ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: vinceherman on March 06, 2019, 10:08:54 PM
-
I have an SR/F premium ordered, so up to 6kW
I will use the wall outlet at work and at home. But I want to start ramping up on what will be needed to put in a charging station at home.
I have a 30 amp dryer outlet on the wall of my laundry room that shares a wall with the garage. I want to look at re-purposing this for a charge station.
Many charging stations want a 40A circuit. Are there options for 30A breakers?
-
You want to use 80% of max rated amperage for charging. For that, I'd look at a 24A EVSE. For example, this Clipper Creek would fit the bill
https://store.clippercreek.com/hcs-40-hcs-40p-ev-charging-station
-
You DON'T NEED a charging station! Just a simple 10-30 or 14-30 outlet will work fine. I wish people would quit wasting their money on those things.
-
You could use the included Turbocord Dual, but it is limited to 16A at 240V or 3.8kW. With the EVSE on that circuit, you'd get 5.76kW, and a 40A you could do 9.6kW.
So not sure why he wouldn't want an EVSE for premium, considering the 1.96kW difference in charging rate
-
You ordered a SR/F ($) and want a charge station ($) yet you are worrying about repurposing a dryer outlet on a line that doesn't support the power you want. Hmm...
The obvious solution here is to contact a electrician and get them to run whatever you need from your service box to the garage. You can do 50 amps no problem and it's not expensive. This is a really simple job, easy to do without permit.
-
You DON'T NEED a charging station! Just a simple 10-30 or 14-30 outlet will work fine. I wish people would quit wasting their money on those things.
Considering how many fires that have resulted from overextending the "normal" outlets.. This is a BOLD statement.. Just because it works for you it's NOT designed for the long period of constant draw and definately NOT a recommended statement to give.
Sincerely an electrician.
-
.. This is a BOLD statement.. Just because it works for you it's NOT designed for the long period of constant draw and definately NOT a recommended statement to give.
Sincerely an electrician.
It's not "bold" at all. If there's a 30-amp dryer outlet located on the other wall, it's virtually guaranteed to have wiring capable of a minimum of 30 amps to supply it. Otherwise, why would you install a 30-amp outlet?
And in any event, by the National Electrical Code (which you should know by heart), the fuse/breaker MUST be capable of protecting the wiring. The worst possible thing that could happen is you'll blow a fuse or trip a breaker. Now, if your wiring is old and decrepit, or just defective, that's another story, but then you have problems beyond just "where am I going to recharge my electric motorcycle?".
But I wasn't talking about the wiring. I'm assuming there IS 30-amp wiring supporting that dryer outlet...or if there's not, you'll have the electrician install a new run, properly rated. I'm just saying that the "charge station" boxes really accomplish very little. There's nothing special about the 220VAC supplied to recharge an EV, and a simple $20 outlet will work just as well as one of those many-hundred-dollar things. Some public charging stations require some sort of handshaking or signalling in the name of safety, but AFAIK none of the EVs do. As far as I'm concerned, those boxes are really just a long cable and an adapter to a J1772 plug.
Edit: If, when it becomes available, you opt for the extra 6kW "charge tank" charger, 30A won't be adequate to supply all 12kW worth of charging capability you'll have. At that point, you will definitely need to have an electrician install a 50A cable run. But even then, an outlet is all you need.
-
The J1772 connector is designed for many more insertion/removal actions than the plugs you describe, also there would be less risk of arcing because the contacts are recessed and the J1772 protocol forces a delay in establishing contact on the circuit.
I agree that the world would be a better place if an L6-30R or L14-30R was available everywhere I'd ever want to park, but I don't think they were made to be durable enough for plug/unplug actions many times per day without arcing.
Also, the J1772 connector has built-in provision for locking, it's possible to loop a luggage lock through the button to prevent its removal by unauthorized parties.
-
Doug, continuous loads are supposed to limit themselves to 80% of rated. So you should draw no more than 24 continuous amps from your 30A circuit.
And a constant-power charger will draw more amps when voltage drops (like in brownout conditions).
Anyway, I'd say that a NEMA 14-50 will be fine for 6kw, indeed even as high as 7600w assuming voltage never below 190v (0.8*50*190=7600) and an EVSE is not required, but counting on 30A circuits to supply that is silly (0.8*30*190=4560) though it may have worked for you so far.
