ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: dvdt on March 31, 2018, 06:03:11 AM
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I noticed starting last October (a few weeks after end of 2 years of ownership) that charging my 2014 S with the on-board charger would not always reach 100%. Since October, this incomplete charging has progressively worsened to be every charging session, and decreasing level of maximum charge (as displayed on the instrument panel). With the external Quiq charger (alone or in tandem with the on-board charger), I can reach a display value of 100%, which appears to implicate the on-board charger.
While the decreased level of charge is as yet a nuisance (the on-board charger now only reaches 96%), the trend is not favorable. Has anyone experience to share regarding changes in rate of degradation, or observed the failure to be catastrophic (either in the sense of damaging other components on the motorcycle or step wise with a risk of being left with an unexpected very long walk)? For reference, based on my typical commute trip, I estimate that the on-board charger has seen ~600 cycles of use over ~24.5k miles. If anyone has replaced the on-board charger out of pocket and is willing to share the cost of replacement and duration of the service at a dealer, that would be appreciated.
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I noticed starting last October (a few weeks after end of 2 years of ownership) that charging my 2014 S with the on-board charger would not always reach 100%. Since October, this incomplete charging has progressively worsened to be every charging session, and decreasing level of maximum charge (as displayed on the instrument panel). With the external Quiq charger (alone or in tandem with the on-board charger), I can reach a display value of 100%, which appears to implicate the on-board charger.
While the decreased level of charge is as yet a nuisance (the on-board charger now only reaches 96%), the trend is not favorable. Has anyone experience to share regarding changes in rate of degradation, or observed the failure to be catastrophic (either in the sense of damaging other components on the motorcycle or step wise with a risk of being left with an unexpected very long walk)? For reference, based on my typical commute trip, I estimate that the on-board charger has seen ~600 cycles of use over ~24.5k miles. If anyone has replaced the on-board charger out of pocket and is willing to share the cost of replacement and duration of the service at a dealer, that would be appreciated.
That same thing happened to my 2014 S, starting last summer. Using the on-board charger, it first would stop charging at 98%, which then dropped to 96% and when I gave the bike to my daughter, it would stop charging at 92%, however, if you kept the charger plugged in it would increase about 2% each day, until 98% was reached. But as soon as I started riding, the display would quickly show 96% and then 94%, when it would stabilize and start discharging (according to the display) normally. My daughter pulls the plug when the display shows 92%, upon completion of the balancing program, and she rides it at that level.
There have been no changes within the past 4 months and the display continues to cut off at 92%, however the bike still has very good range and she is not complaining about the indicated 8% drop in apparent battery pack capacity. I have no idea why this is happening, however until last summer I always kept the charger plugged in and the change, probably coincidentally, started dropping once I began following Zero's advice to unplug the charger once recharging was complete.
I might add that my 2014 bike never had its factory firmware updated and I think it still has version 36, if I recall correctly.
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I had similar issues with my 2014 S charger. It did suddenly stop charging to 96%. It started taking 24hrs to charge from 27% to 75%. I attempted to have it repaired but the issue was somewhat intermittent and did not show up when the shop tested it. I recommend that you collect the MBB event logs associated with charging times before you bring it in for repair. Also, make sure that you have ready details of the voltage at the outlet that you use to charge the bike. Once Zero agreed that the charger was bad, I waited until the charger was physically at the shop and it only took them a few hours to replace it. I haven't seen the issue since the charger was replaced several years ago.
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instead of trying to diagnose the charger from a battery percentage, you need to look at the pack voltage.
If the charger is not reaching the full pack voltage, it has an issue.
if it is, but the percentage is wrong, then its just the display.
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instead of trying to diagnose the charger from a battery percentage, you need to look at the pack voltage.
If the charger is not reaching the full pack voltage, it has an issue.
if it is, but the percentage is wrong, then its just the display.
In the case of my daughter's Zero, when the charger stops at 92%, the battery voltage shows 113 Volts on the Zero app. When the bike was new, the charging would stop at 100% and the battery voltage would show 117 volts on the Zero app.
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instead of trying to diagnose the charger from a battery percentage, you need to look at the pack voltage.
If the charger is not reaching the full pack voltage, it has an issue.
if it is, but the percentage is wrong, then its just the display.
In the case of my daughter's Zero, when the charger stops at 92%, the battery voltage shows 113 Volts on the Zero app. When the bike was new, the charging would stop at 100% and the battery voltage would show 117 volts on the Zero app.
Same here. The voltage tracked with the displayed and logged percentage.
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So is mine 2014S. End of charge 95%, 113V, 3mV cell imbalance.
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instead of trying to diagnose the charger from a battery percentage, you need to look at the pack voltage.
If the charger is not reaching the full pack voltage, it has an issue.
if it is, but the percentage is wrong, then its just the display.
In the case of my daughter's Zero, when the charger stops at 92%, the battery voltage shows 113 Volts on the Zero app. When the bike was new, the charging would stop at 100% and the battery voltage would show 117 volts on the Zero app.
