is done so the bike won't run backwards if I recall.
Though I am sure there are other reasons as well.
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Im spit-balling a guess... but I would bet the 12mph or so cutoff is right around the area where regen stops putting power into the battery from the motor, and starts needing power from the battery to further slow the bike.
to put power in, you need voltage higher than the battery. The motor-as-a-generator creates its voltage and power as a direct relationship with RPM. motor RPM gets too low, and it doesnt make enough voltage to go back into the battery... and actually REQUIRES power to slow the bike any further.
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Im spit-balling a guess... but I would bet the 12mph or so cutoff is right around the area where regen stops putting power into the battery from the motor, and starts needing power from the battery to further slow the bike.
to put power in, you need voltage higher than the battery. The motor-as-a-generator creates its voltage and power as a direct relationship with RPM. motor RPM gets too low, and it doesnt make enough voltage to go back into the battery... and actually REQUIRES power to slow the bike any further.
This is what I've heard, that it wastes some power as described. I don't mind it and it hasn't caused a measurable effect.
The safety consideration also has been a nonissue for me.
OTOH, I do expect to get a reverse mode installed soon. So there's my comfort level.
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Yes, I confirmed my rear brake does both. I was fooled because on my bike the rear brake foot pedal needs to be stepped on with some force (the spring is stiff) and it has quite a bit of travel before it actuates the brake light and regen. By that time I think the friction has kicked-in noticeably. Unlike the front brake, which actuates them with just a touch and before the friction kicks-in.
Any ideas if there is an adjustment for the brake light activation switch on the rear foot brake? I have not looked at it yet.
The rear brake does activate regen and the brake signal, but I didn't find a zone where regen would turn on without feeling the pads contact. I'll have a quick look today to try adjusting this.