ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: GoneToPlaid on March 27, 2021, 03:13:06 AM
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I just mounted four Diginow SCv2 chargers on my DSR, and rode over to the electric co-op office to test with their Chargepoint EVSE. I had trouble activating both plugs at once. I used my phone and NFC to authenticate, which would unlatch the plugs. The first one I plugged in to my chargers worked, but the second one would not. Scanning my phone again would not let me use the other plug. Eventually I made a second Chargepoint account, and used it to authenticate and was then able to use the second plug.
Is there an easier way to use dual J1772 plugs with a Chargepoint station? Searching this forum and the web has not turned up anything for me so far.
I mounted two chargers per side, in little aluminum side boxes. It's not done yet, but ready enough for testing.
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How dare you try to give them twice as much money!
Tho it probably saves them all the people who swap from one side to the other being double charged...
-Crissa
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Right, or the wrong person being charged somehow. Mostly I think they just don't expect this use case. This particular charger is free, though :).
I think Chargepoint also will issue a payment card. So I may get two cards, for two accounts, and just keep them in the tank bag. That would be a lot faster than logging out of one account and into the other.
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I’ve done this Several times, you have to either call ChargePoint and ask them to activate a second charger on your account, or get the payment card and swipe it at the second station. You can’t activate two stations from your phone at once.
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Ruins someone paying for someone else's charge, I suppose. Like caravanning during a move.
-Crissa
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They made it seem like I could make one phone call to their support line and they’d activate however many you want!
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Use the app to start one. Tap your phone to start the other one. Or order an RFID card for $5.
I’ve done this Several times, you have to either call ChargePoint and ask them to activate a second charger on your account, or get the payment card and swipe it at the second station. You can’t activate two stations from your phone at once.
You absolutely can. Just in two different ways.
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I have several CharePoint cards. I never pay any attention to which one I use at a 2nd machine. I have charged my SR at 8KW several times and Chargepoints can usually only do around 6.6 each IIRC so I often hog up two stations.
FWIW, I wish they would get rid of all those J1772's and simply replace them all with a 14-50R's. And then we can get 12KW out of a single outlet. Same with Tesla Destination chargers.
BTW, can somebody here explain why a pilot signal is necessary for any vehicle? It often causes problems for nothing, IMO.
I can charge all four of my EVs direct from 14-50R, so why all the unnecessary BS in J1772 and TD stations? It's all just 240 VAC, but the 14-50R is usually 12KW capable.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'm sure they limit the output for the same reason they don't just leave out a 50a outlet. The pilot signal is to tell the charging vehicle how much it can draw. And not every circuit is okay with a 50a draw.
-Crissa
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I'm sure they limit the output for the same reason they don't just leave out a 50a outlet. The pilot signal is to tell the charging vehicle how much it can draw. And not every circuit is okay with a 50a draw.
-Crissa
It doesn't work that way. If your EV charger draws ten amps at 240 VAC, it will draw ten amps even with a source capable of a billion amps. That is why I asked.
240 VAC times ten amp draw =2,400 watts.
If you have a supply capable of a billion amps, the math is the same, it's still a ten amp draw from that billion amp supply and you still have 2,400 watts.
I assume the pilot has something to do with safety and is unnecessary overkill.
I see no reason to NOT use a 14-50R for all EV charging. I think part of the fear is some people won't understand what happens if they get their fingers in the plug somehow. I know J-1772 is off until it is connected, unlike a 14-50R which is always hot and dangerous around idiots.
I just now looked it up here. (https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/75960/electric-car-j1772-charger-pilot-signal-sequencing-with-passive-circuitry)It looks like the so called pilot in J-1772 is just the diode and the resistor and is only there for safety reasons. Must be the same on the Tesla Destination stations and what will also explain why some vehicles do not like the regular Tesla-Tap. It's because you have the diode and resistor then in parallel. One time to activate the J-1772 and another one to active the Tesla station. But now they are both in parallel and about half (diodes are tricky here) the total resistance.
