ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: calamarichris on January 17, 2018, 01:21:51 PM
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Wouldn't it make more sense to provide the Zero line with a J1772 charge where the current charge port is? And then provide an external adapter with the bike that can be plugged into that?
I'm still waiting on my 2018 SR with both the standard charger, and with the tank charger, which seems silly to carry around, wasting energy to accelerate, carry, and decelerate. I'm no electrical engineer, and am new 'round these parts. ELI5 = Explain Like I'm 5 years old.
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You're right. One day when their fast charger design matures and proves itself they just might do that.
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Economics. EVERYBODY has standard household outlets, not everybody has a J1772 outlet handy. Most people don't need fast charging; they plug in at night and use the bike for local riding during the day. It is, therefore, more economically viable to configure the bike for the majority and allow the minority the option of something else if they prefer.
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I'm the prototypical user who doesn't need fast charging. I have it for convenience. As such, I'm going to boldly proclaim than EVERYBODY NEEDS FAST CHARGING! If you think you don't, that might be because you haven't gone through the heartbreak of living without it. BTW, the stock charger cord isn't the same as a printer cord. Typical computer-grade cords aren't thick enough for the current.
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As long as I have 5 other gasoline-powered motorcycles in my garage (one would do just fine), I don't need fast charging and my 120V household outlet does just fine to recharge my Zero overnight. I use my Zero mostly for utility trips, when it replaces my car (I hate driving cars) within a 50-mile radius and I use my IC motorcycles for longer trips. So for me, level 1 charging works well.
Keep in mind that Zero wants to sell their bikes to new customers that know nothing about fast charging, or all of the other stuff talked about here by the "faithful", to expand their market. People who have never owned an electric motorcycle all know where to find a household electrical outlet, but stuff like fast DC charging, various types of 240V plugs, J1772 plugs and other things that you know about but the general public has never heard of, is not going to sell electric motorcycles to people who have never owned one. :)
Zero is well aware that getting new customers is the key to their future success. The rest of us that post here are going to buy them no matter what charging methods are offered - even if we have to carry around our own "superchargers". ;)
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ELI5 = Explain Like I'm 5 years old.
Similar to DPsSRnSD, I use my slow-charger the huge majority of the time, charging overnight for my next day's commute. That couldn't work better here in So Cal (I'm in El Cajon, so very close to your area).
But I'm also with him in strongly advocating some sort or other of a fast-charging solution. I can now ride up to Orange County to visit my family without spending the night recharging, one day I rode up to Idyllwild and back, and I'm seriously considering gearing up for some motorcycle camping trips next riding season (if I decide it's worth working it into the budget). I've also taken a day ride with some friends out to Borrego, headed out to the Golden Nugget to play some blackjack, and am seriously considering riding up the coast to my old stomping grounds, Santa Cruz. You don't have those options without fast charging, and it's a real game-changer. You may not do it often, but being able to when you want to really changes the way you think about your bike -- it's not just a power commuter anymore, it's a road machine (if a slow one) now as well.
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I don't have as many ICE bikes as Richard, but his logic is similar to mine. The right tool for the right job. Last year I did almost as much mileage on my Zero as I did my two ICE bikes combined, because most of my riding is commuting back and forth to work and short day rides. I don't care WHAT kind of fast charging you have, as of this year I can still get a lot more range out of a five minute stop at a gas station (300 miles for the K1200LT) than I can for any length stop to charge up the Zero.
Until that changes, I will always have ICE motorcycles. But for quick runs to dinner, movies, errands. appointments or a ride down to the beach to clear my head; you can't beat the Zero.
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I was unclear. Is it impossible to have one J1772 interface that can both fast-charge at EV charging stations AND slow-charge at home with a plug/adapter that plugs straight into a standard household outlet? Or does the J1772 charge at only one rate?
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I was unclear. Is it impossible to have one J1772 interface that can both fast-charge at EV charging stations AND slow-charge at home with a plug/adapter that plugs straight into a standard household outlet? Or does the J1772 charge at only one rate?
No, it isn't. For example, Zero and others sell an adapter cable to do the conversion from J1772 source to 120V inlet outside the bike. Also, Tesla provides adapters to plug their mobile charging accessory into 120V and 220/240V outlets.
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No, it isn't. For example, Zero and others sell an adapter cable to do the conversion from J1772 source to 120V inlet outside the bike. Also, Tesla provides adapters to plug their mobile charging accessory into 120V and 220/240V outlets.
I've seen the adaptors that go from J1772 to standard Zero-interface, but those charge at the slow rate only.
What I'm asking about is the opposite: the Zero having only a J1772 interface, and then an adapter that plugs into the J1772 via adapter/plug into the household outlet.
That way you could have both the faster EV charging rate, and the slower household charging rate going into the same interface.
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Since fast charging adds over $2,000 to the base price, I am PERFECTLY happy with the route Zero has chosen.
I *THINK* Brammo/Polaris did what you suggest in their Empulse model. That bike had an MSRP of $19,999.00 and had about the same performance/range as the Zero S for almost $6,000 less. Of course, a lot of that price difference went towards some of their odd engineering choices and not just the fast charging system (liquid cooled motor, transmission, etc).
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In general, EVs can plug into low power sources, such as 120V outlets, and higher power sources, such as 240V/50A. When plugged into low power sources, no matter what adapters are used, charging will be slow. Any future Zero redesign isn't immune from this.
Which leads me to this prediction: Zero, within a few years, provided their fast charger supplier remains reliable, will eliminate both the belly slow charger and the ChargeTank. The stock charger will be a belly fast charger, leaving room for the PowerTank or StorageTank.
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It is certainly possible, after all, that is what an EVSE is, and any of us with LEAFs have one. But as has been said, it was value engineered out because Zero's expected/desired market isn't aware, whereas the customers who are aware will figure out what they want.
