ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on April 14, 2019, 05:10:18 AM
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My daughter's 2014 S with PT's, long-suffering original on-board charger has finally given up. I was visiting her today and when plugged in the charging light glows green, starts blinking and then just goes blank. If you leave the charger plugged in for a while longer, the red warning light starts flashing steadly. When you pull the plug the light goes out.
Anyway, I was wonder what different options there are for replacing the charger? She wants to keep 120V charging at home. Besides installing a new Zero replacement charger, or using a Zero accessory stand-alone charger, are there other relatively inexpensive options on the market that can be used to replace the dead charger so that she can continue to recharge her bike at home?
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For that use case, I'd probably look for a used QuiQ... unless you're meaning <$200...
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For that use case, I'd probably look for a used QuiQ... unless you're meaning <$200...
My only concern about a stand-alone charger is if it will be a plug-and-play setup that doesn't require any MBS reprogramming and the charge status will show up on the display screen, like happens with the original charger, so that we know when the battery pack is fully charged. I wasn't so concerned about the price, I just wanted to discover what other charging options might be available that are worth considering, besides replacing the original onboard charger.
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The only available emulation of the original charger is via DigiNow 2.5. If you use a single DigiNow unit on 110V input, it will draw 15A by default which works with most circuits.
The QuiQ and other accessory chargers like the Hollywood Electrics Elcon 2500 do not (and cannot) engage the same protocol that the onboard charger does, because they're only using signaling pins, not engaging in CANBus message observation and signaling.
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The QuiQ and other accessory chargers like the Hollywood Electrics Elcon 2500 do not (and cannot) engage the same protocol that the onboard charger does, because they're only using signaling pins, not engaging in CANBus message observation and signaling.
So that means what ? QuiQ won't cause for the dash to show when the pack is fully charged ?
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My onboard charger is almost dead (only charges up to 85-89%), so I only use the QuiQ charger at home.
It behaves in every way (displays charge status, estimated time to 100%, etc..) as the onboard charger used to when it was still healthy.
The only difference is that I need to key on before plugging in (but I can turn off and remove the key after charging begins).
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The only available emulation of the original charger is via DigiNow 2.5. If you use a single DigiNow unit on 110V input, it will draw 15A by default which works with most circuits.
The QuiQ and other accessory chargers like the Hollywood Electrics Elcon 2500 do not (and cannot) engage the same protocol that the onboard charger does, because they're only using signaling pins, not engaging in CANBus message observation and signaling.
That and the response from francesco is the sort of information that I was looking for. I want to explore the different options to the onboard charger and their pros and cons before replacing the dead duck. Personally, I would suck it up and just go for replacing the Zero onboard charger with a new (and hopefully more reliable) one, but my son-in-law always likes to do things the hard way and would likely want to come up with a WWII hand-crank radio battery charger to recharge the bike. ::) But before he does that, I wanted to provide him with better options. ;)
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DigiNow's web site states that they only sell the 10kW triple charger and no longer sell single or even dual units. nice to have 10kW but not the price. That won't work for me as I live off-grid and I'm limited to 3.2kW at 120V.
Fingers crossed that my '13 OEM keeps on keeping on, but it does act up at times......
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My onboard charger is almost dead (only charges up to 85-89%), so I only use the QuiQ charger at home.
It behaves in every way (displays charge status, estimated time to 100%, etc..) as the onboard charger used to when it was still healthy.
The only difference is that I need to key on before plugging in (but I can turn off and remove the key after charging begins).
I thought the QuiQ charger could only be used in combination with the onboard charger. Are you saying that's not the case and it can be used as a stand alone charger?
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My onboard charger is almost dead (only charges up to 85-89%), so I only use the QuiQ charger at home.
It behaves in every way (displays charge status, estimated time to 100%, etc..) as the onboard charger used to when it was still healthy.
The only difference is that I need to key on before plugging in (but I can turn off and remove the key after charging begins).
I thought the QuiQ charger could only be used in combination with the onboard charger. Are you saying that's not the case and it can be used as a stand alone charger?
Good question. :)
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QuiQ and other chargers that work as accessories can charge the bike on their own with key-on enable before activating, and they will work as CC-CV program chargers tuned to the Zero pack specifications.
(Please only use chargers that have been customized at least to CC-CV behavior for the Zero battery, and also have basic electrical protections and professionally crimped pins with appropriate gauge cabling.)
However, they will not maintain long term cell balance as I understand the BMS activates the onboard charger for, and they are not otherwise controllable by the BMS the way the DigiNow charge controller implements. So you’ll be supervising the charger.
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QuiQ and other chargers that work as accessories can charge the bike on their own with key-on enable before activating, and they will work as CC-CV program chargers tuned to the Zero pack specifications.
(Please only use chargers that have been customized at least to CC-CV behavior for the Zero battery, and also have basic electrical protections and professionally crimped pins with appropriate gauge cabling.)
However, they will not maintain long term cell balance as I understand the BMS activates the onboard charger for, and they are not otherwise controllable by the BMS the way the DigiNow charge controller implements. So you’ll be supervising the charger.