And that 100% explains why they sell this box. (http://www.umc-j1772.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=17&product_id=125) It's not to be used with a J-1772. That would defeat its entire purpose.
BTW, I opened mine to see what is inside. NOTING except the wires. But the diode and resistor is part of the Tesla inlet that I cannot see. No diode, no resistor that I can see, but I do see it on the small pins with an ohmmeter. That explains how it works. Then when plugged into with Tesla Destination station it then only see the ONE "pilot" it expects to see and NOT the one from the J-1772 because there is no J-1172 when this box is used.
So that explains it all. And I still say the plain 14-50R is better, just not as idiot-proofed.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'm sure they limit the output for the same reason they don't just leave out a 50a outlet. The pilot signal is to tell the charging vehicle how much it can draw. And not every circuit is okay with a 50a draw.
It doesn't work that way. If your EV charger draws ten amps at 240 VAC, it will draw ten amps even with a source capable of a billion amps. That is why I asked.
It does work that way. If your charger is capable of 12, and the EVSE is only capable of 3, the pilot signal tells your charger not to exceed 3. That is the entire purpose of an EVSE, to electrically communicate the capacity of the outlet.
And that 100% explains why they sell this box. (http://www.umc-j1772.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=17&product_id=125) It's not to be used with a J-1772. That would defeat its entire purpose.
That device might be handy, but it defeats the safety. If you draw 12 through it and the EVSE was only capable of 7, you will set the EVSE's circuit on fire. An electrician or inspector would be very cross with your installation.
-Crissa
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It does work that way. If your charger is capable of 12, and the EVSE is only capable of 3, the pilot signal tells your charger not to exceed 3. That is the entire purpose of an EVSE, to electrically communicate the capacity of the outlet.
Ever see a 14-50R that was only capable of three KWs? Now you see what I mean? We do not have to tell the 14-50R anything at all. We only have to tell the J-1772. The problem is caused by its own stupid design (IMO) of the J-1772.
That device might be handy, but it defeats the safety. If you draw 12 through it and the EVSE was only capable of 7, you will set the EVSE's circuit on fire. An electrician or inspector would be very cross with your installation.
Nope, that is not a real issue, That is why the charge stations all have circuit breakers (and yes, I have tripped a couple with my 7.9 KWs from a single station). But a plain 14-50R can handle the entire 50 amps at 240 VAC, at least in most cases, before the CB will trip. Usually 60 amp CBs are used with home 12 KW Telsa Destination stations as they follow the 80% rule. That is 48 amps. That is what I have at my houses.
That is as good as a 14-50R. And a few Tesla Destination stations are 16KW (66 amps). Even better than the 14-50R.
The big limitations are on the J-1772, Probably is for safety, but it's the exact same issue with anybody who has a 14-50R in their garage and many do. So why not get rid of the J-1772 and replace them all with a 14-50R that everybody can use at any current draw needed? Why should an inspector pass a house with a 14-50R but not out on the road? Makes no sense to me.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Ever see a 14-50R that was only capable of three KWs?
No. Because that would violate the electrical code.
On the other hand, you can have EVSEs on all sorts of circuits. And that pilot signal tells the EV what it's plugged into.
Your little device defeats those safety measures.
-Crissa
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Ever see a 14-50R that was only capable of three KWs?
No. Because that would violate the electrical code.
On the other hand, you can have EVSEs on all sorts of circuits. And that pilot signal tells the EV what it's plugged into.
Your little device defeats those safety measures.
-Crissa
On J-1772, it is just a diode and a resistor that tells the station to turn on. Nothing complicated about it. Either you get 240 VAC or you don't. Nothing to adjust the voltage to change the current draw.
On DC charging, it can get quite complicated. The chargers are real chargers and run a fancy program. That is where they need the signals to tell the true DC charger what voltage and current your EV can handle. My Energica will be perhaps 25 KW. The next person to plug in could get 150 KW from the same charger, as well as at a much different voltage. And even adjusts by battery temperature as well as SOC and everything else possible. I don't claim to know fully how DC charging works. But I do know it is nothing like a J-1772.