-
You ordered a SR/F ($) and want a charge station ($) yet you are worrying about repurposing a dryer outlet on a line that doesn't support the power you want. Hmm...
You make a good point. But I think that it does support the power I want. The premium has 6kW of charger. The math that others have been using says that a L2 pulling 24A on 240V will provide 5.76kW.
That is a lot better than the 1.4kW charging that I will have using the standard wall outlet.
My hope is that it will be fast enough charging to leave the bike at 60(ish)% overnight, and pop it on to charge before I jump in the shower in the morning.
-
Doug, continuous loads are supposed to limit themselves to 80% of rated. So you should draw no more than 24 continuous amps from your 30A circuit.
Who says we're "supposed to"? It may be recommended design practice in some disciplines, but I'm pretty sure a "30A" breaker or outlet is rated for continuous use -- if they weren't, they'd be called 24A outlets. I'm not aware of any derating requirements in the NEC or anywhere else.
And a constant-power charger will draw more amps when voltage drops (like in brownout conditions).
Yes, but the opposite argument is that a "6kW" charger doesn't actually supply 6kW for very long, anyhow. Further, that's why everything has +- tolerances, to allow for local and temporary variances/overloads. Even if you do have a brownout, and your charger doesn't behave well (by dropping the charge current or dropping out altogether), everything can withstand the load. If there's ever a danger of anything overheating dangerously, the fuse or the breaker will protect the wiring, the outlet and the equipment. That's what fuses and breakers are FOR.
[/quote]
Anyway, I'd say that a NEMA 14-50 will be fine for 6kw, indeed even as high as 7600w assuming voltage never below 190v (0.8*50*190=7600) and an EVSE is not required, but counting on 30A circuits to supply that is silly (0.8*30*190=4560) though it may have worked for you so far.
[/quote]
Agreed...and anyhow, I wasn't talking about capacities or wiring. I'm just saying a "charge station" is no better than an outlet. DynoMutt may have a couple of minor points with durability and lockability (though I'd argue with him about the J1772 having recessed leads that are safer -- if a 14-30 plug/outlet was "unsafe", it would be pulled from the market), but for occasional home use, I just can't justify the extra expense.
-
> > Doug, continuous loads are supposed to limit themselves to 80% of rated. So you should draw no more than 24 continuous amps from your 30A circuit.
> Who says we're "supposed to"? It may be recommended design practice in some disciplines, but I'm pretty sure a "30A" breaker or outlet is rated for continuous use -- if they weren't, they'd be called 24A outlets. I'm not aware of any derating requirements in the NEC or anywhere else.
https://blog.schneider-electric.com/datacenter/power-and-cooling/2014/06/12/clearing-confusion-80-vs-100-rated-circuit-breakers/
> > And a constant-power charger will draw more amps when voltage drops (like in brownout conditions).
> Yes, but the opposite argument is that a "6kW" charger doesn't actually supply 6kW for very long, anyhow.
Really? My diginows provide pretty constant current unless they measure too much heat. Each one gives me almost 3.5kw if I give it 240VAC all the way up to 116.5v on the battery.
> Further, that's why everything has +- tolerances, to allow for local and temporary variances/overloads. Even if you do have a brownout, and your charger doesn't behave well (by dropping the charge current or dropping out altogether), everything can withstand the load. If there's ever a danger of anything overheating dangerously, the fuse or the breaker will protect the wiring, the outlet and the equipment. That's what fuses and breakers are FOR.
Circuit breakers trip at higher than design load. Doesn't mean it's fine to run hard till the breaker trips.
> ... and anyhow, I wasn't talking about capacities or wiring. I'm just saying a "charge station" is no better than an outlet. DynoMutt may have a couple of minor points with durability and lockability (though I'd argue with him about the J1772 having recessed leads that are safer -- if a 14-30 plug/outlet was "unsafe", it would be pulled from the market), but for occasional home use, I just can't justify the extra expense.
Well, if you pull a NEMA plug from the wall 1/4" inch, there'll be powered contacts that small fingers could touch, and even at 1/8" a metal utensil in curious hands could touch, so, yeah, J1772 is safer. But enough safer to justify the higher cost? Well, depends on your situation. A lockable cover is cheaper.
-
I went and looked at our electric clothes dryer, 28 amps says 3 or four wire.
