ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: evmachina on June 05, 2020, 03:11:02 AM
-
I'm curious if anyone has purchased one of these? I'm looking to get one for a 16' FX 6.5. I've been emailing with Elcon about programming and at this point they just need to get a cell count of the packs to program it. I'm wondering if anyone has run into this or has this info? Thanks
-
The batteries are 28 in series: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Battery/Cell_Arrangement
Voltage runs from ~95V to 116.2V: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Battery_Voltage
There's an article on Hollywood Electrics' former product that customized the Elcon PFC 2500 for the Zero platform: https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Hollywood_Electrics/Elcon_2500
In general, the unofficial manual catalogs all of this kind of information: https://zeromanual.com/
-
One feature that the Hollywood Electrics charger had that the Elcon charger won't have is support for the enable line on the Accessory Charging Port. This signals charger presence to the bike so that it remains charging after you key the bike off and walk away.
If you want the bike to stay in charge mode, arrange to engage both the onboard charger and the Elcon 2500 from the same power. The onboard charger keeps the bike in charge mode. A cable splitter should be enough to do this; just make sure the cable is rated for the ~13A that the Elcon 2500 pulls.
-
Awesome. Thanks so much
-
Out of curiosity, why order the PFC 2500 when the HK-J 3300 is available (specifically the HK-J-H132-32 model)? https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm
-
With all these chargers available I wish someone would just buy some and then resell them programmed and wired up with the required connectors. Any idea why HE stopped selling them?
-
With all these chargers available I wish someone would just buy some and then resell them programmed and wired up with the required connectors. Any idea why HE stopped selling them?
There is definitely room for a low-overhead charging aftermarket business. EVTricity had good documentation around equipment that I didn't feel was suitable for motorcycling, and the TC units are generically available from ElCon at reasonable prices. It does require professional skills in power cable crimping, layout, and management, but mostly requires a steady hand and a traditional balance sheet.
Lennart Otten in Europe is arranging for a charge controller, harness, and TC chargers to support the market, but did not want to deal with US customs when I asked to buy them.
Regarding Hollywood Electrics, I don't feel it's my business to say, but let's say it's related to who I'm avoiding talking about.
-
I don't know enough about the industry to know who that is, but I understand why you don't want to throw names about so won't ask.
How did you contact Lennart, is he on here? I'm in Europe (for the time being, in the UK).
-
I'm not sure if Lennart is on here, but he is on the FB group.
To answer your question - yes people have tried that specific charger and it works just fine, its just physically bigger and less powerful than what else is out there (the TC charger Brian is referring to). There is a guy who runs a youtube channel called MotoMark who has made a set up using one of those: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVaWvk_MP-U
Lennart is one of the first guys to publish arduino code publicly to interface with the Elcon chargers over canbus, more specifically the more compact and powerful TC-HK-J (sold by Elcon and also EV Components if you want it cheaper and to wait for shipping from China). I have personally taken his code and added my code for a more fancy controller with selectable stop voltages and charge currents, and has worked great for me for the ~10 months I have had it. FWIW combined with the onboard charger on my 7.2FX, it charges from 40% to full in an hour - its a game changer for sure.
The only downside right now (Idk if Lennart has worked on this piece) is there is no bms integration, so its kind of like riding a bike without any gauges. You have to know if your battery is too hot or too cold to charge, and you can cause damage or even a fire if you charge outside of those limits.
-
What Facebook group is this?
Would using it in combination with the onboard charger minimise the risk of damage, or will the external charger just go ahead and continue to charge anyway?
-
I have one of the original Elcoms that Hollywood Electrics sold " back in the day "
This appears to be the same unit that MotoMark uses on his.
It is an external unit, fairly heavy and bulky, but, only use it when on road trips.
It multiplies the stock charger on my 2013 FX by about 400%. Not sure if the newer
Fx has gone to the bigger charger, but, mine is half the power of the S from the same
year. Works perfectly for me. It does ( usually ) stop at 85%. I would contact
Harlan to see if he had done the New Elcon for external.
As far as the suggestion above, if someone DOES order, modify and resell,
keep me in mind, I may be interested in a lighter weight more powerful option.