If its under warranty... take it to the dealer.
If its not... remove the charger from the bike, jumper it to on, put a low load on it, and check the output voltage. Then either fix or replace it.
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instead of trying to diagnose the charger from a battery percentage, you need to look at the pack voltage.
If the charger is not reaching the full pack voltage, it has an issue.
if it is, but the percentage is wrong, then its just the display.
In the case of my daughter's Zero, when the charger stops at 92%, the battery voltage shows 113 Volts on the Zero app. When the bike was new, the charging would stop at 100% and the battery voltage would show 117 volts on the Zero app.
If its under warranty... take it to the dealer.
If its not... remove the charger from the bike, jumper it to on, put a low load on it, and check the output voltage. Then either fix or replace it.
The 2014 Zero has been out of warranty for some time and that includes the battery pack. It is quite possible that the on-board charger might be having a slow meltdown, but my daughter is happy with the bike's current performance and doesn't want to spend any money on fixing the problem as she needs to not only buy a new home, but also has two daughters who are in college this year. That doesn't leave a lot of loose change for charger replacement. ::) So I will let someone else experiment with this battery pack degrading syndrome.
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The 2014 Zero has been out of warranty for some time and that includes the battery pack. It is quite possible that the on-board charger might be having a slow meltdown, but my daughter is happy with the bike's current performance and doesn't want to spend any money on fixing the problem as she needs to not only buy a new home, but also has two daughters who are in college this year. That doesn't leave a lot of loose change for charger replacement. ::) So I will let someone else experiment with this battery pack degrading syndrome.
Totally understandable.
The upside is its not battery pack degradation.... It actually will last longer since its not fully charged. The range will be less because it started out with less charge, but the battery itself will be better preserved.
When the time comes, its also possible to repair the existing one, or even just adjust it for drift... if thats the case.
Plus you dont have to go to zero for a replacement.
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If its not... remove the charger from the bike, jumper it to on, put a low load on it, and check the output voltage. Then either fix or replace it.
Hello Mister Dude. Do you know if the charger "just charges" when it is connected to mains on one side and on a load or battery on the other side, like any ordinary chargers? Or maybe does it need some CAN bus discussion with a "master" to make sure he has the right to charge, prior to applying energy to its output? In the latter case, the test would be much more complicated.
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If its not... remove the charger from the bike, jumper it to on, put a low load on it, and check the output voltage. Then either fix or replace it.
Hello Mister Dude. Do you know if the charger "just charges" when it is connected to mains on one side and on a load or battery on the other side, like any ordinary chargers? Or maybe does it need some CAN bus discussion with a "master" to make sure he has the right to charge, prior to applying energy to its output? In the latter case, the test would be much more complicated.
That isnt really more complicated. An Arduino with a CAN shield would work.... that said, its just a jumper on his 2013. Im not sure about the 2016 and newer bikes, but the charger itself hasnt changed, so I wouldnt expect it to work differently.
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OK guys,
I swept through all my logs since I own that 2014 S (14 months now), and picked up the end-of charge voltage as shown in the log file. Made a graph of this voltage vs date, please see attached.
The evolution tendency is quite clear. where will it stop sinking? Or will the charger completely breakdown suddenly?
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Thanks for charting that. Onboard charger troubleshooting and prediction would be good to improve.
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Thanks for charting that. Onboard charger troubleshooting and prediction would be good to improve.
Is that the way a charger fails? Or could it be one or more failing cells in the battery pack that are reaching an excessively high voltage and that causes the BMS to shut the charger off? In my case, I found that the charger would cut off at 92%, but if you left it plugged in for a few more days, the voltage would increase about 2% a day, until 98% would be indicated, at which time I would pull the plug and go riding. ???
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Thanks for charting that. Onboard charger troubleshooting and prediction would be good to improve.
Is that the way a charger fails? Or could it be one or more failing cells in the battery pack that are reaching an excessively high voltage and that causes the BMS to shut the charger off? In my case, I found that the charger would cut off at 92%, but if you left it plugged in for a few more days, the voltage would increase about 2% a day, until 98% would be indicated, at which time I would pull the plug and go riding. ???
I don't know! Your hypothesis sounds very good and testable, though, via logs.
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each time I checked with the app, the imbalance was shown at about 3mV. Means there is no issue with the battery itself, hopefully.
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each time I checked with the app, the imbalance was shown at about 3mV. Means there is no issue with the battery itself, hopefully.
I had similar cell balance readings when I had my 2014 w/PT, but I am just not sure how reliable those voltages are. ??? After four years and hundreds of recharges I would have expected that the various pack voltages would be off more than that, plus I am also not sure just what packs are being monitored by the app/BMS system. The number flash up on the screen kind of randomly and don't indicate which pack voltage is being tested. In particular, I wonder if it is really checking the Power Tank (which failed once when the PT was first installed and needed to be completely replaced by a factory technician). The voltages displayed on the app seem to be checking only three or four cell packs, not the five that I believe a 2014 S with a PT has installed in the chassis. ???
