ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: EDoggN on July 22, 2019, 06:01:04 AM
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Hello all,
Just wanted to share my experience with the SRF demo ride over weekend. My local dealer was nice enough to let me demo the bike for a couple days, and I am very impressed! The bike handles fantastic and the power/speed is addicting. The motor growls a little more than what I thought it would, but I hear it calms down after a few hundred miles. In general, here are my key take aways:
- The Mobile App is very nice. I wasn't able to use the cellular connection but I could connect over bluetooth just fine. I love how you can program the State of Charge target. This works very much like my Tesla.
- Charging at home with the included charger works great. If/when I purchase one, I will use a Tesla Wall Charger with an adapter. Zero's decision to use Level 2 charging was smart. Future owners of the Livewire will find out that Level 3 charging is great, but they are very scarce.
- Charging on the road was someone stressful. I took the bike out to a State Park where they have a level 2 charger on site. The whole ride there (approximately 45 miles) I was stressed that either the charger would be taken or it wouldn't work. Fortunately, when I pulled into the charging location the charger was available and worked fine. I don't remember how much power the charger was putting out, but it took about an hour or so to gain 35% charge (I ate breakfast while it charged so that worked out great). This took longer than I expected but that's not something that you can fault the bike for. (Note: It took about 50% of the battery to go 45 miles traveling between 45-60 on average. I am 6"3 230 lbs)
- I rode the bike thru the park and it was the most fun I have ever had on a bike!! The relative silence as I rode thru a dense forest was surreal.
- When I first got the bike, I was exploring all the menus and tried to change the time/clock. During this process the computer locked up (froze) and I could not turn the computer off. With some help from this forum, I disconnected the battery and the bike re-booted. I assume that the firmware had not been updated since the cellular connection wasn't setup. I think I started the cellular, but I don't see how to force an update. Im not sure if it ever updated on its own.
- I would have liked to see the computer screen control media (from your phone). I listen to music thru my helmet and it would have been great to control the music via the screen. Seems like this would be a no-brainer. It would also be great to have a built in GPS.
All in all, the bike is fantastic! The only reservation I have is the charging network. This will get better over time, but it is definitely a concern in the short term (depending on where you live).
Thanks for all your help on this forum! Its been a great place to learn about Zero bikes.
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Except for a few situations, where you know in advance that you'll be stuck by a charging station for hours, it doesn't really make sense to ride ebikes places you need to charge them. We have gas motorcycles for long rides.
Electric makes sense for rides that take 1 full battery or less.
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Dang, I agree with flat tire again.
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I guess your probably right....but I would have regretted not running it thru its paces.
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it doesn't really make sense to ride ebikes places you need to charge them. des.
Disagree. While still a novice on my Zero I find it an adventure to plan out routes to test my limits. I started doing this some time back in my '11 Leaf, back when chargers were more scarce here in Texas. Planning (including backup plan), burning electrons very efficiently, and going places I usually travel past when burning fossils, it all adds to a sense of adventure, making an event out of a ride. No, not talking about cross country touring, but certainly 2 or 3 charging hops will fit into a nice day's ride with the 6kW charger on the premium version.
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I'm with Bill on this one. I'm only getting interested in motorcycles due to Zero's progress with electric bikes (replacing mtn biking). I won't have a second bike. The charging landscape remains a challenge, especially for "get-away" rides (though the Parks are starting to get onboard). But like Bill, I've find the challenge of managing limited range with my I-Pace as an acceptable feature. For bikes, I regard the current range challenge as an equal swap with the component/maintenance/reliability factors ICE bikes might present.
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I am actively ramping up for a charging journey.
I have no clue how well it will work, but isn't that part of the adventure?
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Dang, I agree with flat tire again.
I don't. I like to take the breaks, get on line for a while and such. E-bikes are not for those in a big rush. E-bike teach us patience, IMO. Such as when I am in a restaurant and the food comes very late. I think, great, I get a better charge for the rest of my trip.