-
What Facebook group is this?
Would using it in combination with the onboard charger minimise the risk of damage, or will the external charger just go ahead and continue to charge anyway?
The Zero Motorcycles Owners Group, whose members are largely unaware of the EMF: https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/
-
The only downside right now (Idk if Lennart has worked on this piece) is there is no bms integration, so its kind of like riding a bike without any gauges. You have to know if your battery is too hot or too cold to charge, and you can cause damage or even a fire if you charge outside of those limits.
The Zero BMS will disconnect the battery from the Auxiliary charging port any time when is detecting values out of range ( current too high, voltage too high, temperature too low or too high) , so, unless you open the battery pack, and intentionally connect your charger directly to the battery, bypassing the contactor, I don't understand how can someone can cause damage or fire.
Yes BMS integration is good, but not necessary, also remeber that Zero has that unfortunate isolation problem, so the CAN communication between Zero and charger has to be isolated (galvanic isolation), otherwise the motorcycles with the isolation problem will destroy the charger, same way that they destroy the onboard charger.
-
The Zero BMS will disconnect the battery from the Auxiliary charging port any time when is detecting values out of range ( current too high, voltage too high, temperature too low or too high) , so, unless you open the battery pack, and intentionally connect your charger directly to the battery, bypassing the contactor, I don't understand how can someone can cause damage or fire.
Yes BMS integration is good, but not necessary, also remeber that Zero has that unfortunate isolation problem, so the CAN communication between Zero and charger has to be isolated (galvanic isolation), otherwise the motorcycles with the isolation problem will destroy the charger, same way that they destroy the onboard charger.
You're not wrong about the BMS disconnecting the battery, it will, but that built in protection is for when things fail / dont operate correctly and to try and prevent any permanent damage. I also dont remember what values, but I would imagine they are on the extreme ends of what is acceptable. It should never be used as a measure for the battery safety during normal operation. Just one example is the need to reduce charge current >109F to keep from heating the pack more and to prevent excess wear of the battery. Although the contractor will disconnect while there is a load, I would guess that eventually you would cause damage to the contactor or the mating surfaces in the contactor. Really the right way to do it is to understand how the aux port signal pin communicates or use optical isolation / wireless communication with the BMS for charging.
I will say causing a fire is pretty unlikely, and the way to do that would be to charge well above 116.4V, which I think the contactor would disconnect the battery before that. I still wouldnt want to find out.
-
The Zero BMS will disconnect the battery from the Auxiliary charging port any time when is detecting values out of range ( current too high, voltage too high, temperature too low or too high) , so, unless you open the battery pack, and intentionally connect your charger directly to the battery, bypassing the contactor, I don't understand how can someone can cause damage or fire.
Yes BMS integration is good, but not necessary, also remeber that Zero has that unfortunate isolation problem, so the CAN communication between Zero and charger has to be isolated (galvanic isolation), otherwise the motorcycles with the isolation problem will destroy the charger, same way that they destroy the onboard charger.
You're not wrong about the BMS disconnecting the battery, it will, but that built in protection is for when things fail / dont operate correctly and to try and prevent any permanent damage. I also dont remember what values, but I would imagine they are on the extreme ends of what is acceptable. It should never be used as a measure for the battery safety during normal operation. Just one example is the need to reduce charge current >109F to keep from heating the pack more and to prevent excess wear of the battery. Although the contractor will disconnect while there is a load, I would guess that eventually you would cause damage to the contactor or the mating surfaces in the contactor. Really the right way to do it is to understand how the aux port signal pin communicates or use optical isolation / wireless communication with the BMS for charging.
I will say causing a fire is pretty unlikely, and the way to do that would be to charge well above 116.4V, which I think the contactor would disconnect the battery before that. I still wouldnt want to find out.
Unfortunately, this kind of statements are the reason that nobody wants to make charging systems for Zero motorcycles.
I have a homemade charging system for sale posted on the Facebook group ,and when I read the questions/comments/warnings from the people that, probably, don't even know what a BMS is, but they do have opinions, I don't know if I should laugh or cry.
