ElectricMotorcycleForum.com

Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: DanielCoffey on June 11, 2019, 01:11:23 AM

Title: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: DanielCoffey on June 11, 2019, 01:11:23 AM
Under normal circumstances, how much does the DigiNow charger slow down as it approaches the end of a charge?

The situation is that I have a single 3.3kW unit with the v2.5 controller and I am one of the unfortunate folks with a faulty unit who are awaiting a replacement controller under warranty.

One of the faults with my controller is that it does not taper the charge as the target voltage is approached so if I set it to 3300W, it maintains that power output all the way till the cutoff voltage is reached then stops. The voltage lift caused by the high charging current means that once charging is terminated (at 116.4V) the pack voltage sags back down nearly a couple of volts (115.0V) and ends up with about 95% SOC and correspondingly reduced max range.

If I use the bluetooth app to set a slower charge rate, the voltage lift is lower so I can get closer to the desired voltage but I have to do this manually each time. It takes a slow charge of 800W to actually charge the pack to the point to where 100% SOC is displayed on the dash once charging stops. Even then there is still a bit of voltage lift.

I was wondering how low a charge rate it was supposed to deliver at the end of the charge cycle?

Ordinarily I would not mind only charging to 95% but I do have an appointment coming up soon where I will want to leave with a completely full charge so I will have to juggle it manually while I wait for a replacement controller.

Out of interest, does anyone know how slowly the stock charger used to go at the end of charge?
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: flattetyre on June 11, 2019, 01:31:19 AM
What kind of charger DOESN'T have CV phase? That's just ghetto.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: DanielCoffey on June 11, 2019, 01:35:07 AM
As I said, I have a known defective controller and this is unexpected behaviour. I am just needing advice on how to achieve a 100% charge manually as though the charger was operating normally.

Once Brandon has received supplies of working v3.0 controllers I am on the list to receive one.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on June 11, 2019, 01:58:22 AM
The DigiNow controller does have a CV phase.

I am also waiting on a v3.0 controller, as my v2.5 controller appears to have developed a dead transmit line/wire. I've been commuting on v2 for the last two months.

For DigiNow 2.5, the ramp rate setting (documented by me at the unofficial manual) determines how the CV phase proceeds.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: DanielCoffey on June 11, 2019, 02:24:11 AM
It is the end of charge ramp I need to know more about. I know the initial ramp is 50W per tick but I don't know how much it slows at the tail end.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: DanielCoffey on June 11, 2019, 02:36:26 AM
From looking at the manual, this is the condition that is not working on my single v2.5 unit...

"Reaction/Reduction Conditions: When reported bus voltage from any BMS >= V, the broadcast power setting ramps down at the normal ramp rate (delta P) until voltage < V"

At least I can tell how it *should* behave from this, so thanks. It is a shame my unit doesn't but it does look like it is supposed to step lower and lower until the ramp goes right down to 0W then charging stops. The last few seconds would be as low as 50W power.

Here is the output of my log showing the last few "ticks" of a charge cycle. The settings were "1164,57,1,3300,0,50"

0111 13:56:55 1164,1162,0,283,26,0,57,0,57,26,27,0,0,1,3300,3300,0,50,3
0116 13:56:57 1164,1162,0,283,27,0,57,0,57,26,27,0,0,1,3300,3300,0,50,3
0120 13:56:58 1164,1162,0,283,27,0,57,0,57,26,27,0,0,1,3300,3300,0,50,3
0124 13:56:59 1164,1164,0,283,27,0,57,0,57,26,27,0,0,1,3300,3300,0,50,3
0128 13:57:00 1165,1165,0,0,26,0,57,0,57,26,27,0,0,1,0,3300,0,50,3
0133 13:57:02 1165,1155,0,0,0,0,57,0,57,26,27,0,0,1,0,3300,0,50,3
0137 13:57:03 1165,1154,0,0,0,0,57,0,57,26,27,0,0,1,0,3300,0,50,3
0141 13:57:04 1165,1154,0,0,0,0,57,0,57,26,27,0,0,1,0,3300,0,50,3

I will create a manual profile at, say, 200W to trickle it to pretty close to 100% for the last part of a charge when I really need the full range.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on June 11, 2019, 03:11:05 AM
That's definitely not what the controller does normally, by my observations.

DigiNow may make claims one way or the other; since I don't have anything in writing from them, I rely on corroborated hearsay.