I have also leaned to drive slow, take the slower shorter routes. I stay off the freeways as much as possible. In fact, my rule is if you're in a big hurry on an e-bike for a long ride, then ride very SLOW! You save more time by riding slow and not needing to recharge as often.
Bottom line is that I have put more miles on my two electric bikes since I have owned them than I have on my seven ICE bikes combined. But they too have a purpose. It's best, for now, to own both. This will change greatly, IMO, if we had more charge stations out in the middle of nowhere. That's more important than range. A small battery gives as many miles per time charge as a larger battery. So with a small battery, wait half as long, but twice as many stops. Comes out near the same.
So IMO, the biggest problem with electric motorcycles is not enough charging stations outside of the larger cities. But that is improving, especially with all the charge stations coming to Wal-Marts.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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This is really poor logic, cuz you could do the same thing (long slow rides with lots of stops) on a bike that doesn't need to be constantly recharged. And that bike would obviously be superior.
and lol @ the "unreliable ice bike" thing. Unfortunately our Zeros are not that reliable yet, and gas bikes of comparable performance are basically DEAD reliable (buy Japanese).
It's one thing if a long charge time doesn't get in the way of your unusual lifestyle. But don't confuse that with it being a good thing.
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I'm seriously contemplating buying the 6kw charge tank for my 2017 dsr, so I can at least make some fun 1-2 day trips. The only reason I haven't bought one yet is the $2300 price tag. But I believe it makes more sense than the $2800 powertank which will only get you another 30 miles if you're lucky. At this point, I have to convince myself it's not about saving money anymore, but about the adventure. As a daily commuter though, you cant beat the Zero.
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This is really poor logic, cuz you could do the same thing (long slow rides with lots of stops) on a bike that doesn't need to be constantly recharged. And that bike would obviously be superior.
and lol @ the "unreliable ice bike" thing. Unfortunately our Zeros are not that reliable yet, and gas bikes of comparable performance are basically DEAD reliable (buy Japanese).
It's one thing if a long charge time doesn't get in the way of your unusual lifestyle. But don't confuse that with it being a good thing.
As you can see, I own plenty of ICE bikes. I enjoy the e-bikes the most of all. Logic has very little to do with it.
And even if If it did, you could go fix your flat tire as you're recharging!
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I'm seriously contemplating buying the 6kw charge tank for my 2017 dsr, so I can at least make some fun 1-2 day trips. The only reason I haven't bought one yet is the $2300 price tag. But I believe it makes more sense than the $2800 powertank which will only get you another 30 miles if you're lucky. At this point, I have to convince myself it's not about saving money anymore, but about the adventure. As a daily commuter though, you cant beat the Zero.
I charge my SR with Powertank at 6.3 KW while on the road. As much as 8 KW when home.
See here. My reply number 8. (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9066.msg79837#msg79837)
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Did someone mention reliable ICE motorcycles? Here is the lineup of motorcycles waiting to be repaired at SF Moto, San Francisco's Zero (and various other brands) dealer. This number of bikes waiting to be worked on never seems to shrink whenever I visit the shop. ;)
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If there are lots of chargers towards your destination, why not? My ride to down town KC is nearly 50% of my battery capacity, however if I could even charge even at .5c and get 50% in one hour, riding down, having lunch and doing some exploring all of a sudden becomes a possibility. There are a ton of chargers down there.
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Um, a picture full of tailpipes is not good evidence of the unreliability of electric bikes.
That said, these forums are really very helpful, and I definitely appreciate the feedback found here. Fortunately, I haven't found a bunch of Zero owners bemoaning how terrible their bikes are.
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The Premium 6kWh plus the additional 6kWh chargers should make it a reasonable 'break to charge and continue riding' for a day's worth of riding. I rode a Premium with the 6 kWh charger this weekend. I had enough charge gained from a single L2 charger in Denver for an hour to take me from Colorado Springs to Denver and back- just parking the bike in a garage.