Yes , the charger have to be properly setup with the proper parameters for the Zero battery pack.
I agree, the contactor shouldn't have to disconnect the battery from the charger, but my point is that your statement about mandatory communication between the BMS and charger, and fire hazard was wrong. Don't forget that the OEM Quick Charger sold by Zero has no communication with the BMS, just a charge enable signal.
-
Unfortunately, this kind of statements are the reason that nobody wants to make charging systems for Zero motorcycles.
I have a homemade charging system for sale posted on the Facebook group ,and when I read the questions/comments/warnings from the people that, probably, don't even know what a BMS is, but they do have opinions, I don't know if I should laugh or cry.
Yes , the charger have to be properly setup with the proper parameters for the Zero battery pack.
I agree, the contactor shouldn't have to disconnect the battery from the charger, but my point is that your statement about mandatory communication between the BMS and charger, and fire hazard was wrong. Don't forget that the OEM Quick Charger sold by Zero has no communication with the BMS, just a charge enable signal.
If people are buying a charging system that doesnt have any communication with the BMS, and they dont even know what a BMS is, they shouldnt buy it in the first place. I also never said it was mandatory, but you should be aware of the conditions you are charging in if it doesnt. Case in point - I was charging at .6C yesterday after a hot day of riding and kept an eye on my pack temp - it went to 111F, I manually tapered down the current and the temp dropped. Per Zero's guidelines, charging should be tapered starting at 109f.
Also I'm 90% sure the delta-q charger is in bidirectional communication with the bike but I cant find any writing about it; Its not canbus but the 2 center aux pins provide a signal (I have verified this with an oscilliscope when charging and not charging). For example the procedure to charge with a delta-q charger is to key on to enable the contactor, plug in the delta-q to charge and key off. The contactor will open below 32f as its safe to ride but not charge, and if the delta-q provided a charge anyway, it would immediately start plating the battery. I couldnt find anything in wiriting, but the delta-q has to receive some kind of 'not okay to charge' signal from the bike, Zero would be insane to not do this.
-
Out of curiosity, why order the PFC 2500 when the HK-J 3300 is available (specifically the HK-J-H132-32 model)? https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm
I'm considering this as an option, but I want to be sure I can handle the build myself. If it comes programmed from Elcon, is there really anything more than cabling and mounting I need to be concerned with? Also, if I'm okay waiting for delivery and not having a warranty, are there other reasons to order from Elcon over EVComponents? Thanks in advance.
For reference I have a 2020 FXS 7.2.
-
I have a pair of ElCons that I bought from Hollywood Electrics back in the day. I have them mounted on Givi compatible plates in enclosures, and ran them with the stock charger on my '14SR to achieve 6kW+. Now that I have digi-Now rig installed, I no longer have use for the ElCons, unless I can find the aux port on my '13FX... I'd consider breaking up the set if I get a reasonable offer for one ElCon!
-
I'm considering this as an option, but I want to be sure I can handle the build myself. If it comes programmed from Elcon, is there really anything more than cabling and mounting I need to be concerned with? Also, if I'm okay waiting for delivery and not having a warranty, are there other reasons to order from Elcon over EVComponents? Thanks in advance.
For reference I have a 2020 FXS 7.2.
While I haven't dealt with Elcon, I would assume they would have decent customer support in the US. I did order from EV components - they were significantly cheaper. They definitely wanted to help but the language barrier was very apparent. When I started asking questions about different types of connectors or if I could order additional connectors / pins, I got responses that just didnt make sense. Just ordering the unit was fine, their only option is 2 day shipping from China, but it takes them almost a month to get the unit ready to ship.
Are you just looking to use as an offboard charger in your garage? If so I would just order the unit with the enable pin to start charging. You'll need cabling, connectors and a hydraulic crimper.
If you are looking to do public J1772 charging, it become sort of a mess. You'll need a CANBUS enabled charger and this controller is the easiest way to go: https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/evcc-charge-controller.html. You'll also need a J1772 plug. Its not impossible, but will require much more in depth knowledge of how the all the charging magic works.
-
Here is the location on my 2013 FX