ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: stunthamster on March 14, 2016, 10:07:05 PM
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Sadly, looks like I'm about to chew through my third charger for my 2015 SR. Same symptoms as before - not charging, and after about ten/fifteen minutes, it pops the RCD on the circuit it's on in the house. This would be the second of the 'new' generation chargers, so I'm more than than a little worried.
I'm seriously starting to think that the charger is a symptom rather than the cause. Mailed the logs off to Zero to see what they advise, but I'm expecting yet another week without my bike. At this point I'm seriously thinking I should insist on a new bike, there seems to be something systematically wrong with this one. What do you guys think?
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Seems to be the only chargers on the bikes that are dependable are the meanwell s or the delta Qs
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Do you think it would be worth your time to try charging on another circuit or at another location?
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Do you think it would be worth your time to try charging on another circuit or at another location?
I've tried both with the same result. I took a 'once bitten, twice shy' approach and used a different circuit when the bike was returned. That being said, both the original circuit and this one have electronics such as computers etc that I'd expect to have fried long before my bike if it was an electrical fault. I'm at a bit of a loss as to why the same bike would have so many faults. Could a faulty controller cause charger issues?
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Bad luck again stunthamster. I wouldn't underestimate the weakness of one component though. My feeling is that the design of the chargers is fundamentally flawed and that the revisions are merely sticking plasters.
I doubt the other electronics involved in charging the battery have changed since the 2013 models. The Green Watt Power chargers are the significant change, I think.
I don't see how a circuit used for other everyday electronics should suddenly cause trouble for a charger. Someone took some shortcuts somewhere and it's causing problems for us all. That's my angle.
I'd like to see Zero use this as an opportunity to develop a new on-board charger with a 3kW capacity, preferably from a more reputable manufacturer.
My replacement charger hasn't failed yet, but I don't hold out much hope.
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Have you tried charging with a charge cord that has the ground pin removed? I'd be willing to bet that will fix your problem. A new charger isn't going to fix it, because they are still working at Calex to fix the residual current leak to the green ground wire, so I am pretty certain any "new" charger you get for at least 6 months and probably a lot longer isn't going to solve this part of the problem. If it's tripping a hard 15 amp circuit breaker that has nothing else on the circuit then there is a different problem. I'm just talking about GFCI's or RCD's.
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Have you tried charging with a charge cord that has the ground pin removed? I'd be willing to bet that will fix your problem. A new charger isn't going to fix it, because they are still working at Calex to fix the residual current leak to the green ground wire, so I am pretty certain any "new" charger you get for at least 6 months and probably a lot longer isn't going to solve this part of the problem. If it's tripping a hard 15 amp circuit breaker that has nothing else on the circuit then there is a different problem. I'm just talking about GFCI's or RCD's.
OK so Terry you are saying the famous 2015 charger problem might be related to a current leak to the ground?
we experienced that with our 2015 S powertrain kit form a complete motorcycle. charger wont work the green light flash for about 15 sec but no current is draw by the charger.. then it flash rapidly red .. but no breaker pop.. only flashing led on the display and no cahrge..
Doc
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Stunt, if you try Terry's suggestion (which I would), just disconnect the earth wire from the ground pin inside the plug. You need the pin to open up the gates for the live and neutral holes. I'm sure you've already worked that out, but just in case! Do let us know if it helps. We could feed this back to Zero via Streetbike if so. You'll still need a new charger, but it'll give them more clues, if they don't already know of course...
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OK so Terry you are saying the famous 2015 charger problem might be related to a current leak to the ground?
we experienced that with our 2015 S powertrain kit form a complete motorcycle. charger wont work the green light flash for about 15 sec but no current is draw by the charger.. then it flash rapidly red .. but no breaker pop.. only flashing led on the display and no cahrge..
Doc
Doc, a fast flashing usually means there is an above average battery isolation measurement. That issue might be fixed by a new charger I'm not sure.
Very simply all I'm stating is that if you are having trouble charging on a sensitive Ground Fault Circuit, it's because of the ground wire itself and you can solve that. This includes all ChargePoint charging stations which have a very sensitive level 1 GFI setting.