Level 2 seems to be enough and I agree with your Livewire L3 availability, but for people to widely use E bikes past early adopters, we need more faster charging solutions.
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I find it an adventure to plan out routes to test my limits.
I did at first on my Zero's as well, but eventually I found myself frustrated by doing this. For me, bikes are a hobby, something to do during periods of free time. So if I get a window of opportunity to ride, I don't always want those kinds of limits imposed on it. I want to be able to ride as fast as I want, for as much time as I have. I don't have to have to go home early or stop for hours of charging in the middle of it.
I believe it makes more sense than the $2800 powertank which will only get you another 30 miles if you're lucky.
I really regret doing the Power Tank. It changes the dynamics of the DSR enough that I no longer enjoyed it. Not worth the extra miles, imo.
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I really regret doing the Power Tank. It changes the dynamics of the DSR enough that I no longer enjoyed it. Not worth the extra miles, imo.
I wonder if the Power Tank for the SR/F, when it comes out, will affect it as much.
Is there something the engineers/designers can do to eliminate or reduce the degradation?
What was it? The extra weight higher up on the machine?
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really regret doing the Power Tank. It changes the dynamics of the DSR enough that I no longer enjoyed it. Not worth the extra miles, imo.
It's worth the extra 20 miles if it saves you from walking it!
But I understand what you mean.
I really enjoy the lightness of my DS ZF 6.5. I don't want it to have more battery than that. No tank of any type. But for my street electric bike, the SR, I like having the power tank, I find the 25% extra range often to be handy.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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What was it? The extra weight higher up on the machine?
Part of what I like about the Zero's is how light, balanced and nimble they feel compared to an equivalent powered ICE bike. Adding the Power Tank reduced that. Getting my DSR+PT off its side stand took as much effort as with my 650 lb touring bike. Negotiating at parking lots speeds required some really heavy-footed dabbing if it started tipping over.
Once at speed, it wasn't as noticeable. You could feel it in fast corners kind of wanting to fall in on you, but was controllable. The other big issue was degraded performance. It slowed the acceleration of the bike down enough to notice it. Based on what others have said, the placement of the PT might have contributed some of my overheating issues, not sure on that.
The SR/F is already around 500 lbs. if I remember correctly. Adding a 45 lb PT to it would push it up in 545 lb range. That's pretty heavy for a street fighter type bike. My Speed Triple is about 100 lbs. lighter than that and its not one of the lighter ones in the class.
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Adding 10% to the bike's weight is bad enough but the power tank sits in the worst possible place. Adding that much mass as that high above the road will make the bike feel heavy and noticeably slow the SR/F's nimble handling.
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I still prefer the power tank option over the fast charge option just because I use my bike for local travel, visiting relatives, shopping, and other utility purposes. I ride during the day within the limits of my bike's range and recharge at night. If Zero ever comes up with a 20kWh battery pack I would likely replace my 2018 S with the new version. Until then I will stick with my S.
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I still prefer the power tank option over the fast charge option just because I use my bike for local travel, visiting relatives, shopping, and other utility purposes. I ride during the day within the limits of my bike's range and recharge at night. If Zero ever comes up with a 20kWh battery pack I would likely replace my 2018 S with the new version. Until then I will stick with my S.