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It is certainly possible, after all, that is what an EVSE is, and any of us with LEAFs have one. But as has been said, it was value engineered out because Zero's expected/desired market isn't aware, whereas the customers who are aware will figure out what they want.
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I'm not sure it was value engineered out intentionally, or that Zero customers aren't as aware as Energica customers. Zero has had problems with fast chargers, including the DC charger they tried. Once they sort it out I don't think they'll bother with the slow charger. Like with other EVs, an adapter will be required to use a 120V outlet. You might even be able to use the same adapter for all of your EVs.
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Here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMa35X_ExSo
I hate the J1772. I like to post this in hopes that it will change.
It's bulky (for a bike) and delivers just enough power to get the powers that be to shrug their shoulders and say "ok good enough" and slap the "standard" label on it and it swallows up market share.
Europe has such better options. The J plug's only place to live is in a home owner's garage with an over night EV charge up.
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The J plug's only place to live is in a home owner's garage with an over night EV charge up.
Because that's probably the only place you'll find 19.2kW J1772?
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I'm sympathetic with the OP. Maybe Zero had too much on their plate to figure this out previously. Too bad they don't have a stable full of MIT and CalTech grads like Tesla.
Good news is that the 2018 models can come with two practical charge options: the same overnight option using US household current, and/or for a lotta money: an 11 lb., mounted high, integrated factory option J1772 "charge tank" that adds an about 30 amp/45-80 mph charging option. This option needs a level two J1772 charge station, which exits in the wild but is not plentiful.
If you go for the pricey charge tank and are willing to lug around another 6-20 lbs of $500++ aftermarket gear, you add the option of charging at RV parks - for a fee.
Zero also now offers their latest greatest battery that increases price by about 20+%, range 10%, and weight 5%.
I'm in, but not claiming it's rational.
YMMV
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I was unclear. Is it impossible to have one J1772 interface that can both fast-charge at EV charging stations AND slow-charge at home with a plug/adapter that plugs straight into a standard household outlet? Or does the J1772 charge at only one rate?
No. It is not impossible. No, J1772 doesn't only charge at one rate.
J1772 is a protocol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772) (like USB is for computers) that supports different voltages and different current draws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Charging). Multiplying the two tells you roughly how much power the power supply can deliver. These voltages and currents start as low as 120 V and 16 A and go up to 240 V and 80 A.
For example, Clipper Creek is one company that offers a range of products (https://store.clippercreek.com/level2) that can connect your Charge Tank-equipped Zero to a power supply via J1772. That power supply can be a fast-charging public EV charging station or it can be a slow-charging 120 V outlet on a 15 A circuit in your home...or office (watch the video) (http://www.motorcycle.com/features/life-electric-stressless-seattle.html).
Does that help?
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Very much so, thank you MichaelJ!
Any idea why Zero would not equip all bikes with them? I just paid an extra $2000+ for my charge tank, so is it primarily a cost-saving measure? What's so special about the J1772 interface?
Just got word from the dealer today that my bike is finally leaving the factory today. Hope to have it next week!
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A J1772 charge port does nothing more for your charge rate than your wall pug if you don't have the extra 6kW chargers that are in the "charge tank"
The lower stock chargers on the bike are at 1.3 kW and that works out because that is all a house wall 120 volt socket can give.
It's like hooking a big fire hose to your kitchen sink. Your still only going to get kitchen sink level water pressure come out of the hose. You have to have hydrant level pressure to fill up that fire hose.
Hope that helps.
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My commute is 35 miles a day round trip atm, I could if I was careful do 3 days on a charge - just barely. but getting home with 2%-4% is a bit nerve racking still.. funny, I brought my fast charger on day 3 when I left with less than 27% (need ~32% to be comfy not driving careful) but forgot the J1772 adapter grr. lucky I had my regular cord with me, so i just went and ate a footlong while it slow charged up to where I could get home with 2% - an extra 1:20; the sub shop with free charging is another 5 miles added to the round trip since its south and I go north =P
or I can plug in every night and not worry at all. The fast charger is great for road trips though.
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Please don't use that much battery up on a regular basis!
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but getting home with 2%-4% is a bit nerve racking still..
Range Anxiety (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_anxiety)
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Very much so, thank you MichaelJ!
You're welcome!
Any idea why Zero would not equip all bikes with them?
I don't speak for Zero. Here's a hypothesis: maybe their market research suggested that a significant number of customers would not pay for a motorcycle that included the cost of a Charge Tank, but would pay less for a motorcycle that didn't.
To take this to an extreme, I might want to buy a Zero motorcycle that came with the feature "stops all wars and brings world peace". This feature sounds very attractive. However, the MSRP might be so expensive that I wouldn't pay for it. Zero would then lose my business to a competitor who sold a motorcycle without this feature for a more affordable MSRP, or sold the same or similar feature for a lower price.
Or in my case, I bought a competitor's motorcycle (a Brammo Empulse R) that was equipped with a J1772 interface because at the time, Zero Motorcycles did not have a Charge Tank product to offer.
I just paid an extra $2000+ for my charge tank, so is it primarily a cost-saving measure?
It's a time-saving measure. If you can recharge the bike faster, you can spend less time not moving. If you arrive at your destination sooner because you spent less time not moving, that saves you time.
If you believe that time is money, then saving time saves you money.
(Minus the cost of buying electricity from the J1772 charging station.)
(Minus the cost of parking in a parking lot that offers the J1772 charging station.)
What's so special about the J1772 interface?
It's a standard? You don't have to have an electrical engineering degree and bring your own wires and circuit boards to connect to random electricity sources during your travels? You have a better idea?
Just got word from the dealer today that my bike is finally leaving the factory today. Hope to have it next week!
Congratulations!