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[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

as for the rest of the political stuff above.. eh, thats why I hate the bullshit.

this however isnt political:

What's a matta dude, don't like women who are smarter than you?

I love them. My wife is the smartest woman I ever met. Its one of the reasons I married her.
Shes also absolutely trustworthy, compassionate but tough, and has the kind of integrity to do the right thing that I view as an inspiration.

To imply that the gender of a candidate has anything to do with my opinion of them is an insult directly to me. I'll await your apology.

Plenty of people who are misogynistic in the workplace or public sphere love their wives and daughters. Just like plenty of racist people have friends of color.

You deserve no apology. Welcome to the internet where no one knows anything about you, and you can lie to claim anything you want.

[Manzanita]

Let me ask the question a bit differently. Assume I am making a turn, I am upright, not shifting my weight to the inside of the turn. Still, that is not as fast/sharp, so my pegs will not scrape. However, the road is slippery just enough, say it is wet, so that the bike will slide from under me. Basically, I am taking the turn at a speed just a notch above the traction limit.

Now, assume I took the same turn in the same conditions, at the same speed, but this time I have shifted my weight inside the turn, so the bike is leaning less. Will I have more traction, potentially not sliding out? 

Here is where I'm going with this. Motorcycle tires are designed so that they have good traction upright as well as when leaned. Some actually have more traction when leaned vs. when upright. Assuming I have plenty of clearance for my pegs, is there any advantage in shifting my weight to minimize the lean angle? Specifically for the Zero OEM tires in street riding conditions.

I am definitely into maximizing my body lean and keeping the bike upright as possible in turns. The reasoning comes from books/videos like twist of the wrist II: you want to maximize the time your bike is straight up and down, as when your bike is in this position, you have maximum braking and acceleration ability. You cannot brake as much with the bike leaned over as you can with your bike upright.

Think this is a racer technique that doesn't apply to street-speed turns? I think it is a basic street safety technique. Anytime you are riding around a turn and you suddenly come to a stopped deer, stopped car, fallen tree, left turning car, etc you will minimize your stopping distance by having your bike upright and your body leaned over. In other words, the person sitting upright and having the bike leaned over has to bring their bike to the upright position before applying maximum braking. It may only take an extra second, but one second at 40 mph is 58 feet. Half a second delay is 28 feet. Even riding at 20mph and giving it only a half second advantage gives you 14 feet of additional stopping distance. Does 14 feet matter when you're about to run into a solid object?

I have a friend who thinks anyone who leans off is a "poser". I'm just trying to maximize safety, as I ride through many blind turns on my daily commute, and just in the past year I have had stopped cars and gravel and squirrels around blind turns, all handled with no drama. Also, riding this way now makes me think the entire bike is more stable--I can adjust my line in turns easier to avoid gravel and potholes if I'm down lower and have the bike more upright. I can literally weave the bike to the inside and outside edges of the road while in a turn with little effort, I don't think that is as easy if you're straight up and down and leaning the bike.

[Manzanita]

Another example: would you rather hit a patch of gravel in the middle of a turn with the bike leaned over, or the bike upright? I can tell you from experience, it does make a difference.

Also note that I am talking about leaning your upper body into a turn, not sliding your butt around in the seat. You can get plenty of body lean without moving your butt, just think of putting the weight on the inside of the turn.

Also, just the idea that you'd do this to drag knee... it's actually the opposite. I'm sort of mid-pack in intermediate track day groups and I can pace with guys that drag knee but I have never done it. Why can they drag knee and I can't? It's actually because they lean the bike over and get it more sideways to get their knee down. They also slide their lower body down while leaning their upper body towards the bike. So in other words, they are using bad technique to drag knee. The point is that I am able to go as fast as them but also have the bike more upright in turns, and they will have to unlearn their bad positioning if they want to go faster. You're actually trying to maximize the upright positioning of the bike. In the same manner, dragging pegs on the street is not something to be proud of, it could be an indication that you need to lean off more (or just that you're on a bike with very little peg clearance).