The manual profile is probably a good choice, but you could try up to 500W and most likely get a good result.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: Richard230 on June 11, 2019, 03:44:09 AM
I have connected my 2018 S Zero charger to a Kill A Watt meter and the closer it gets to a 100% charge the higher the amperage pull from my 120V wall socket - topping out at 12 amps.  Interestingly, when the charger finally decides to cut off it does so immediately, without any tapering off. Once that happens, the power draw drops to 4 or 5 watts and will stay there until you disconnect the charger cord.  I have no idea how the cells in the pack are balanced, but apparently it happens somehow as the Zero app typically shows a differential of 4 or 5 mV when the pack is fully charged.   ???
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on June 11, 2019, 04:44:52 AM
I have connected my 2018 S Zero charger to a Kill A Watt meter and the closer it gets to a 100% charge the higher the amperage pull from my 120V wall socket - topping out at 12 amps.  Interestingly, when the charger finally decides to cut off it does so immediately, without any tapering off. Once that happens, the power draw drops to 4 or 5 watts and will stay there until you disconnect the charger cord.  I have no idea how the cells in the pack are balanced, but apparently it happens somehow as the Zero app typically shows a differential of 4 or 5 mV when the pack is fully charged.   ???

The BMS performs cell balancing using its own circuit, under the conditions when there is a charger attached and (IIUC) the incoming current is below a certain value which is less than the onboard charger's typical rate of 1200W = 11A DC. When it performs balancing, it is directing the charging current in bursts to specific layers of the cell stack (all cells connected in parallel between position 1 and 28).
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: talon on June 11, 2019, 04:54:02 AM
Daniel,

I have the V2.5 "dev kit" charge control unit and mine does the same thing--sort of. I cannot say it is or isn't working as intended as I do not know how Brandon intended it to work, but I will offer this:

There is a certain method to charging to rebalance the cells and approach 100% at the same time and Brandon has said he follows Zero's way of doing this. What I notice my charger doing is only sometimes tapering down between 0-1000W at high SoC's, regardless of what my target wattage is set to (this might depend on how many units I have plugged in). Sometimes when charging it does not taper at all and this might have to do with a glitch or that balance/slowly approach 100% condition. I have been told by others in the "dev group" that not all years (and possibly individual within the same model year) Zero bms's react the same when topping off. I have noticed my displayed voltage while charging has lifted above 116.4V at higher power levels, but always rests down to a non-overcharged voltage if stopped. Some BMS's do not tolerate this and will close the contactor early. My BMS has done it occasionally leaving me at a rested voltage of 115.4-115.9V. I don't see it as a big deal really, as long as I don't come back with it below 115V. Usually the tapering presents itself as the diginow setting wattage back to 0 and re-ramping up until the voltage again passes some parameter. This is just how MY unit operates so your results may vary.

Another possibility that makes it very difficult to know exactly how these work is that by the time I approach full, the chargers may be hitting thermal cutback anyway. When operated at full power it can only take 20 minutes on a hot day for them to throttle back (a little) to protect themselves, and that is installed off the bike in the shade with the large heatsinks and fans!

Oh and my bike may have "abnormally high impedance" as presented only in temperature increase while charging. I'm still putting all the data together.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: DanielCoffey on June 11, 2019, 12:15:30 PM
Hmm... I wonder if it is the bikes BMS cutting off the charge then? If you note the line in the log where the charge ends, it briefly reaches 116.5V and perhaps the BMS cuts off instead of allowing the DigiNow to ramp down the current.

The charger is being consistent in this behaviour (apart from a second separate fault where it sometimes fails to start a charge). Regardless of the starting SOC or the charge rate I set in the app, the second the voltage lifts above the specified target, the charge stops with no ramp down at all. I have a 3300W profile, a 1300W profile and an 800W profile at the moment and on all three it approaches 1164 at full speed, tips over to 1165 and immediately stops with no ramp down.

What I will do is set up, say, a 1162 target voltage and see if the behaviour is exactly the same. It will either climb to 1163 and stop or climb to 1163 and ramp down properly. I'll report back.

Oh, and the bike is a 2018 DS 7.2 11kW.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: DanielCoffey on June 11, 2019, 06:58:20 PM
Well, well. Talon you were right. The BMS on MY bike is interfering with the DigiNow... BUT I have still found a fault with my specific v2.5 controller. Here is what is happening...

Case 1 : 1164,57,1,3300,0,50

The charge session starts and ramps up at +50W per tick. Charge rate remains steady at 3300W until 1164 is shown on both DigiNow and BMS voltages. Voltage ticks up one more to 1165 on both DigiNow and BMS. Charge session is terminated and power falls instantly to 0W. DigiNow voltage stays at 1165 but BMS voltage sags back to around 1150. See log in earlier post.