-
https://blog.schneider-electric.com/datacenter/power-and-cooling/2014/06/12/clearing-confusion-80-vs-100-rated-circuit-breakers/
The thing I'm reading here is that "a circuit breaker for a branch circuit must be rated such that it can handle the noncontinuous load plus 125% of the continuous load." At the bare minimum, then, 125% of a continuous 30A load is 37.5 amps. So for a "30A" circuit, a 37.5A circcuit breaker is required, or better. This clause requires a HIGHER rated circuit breaker than nominal, not lower. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Really? My diginows provide pretty constant current unless they measure too much heat. Each one gives me almost 3.5kw if I give it 240VAC all the way up to 116.5v on the battery.
Mine doesn't. I've never exceeded 6kW on my 2.0 Diginow, nominal 6.6kW, under any conditions. And when the line voltage drops, the charge current drops, just as it should so as not to abuse the line breaker. It seems really well behaved to me.
Circuit breakers trip at higher than design load. Doesn't mean it's fine to run hard till the breaker trips.
Well, what does it mean, then? The breaker is designed to, and MUST, protect everything else. If it's "not okay" to run until the breaker trips, what's it there for?
> ... and anyhow, I wasn't talking about capacities or wiring. I'm just saying a "charge station" is no better than an outlet. DynoMutt may have a couple of minor points with durability and lockability (though I'd argue with him about the J1772 having recessed leads that are safer -- if a 14-30 plug/outlet was "unsafe", it would be pulled from the market), but for occasional home use, I just can't justify the extra expense.
Well, if you pull a NEMA plug from the wall 1/4" inch, there'll be powered contacts that small fingers could touch, and even at 1/8" a metal utensil in curious hands could touch, so, yeah, J1772 is safer. But enough safer to justify the higher cost? Well, depends on your situation. A lockable cover is cheaper.
Fine. Then petition the NEC people to get the 14-30 plug/outlet, along with just about every approved plug/outlet combo, pulled from the market. In reality, they're not "unsafe" just because you say they're unsafe.
-
I need Level 2 charging in my garage, but want to leave my NEMA 10-30P dryer out of this. From what I've researched, it would be best to have an electrician install a NEMA 14-50R in my garage with 100% rated breakers and wiring. 14-50 seems to be the most widely supported, so I'll be able to buy and install whatever charger is needed now or in the future.
My house has 200A service, hopefully enough for oven, dryer, A/C and level 2 station.
Suitable charging stations seem to be 16A, 20A, 24A, 32A, or 40A. Anything larger would need to be hardwired: 12kW is 50A, or maybe nominally 48A. That seems quite a lot of power for residential, and frankly do I really need to supercharge a bike while parked at home?
I admit my real need is not for the SR/F (yet) but for the 60 kWh Chevy Bolt that I acquired on Sunday. It became immediately obvious that Level 1 charging is not going to work (8A @ 925W = pathetic 4 mi/h, or 12A @ 1.4kW = 6 mi/h). On Level 2 it can take up to 32A (7.7kW = 20 mi/h).
Possibility 1 is this $189 charger at 16A (3.8kW = suitable for SR/F standard model only, charge Bolt in ~20 hours)
https://www.steam-brite.com/electric-vehicle-charger-evse-220240v-level-nema-1450p-plug-j1772-charging-station-duosida-20180802-free-shipping-p-93986.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA_P3jBRAqEiwAZyWWaB9gfn0KatP4ukfbgEGFKlU3-5gbmEwtPGmW_KjRsu2O-s7eL7sZvxoCYdsQAvD_BwE (https://www.steam-brite.com/electric-vehicle-charger-evse-220240v-level-nema-1450p-plug-j1772-charging-station-duosida-20180802-free-shipping-p-93986.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA_P3jBRAqEiwAZyWWaB9gfn0KatP4ukfbgEGFKlU3-5gbmEwtPGmW_KjRsu2O-s7eL7sZvxoCYdsQAvD_BwE)
Possibility 2 is this $589 charger at 32A (7.7kW = suitable for SR/F premium model, charge Bolt in ~10 hours) from Clipper Creek
https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-20-to-32?product_id=67 (https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-20-to-32?product_id=67)
Possibility 3 is this $659 charger at 40A, which being overrated would give me more confidence in its lifespan.
https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-40-to-80/HCS-50P-Plug-in-40%20Amp-EVSE-Charging-Station-25-ft-over-molded-cable-NEMA-14-50 (https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-40-to-80/HCS-50P-Plug-in-40%20Amp-EVSE-Charging-Station-25-ft-over-molded-cable-NEMA-14-50)
-
go with option 3 with a proper and safe 14-50 outlet, only $70 more, bit more future proof, for if you ever get the charge tank on the zero or a different EV car in the future. As you know, once you try EV, you have a hard time going back....a bit addicting.