That could be a problem for my daughter. What is "CC-CV"? Constant current and constant voltage?
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QuiQ and other chargers that work as accessories can charge the bike on their own with key-on enable before activating, and they will work as CC-CV program chargers tuned to the Zero pack specifications.
(Please only use chargers that have been customized at least to CC-CV behavior for the Zero battery, and also have basic electrical protections and professionally crimped pins with appropriate gauge cabling.)
However, they will not maintain long term cell balance as I understand the BMS activates the onboard charger for, and they are not otherwise controllable by the BMS the way the DigiNow charge controller implements. So you’ll be supervising the charger.
That could be a problem for my daughter. What is "CC-CV"? Constant current and constant voltage?
Constant current, up to a target voltage, and then constant voltage ramping down current.
The BMS will balance the cells during the ramp down phase. But not later.
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Thanks. :)
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When my charger died I used the QiiQ charger for a while as my replacement. It took a minute longer to set up charging but otherwise behaved exactly like the stock charger.
Really though, spending $800 on a replacement stock charger ended up being the right move. It's relatively affordable, easy enough to install, and functions just like I need it too. I can see the difference in the new stock charger in that there is a lot more visible effort in sealing it and it being waterproof, which I suspect had to do with at least some of the earlier charger failures.
The other options are too expensive and/or complicated to be worth it for me. YMMV.
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When my charger died I used the QiiQ charger for a while as my replacement. It took a minute longer to set up charging but otherwise behaved exactly like the stock charger.
Really though, spending $800 on a replacement stock charger ended up being the right move. It's relatively affordable, easy enough to install, and functions just like I need it too. I can see the difference in the new stock charger in that there is a lot more visible effort in sealing it and it being waterproof, which I suspect had to do with at least some of the earlier charger failures.
The other options are too expensive and/or complicated to be worth it for me. YMMV.
Thanks, caza. I think I will go that route and pick up a new Zero on-board charger. I'll give it to my daughter for Mother's Day. ;)
Even if the replacement charger only lasts another 5 years, that amounts to $200 a year, which is a lot less than I pay to maintain my BMW motorcycles every year.
Otherwise she will probably end up needing to hand-crank a portable generator attached to a stationary bicycle to recharge her battery pack. :o
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would be great if folks offer up different charger options and we could make this a sticky.
This is one area I am dreading as a future Zero owner, is how to upgrade or replace charging systems without being an Electrical Engineer.
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There's no mystery, only answers that aren't where you're looking. Zero has a parts system and replaces broken parts. It covers them under warranty reasonably well.
Here are some unofficial manual pages for this topic. The wiki there is easier to navigate than a bunch of pinned threads:
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Chargers
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Potential_Buyers_Guide
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charger
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thanks, did find that site, but didn't know if it was affiliated with this one.
There's no mystery, only answers that aren't where you're looking. Zero has a parts system and replaces broken parts. It covers them under warranty reasonably well.
Here are some unofficial manual pages for this topic. The wiki there is easier to navigate than a bunch of pinned threads:
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Chargers
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Potential_Buyers_Guide
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charger
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There's no mystery, only answers that aren't where you're looking. Zero has a parts system and replaces broken parts. It covers them under warranty reasonably well.
Here are some unofficial manual pages for this topic. The wiki there is easier to navigate than a bunch of pinned threads:
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Chargers
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Potential_Buyers_Guide
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charger
Thanks Brian. Those links were really helpful in understanding the various charger options, how they work and how to remove the stock charger. I assume that installing a new one would be just the opposite of the removal process.
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Thanks Brian. Those links were really helpful in understanding the various charger options, how they work and how to remove the stock charger. I assume that installing a new one would be just the opposite of the removal process.
I believe that it is, but haven't undergone that process. Everything to my knowledge is electrically safe to connect while the bike is turned off, and the onboard charger's connections are all obvious. I don't think the MBB needs to do anything more than recognize that a charger of the right type is present over CAN/etc.
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There's no mystery, only answers that aren't where you're looking. Zero has a parts system and replaces broken parts. It covers them under warranty reasonably well.
Here are some unofficial manual pages for this topic. The wiki there is easier to navigate than a bunch of pinned threads:
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Chargers
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Potential_Buyers_Guide
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charger
Thanks Brian. Those links were really helpful in understanding the various charger options, how they work and how to remove the stock charger. I assume that installing a new one would be just the opposite of the removal process.
I'm the lead in maintaining that website, and I generally do it by compiling knowledge from threads like these (which kept recurring and getting hard to track), in addition to going and interviewing people who work for or with Zero.
The site isn't complete but it generally represents knowledge that's been reported or confirmed enough times that we could say for sure how something worked or how to do something.
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I assume that installing a new one would be just the opposite of the removal process.
Yeah it's pretty much exactly the same. Hardest part is reaching the tiny allen screws holding the actual 110v plug onto the bike. I took my passenger peg off and still struggled a bit with it because the bolts were slightly rusted. Aside from that it was mostly an easy process.
