ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Emtkopan on November 12, 2017, 07:39:59 AM
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I've noticed that since it has been getting colder my range has dropped quite a bit. Usually I can ride the 36 miles to work at an average hwy speed of 80mph and have 30-40% battery life left over. Today with temps in the low to mid 60's I'm getting to work with about 25% battery life left over. In the morning when it is in the low 30's I got home with only 4% left. Wow, what a difference! I knew the cold weather would affect it some but not that much. I'm worried that if it gets into the 20's I may not make it completely to work. I haven't been running any heated gear either. I have heated grips but haven't turn them on yet. Anyone else seeing this drastic a variance?
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On my 2014 Zero, I have seen about a 20% drop in range between when the ambient temperature is 35 degrees and when it is 70 degrees. F.
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Block the wind from hitting the front of your battery if you can ... it will help a bit.
If this is your first winter then I could see where this might be a surprise but the cold weather does not play well with EV batteries and you will loose about 20% range so prepare ahead.
Charge at work. Keep the bike warm if you can before departing. Block wind where you can block it. And slow down ... I have had my bike down to -16F so far at highway speeds and even in several snow storms ... I have always got home. (27m highway commute with speeds up to 75/80 and I charge at work)
No charging equipment you plug in will make a big difference on your range as the w/hr used is ridiculously lower than what you use in 1 mile at 55mph so don't worry about that! ;)
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Slowing down is the best way getting safely home, or to work.
The other reason for the range drop is a matter of physics. The colder air is more dense, therefore increasing the drag, all other parameters remaining same.
Maybe you can improve the windscreen, and adopt a more "horizontal" riding position behind it!
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I’ll try that. Thanks.
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FYI, I am working with a designer to resolve the battery cooling effects which in my testing are the majority of the problem compared to drag issues from air density. That does mean we intend to sell a product, but it's primarily the designer's efforts that I am managing.
Related: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7517
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Yesterday it was in the low 40's when I rode to work my usual way average speed of 80mph. Again, 36 mi with 16% battery life left. Today it was in the low 30's. I averaged 75mph and tried to tuck as much as possible. But the time I got to work, 36% left on my battery. Amazing difference. Of course I had to stay behind a lot of slow cars as everybody was passing me. Now what do I do about my freezing finger tips? I wear thick gloves with Freeze Out glove liners. It's just my left finger tips. Any suggestions?
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Now what do I do about my freezing finger tips? I wear thick gloves with Freeze Out glove liners. It's just my left finger tips. Any suggestions?
In one word, Thinsulate. I don't ride in the kind of weather you're dealing with, but we do get into the 30s on occasion. I got a new pair of winter gloves this year, and so far (mid-40s is the coldest it's gotten so far) my hands are still sweating. They're thinner than my previous winter gloves but insulate far better.
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I've used VentureHeat SG40 Battery Heated Gloves to ride through winter for the last 8 years. This year I'm going to replace them as the heating elements in some of the fingers have worn out. Not sure what I'll replace them with. I tried the Fly Ignitor Pro Gloves but found the heating to be tepid. I might go with the Venture Heat Epic 2.0 gloves.
Yesterday it was in the low 40's when I rode to work my usual way average speed of 80mph. Again, 36 mi with 16% battery life left. Today it was in the low 30's. I averaged 75mph and tried to tuck as much as possible. But the time I got to work, 36% left on my battery. Amazing difference. Of course I had to stay behind a lot of slow cars as everybody was passing me. Now what do I do about my freezing finger tips? I wear thick gloves with Freeze Out glove liners. It's just my left finger tips. Any suggestions?
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Oh, and I have the Zero Handguards too which help block the wind.
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Anyone else get slowed when it's in the 40s? Like, 60 or 50% output, from a full battery (90% or so)? My bike didn't used to be like this, now, I merge on the highway and I can't even get up to speed with the slow lane in the morning.
Normal?
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Think of a battery like a human once you get cold you do not preform well you get very week, And when your warmed up you are powerful and fast. My recommendation is charge the bike in a warm spot even using extra charger to heat up the battery before you ride and try to block the front wind from hitting the battery when ridding. Also the best way to have warm hands in the winter is to have hand gards on the bike and then order snowmobile handle bar muffs and enjoy the warm hands.
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Here’s the thing, it was 10F colder the next day and I did the same ride, same SOCs, no slow downs.
Insulated garage overnight. Charged until ride time. Voltage sagged to 94v while at about full, in 45 degree weather. I used to ride it in almost 32 degrees without problems, two years ago...
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If the charger is plugged in but is finished half way the night you still have a cold battery at the start.
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45 degrees outside, 60 or so in my garage. And again, 35 degrees the next day, and no problems. I’m baffled. Has to be a bug. My pack size is 8kWh most days and my range and SOC drop accordingly. But hell, before the pack size bug in firmware 51 and 52, my bike would randomly slow down in the 50s and 60s. 2015 SR battery especially sensitive or flawed?