-
This is what is in the laundry room. If I flip it so it is on the garage side of the wall, I can run with it. Right? Assuming I choose a unit that limits the current to 24A.
That way I won't need a new box in the basement to support new circuits.
(https://i.ibb.co/z4pf9kH/NEMA10-30-R.jpg)
-
Yes, that's NEMA 10-30R, the same that I'm charging from.
Check the upstream breaker for its rating, and do not take it for granted that even 24A will work. Start with 15A and then try 20A and then 24A. Electrical systems are sometimes underrated in arbitrary ways, and you'll want to make sure your cable or the terminal connections don't warm up while unattended.
-
What does the cord that comes with the SR/F look like? Is it plugging into that pictures outlet or a standard wall outlet?
-
That is a lot better than the 1.4kW charging that I will have using the standard wall outlet.
My hope is that it will be fast enough charging to leave the bike at 60(ish)% overnight, and pop it on to charge before I jump in the shower in the morning.
My SR + Powertank goes from about 25% or less to 100 on the standard 1300 watt zero charger.
You don't need fast charging of any kind for overnight charges.
This will work with your existing dryer plug, https://www.amazon.com/Zencar-Portable-Electric-Charging-Compatible/dp/B0758TLC8H/ref=sr_1_3?crid=CY5UIIZRFFCP&keywords=ev+charger+nema+10-30&qid=1552029089&s=gateway&sprefix=ev+charger+nema+%2Caps%2C195&sr=8-3
-
Crap... so much for my 14-50R plans... my breaker panel is full.
Photovoltaic system used last slots. $$$ :'(
-
Hmm... this is an intriguing solution for us dryer-outlet people.
https://www.bsaelectronics.com/products/dryer-buddy-4-30a-240v-splitter-5ft-cable-nema-10-30-plug-one-10-30-outlet-one-14-50-outlet?variant=5807019713
They have a splitter version, a dryer/EVSE manual switch version, and a dryer/EVSE automatic switch version.
-
Speaking from experience (I'm on my fourth electric vehicle) I recommend getting an evse like the juice box or Tesla Wall connector, capable of high amperage but user adjustable to grow with your electric load requirements, sure 16a may do for now but if you up your service in the garage your buying yet another evse
-
Crap... so much for my 14-50R plans... my breaker panel is full.
Photovoltaic system used last slots. $$$ :'(
have an pro electrician take a look. Sometimes they can do half-height 15A breakers, and free up some slots.
-
On the door, there may/should be a breaker panel diagram sheet.
That has images which will tell if half-height 15a breakers can be used, but if possible, they're usually the bottom switches in the panel.
I am not an electrician, but I believe in balance. That is the basis of my suggestion below:
I'd guess the way to go would be to take the two dishwasher 15s and combine them into two half-height 15s to free up that bottom right breaker, you now have a void large enough for a 240v breaker, perhaps move the oven/range breaker over to that slot, and then put a 60a breaker in on the left side where the oven/range breaker was. I see that you have a 200a service breaker, so you should be reasonably safe.
Ask an electrician, and also ask them if there are any known issues with the make of your panel and breakers, some vendors have had fire safety issues in the past and been sued out of business. (tin-foil hat speaking)
-
Thank you guys, I'll look into the half height breakers and see what I can do.
By the way, Costco has the Juice Box for $500, with Wi-Fi connectivity and all. But the cable management seems lacking.
-
I'd guess the way to go would be to take the two dishwasher 15s and combine them into two half-height 15s to free up that bottom right breaker, you now have a void large enough for a 240v breaker, perhaps move the oven/range breaker over to that slot, and then put a 60a breaker in on the left side where the oven/range breaker was. I see that you have a 200a service breaker, so you should be reasonably safe.