I suspect the bike's BMS is triggering a shutdown once 116.5V is reported.


Case 2 : 1162,57,1,3300,0,50

This has highlighted some odd behaviour on my specific controller. Charge session starts and ramps up as expected. Charge rate remains steady at 3300W until 1162 is shown on DigiNow and BMS. Voltage climbs one more to 1163 and DigiNow starts ramping down at -100W per tick (apart from first tick) but it appears the DigiNow voltage has latched to 1163. The BMS correctly reports the sagging voltage as the charge rate tails off but the DigiNow does not sag and does not realise it can continue to charge. It tails off evenly to zero and terminates the charge.

Here is the tail of that log...

1161,1161,0,284,21,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,3300,3300,0,50,3
1161,1161,0,284,22,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,3300,3300,0,50,3
1161,1161,0,284,22,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,3300,3300,0,50,3
1162,1162,0,283,23,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,3300,3300,0,50,3
1163,1163,0,270,23,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,3150,3300,0,50,3
1163,1162,0,262,24,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,3050,3300,0,50,3
1163,1163,0,253,24,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,2950,3300,0,50,3
1163,1163,0,245,24,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,2850,3300,0,50,3
1163,1163,0,236,23,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,2750,3300,0,50,3
1163,1163,0,227,22,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,2650,3300,0,50,3
1163,1162,0,219,21,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,2550,3300,0,50,3
1163,1162,0,210,20,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,2450,3300,0,50,3
1163,1163,0,202,19,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,2350,3300,0,50,3
1163,1161,0,193,18,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,2250,3300,0,50,3
1163,1160,0,184,17,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,2150,3300,0,50,3
1163,1160,0,176,17,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,2050,3300,0,50,3
1163,1159,0,167,16,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,1950,3300,0,50,3
1163,1159,0,159,16,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,1850,3300,0,50,3
1163,1159,0,150,15,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,1750,3300,0,50,3
1163,1158,0,141,14,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,1650,3300,0,50,3
1163,1159,0,133,12,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,1550,3300,0,50,3
1163,1159,0,124,12,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,1450,3300,0,50,3
1163,1157,0,116,11,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,1350,3300,0,50,3
1163,1156,0,107,10,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,1250,3300,0,50,3
1163,1155,0,98,9,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,1150,3300,0,50,3
1163,1155,0,90,8,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,1050,3300,0,50,3
1163,1154,0,81,8,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,950,3300,0,50,3
1163,1154,0,73,7,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,850,3300,0,50,3
1163,1155,0,64,6,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,750,3300,0,50,3
1163,1154,0,55,5,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,650,3300,0,50,3
1163,1152,0,47,4,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,550,3300,0,50,3
1163,1151,0,38,3,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,450,3300,0,50,3
1163,1151,0,30,2,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,350,3300,0,50,3
1163,1150,0,21,2,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,250,3300,0,50,3
1163,1149,0,12,1,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,150,3300,0,50,3
1163,1149,0,4,0,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,50,3300,0,50,3
1163,1150,0,0,0,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,0,3300,0,50,3
1163,1149,0,0,0,0,57,0,57,14,15,0,0,1,0,3300,0,50,3


Case 3 :  1163,57,1,1300,0,50

Charge session starts and ramps up as expected. Charge rate remains steady at 1300W until 1163 is shown on DigiNow and BMS. Voltage climbs one more to 1164 and DigiNow starts ramping down at -100W per tick (apart from first tick) but it appears the DigiNow voltage has latched to 1164. The BMS correctly reports the sagging voltage as the charge rate tails off but the DigiNow does not sag and does not realise it can continue to charge. It tails off evenly to zero and terminates the charge.

Here is the tail of that log...

