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[KuRi]

Hi,

I am an owner of a 2020 DSR bike. Recently I have noticed a decreased range of about 10-15% (after 4 years but only 15.000km).

I have always treated the battery very carefully (never < 20%, only charge to 100% when need a long travel (usually only 80%), no 100% storage, no charging when hot, etc etc etc...)
A 10% of decreased capacity could be acceptable, but my main concern is that if I stop the bike at 28% and wait for some hours, the SoC raises to 44% (magic charging).
 
I am very worried that it will completely fail after the 5 year warranty and I want to claim zero for a new battery under warranty, and then sell the bike if that does not happen.

What are your thoughts? Is zero replacing batteries when magic charging is happening??? (It has never happened before the 4 years of use).

Thanks all in advance for your comments.
Cheers.

[princec]

Yep, it's broken, get it booked in ASAP.

Cas

[ESokoloff]

When you say that you only charge to 100% when needed do you mean that every time it needs to be charged you let it charge to 100% or that you only charge to 100% when you need full capacity to get to your destination. 
I suspect the former & would suggest to not charge to 100% unless needed. 
I try to maintain 30/70 battery level after the original battery was replaced (warranty) @ nearly 60k miles. 
The replacement battery has over 30k miles & still in good shape.

[KuRi]

When you say that you only charge to 100% when needed do you mean that every time it needs to be charged you let it charge to 100% or that you only charge to 100% when you need full capacity to get to your destination. 
I suspect the former & would suggest to not charge to 100% unless needed. 
I try to maintain 30/70 battery level after the original battery was replaced (warranty) @ nearly 60k miles. 
The replacement battery has over 30k miles & still in good shape.

It is the second. I charge it only to 80%. When I need the full capacity because of a long travel I charge it to 100% (once in a month and I use it just after it reaches 100%). Cheers.

[2020_SRS_Commuter]

Is your firmware the "Latest and Greatest"? I don't know if your kind of bike has firmware updates, but just asking.

I ask because from new, my 2020 SRS from any trip where I was riding fast on the highway would rebound from the SOC shown when I stopped to turn it off to anywhere from 5%-20% higher after a period of time being off. The faster and longer the ride, the greater the rebound. It was like that for four years. It never bothered me, but it was there.
 
I put off firmware updates for a long time, and last month updated to the newest because it said there were improvements to battery reporting and isolation fault parameters. After the latest updates, the rebounding SOC completely disappeared.  Whatever it says when I turn it off it is what it says later when I turn it on. They've made some sort of change to the way its calculated.
So far my bike has 50k miles on the original battery, and still has full capacity, or so close I cant tell the difference. 

[gt13013]

Hello
Sometimes the change in the SOC estimations comes from a firmware change (and not from the battery).
See my own experience here:
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=11638.0

[princec]

The cast-iron test if you've got a bad battery is magic charging. If your SOC goes up by more than 10% over a couple of hours, your battery is buggered. The new 15.6+ batteries do not exhibit this issue. Pretty much all of the 14.4 batteries in the Gen 3 bikes eventually exhibit the problem. Zero dealers here in the UK have just been quietly replacing every single one of them, no questions asked. My dealer says every single bike they sold eventually had the issue.

Cas

[Richard230]

The cast-iron test if you've got a bad battery is magic charging. If your SOC goes up by more than 10% over a couple of hours, your battery is buggered. The new 15.6+ batteries do not exhibit this issue. Pretty much all of the 14.4 batteries in the Gen 3 bikes eventually exhibit the problem. Zero dealers here in the UK have just been quietly replacing every single one of them, no questions asked. My dealer says every single bike they sold eventually had the issue.

Cas

So far neither my 2018 Zero, nor my daughter's 2014 Zero have displayed that issue. Both SOC displays are very stable.

[DonTom]

Some good info on Magic Charging in this thread.


-Don-  Reno, NV

[gt13013]

Another possibility is a change in the firmware way to estimate the SOC.
Here is some of my experience with my FXS 2016.

My old firmware was mainly calculating the SOC from the estimated capacity of the pack in Ah, and the Coulomb counting in Ah. That made the SOC monotonously decreasing, and accurate. Nice !
Indeed, all the logs with this firmware contained lines like
- "Switching to voltage SOC mode"
- "Switching to coulomb couning SOC mode" (there was a typo in the logs: it was written couning instead of counting)

And I am pretty sure also that the new firmware that has been installed is mainly calculating the SOC from the pack voltage, that is greatly oscillating depending on the way you use the bike.
And since this new firmware was installed, there is no line in the logs saying that the SOC mode is using Coulomb counting.

That is why the first thing is to answer if the change in SOC behaviour is correlated with a firmware change or not.
Of course, if the firmware has not been changed, the problem probably comes from the battery.