[DPsSRnSD]

I'm going to chime in on this and give some very bad advice that no one should follow. First off, the bike turns from either turning the front wheel or by leaning over. Shifting your body weight is just a way to encourage the bike to lean. (You can also butt-steer, but I use that as just a way to fine tune the turn.) The fastest riders in the world lean the bike over at extreme angles and get it there by almost falling off the bike. I don't like to do that. I had a lot of fun and control mountain biking by tossing the bike back and forth underneath me while I stayed mostly on top, pressing moderately on the inside handle bar and hard on the outside pedal. (I didn't add weight to the bike, water and tools were on my back, and my tires were smooth on top and aggressive on the sides.) I like to ride my SR the same way. Staying on top, I feel like I can get the bike back up for aggressive braking when needed by pushing hard on the outside peg. To get the bike to lean, I get low on the plastic so I can extend my inner arm and point my knee out to give the bike room to lean while counterbalancing with the outside peg.

[MrDude_1]

Another example: would you rather hit a patch of gravel in the middle of a turn with the bike leaned over, or the bike upright? I can tell you from experience, it does make a difference.

Also note that I am talking about leaning your upper body into a turn, not sliding your butt around in the seat. You can get plenty of body lean without moving your butt, just think of putting the weight on the inside of the turn.

Also, just the idea that you'd do this to drag knee... it's actually the opposite. I'm sort of mid-pack in intermediate track day groups and I can pace with guys that drag knee but I have never done it. Why can they drag knee and I can't? It's actually because they lean the bike over and get it more sideways to get their knee down. They also slide their lower body down while leaning their upper body towards the bike. So in other words, they are using bad technique to drag knee. The point is that I am able to go as fast as them but also have the bike more upright in turns, and they will have to unlearn their bad positioning if they want to go faster. You're actually trying to maximize the upright positioning of the bike. In the same manner, dragging pegs on the street is not something to be proud of, it could be an indication that you need to lean off more (or just that you're on a bike with very little peg clearance).

bingo.. but that last little bit scares is why most cruisers scare the crap out of me.. if its the peg, fine, they fold. but touching a hardpart makes the bike lever up, unloads the tires, and down you go.
Making one ironic truth... the less performance oriented your bike is, the more important body position becomes in an emergency situation.

[Manzanita]

First off, the bike turns from either turning the front wheel or by leaning over.

Leaning over is not a major factor in turning the bike. You can't turn a bike around a corner without steering input. You in fact prove that leaning does not cause the bike to turn since you are going through turns while staying upright (riding crossed-up).

Shifting your body weight is just a way to encourage the bike to lean.

It's exactly opposite. Shifting your weight to the inside is the way you prevent your bike from leaning. The MotoGP and elite racers are not leaning their bikes down to turn. They are just moving so fast that they need to lean over that far. They are trying to keep their bikes upright to keep their tires on the ground, which is why any racer who tries to ride crossed-up as you do will never reach the speeds needed to be competitive. If they had their bodies above their bikes, they'd scrap hard parts and lift their tires off the ground.

How long have you been riding motorcycles? Is the zero your first motorcycle?

There are situations where you may get more control riding crossed-up, but that is just confusing the issue. It's like telling a beginner to brake in the middle of corners. Yes, you can do it, but it's pretty well-accepted that it is generally bad technique that often leads to accidents. Likewise, leaning into turns with your upper body to keep your bike more upright is considered better technique for the reasons I go into above.

[mrwilsn]

Shifting your body weight is just a way to encourage the bike to lean. (You can also butt-steer, but I use that as just a way to fine tune the turn.) The fastest riders in the world lean the bike over at extreme angles and get it there by almost falling off the bike. I don't like to do that.

This is not exactly true.  The bike turns because of the sum of the forces acting on its motion.  The spinning wheel wants to go straight and stand up.  Shifting the weight distribution of the bike/rider changes the sum of those forces and causes the bike to turn.  Leaning the bike is one way of changing the weight distribution.  Shifting rider weight is another.  Shifting rider weight allows you achieve the desired change in weight distribution while using less bike lean which means your tire has more contact with the road and you have more margin to add bike lean.

On the street I don't move my butt around much.  I mostly shift my upper body weight and I try to do it in the direction I want the bike to go...slightly forward and to the desired direction of turn.  I use the same mental image for counter steer.  I push the bar end in the direction I want the bike to go...again... slightly forward and to the desired direction of turn.  As a result counter steer and counter weight are working together in the turn.

[giacomo]

I would take a look to this animated picture at www.leanometer.com/en/comcept.html. It is pretty clear the effect of the rider to the system...