Also keep in mind many charger brands have this issue. This is nothing special to Calex. I have been carrying at least one charge cord without the ground pin since 2012. The delta Q chargers also disagreed with the level 1 ChargePoint stations most of the time. It would have a "Ground Fault" failure and blink red and cut off charging for 15 minutes and then try again only to fail again. I had 4 different Delta Q's when I was in Florida and tried them all separately and they all did this at about 90% of all ChargePoint stations if I used a new charge cord with the ground pin.
When I got to California the place I was staying had a GFI outlet and both the Delta Q's and Calex chargers disagreed with the GFI. Strangely the Elcons and Meanwells make friends with the GFI. Jeremiah Johnson with his 2013 Zero race bike (meanwells) would come to visit often and could plug into the same outlet and charge just fine. Not sure why. All I know is if you need to charge, there is something you can do about it for now.
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Have you tried charging with a charge cord that has the ground pin removed? I'd be willing to bet that will fix your problem. A new charger isn't going to fix it, because they are still working at Calex to fix the residual current leak to the green ground wire, so I am pretty certain any "new" charger you get for at least 6 months and probably a lot longer isn't going to solve this part of the problem. If it's tripping a hard 15 amp circuit breaker that has nothing else on the circuit then there is a different problem. I'm just talking about GFCI's or RCD's.
Hi Electric Terry - interesting idea, I'll give it a go tomorrow and let you guys know how I get on.
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I did break off the ground pin on my cheap extension cord that I carry with me on the bike occasionally. Without it, my Vectrix charges fine at the same picky CFGI outlet that refused to charge it before (with ground pin it charges fine on all CFGIs at home, just this one at work is trouble). Also my first charger was fine even at the flaky CFGI at work, but my second charger apparently irritates it more than the first one and it trips. Pulling off the ground pin with pliers was easy on the cheap cord (might be a bit more work on a quality cord).
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That seems to have done the trick. I've unconnected the Earth pin, and I have a happily charging Zero. Interestingly, when it started to charge, it flashed the warning triangle a few times, but now seems to be happily charging. Fingers crossed, fault fixed. I guess the question is, does this invalidate warranties etc?
Cheers for the advice Electric Terry, much appreciated.
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That seems to have done the trick. I've unconnected the Earth pin, and I have a happily charging Zero. Interestingly, when it started to charge, it flashed the warning triangle a few times, but now seems to be happily charging. Fingers crossed, fault fixed. I guess the question is, does this invalidate warranties etc?
Cheers for the advice Electric Terry, much appreciated.
You're quite welcome. I have a few miles under my belt and hence a few tricks up my sleeve. Glad I could help.
But as you see above Kocho figured this out with his Vectrix also. It's not a Zero specific problem, many many charger brands dislike GFI's. This is why I say instead of going through the hassle to get the bike to the dealer and replace the charger, simply try pulling out the ground pin first and try that. Because that will probably fix the problem easily. where a new charger probably isn't going to do it until they for sure solve the design problem which I don't believe they have done yet.
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Instead of removing the earth pin I would recommend using a cheater plug:
(http://i.imgur.com/j4SDcil.jpg)
That way you can use the unmodified cable at normal grounded outlets.
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Yes good call Erasmo. I've always needed to charge right away and never had one with me at the time so had to resort to just breaking the pin. And I have so many cords now without the pin I haven't needed to get a cheater. But that is definitely the better option! Just make sure to always carry it with you somewhere on the bike that you won't lose it. For those with a powertank and that don't have luggage racks, finding a place to keep it is the hardest part I see. Perhaps in a jacket pocket or something.
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GFI's are a nightmare and not as safe as you would think.
The only outlet in my house I have had issue with when charging my bike was a GFI. But it didn't simply fault out ... no that would be too kind ... it welded itself shut and burned out 0__0
When I removed it the whole back of the outlet was welded to the wire and melted. Good times. I reverted to using a two heavy gauge 15' extension cords ran into the house (since all outlets in a garage are GFI by law here) and used a non GFI outlet in the house instead.
I now just use my 240v 50 amp 14-50 outlet to charge instead. It works with stock chargers, my RSP2000 stack, and in the future the diginow charger :D
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"When I removed it the whole back of the outlet was welded to the wire and melted."