But J1772's are NOT chargers at all. They are much like a 240 VAC outlet in your house. No way to control it other than off and on.
IMO, J1772, even though very simple, has a lot of unnecessary BS at the high price of current availability.
With DC charging the complexity is necessary. But not with AC. Just give me a 14-50R and let me charge at my full 8KW, please. You can have all the J-1772 stations that can only do 6.6 KW or whatever.
If all Tesla destination stations as well as all J-1772's were replaced with a simple 14-50R, I could always charge at the max and not have to carry nearly as many adapters.
I hope somebody here can explain the big advantage with J-1772 over a simple 14-50R. I only see the disadvantages and there are many.
At least the Tesla Destination stations can often do 12 KW or better, unlike the J-1772.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Your little device defeats those safety measures.
-Crissa
One safety measure of J-1772 is that it is expected that many cars will charge outdoors in the rain. A lot of the safety features of J-1772 is about that possibility.
But all they really need there is GFI. And the same GFI can be on a 14-50R.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don, you're just talking gibberish.
The station's signal tells the vehicle what amperage it can charge at.
Again, that's important. Ask anyone why.
-Crissa
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A whole lot of engineers spent years arguing over the SAE J1772 standard - I'll leave it to them, thanks.
I have two Chargepoint cards, for two different accounts, on the way. Soon see if that reduces friction when dual-J charging.
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Don, you're just talking gibberish.
The station's signal tells the vehicle what amperage it can charge at.
Again, that's important. Ask anyone why.
-Crissa
I will ask you why.
How does it do that on a J-1772? Does it change the AC voltage or what?
And more importantly, why is it NOT necessary to tell a 14-50R the same? It just charges. If you have a 3KW charger, it will charge up to 3KW. If you have a 12 KW charger, it will charge up to 12 KW.
So why does one need to be told and not the other?
-Don- Reno, NV
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A whole lot of engineers spent years arguing over the SAE J1772 standard
I certainly can understand why!
I just find it kinda stupid to only have 6.6 KW available when there is at least 12 KW available to start with.
My real complaint is I want to be able to always charge my bike at 8KW from a single outlet, when on the road, just as I do at home!
-Don- Reno, NV
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I will ask you why.
How does it do that on a J-1772? Does it change the AC voltage or what?
No, it doesn't change the AC. The pilot signal tells the vehicle what's available.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Proximity_Pilot
The vehicle measures the pilot signal for resistance - just a like a multimeter - and gets a result that tells it what power the station is capable of.
And more importantly, why is it NOT necessary to tell a 14-50R the same?
Because a 14-50 only does 50a. It is considered unsafe or broken if it cannot supply 50a. It only is allowed to be installed where 50a is available.
There's literally a different shape plug for every amp supply. 15, 20, 30, 50. You can't plug a 20 into a 15. You can't plug a 30 into a 20. You can't plug a 50 into a 30.
But you can always plug a J1772 into a J1772 no matter if it's a 13a or a 32a because the standard requires the EVSE to tell the vehicle what's available, and the vehicle to adapt to what's available.
-Crissa
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Because a 14-50 only does 50a.
Only? What vehicle has an AC charger of more than 12,000 watts (240VAC times 50 amps=12,000 watts)? But perhaps there is a Tesla 14 KW out there as 14KW destination charge stations do exist.
That is what makes J-1772 so stupid, IMO. Unnecessary limitations, IMO. Most of them are probably fed using a 50 amp (or more) source.
Yeah, they need the pilot because of the limitations of it that would NOT be there if the J-1772 didn't exist at all and we could simply get to what is feeding it.
IOW, tell the J-1772 that your 12 KW vehicle AC charger can only accept 6.6 KW because the J-1772 is only capable of 6.6 KW. But if the J-1772 didn't exist you could then get the full 12KW. That's what makes J1772 so stupid, IMO.