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[mrwilsn]

I would take a look to this animated picture at www.leanometer.com/en/comcept.html. It is pretty clear the effect of the rider to the system...

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Cool site but your link doesn't work...concept, not comcept...lol

Here is a working link...check the 'lean angle and cornering force' tab...move your mouse over the picture and you see the difference rider position makes.

http://leanometer.com/en/concept.html

[giacomo]

I would take a look to this animated picture at www.leanometer.com/en/comcept.html. It is pretty clear the effect of the rider to the system...

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

Cool site but your link doesn't work...concept, not comcept...lol

Here is a working link...check the 'lean angle and cornering force' tab...move your mouse over the picture and you see the difference rider position makes.

http://leanometer.com/en/concept.html

thanks for the correction.
Giacomo

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[MrDude_1]

The fastest riders in the world lean the bike over at extreme angles and get it there by almost falling off the bike.

actually, they get there by countersteering with good upper body strength. You can get there with your butt on the seat and your legs on the tank... the catch being.. you would be going much slower.

[DPsSRnSD]

I'm not saying that you can't go faster by getting your butt low. I don't like to do it because I find I can toss the bike back and forth faster if I'm on top enough to put weight on the outside peg, like a skier. Racers obviously don't do this because their feet aren't even on the peg sometimes. Maybe my body can't move my butt fast enough to get the bike upright again even with less lean angle to start with. And maybe groups would drop me because I'm riding too slow because I have the bike leaned over too far and need more time for road hazards.

I'm confused by the talk of changes in the size of the contact patch. I see this discussed in a lot of places, but I'm not sure it's all correct. The contact patch is determined by the pressure in the tires, the weight on the tires, and compliant or stiff tire construction. If the side walls are sufficiently compliant, the tire patch changes from shifting weight fore and aft and by aerodynamic forces. Also, in a turn with sufficient banking you should be able to weigh the bike down with speed. I could see how shifting body weight side to side could change the shape of the contact patch, and thus affect direction, but not so much the size of patch.

Which brings me back to tire lean. Maybe this example is oversimplified but we've all been shown the styrofoam cup turning because of its shape. When you get a bike tire on its side it can change direction. If the bike geometry allows it, and you're going fast enough to not fall over, you don't even have to turn the front tire in the direction of the turn. This is easy to demonstrate with a roadie style bicycle. You can grab the bike by the stem and change direction just by leaning the bike over.

[DPsSRnSD]

The fastest riders in the world lean the bike over at extreme angles and get it there by almost falling off the bike.

actually, they get there by countersteering with good upper body strength. You can get there with your butt on the seat and your legs on the tank... the catch being.. you would be going much slower.

I'll have to take your word for that since I don't know any racers and have never been in a motorcycle race. They don't seem that strong in the upper body compared to athletes in some other sports though, and it isn't hard for me to countersteer.

[MrDude_1]

The fastest riders in the world lean the bike over at extreme angles and get it there by almost falling off the bike.

actually, they get there by countersteering with good upper body strength. You can get there with your butt on the seat and your legs on the tank... the catch being.. you would be going much slower.

I'll have to take your word for that since I don't know any racers and have never been in a motorcycle race. They don't seem that strong in the upper body compared to athletes in some other sports though, and it isn't hard for me to countersteer.

that actually should say "good old fashioned upper body strength"... but since it was brought up.. for their size they do have strong shoulders. those guys are tougher than they look.
counter-steering shouldnt be hard, especially at street legal speeds on a modern motorcycle.

[mrwilsn]

I'm confused by the talk of changes in the size of the contact patch. I see this discussed in a lot of places, but I'm not sure it's all correct. The contact patch is determined by the pressure in the tires, the weight on the tires, and compliant or stiff tire construction. If the side walls are sufficiently compliant, the tire patch changes from shifting weight fore and aft and by aerodynamic forces. Also, in a turn with sufficient banking you should be able to weigh the bike down with speed. I could see how shifting body weight side to side could change the shape of the contact patch, and thus affect direction, but not so much the size of patch.

Contact patch size isn't maximum when vertical or at max lean angle...but there is a sweet spot based on lean angle somewhere between vertical and max lean angle.  The exact location of the sweet spot will vary depending on the way  the tire is designed as well as tire wear.

In the picture at this link the sweet spot is at about 40deg.

http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=329325