My question is, I don’t hear anyone else being throttled by cold, unless it’s below freezing and the battery is left outside overnight. When does everyone, if ever, experience performance issues in the cold?
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45 degrees outside, 60 or so in my garage. And again, 35 degrees the next day, and no problems. I’m baffled. Has to be a bug. My pack size is 8kWh most days and my range and SOC drop accordingly. But hell, before the pack size bug in firmware 51 and 52, my bike would randomly slow down in the 50s and 60s. 2015 SR battery especially sensitive or flawed?
My question is, I don’t hear anyone else being throttled by cold, unless it’s below freezing and the battery is left outside overnight. When does everyone, if ever, experience performance issues in the cold?
When my Zero has to operate in a temperature below 40 degrees F, I see a significant drop in range. But that is nothing new to EV owners and I believe most EV owners (including ones that own cars) experience that sort of battery performance drop when it is cold.
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Does your cut top speed to 70MPH, sometimes more, sometimes less, while at 90% charge?
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Does your cut top speed to 70MPH, sometimes more, sometimes less, while at 90% charge?
Not that I have noticed, but then I rarely go that fast and never when it is cold.
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I have noticed this type of slowdown with my 2015 Zero S on particularly cold mornings when the temperature in my garage is down to the low to mid 40's. I live pretty close to the freeway, within about 1/4 mile. Over the last several weeks on cold mornings I have had the speed limited to around 75 mph while getting on the freeway on the way to work in the morning. Doesn't seem to happen on my my way home when the bike has been stored in a warmer environment at work while charging. I figure it must have to do with higher internal resistance of the battery at colder temperatures causing current limiting, but don't know for sure. It can be a little disconcerting when this happens right as I am trying to overtake slower vehicles.
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Does your cut top speed to 70MPH, sometimes more, sometimes less, while at 90% charge?
One day I had power cut out on me when I was almost home. I pulled to the right, flipped the switch off then on and it worked fine. That was a first for me. I've ridden down to the low 30's without any reduction in power and I usually ride at 80mph up to 88 if needed. The hard thing for me right now is I'm used to riding away from cars for safety but when you are riding slower to save on power, you have to ride with cars or behind them.
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I figure it must have to do with higher internal resistance of the battery at colder temperatures causing current limiting, but don't know for sure. It can be a little disconcerting when this happens right as I am trying to overtake slower vehicles.
You are right and you can even see that in the logs. You'll see entries "discharge current limited (XX%)". That tells you the percentage the power (=battery current) has been limited to, because of the high voltage sag due to higher internal resistance because of the cold. Right behind that you will read a "MinCell" entry, this one tells you which cell was the weakest and caused the limitation and with what voltage.
The limitation of power is directly related to topspeed, as you need more power the faster you ride.
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Last year, the temp dropped to -5C here and no limit on the discharge rate was noticed. To add insult to injury the bike slept outside so it cooled really fast... Had to charge it right after getting home to avoid the charger refusing to start. The charger once refused to start the charging, because I didn't charge the bike right away but a day later. Had to wait untill the sun warmed the pack a bit... Glad I didn't need the bike right away ;)
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I always plug in immediately upon getting home. Also, while the bike sits during the winter, I leave it on the charger despite Zero's latest recommendation otherwise. When the temperature drops below 40, I'm more likely to use my C650GT for commuting purposes, mostly because of its superior weather protection along with its heated saddle and grips, and enough electrical reserve to power my heated jacket liner. As I always say: Gotta pick the best tool for the job at hand.
Yes, I do own a car... but I only use that in REALLY crappy conditions.
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Good insights, SRich and Lenny, that I didn't see represented in the wiki, so I stubbed out this section:
https://zeromanual.com/index.php/Common_Problems#Weak_power_in_cold_temperatures
I think we need more content in the motorcycle logs area too that explains how to interpret various lines in various scenarios, like Lenny's very cogent explanation here.
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Last year, the temp dropped to -5C here and no limit on the discharge rate was noticed. To add insult to injury the bike slept outside so it cooled really fast... Had to charge it right after getting home to avoid the charger refusing to start. The charger once refused to start the charging, because I didn't charge the bike right away but a day later. Had to wait untill the sun warmed the pack a bit... Glad I didn't need the bike right away ;)
I think a greenhouse bed warmer, thermostatically controlled, might fix this. There are lots of them on amazon.
(I'm not a cold weather rider myself these days, but I have a lot of empathy for y'all having lived on the indiana/michigan border many years ago, and lake-effect and snow-sludge and bone-chill live large in my memories)
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Meh, I 'fixed the problem' by buying a new home where I had the free hand in buiding the adjecent garage, so now it includes well isolated outside walls, an isolated garage door and a central heated floor. Didn't get the house for the Zero but it's mighty convenient ;)
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I looked on you tube for an old video I saw of a guy whose 13 DS would charge when it got too cold (couldn't find it). He had a hair dryer on high and warmed the pan and battery for about 5 mins and it would charge.
It was a pain but easiest and cheapest solution for an emergency home charge.