What I do works out well for me also. Have both, when needed. I charged up my SR with Pwr tank at 8KW last night. On most rides, like today, I carry no charge stuff at all. But I can carry 6 KW of charging as needed, but charge at 8KW at home. Tomorrow I will carry the 6KW worth, if I decide to go back to Reno. If I had the ten % extra range of your bike, I probably would not even stop to charge on the way back. I usually have 50% of my charge left at the half way point which is very near the summit. It's mostly all down hill from there. But I get range anxiety, so I recharge once each way. Either at Truckee or Cisco Grove. But another ten percent and I wouldn't even get range anxiety. It's exactly 99 miles door to door, but a lot of it is uphill on I-80.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I too am concerned about the weight/location of the "power tank" on the SR/F. I really would like the extra range as it would put me in a sweet spot for my normal riding needs. However, I don't want to put one in if it destroys the balance and handling of the bike. I recently test rode an Energica Ego which weighs in at 621 pounds with a very high CG. I have ridden heavier motorcycles but none with the high CG and low clip-on bars that gave you no leverage when trying to get the bike upright from the kickstand. It was almost impossible to get it upright and get in the saddle without dropping it. Other than the fact that it was pretty much undriveable (for me) at low speeds and tight corners, it wasn't a bad bike once it got rolling down the highway.
On the other hand I enjoyed the handling of the SR/F even though it weighs in at 500 pounds (premier). I am a little nervous about adding 45 pounds at the level of the "tank" as it could start to make the SR/F feel like the Energica. I am going to try and demo the SR/F again with 45 pounds of weight added to the cubby in the tank to simulate the power tank installation. Then I can decide if an additional $2900 is worth it or spending some additional time to make up the extra mileage on a trip would make better sense.
I currently own and drive a 460 pound Victory Empulse TT. It's a smaller bike and comfortable for me to operate. I am looking for a replacement for the Empulse so when it breaks down and can't be repaired, I can have an electric motorcycle to drive. I have got a Boardwalk red premier on order so I still have time to decide if the power tank is in the cards. The power tank isn't even available yet but inquiring minds want to know.
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The Premium 6kWh plus the additional 6kWh chargers should make it a reasonable 'break to charge and continue riding' for a day's worth of riding.
You have 12kW J stations in your area?
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The Premium 6kWh plus the additional 6kWh chargers should make it a reasonable 'break to charge and continue riding' for a day's worth of riding.
You have 12kW J stations in your area?
I wondered if the charge tank would be of any use in the US. I guess 14-50 plugs at RV campgrounds would work but I've never come across a Level 2 charge station rated above 7.2kW. You'd still have to find and carry a 12kW capable ESVE.
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The Premium 6kWh plus the additional 6kWh chargers should make it a reasonable 'break to charge and continue riding' for a day's worth of riding.
You have 12kW J stations in your area?
(https://imgur.com/J1ueuCj)
Not many but there are a couple in Denver and Boulder.
https://imgur.com/a/fpt18oO
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You have 12kW J stations in your area?
Even if not, You know you will always be charging at the very max the charge station can handle, yet will not overload. I hear the SR/F did this the correct way and it communicates with the charge station to set the max current it's capable of.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Not many but there are a couple in Denver and Boulder.
https://imgur.com/a/fpt18oO
I poked around on ChargeHub since that's where it appears that picture originated. I have searched Colorado for a J1772 station capable of delivering over 10.5kW and found 3 entries. 1 is under construction. 1 claims 606kW which I presume to be a typo and is the standard 6.6. One claims 17kW which is a bizarre number that I, frankly, don't believe.
edit- Sun Country Highway, in the picture you linked, is an EV route in Canada. They don't have stations in Colorado.
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For me it doesn't matter if the PT is a lot of weight in the worst spot -it's necessary.
Without the PT I can't make my round-trip commute to work reliably. With the PT I can. The SR/F can't handle my commute.
When it comes to the SR/F though, with the bike already being much heavier I think an upgraded main battery is more important at this point. We need to move past 14.4kwh for the main battery. Lightning is supposedly squeezing 20kwh into their bike, Zero should be doing the same for 2020. If there was a 20kwh SR/F I'd most likely be riding one home.
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When it comes to the SR/F though, with the bike already being much heavier I think an upgraded main battery is more important at this point. We need to move past 14.4kwh for the main battery. Lightning is supposedly squeezing 20kwh into their bike, Zero should be doing the same for 2020. If there was a 20kwh SR/F I'd most likely be riding one home.