Notice Tesla Destination did NOT go that stupid route and they have 14KW AC stations all over. The nice thing is that even our Zeros can use them with an adapter. None of that needing two charge stations BS. Doesn't matter what Telsa or non-Tesla is using it, get up to 14KW, at least with some. And that is fine even with your bike. It will only draw what your bikes AC charger is capable of. No need to tell a 14-50R (or whatever) anything.
BTW, I am not sure if any Teslas have a 14KW AC charger. I have not yet heard of such, but I do wonder why some of the Tesla Destination stations are 14KW of AC capable.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Because a 14-50 only does 50a.
Only? What vehicle has an AC charger of more than 12,000 watts (240VAC times 50 amps=12,000 watts)? But perhaps there is a Tesla 14 KW out there as 14KW destination charge stations do exist.
That is what makes J-1772 so stupid, IMO. Unnecessary limitations, IMO. Most of them are probably fed using a 50 amp (or more) source.
Yeah, they need the pilot because of the limitations of it that would NOT be there if the J-1772 didn't exist at all and we could simply get to what is feeding it.
IOW, tell the J-1772 that your 12 KW vehicle AC charger can only accept 6.6 KW because the J-1772 is only capable of 6.6 KW. But if the J-1772 didn't exist you could then get the full 12KW. That's what makes J1772 so stupid, IMO.
Notice Tesla Destination did NOT go that stupid route and they have 14KW AC stations all over. The nice thing is that even our Zeros can use them with an adapter. None of that needing two charge stations BS. Doesn't matter what Telsa or non-Tesla is using it, get up to 14KW, at least with some. And that is fine even with your bike. It will only draw what your bikes AC charger is capable of. No need to tell a 14-50R (or whatever) anything.
BTW, I am not sure if any Teslas have a 14KW AC charger. I have not yet heard of such, but I do wonder why some of the Tesla Destination stations are 14KW of AC capable.
-Don- Reno, NV
Don, I agree that replacing J1772 stations with NEMA 14-50 plugs would be good for some people. The problem is that like Carissa indicated using J1772 makes things more compatible. A lot of the J1772 stations aren't capable of 50A, I would say most of them aren't, so that basically ends the conversation about replacing J1772 stations with 14-50 plugs. Requiring that every charging station has 50A capability, and access to reset the breaker if it trips, is cost prohibitive. A lot of places have shared stations, so if only one charger is being used, you get 32A, if the other station nearby starts getting used, your current will drop to 16A, and the other station will use 16A too. You can't do that without some sort of communication, and for better or worse, the industry has determined that J1772 is the standard.
-ryan
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Don, I agree that replacing J1772 stations with NEMA 14-50 plugs would be good for some people. The problem is that like Carissa indicated using J1772 makes things more compatible. A lot of the J1772 stations aren't capable of 50A, I would say most of them aren't, so that basically ends the conversation about replacing J1772 stations with 14-50 plugs. Requiring that every charging station has 50A capability, and access to reset the breaker if it trips, is cost prohibitive. A lot of places have shared stations, so if only one charger is being used, you get 32A, if the other station nearby starts getting used, your current will drop to 16A, and the other station will use 16A too. You can't do that without some sort of communication, and for better or worse, the industry has determined that J1772 is the standard.
-ryan
I think you will find that most J plugs are fed by circuits that can do a lot better than 50 amps. BTW, today, I charged at an 80 amp (yeah 80 amp) Tesla destination station. 240 VAC times 80 amps=19,200 watts. I would NOT be surprised to find that type of capacity going into J-plugs. It's the J-plug itself that is not rated for such current. That is what makes it so dumb these days. So much current capability going in, but so little available after it gets to most J-1772 boxes. But it's an old standard.
FWIW, I cannot think of any EV that cannot charge from a 14-50R in one way or another. But some granny cables are not rated that high. Tesla limits anything other than their own connectors to 38 amps (7,680 watts). But at least the 14-50R isn't limited by the 38 amps as are most J-plugs (there are a few J-plugs that can do 8.5 KW these days, but not many).