1163,1163,0,111,10,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,1300,1300,0,50,3
1163,1163,0,111,10,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,1300,1300,0,50,3
1164,1164,0,98,10,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,1150,1300,0,50,3
1164,1163,0,90,9,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,1050,1300,0,50,3
1164,1162,0,81,8,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,950,1300,0,50,3
1164,1162,0,73,7,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,850,1300,0,50,3
1164,1161,0,64,6,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,750,1300,0,50,3
1164,1161,0,55,5,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,650,1300,0,50,3
1164,1160,0,47,4,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,550,1300,0,50,3
1164,1160,0,38,4,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,450,1300,0,50,3
1164,1159,0,30,3,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,350,1300,0,50,3
1164,1159,0,21,2,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,250,1300,0,50,3
1164,1157,0,12,1,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,150,1300,0,50,3
1164,1156,0,4,0,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,50,1300,0,50,3
1164,1156,0,0,0,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,0,1300,0,50,3
1164,1155,0,0,0,0,57,0,57,15,16,0,0,1,0,1300,0,50,3

It looks like no matter what I ask the DigiNow to do, it will not complete a full charge. If I set 1164 as the target voltage in the app, the bike's BMS overrides and terminates immediately that 1164 is exceeded. If I set 1163 as the target, the Diginow begins to ramp down but does not detect the sagging voltage so does not attempt to squeeze any more into the battery.

In addition, really low charge rates such as 200W are not detected by the bike display at all and it just shows the bike as resting at the End of Charge point even though the app shows the DigiNow still pushing at 200W and the voltage (very slowly) climbing.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: Richard230 on June 11, 2019, 07:59:58 PM
I will add that (not surprisingly) Zero's BMS programming seems to have changed over the years.  On my 2014 S, the charger power input would taper from around 1350 watts to 800 watts to 250 watts, before dropping to 7 watts and then shutting off when the battery pack was fully charged. This process would occur over a period of just a few minutes. That bike would (when everything was working properly) charge to 117 volts, according to the Zero app.  However, my 2018 S charges at a maximum of 1450 watts and then shuts down at 116 V without tapering the charge.  I might also add that the 2014 Zero was using the older Calex EVC-116-1200 charger model, while my new bike uses the new (hopefully longer lasting) EVC-116-1300 version.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: NEW2elec on June 11, 2019, 09:18:21 PM
Yes Richard same here.  I just got another kill-a-watt and see the same thing on my 17.  My 13 tapers off near the end of charge same as your 14, but has the 4 Meanwell units.  The app was showing the 17's amps jumping all over the place so I wanted to see what the kill-a-watt said.  It's much more consistent than the app says.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: DonTom on June 11, 2019, 11:14:14 PM
I might also add that the 2014 Zero was using the older Calex EVC-116-1200 charger model, while my new bike uses the new (hopefully longer lasting) EVC-116-1300 version.
Which do my 2017's have?

IAC, I use a couple of Q-chargers, along with the on-board for that reason--even when I am in no hurry to  charge, such as the middle of the night. I figure the less time the on-board must run, the less heat inside it for as long. So I assume faster charging from external sources will extend the life of the on-board charger by it being used for  a lot less hours than it would be when run alone.

-Don-  Auburn, CA
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: Richard230 on June 12, 2019, 03:47:25 AM
I might also add that the 2014 Zero was using the older Calex EVC-116-1200 charger model, while my new bike uses the new (hopefully longer lasting) EVC-116-1300 version.
Which do my 2017's have?

IAC, I use a couple of Q-chargers, along with the on-board for that reason--even when I am in no hurry to  charge, such as the middle of the night. I figure the less time the on-board must run, the less heat inside it for as long. So I assume faster charging from external sources will extend the life of the on-board charger by it being used for  a lot less hours than it would be when run alone.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

If you want to know if you have the latest version of the Calex charger, look at the left side of the frame, near the charging port.  If you see a small black box attached to the cord between the port and the charger box then you have the new 1300 model charger.  One that will hopefully last longer than the previous version.

One more comment: My 2014 S left the factory in December 2013. The last time it had its BMS and MBB programming updated was in March 2014 when its Power Tank was installed by a Zero technician. The bike has been running perfectly ever since then, other than the original charger slowly degrading.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: DonTom on June 12, 2019, 01:09:25 PM
If you want to know if you have the latest version of the Calex charger, look at the left side of the frame, near the charging port.  If you see a small black box attached to the cord between the port and the charger box then you have the new 1300 model charger.  One that will hopefully last longer than the previous version.
I don't see it. Can you please  take a photo of it so I know what it looks like?

-Don-  Auburn, CA
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: Richard230 on June 12, 2019, 07:52:36 PM
If you want to know if you have the latest version of the Calex charger, look at the left side of the frame, near the charging port.  If you see a small black box attached to the cord between the port and the charger box then you have the new 1300 model charger.  One that will hopefully last longer than the previous version.
I don't see it. Can you please  take a photo of it so I know what it looks like?

-Don-  Auburn, CA

Here it is.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: DonTom on June 12, 2019, 08:16:10 PM
Here it is.
Thanks!