Yeah, I wonder where the weight is. The carbon comes in around 485lbs with a 20kW battery. Either the carbon fiber really does a ton of weight reduction or they are really skimping elsewhere. The SR/F doesn't seem to have to much for excess weight.
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Or the Strike's numbers are made up because it doesn't exist.
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Or the Strike's numbers are made up because it doesn't exist.
Yeah I'm wondering where even a prototype is. I've been checking for any summer 2019 updates (since they were set to release about now) and can't find anything yet. Apparently they are taking deposits or orders though, so I'm curious as to what exactly is happening.
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There's an Open House in 2 days about an hour and a half north of me. From what I can glean they will be scheduling demo rides at this event. That is to say there will not be demo rides at the event, but this event will be used to schedule demos in the future.
I saw the Strike in person on July 4th at Corbin's. No one rode it; they pushed it around to maneuver it. I spoke with a Lightning employee who wandered over to our booth. Very nice guy. I asked him the operating voltage of the Strike, and he said, "About 150V"
"So how does that work with CCS needing 200V minimum?" I asked
"Uh. You'd have to ask Richard" he stuttered and hurried off.
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... That is to say there will not be demo rides at the event, but this event will be used to schedule demos in the future. ...
After paying a deposit I'm sure. This company just doesn't smell right. quite some time back I tried to order an LS218 and couldn't get them to get back to me. Then they came out with these specs that just don't add up (see weight vs. battery). Remember Zero's power tank adds less than 3kWhr but weighs 45 pounds.
(https://i.imgur.com/JZxKIEI.jpg)
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So the LS218 is only vaporcycleware?
Specs sound a bit too good, IMO also.
-Don- Reno, NV
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You're both correct. That chart claims that for 30 lbs more you can get:
+ 10kWh battery capacity
+ 3.3kW AC charging
+ CCS charge controller on a bike that operates at 150V but needs minimum 200V to use CCS
Anyone going to the Open House?
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Here are the specs for the LS-218 as of 2014.
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The LS218 definitely exists. It ran Pikes Peak and you can buy one yourself if you're rich. It's also an extremely dangerous and hard to ride bike. The only thing it has in common with a SR/F is 2 wheels and electrons.
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Anyone going to the Open House?
I wish I could. Would be interesting to try to get a squint at some components, see what grade stuff they are using, see if it looks realistic.
FWIW, I hope what they say is true. I hope they deliver bikes. I just can't have confidence in that with what we've seen so far.
What I do know is that false promises undermine the whole industry.
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After paying a deposit I'm sure. This company just doesn't smell right. quite some time back I tried to order an LS218 and couldn't get them to get back to me. Then they came out with these specs that just don't add up (see weight vs. battery).
How hard did you inquire about the bike? Emails get lost, phone calls can be missed and not returned, and most people who inquire probably are not serious. It's true that the company's behavior doesn't look great.
Also re the battery weight my understanding was that the higher capacity models also had further weight reduction from lighter components. Is that not true?
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...higher capacity models also had further weight reduction from lighter components. Is that not true?
The "Carbon" version has carbon fiber bodywork and maybe some other bits. Custom carbon parts engineered and manufactured to actually save weight, not just looks, cost as much as they are asking for the whole bike. That's OK since a 20kWhr battery, 90kW motor, and high power controller also cost as much as they are asking for the whole bike. Since weight savings with carbon are a low benefit to cost option it only makes sense once you have done everything else. The numbers on these things just don't add up.
I watched the same thing happen with the Elio Motors fiasco. Somebody got some quotes, looked up some parts in a wholesale catalog, and decided they could build a car for cheap. I'm speculating here, giving the benefit of the doubt. I think most people start out wanting to be honest and do something great. Details just tend to get in the way. Engineering is hard. Manufacturing is hard.
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I calculate ~$7K for battery and motor + controller in volume assuming they use canned cells.