I have spent hours researching various hacks and commercial products.
Muahaha... Eureka!
The two Type MP-T 15A Single Pole breakers providing 240V to the dishwasher can be replaced with the Type MH-T "triplex" breaker pictured below, $25 from Home Depot. It still takes two slots, but provides 2 x 15A + 1 x 50A breaker. Then a dedicated 50A line and conduit can be run for vehicle charging.
-
The Green Transportation blog/site is handy for topics like these.
Here's their article about home charging capacity/equipment:
https://greentransportation.info/ev-charging/range-confidence/chap6-home-charging/index.html
-
The Green Transportation blog/site is handy for topics like these.
Thanks Brian, good article.
I learned enough to install the triplex breaker, lower right, conservatively using heavy 6 AWG which now needs to be routed ~18ft along the garage ceiling and down a wall to an outlet box right near where the JuiceBox Pro 40 will be mounted. The JuiceBox has a NEMA 14-50 plug on one end and a J1772 gun on the other, and is portable so it can be carried to RV parks, etc.
SR/F
Prem+CT | SR/F
Std+CT | Chevy
Bolt | SR/F
Prem | SR/F
Std | |
| 40 | 37 | 32 | 25 | 12 | A |
| 9.6 | 9.0 | 7.8 | 6.0 | 3.0 | kW |
| 14.4 | 14.4 | 60 | 14.4 | 14.4 | kWh |
| 1.7 | 1.8 | 9.5 | 2.5 | 4.5 | h |
-
+ for the Juice Box 40 pro. I bought one for my sisters house and had an electrician install a 50amp 14-50 for it. It's overkill for her Volt but she is somewhat future proof now and it works great for my Model 3 when I visit.
-
+ for the Juice Box 40 pro. I bought one for my sisters house and had an electrician install a 50amp 14-50 for it. It's overkill for her Volt but she is somewhat future proof now and it works great for my Model 3 when I visit.
++ Just installed a Juice Box Pro for my Honda Clarity. Ran my own 14-50 using 6 Gauge wire (50' from my box). Works great. Charged the 17KWH battery in just over 2 hours on my first charge (a little over 7KW on the Juice Box App). Still just the basic charger on my Zero...
Steve
-
we have a Juicebox Pro 40 at the shop too....good unit. Found it on super sale on Amazon one day.
-
A Friend here in Vegas builds something that is designed exactly for such situations.
People rent more than own these days and don't wish to spend tons of money for something
that they may leave behind. He has various options from just a 240V Splitter, to an intelligent
load switcher. He can also build / Sell you an EVSE to your specifications.
His name is Brad
Not sure if it will get you a discount but tell him that Krazy Ed told you about him
https://www.bsaelectronics.com/collections/dryer-buddys
-
A Friend here in Vegas builds something that is designed exactly for such situations.
People rent more than own these days and don't wish to spend tons of money for something
that they may leave behind. He has various options from just a 240V Splitter, to an intelligent
load switcher. He can also build / Sell you an EVSE to your specifications.
His name is Brad
Not sure if it will get you a discount but tell him that Krazy Ed told you about him
https://www.bsaelectronics.com/collections/dryer-buddys
Dryer Buddy came up earlier in this thread. Brad has some really cool stuff. I hadn't thought of the renter angle. Dryer Buddy is a great choice for them. Charging would be limited to 24A (5.7 kW), but that is a good match for SR/F Premium.
-
Brad can make them to any voltage the buyer wishes.
I tends to stay at the 80% range for reliability / liability issues.
True if 30 amp, but if 40 or 50, then delivery can be higher.
He can put whatever end the buyer wishes
-
Brad can make them to any voltage the buyer wishes.
I tends to stay at the 80% range for reliability / liability issues.
True if 30 amp, but if 40 or 50, then delivery can be higher.
He can put whatever end the buyer wishes
Yeah, I tried to think of a scenario in which that would make sense, but came up empty. Dryer outlets are 30 amp breaker and wiring, and in many cases like mine, over 60 years old.
Different wire gauge and outlets are required for 50 amp, in which case one might as well run a dedicated circuit.
Actually what Brad should make is a 50 amp switch that charges one vehicle until it is done drawing current and then charges another. Or maybe better, alternate between two NEMA 14-50 outlets hourly. Pretty big market for that.