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My daughter just told me that her charger is working again. :) She rode the bike to another town and ran the pack down to 66%. After returning home, she plugged the charger in and it started charging. The display is currently showing 89% and climbing. I don't get it as this weekend it wouldn't charge at all. ???
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My daughter just told me that her charger is working again. :) She rode the bike to another town and ran the pack down to 66%. After returning home, she plugged the charger in and it started charging. The display is currently showing 89% and climbing. I don't get it as this weekend it wouldn't charge at all. ???
Partially disassemble everything and look for corroded connections, frayed wires, or standing water maybe?
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My daughter just told me that her charger is working again. :) She rode the bike to another town and ran the pack down to 66%. After returning home, she plugged the charger in and it started charging. The display is currently showing 89% and climbing. I don't get it as this weekend it wouldn't charge at all. ???
Partially disassemble everything and look for corroded connections, frayed wires, or standing water maybe?
I don't think the bike has ever seen any water, standing or otherwise. It is very dirty as my daughter is really into conserving the molecule. That makes me reluctant to touch anything inside the bike. But a corroded connection, due to 5 years of dust accumulation, might be rearing its ugly head. I heard this morning that the charger shut down at 89% and refuses to turn on to charge any higher than that. So my money is on a funky charger that is getting ready for retirement. ;) Or it could be a goofy cell that is charging more quickly than other cells in the pack and causing the BMS to trigger a shut down of the charger due to a voltage spike. ???
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The charger is by far the most likely subsystem to have issues in situations like this. The C14 inlet is cheap and easiest to clean and replace. The connections at the rear of the charger might also benefit from a check and cleaning.
Any hypothesis about the battery is readily checkable by the cell imbalance indication, followed by the logs.
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The charger is by far the most likely subsystem to have issues in situations like this. The C14 inlet is cheap and easiest to clean and replace. The connections at the rear of the charger might also benefit from a check and cleaning.
Any hypothesis about the battery is readily checkable by the cell imbalance indication, followed by the logs.
I keep forgetting to check the cell balance when I visit her. I am the only one that uses the app to check the bike. Apparently getting the cell phone to connect to the bike via Bluetooth is such a struggle that she doesn't want to do it. I can make the connection, but I kind of have to fool the system being cooperative. I am not sure if the app can download the logs from her bike. I don't ever recall seeing the same screen option on her phone that I have on the app for my 2018 model, which has a log downloading button. Her app screen and options are different from mine. I will have to check it out during my next visit.
I agree that cleaning is likely worthwhile. The plastic front and bottom enclosures have never been removed since the bike left the factory.
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@Richard230
I have a QuiQ for Zero 2013+ that is collecting dust at the local makerspace in Sparks NV (East Reno) and not being used since my bike was destroyed. Yours to have if you will come pick it up.
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@Richard230
I have a QuiQ for Zero 2013+ that is collecting dust at the local makerspace in Sparks NV (East Reno) and not being used since my bike was destroyed. Yours to have if you will come pick it up.
If he doesn't take it, I would be interested (would pay shipping, etc).
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@Richard230
I have a QuiQ for Zero 2013+ that is collecting dust at the local makerspace in Sparks NV (East Reno) and not being used since my bike was destroyed. Yours to have if you will come pick it up.
Thanks for the offer, Shadow. That is very kind of you. But I have decided to buy my daughter a new stock charger as she understands how it works and is comfortable with Zero's charging system.
It sounds like Pacificcricket is up for it, though. Besides, I really want to see if it is her charger or her batteries that are defective. If a new charger will recharge the bike to 100% and then shut off like when it was new, that will prove to me that the batteries are OK and the bike is likely to keep running for years to come.
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@Richard230
I have a QuiQ for Zero 2013+ that is collecting dust at the local makerspace in Sparks NV (East Reno) and not being used since my bike was destroyed. Yours to have if you will come pick it up.
Thanks for the offer, Shadow. That is very kind of you. But I have decided to buy my daughter a new stock charger as she understands how it works and is comfortable with Zero's charging system.
It sounds like Pacificcricket is up for it, though. Besides, I really want to see if it is her charger or her batteries that are defective. If a new charger will recharge the bike to 100% and then shut off like when it was new, that will prove to me that the batteries are OK and the bike is likely to keep running for years to come.
Copy.
If he doesn't take it, I would be interested (would pay shipping, etc).
Ok. Prior to the loss of bike I was going to continue documenting the DIY instructions for HK-H 1800W charger (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.0) and the QuiQ had served as a complement / backup unit. Happy to pass the connector parts and QuiQ, other Zero 2013+ parts, along to anyone interested in that.
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Ok. Prior to the loss of bike I was going to continue documenting the DIY instructions for HK-H 1800W charger (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.0) and the QuiQ had served as a complement / backup unit. Happy to pass the connector parts and QuiQ, other Zero 2013+ parts, along to anyone interested in that.
Sent you a private message...