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I can now answer my own question regarding time to on-board charger failure from observation of initial symptoms of degradation --- about 8 months. My 2014 on-board charger failed (suddenly) to a state that tripped GFI. My local dealer's service department was booked for several weeks, but suggested that the factory might be able to assist. Indeed, the factory was able to help out (props to the various folks in Zero's customer service), so I'm back on the road with an updated on-board charger.
There is now at least one case for which a degrading on-board charger can fail suddenly, please bear that in mind when planning journeys. In my case, if the degrading on-board charger had failed one day sooner, I would have had an unplanned long walk....
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Hello dvdt, what do you mean with "updated charger"? Has it been replaced, or repaired via a miracle firmware up?
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I can now answer my own question regarding time to on-board charger failure from observation of initial symptoms of degradation --- about 8 months. My 2014 on-board charger failed (suddenly) to a state that tripped GFI. My local dealer's service department was booked for several weeks, but suggested that the factory might be able to assist. Indeed, the factory was able to help out (props to the various folks in Zero's customer service), so I'm back on the road with an updated on-board charger.
There is now at least one case for which a degrading on-board charger can fail suddenly, please bear that in mind when planning journeys. In my case, if the degrading on-board charger had failed one day sooner, I would have had an unplanned long walk....
Was there any warning before it failed? Did it slowly refuse to charge to 100% (or in my 2014 S's case only charging to 92% and 113 volts) or did the charger operate normally, before it suddenly failed, which in your case sounds like an internal short?
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Howdy Hubert
what do you mean with "updated charger" --- the on board charger was replaced with a new on board charger having an updated part number. Unfortunately, no miracle firmware solution, my regrets for the ambiguous wording.
Hi Richard
The charger operated normally one evening, charging to about 95% at time I unplugged it to begin my return ride home. In the recent past, 96% was as high as the on-board charger would reach. The next morning, plugging in at work at a GFI 120VAC outlet I've used many times in the past several years, the GFI would trip immediately. I tried a few other circuits (perhaps not the most prudent choice in retrospect) with similar results of tripping GFI.
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Howdy Hubert
what do you mean with "updated charger" --- the on board charger was replaced with a new on board charger having an updated part number. Unfortunately, no miracle firmware solution, my regrets for the ambiguous wording.
Hi Richard
The charger operated normally one evening, charging to about 95% at time I unplugged it to begin my return ride home. In the recent past, 96% was as high as the on-board charger would reach. The next morning, plugging in at work at a GFI 120VAC outlet I've used many times in the past several years, the GFI would trip immediately. I tried a few other circuits (perhaps not the most prudent choice in retrospect) with similar results of tripping GFI.
Thanks for the update. I'll keep my fingers crossed that my daughter's charger hangs in there. She is in the process of buying a home and doesn't need any surprise expenses.
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OK, thank you dvdt for the news. And ahh, the most imporant question, was it replaced in warranty despite the 2014 being OOW? If not, how much have you been charged for the charger? :-)
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my OEM charger failed suddenly on my 2014 Zero, no previous warning. it was replaced under warranty though.
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For me , Zero motorcycle is cool ... Thanks ZERO...
On my zero s 2014 48000 KMS, the company gave me and install new charger for free, about 1300 $ can., under warranty.
My old charger had passed slowly 100 % to 85 % last 2 months.
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For me , Zero motorcycle is cool ... Thanks ZERO...
On my zero s 2014 48000 KMS, the company gave me and install new charger for free, about 1300 $ can., under warranty.
My old charger had passed slowly 100 % to 85 % last 2 months.
My question is: Is that the charger failing, or is that an indication that there is an issue with one of more cells of the battery pack? My daughter's charger shuts off at 92%, but if she leaves it plugged in for a week, the charger will turn on by itself once a day and charge for a short time before shutting down again. Eventually the pack's charge display will climb to 100%. So what does that mean? ???
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in june the charger 'issue was ecxatly similar to bike' daughter. But , in july and august , the top charge was 85 %, 112 volts never more
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in june the charger 'issue was ecxatly similar to bike' daughter. But , in july and august , the top charge was 85 %, 112 volts never more
I don't know what to make of that. ??? I wonder what could fail in a charger that would make it stop charging at 112 volts? I might add that when my daughter's 2014 S would stop charging at 92% the voltage on the Zero app would indicate 113 volts.
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Did some chargings with an external charger adjusted at 116.5V, and indeed, I can get 100% again. Using only the onboard charger, it tops at 95% (before unplugging), and at start of riding the display falls immediately down to 93%.
Definitely not a battery issue! The remaining question, how long until the onboard charger dies completely?
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Probably a few months. The diginow does the Power tank and monolith balancing as requested by Zero. Its really cool to watch if they get out of sync, you see one of them top up until it matches the other one and then they start to charge together. If they get really out of wack, it charges them to full independantly then puts them together for cell balancing.
Indiegogo has 11 days left ;)