I am in the habit of looking at the capacity of every AC charge station I use. That's how I discovered the 80 Amp ones at USA ParkWay (near the Tesla battery plant). BTW, these boxes also said "for indoor use only" yet they were all outside. So I do not know for sure that they are wired for 80 amps. Plugshare says they are 16KW, which will be only 66.6 amps, but they clearly say 240 VAC and 80 amps right on the Tesla box.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don, a 14-50 literally requires a 50a circuit.
A J1772 does not.
A plug that goes into a 14-50 only goes into a 14-50. It can't plug into anything else. And further, every 14-50 can only be put on a 50a circuit. Only.
A J1772 can be fitted to a 15a, a 30a, or a 50a circuit. One plug to rule them all, instead of four. And the vehicle can change what charger capacity based upon what's available, instead of you flipping switches and guessing until the breaker pops.
You might be 'surprised' that 80a wasn't available. But you know what? Do you have 80a 'available' from your dryer outlet? From your regular wall outlet? From a 30a RV outlet? No? But you could put a J1772 EVSE on any of those.
-Crissa
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Don, a 14-50 literally requires a 50a circuit.
What makes you think that? You can use 14-50R with any current from 0 to 50 amps.
A plug that goes into a 14-50 only goes into a 14-50.
Ever hear of adapters? You can plug a J1772 into a 14-50R. I have a stock granny cable that can only be used with 14-50R, but it's limited to 15 amps (3.6 KW) even if plugged into the full 50 amps (12,000 watts) which again makes my point.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don, a 14-50 literally requires a 50a circuit.
What makes you think that? You can use 14-50R with any current from 0 to 50 amps.
True, but meaningless.
I thought you said you knew the difference between load and circuit? The supply circuit for a 14-50 must be capable of 50a. You cannot legally install them on just any circuit.
Ever hear of adapters?
Have you heard that a J1772 EVSE automatically tells the vehicle the supply availability, hence is itself an adapter?
-Crissa
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I thought you said you knew the difference between load and circuit? The supply circuit for a 14-50 must be capable of 50a. You cannot legally install them on just any circuit.
Is that code somewhere? I don't see why anybody would care if you have a 14-50R used with a 5 amp circuit breaker with ten amp wiring.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I thought you said you knew the difference between load and circuit? The supply circuit for a 14-50 must be capable of 50a. You cannot legally install them on just any circuit.
Is that code somewhere? I don't see why anybody would care if you have a 14-50R used with a 5 amp circuit breaker with ten amp wiring.
Yes. It would be against the uniform electrical code. It would defeat the safety purpose of 50a plugs being impossible to plug into 5a circuits.
-Crissa
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Yes. It would be against the uniform electrical code. It would defeat the safety purpose of 50a plugs being impossible to plug into 5a circuits.
-Crissa
I don't see much of a safety issue if it's on a 5 amp breaker. Equipment that draws more just won't work when the CB trips. But I don't try to keep up with why they have some building codes. They often change from one town to the next.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I don't see much of a safety issue if it's on a 5 amp breaker. Equipment that draws more just won't work when the CB trips.
- That would be illegal.
- That would be a big liability.
- That would be a pain for the user.
- "What do you mean, I can only charge at 5a! I plugged in a 50s plug!"
- "What do you mean it tripped? How do I turn it back on?"
- "I have to plug it in, read the amperage on the label, then select that amperage n my vehicle?"
- "Oh no, the breaker fused/tripped late the wires are on fire!"
*sigh*
-Crissa
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BTW, I am not sure if any Teslas have a 14KW AC charger. I have not yet heard of such, but I do wonder why some of the Tesla Destination stations are 14KW of AC capable.
-Don- Reno, NV
I found the answer to my Question. Some old Tesla Model S's have two 12KW AC chargers. They could use the full 80 amp (19,200 watt) Tesla charge stations. The 80 amp Tesla Wall Connectors are no longer available, but we can still find a few 80 amp destination charge stations on the road.
Perhaps because now they have the SuperCharge Network and fast AC charging is usually no longer necessary.
-Don- Reno, NV