Unfortunately, I see nothing like that on my two Zeros, so I must have the older chargers.

-Don-  Auburn, CA
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: talon on June 13, 2019, 03:19:35 PM
FWIW I do not trust current/power readings given by Kill-A-Watts or the Zero app to be accurate even to one "count" of current. An industrial engineer I trust to be competent informally tested many Kill-A-Watt meters purchased from different sources and found a significant enough variance in reported power. Useful for rough estimates at best. My Zero app only displays current to 1 count, meaning at 116.4V there can be some aliasing error when the current is "flickering" between 2 numbers. 116.4V*[1, 2, 3]Amps=[116, 233, 349]Watts. It gets worse as the lift varies with the current waveform making the power vary even more rapidly.

I seem to be pretty lucky with my 2016 SR's BMS programming then.. it usually cuts off pretty high. I'd be perfectly happy with a charge to 115.5V though! If I'm charging fully, it's because I'm about to ride and I'm likely there to monitor the charge anyway. I really don't think 116.4V gets you much more range, especially not for the time it takes to carefully get there regardless of power available to charge with.

Where have you been getting the BMS voltage from? With SCv2.5 many of you may not know that the dash should show an approximate voltage while the bike is keyed on under "instantaneous wh/mi". I wouldn't leave the key on while charging (headlight DRL get hot even if you ride the switch in the middle and BMS is more reluctant to close?).I mention this because the dash, the apps, and the diginow terminal all seem to disagree by up to 0.2V-0.8V from what I get from the terminals with a calibrated Fluke 87V DMM. It could be lag or how the voltage is averaged/added cell by cell by the BMS.

I can't recall how accurately my diginows are at achieving requested voltage <116.2. I'll check that tomorrow. Speaking of SoC.. mine has intermittently been wacky at the top 20% and bottom 20% but mostly accurate when ridden and charged normally, from full. That being said I usually see my SoC increase perfectly in accordance with calculations until I get to ~88% and then it can start to jump as much as 18%. Try charging to a much lower voltage and see what it does. 116.2 versus 116.4 is really quite a small difference, output accuracy is only rated(diginow) to +-1% (a setting of 116.4 could be 117.6 or 115.2!!!) but is usually spot on for me.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: talon on June 17, 2019, 10:24:11 AM
I watched the ending of three charges set at 1000W, 1500W, and 3300W respectively. The charge at 1000W tapered down the current but not the "target power setting" in the terminal log (still displayed 1000W/1000W). The other at 1500W reset the target power and ramped back up, repeatedly, "ticking" past that weird threshold value. In both cases I set the target termination voltage to 116.4 and ended up with a rested 116.2V which is not bad! The third charge set at 3300W had the contactor open up at some point near the end and when checked revealed a battery charged and rested to 115.9V.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: DanielCoffey on June 17, 2019, 12:16:42 PM
Do you have a v2 or v2.5 controller on your DigiNow?

My v2.5 on my specific bike (DS 7.2 11kW) just ramps rapidly to zero the moment the target voltage is reached regardless of whether charging could have continued at a lower power level.

I will try a lower target voltage in case the bike's BMS is getting in the way and terminating the charge. Certainly at 1164/3300 it just trips and shuts down the second it exceeds 1164. At 1162/3300 it ramps rapidly to zero when 1162 is passed. I will see what its behaviour is on, say, 1155/3300. While charging to around 95% is great for the battery I have a need shortly to have a maximum charge for one occasion and would really like to be able to squeeze it in that once.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: togo on June 17, 2019, 10:53:21 PM
> ... An industrial engineer I trust to be competent informally tested many Kill-A-Watt meters purchased from different sources and found a significant enough variance in reported power. Useful for rough estimates at best. ...

Any word on the accuracy of a Belkin Wemo Insight?  That's what I've switched to, gave my Kill-A-Watts to friends and relatives to help them reduce costs.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: togo on June 17, 2019, 10:55:49 PM

> My v2.5 on my specific bike (DS 7.2 11kW) just ramps rapidly to zero the moment the target voltage is reached regardless of whether charging could have continued at a lower power level.

I think that fits the intended use case, rapid CC charging and then move on to the next station, not dawdle in the CV phase trying to get to a full 100% at lower charge rate.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: talon on June 18, 2019, 02:39:14 AM
Sorry Tony, he only tested the common Kill-A-Watts. If you are comfortable with a line splitter and hall effect DC_RMS current clamp you could reasonably surmise accuracy. He used a lab multimeter. I wish I remembered the exact numbers but Kill-A-Watts are still useful for "ballpark" readings. I wonder if any come with datasheets or accuracy claims?