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I calculate ~$7K for battery and motor + controller in volume assuming they use canned cells.
Now plus Ohlins, Brembo, carbon fiber, swingarm, frame, fairings... R&D, staff and two facilities paid for, assembled and QA tested ready to warranty made in small quantities- that's a hell of a deal at $20k. Almost like a backwards early adoption (I dream for XRP) cost.
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I want to believe!!! ;D
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I want to believe!!! ;D
Me too, long term manufacturing costs should be less than fine tolerance ICE bikes. Just seems it'll take some time and scale to get there.
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I calculate ~$7K for battery and motor + controller in volume assuming they use canned cells.
Now plus Ohlins, Brembo, carbon fiber, swingarm, frame, fairings... R&D, staff and two facilities paid for, assembled and QA tested ready to warranty made in small quantities- that's a hell of a deal at $20k. Almost like a backwards early adoption (I dream for XRP) cost.
In the only article that gave any details, around the time of the original PR, Lightning said they're using pouch cells -- and those don't have standard designs.
Homologation also costs a lot of money.
They claimed in at least one interview/article that they can offer the low price for the Strike due to integrated manufacturing in China... But they also announced buying a manufacturing/assembly facility in San Jose, so which is it?
Integrated manufacturing only makes sense for high volumes... But the Strike doesn't have ABS, so they won't be allowed to sell it in Europe, which is half the market.
And they haven't said anything about how they'll handle sales / demo rides / service / warranty work / service training.
And there have been no sightings of prototypes testing anywhere -- surely, as they were supposed to start deliveries this month, they'd have had multiple near-production bikes undergoing stress, reliability and safety tests?
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And I keep wondering how the recent U.S. tariffs of 25% on products imported from China will impact the Strike's price. ???
Of course I have wondered the same thing about the components that Zero imports from Chinese suppliers and so far the tariffs don't seem to have any noticeable impact on the price of the SR/F. ???
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... so far the tariffs don't seem to have any noticeable impact on the price of the SR/F. ???
Tariffs on Chinese components and raw material started over a year ago on everything from raw metal to the plastics used for wire insulation to fairings, paint coloring agents, connectors, controllers... hundreds of items. These taxes have mostly been absorbed by manufacturers and their suppliers, but prices to consumers are rising. The earlier 10-15% tariffs are certainly already priced in to the SR/F price everyone complains about and are likely a huge deal for Lightning.
The public are only noticing tariffs now because until now tariff tax was only added to components used by American manufacturers, not consumer goods. Everybody complains about the price of the SR/F and every Chinese sourced component on it had a 10-15% tax paid by Zero. This is all before the 25% tariff.
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... so far the tariffs don't seem to have any noticeable impact on the price of the SR/F. ???
Tariffs on Chinese components and raw material started over a year ago on everything from raw metal to the plastics used for wire insulation to fairings, paint coloring agents, connectors, controllers... hundreds of items. These taxes have mostly been absorbed by manufacturers and their suppliers, but prices to consumers are rising. The earlier 10-15% tariffs are certainly already priced in to the SR/F price everyone complains about and are likely a huge deal for Lightning.
The public are only noticing tariffs now because until now tariff tax was only added to components used by American manufacturers, not consumer goods. Everybody complains about the price of the SR/F and every Chinese sourced component on it had a 10-15% tax paid by Zero. This is all before the 25% tariff.
Ouch! :(
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Ouch! :(
Yep. Tariffs are a tax paid by us.
"Polaris CEO Scott Wine has been among the more vocal critics of the back and forth retaliatory tariffs between the United States and other countries and he returned to that theme in the conference call on the company's results.
'Tariffs remain the single largest contributor to our lower earnings, but the aggressive and innovative mitigation efforts we are implementing reduced our impact,' Wine said.