But it is still not certain. I have also experienced a fundamental change in my bike behavior due to the fact that the MBB had lost all its settings. The most visible consequence was a jump in the odometer (it increased by 3000 kms in one night), and completely wrong odometer count, wrong speeds (all that came from a lost transmission ratio), and also some less visible parameters were lost (pack capacity, VIN number,...). Of course, in that case, the SOC calculation became quite confused also...
Zero reprogrammed the bike and after that it worked fine.

The conclusion is that you should be attentive to anything else that could have changed in the bike (in my case: firmware, and MBB losing its settings).

[KuRi]

I just got an answer from Zero after reviewing my logs... NO BATTERY REPLACEMENT UNDER WARRANTY...

Sorry for the caps, but this is very dissapointing. They are always claiming the benefits of electric motorbikes and the savings you can get from recharging at home, but... if after 5 years you have to pay $8000k for a battery replacement... where are the savings??? It becomes the most expensive bike EVER...

They say the bike shows an estimated Battery Health of 85% which is over the guaranteed 80% and nothing else they will do.

What else can I do? I own more than 5 electric vehicles, and I know perfectly how batteries work and this one will be failing after the 5 years for sure...

P.D: I think I have the latest firmware, updated some months ago at the dealer.

[gt13013]

What else can I do? I own more than 5 electric vehicles, and I know perfectly how batteries work and this one will be failing after the 5 years for sure...
P.D: I think I have the latest firmware, updated some months ago at the dealer.

You can learn how to check your battery capacity by yourself and see how it compares to the nominal value, and if it is decreasing or not. That is the way I do.

[KuRi]

What else can I do? I own more than 5 electric vehicles, and I know perfectly how batteries work and this one will be failing after the 5 years for sure...
P.D: I think I have the latest firmware, updated some months ago at the dealer.

You can learn how to check your battery capacity by yourself and see how it compares to the nominal value, and if it is decreasing or not. That is the way I do.

Yeah, I did it and it is about ~85%, but what if the battery range decreases dramatically after the 5 years warranty period. Very bad for ZERO, lost customer. Once the battery is dead I will sell the bike and back to gas until they give 10 years of warranty...

[DJ T-Cubed]

I not only have "Magic Charging" I also have "Magic Discharging." E.G., when it charges way faster than it should (like 30% to 80% in 30 minutes at 50 aH), I'll drive a mile and shut it off. When it turn the bike on again (after a few minutes), the 80% SoC is down 20 to 30%. Anyone else have this issue?

2020 SR/F

[gadgetgirl]

I not only have "Magic Charging" I also have "Magic Discharging." E.G., when it charges way faster than it should (like 30% to 80% in 30 minutes at 50 aH), I'll drive a mile and shut it off. When it turn the bike on again (after a few minutes), the 80% SoC is down 20 to 30%. Anyone else have this issue?

2020 SR/F

Yes, those symptoms are consistent with a buggered battery that needs replacing. It's what happened with my 2020 SR/F pack, and I've heard many reports from others that are the same with failed gen 3 packs.

Another possibility is a change in the firmware way to estimate the SOC.
Here is some of my experience with my FXS 2016.

My old firmware was mainly calculating the SOC from the estimated capacity of the pack in Ah, and the Coulomb counting in Ah. That made the SOC monotonously decreasing, and accurate. Nice !
Indeed, all the logs with this firmware contained lines like
- "Switching to voltage SOC mode"
- "Switching to coulomb couning SOC mode" (there was a typo in the logs: it was written couning instead of counting)

And I am pretty sure also that the new firmware that has been installed is mainly calculating the SOC from the pack voltage, that is greatly oscillating depending on the way you use the bike.
And since this new firmware was installed, there is no line in the logs saying that the SOC mode is using Coulomb counting.

That is why the first thing is to answer if the change in SOC behaviour is correlated with a firmware change or not.
Of course, if the firmware has not been changed, the problem probably comes from the battery.

But it is still not certain. I have also experienced a fundamental change in my bike behavior due to the fact that the MBB had lost all its settings. The most visible consequence was a jump in the odometer (it increased by 3000 kms in one night), and completely wrong odometer count, wrong speeds (all that came from a lost transmission ratio), and also some less visible parameters were lost (pack capacity, VIN number,...). Of course, in that case, the SOC calculation became quite confused also...
Zero reprogrammed the bike and after that it worked fine.

The conclusion is that you should be attentive to anything else that could have changed in the bike (in my case: firmware, and MBB losing its settings).

I'm only aware of premature pack failure issue happening to the 14.4 packs for the gen3 bikes. Have the prior generations been having pack troubles too? The 3 dealers near me that I've talked to say they have handled many gen 3 14.4 failed pack replacements. I've only heard normal aging for the prior and following 15.6/17.3 packs.