It sounds like the problem was a common one with all outlets - the wire ends were pushed into the holes in the back of the outlet instead of being screwed on, and the clamp springs or jaws failed. Newer designs let you push the wires into similar holes, but the side screws also tighten and hold the clamp jaws.
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Yes good call Erasmo. I've always needed to charge right away and never had one with me at the time so had to resort to just breaking the pin. And I have so many cords now without the pin I haven't needed to get a cheater. But that is definitely the better option! Just make sure to always carry it with you somewhere on the bike that you won't lose it. For those with a powertank and that don't have luggage racks, finding a place to keep it is the hardest part I see. Perhaps in a jacket pocket or something.
If only the seat was quick removable like a regular bike, the little recession on the rear side would be perfect for bits and bobs like that.
GFI's are a nightmare and not as safe as you would think.
The only outlet in my house I have had issue with when charging my bike was a GFI. But it didn't simply fault out ... no that would be too kind ... it welded itself shut and burned out 0__0
When I removed it the whole back of the outlet was welded to the wire and melted. Good times. I reverted to using a two heavy gauge 15' extension cords ran into the house (since all outlets in a garage are GFI by law here) and used a non GFI outlet in the house instead.
I now just use my 240v 50 amp 14-50 outlet to charge instead. It works with stock chargers, my RSP2000 stack, and in the future the diginow charger :D
Are you sure your circuit breaker isn't faulty or something else isn't up to code?
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Are you sure your circuit breaker isn't faulty or something else isn't up to code?
Yup the same outlet previously tripped with another device plugged up to it ;)
Sometimes you just get a bad GFI :/
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Another reason for false trips can be multiple outlets controlled by one GFCI, as in several regular outlets 'downstream' of a GFCI outlet on the same circuit. This is an inexpensive way of providing GFCI coverage, but the more outlets on that circuit, then the more false trips are likely.
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another messed up reason for GFCI faults is you have a older house that LOOKS like it has upgraded wiring.. but when you pull out the outlet, you find out it is very old 2 wire throughout the walls, and none of the grounds are connected to anything.
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another messed up reason for GFCI faults is you have a older house that LOOKS like it has upgraded wiring.. but when you pull out the outlet, you find out it is very old 2 wire throughout the walls, and none of the grounds are connected to anything.
Yes, that sucks. You can still use GFCI outlets with ungrounded circuits, oddly enough, but it's better to have grounds!
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Well, looks like I was quick off the mark. Turns out it's now tripping the fuse on any given circuit I happen to plug it into, even at 100% charge, so looks like there is still a fault.
Contacted Streetbike, who in turn talked to Zero. Back to the workshop for the bike, but interestingly, Zero are saying that it might be a problem with 'peak load' within my house. Not convinced, but willing to work with the to sort out the problem.
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Oh man, I was hoping you had it solved. Can you try a known 20 amp breaker outlet somewhere that has nothing else plugged into it just to try? Do they have RV parks there? Where you can test at an outlet that is 2 inches from the breaker it is served by?
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Charger in my (new old stock) 2014 SR failed after maybe a dozen partial charge cycles.
New charger on the way.. hope it proves more durable!
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Oh man, I was hoping you had it solved. Can you try a known 20 amp breaker outlet somewhere that has nothing else plugged into it just to try? Do they have RV parks there? Where you can test at an outlet that is 2 inches from the breaker it is served by?
Nope, sadly not. I've basically bounced it around every circuit I have in the house, with the same result. The charger appears to now be completely dead, and isn't even getting power to the dash - looks like it's over to Zero for investigation. I'll let you folks know how it goes in case there is something of value to the wider community, but hopefully it's just a case of a fault localised to my bike.
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I've a fairly hefty dedicated line for my zero, which has a very short run to my consumer unit. Given I also have a 2015 SR, either I'm lucky, or you *may* either have a problem with your bike, or possibly a problem with your consumer unit / house wiring(poor earth perhaps?)
But its not like the 1.3kw draw is that big a deal, so its hard to see it being your house's electrical supply.
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If only the seat was quick removable like a regular bike, the little recession on the rear side would be perfect for bits and bobs like that.
You know, there is this 2" diameter hole that goes right through my bike. If only someone manufactured a tube with threaded ends and a handle integrated into the cap that was just right size.