From Revzilla's Common Tread blog
https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/sales-keep-declining-for-us-motorcycle-manufacturers-but-turnaround-plans-are-in-place?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=07/27/2019_CT&utm_term=Common%20Tread%20%7C%20Combined (https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/sales-keep-declining-for-us-motorcycle-manufacturers-but-turnaround-plans-are-in-place?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=07/27/2019_CT&utm_term=Common%20Tread%20%7C%20Combined)
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Ouch! :(
Yep. Tariffs are a tax paid by us.
"Polaris CEO Scott Wine has been among the more vocal critics of the back and forth retaliatory tariffs between the United States and other countries and he returned to that theme in the conference call on the company's results.
'Tariffs remain the single largest contributor to our lower earnings, but the aggressive and innovative mitigation efforts we are implementing reduced our impact,' Wine said.
From Revzilla's Common Tread blog
https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/sales-keep-declining-for-us-motorcycle-manufacturers-but-turnaround-plans-are-in-place?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=07/27/2019_CT&utm_term=Common%20Tread%20%7C%20Combined (https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/sales-keep-declining-for-us-motorcycle-manufacturers-but-turnaround-plans-are-in-place?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=07/27/2019_CT&utm_term=Common%20Tread%20%7C%20Combined)
It makes you wonder what the long-term impacts the tariffs will have on the industries of the countries affected by them? I imagine nothing good. :( There are going to be winners and losers in this game and my guess is that countries that do not have tariffs are going to end up being the winners. ???
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Ouch! :(
Yep. Tariffs are a tax paid by us.
"Polaris CEO Scott Wine has been among the more vocal critics of the back and forth retaliatory tariffs between the United States and other countries and he returned to that theme in the conference call on the company's results.
'Tariffs remain the single largest contributor to our lower earnings, but the aggressive and innovative mitigation efforts we are implementing reduced our impact,' Wine said.
From Revzilla's Common Tread blog
https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/sales-keep-declining-for-us-motorcycle-manufacturers-but-turnaround-plans-are-in-place?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=07/27/2019_CT&utm_term=Common%20Tread%20%7C%20Combined (https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/sales-keep-declining-for-us-motorcycle-manufacturers-but-turnaround-plans-are-in-place?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=07/27/2019_CT&utm_term=Common%20Tread%20%7C%20Combined)
It makes you wonder what the long-term impacts the tariffs will have on the industries of the countries affected by them? I imagine nothing good. :( There are going to be winners and losers in this game and my guess is that countries that do not have tariffs are going to end up being the winners. ???
There are already impacts. I know of people at companies in the US that buy raw steel. There have been several dozen new hires among their suppliers... but already far more than that layoffs, because US-made steel hasn't been the majority for quite a while, and there are a lot more companies using it locally to make components.
Countries like Mexico & Vietnam have already benefited quite a bit, exactly the result predicted in advance by mainstream economists (Trump doesn't have any respected ones working for him).
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-war-vietnam-mexico-tariffs-gain-us-china-lose-2019-5 (https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-war-vietnam-mexico-tariffs-gain-us-china-lose-2019-5)
https://www.ft.com/content/4bce1f3c-8dda-11e9-a1c1-51bf8f989972 (https://www.ft.com/content/4bce1f3c-8dda-11e9-a1c1-51bf8f989972)
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There are already impacts.
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Quite true. Costs have been going up on raw materials and parts for over a year. The automotive industry, both OEMs and supply chain, has been hit especially hard. Notice that Ford is discontinuing most of its cars. Ford and GM having layoffs and plant closures. I got out of the industry last year in no small part because of the impending financial difficulties that were even then already baked in to the supply stream. Shortsighted trade policies are harming the industries they claim to be helping. Harley Davidson is in a particularly tough spot thanks to retaliatory tariffs in Europe.
Absolutely nobody is going to invest a half billion dollars to build a new large steel plant based on trade policy that can change with a tweet. It is small businesses like Zero and Lightning (and my old business) that are most at risk.