Daniel, I have V2.5. Tony had a good point about not wasting time in the CV phase. A graph of complete charge logs would be useful to observe the range of voltages where the charge slows and watch in the time domain to see if the moment it switches from CC to CV is the optimum time to unplug and go to the next station or not. It might be different for each battery due to lift.. Basically I'm wondering if there is still a benefit to letting it charge in CV for a few minutes still. SoC_pct_gained/minute
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: DanielCoffey on June 18, 2019, 03:25:58 AM
It appears that under normal charging (parameters as installed by the dealer) my DigiNow will never charge my bike fully - it always tops out at 95% (due to the lift). While I agree that for normal commuting and general use this is not really an issue, for the occasions when I do need a full charge to undertake a journey with maximum range, the DigiNow gives me no way to do so, unlike the stock charger which did. That was the basis for my original query because the DigiNow was never advertised as "we'll just charge your bike a bit so you can top up and go". The ability to set a charge level of 100% on demand is a reasonable expectation, I feel.

As it happens there are actually other faults with my charger which the dealer actually noticed so my v2.5 is being handled under warranty anyway. I cannot fault the support from Brandon and the rest of the crew although I do know he is wanting to get things right before letting new controllers out of the workshop. "Some patience required" is the motto.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: kasmtk on June 18, 2019, 12:11:01 PM
I did not realise they did not give a 100% charge option
Referencing the Diginow chargers and being in a queue to purchase one with the v3 controller
I am not certain if the V3 will be a retrofit option for those with the v2.5?
I received an email stating that they are no longer working with Zero Motorcycles as their charging systems are improved, recommending the Energica M/C
I must now look elsewhere for a quick charging solution, perhaps the Elcon option with a Thunderstruck controller.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: DanielCoffey on June 18, 2019, 12:15:13 PM
As far as I know, the v3.0 is backwards compatible with the v2.5 as it is just the controller box itself that differs. It should be a drop in replacement according to my dealer.

Once I can get the replacement controller, it will make a very nice charging solution for my Zero.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: BrianTRice@gmail.com on June 19, 2019, 02:31:43 AM
The DigiNow units can definitely charge to 100% SoC (116.2VDC at-rest) if configured normally and operating right.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: talon on June 20, 2019, 01:22:00 AM
I received an email stating that they are no longer working with Zero Motorcycles as their charging systems are improved, recommending the Energica M/C
No longer "working with" Zero is open to interpretation. Did you paraphrase? I think this means they are no longer developing new products for Zero's and switched focus, but this can give people the impression that something bad has happened immediately. Maybe not taking new orders and fulfilling old? They do allow charging to 100% but I foresee as our cells age we might have to manually lower charging rates as V2.5 is written using healthy batteries IR lift tables and I doubt it adjusts. Or perhaps it will never exceed that lift and actively manages it during charge.

It appears that under normal charging (parameters as installed by the dealer) my DigiNow will never charge my bike fully - it always tops out at 95% (due to the lift).
For the record my bike sometimes stops changing it's display SoC between at 87-95%. I have seen it get stuck at 95% all the way to rested 116.2. After keying the bike on and off a couple times it updated to 100%. I think <20% and >80% the SoC display is even less accurate.

My bike under the same conditions will sometimes open the contactor early (but not as early as 115.5V rested) and sometimes trickle charge and compensate for lift probably split 50-50. Unplugging and plugging back in is the tried and true method to reaching 100% even with the calex onboard charger (one more close contactor charging session). My onboard charger only charged to 115.9 as well until replugged. This may be a compound issue between BMS/contactor scheme and your control unit, but it does seem abnormally low (115.5). I wonder if 14C battery temperature has anything to do with it (not particularly cold, but perhaps upper bound of not-charging-to-full rules?). Sorry I can only offer speculation. If you do manage to get to 115.9 or so.. realize even linearly estimated (which is not correct, it is actually even less at upper bound due to curve) Δ0.3V@116.0V is about 1% and simply riding or parking your bike in the sun for a bit can have the same effect to your capacity due to temperature increase.

Try and see if you hear the click of the bike's contactor opening first or see the control unit stay at 0W and not ramp back up first, or just have diginow look at it.
Title: Re: DigiNow end of charge - how slow does it go?
Post by: togo on June 20, 2019, 04:24:26 AM
> Sorry Tony, he only tested the common Kill-A-Watts. ...

Thanks for checking anyway!