ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: camosoul on October 18, 2015, 09:33:11 AM
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I was holding off to see the 2016 specs...
So, let me get this straight. The main batter got almost unnoticeable larger, but now costs $3000.
I can pay extra for a tank accessory to charge better, but then I have two on-board chargers on a very space-limited vehicle that technically doesn't need either of them because the motor controller's regen circuit could be used... and if I do that, I lose the option to pay extra for more battery... Golly, if only I could find a way to give Zero more money for another bad idea...
Oh, and that tank accessory won't even be available until March? And it'll be incompetent stealership-installed? It's like they're allergic to learning...
In March, Tesla announces and begins taking deposits for the Model 3. For the price, it'll be a much, much better deal for the money than the Zero S. Yeah, the Tesla will cost more, but I'll also get a heckuva lot more for it...
Sorry Zero, you really got it all upside-down and backwards, while also costing way more money than it's worth even when compared to a notoriously expensive luxury car company! They have batteries 6x larger that charge in an hour!
I guess the money I was saving for a Zero will be spent on the Tesla instead. By the time it actually ships, I'll be able to buy it outright with cash. I'll just keep riding my busted bobber rat bike until then...
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So you're not buying a Zero?
Buh-bye then.
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camosoul,
Just one question....... :
When you edited your text was it to add or remove negative impression? ;D
Doc
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Quit acting like a little girl. You're seriously complaining that Zero isn't as good as Tesla, that a motorcycle isn't as good as a car? And the "batter" doesn't cost $3,000, they lowered the price of the base models.
This is the double edged sword of making annual improvements. Some people forget that the rest of the electric motorcycle industry has been wiped out, and take it for granted that they're still around and making progress.
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Well this is a different choice. Each time I bought a motorbike, there were cheaper cars availanble. And if you have small children, or need a very reactive service, Tesla's integrated dealership model is probably best for you.
In the end, the more electric drivers on the roads, the better the charging infras...
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I guess if I had $120,000 and the income to pay for the yearly registration fees and insurance, I would also buy a Tesla rather than a Zero. Provided, of course, if I wanted to own and ride in an enclosed vehicle instead of riding on two wheels and directly experiencing the environment. In my case, I have been riding motorcycles for over 53 years and just don't get cars, so my mind was made up a long time ago. ;)
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There is a large list of things that are better than the Zero, some are in the EV market.
There is also a large list of things that the Zero is better and, and some are in the EV market.
Earth, so far, is the best place for us to live and is one of the few "Best of" with a 100% following.
After than we split off with differing allegiances, some we fight wars over, others we just get a little snippy.
The Tesla has some features which are better than a Zero.
The Zero has some features which are better than a Tesla.
The balance for a buyer determines the ultimate categorization of those features.
This site has a collection of a wide range of users some with intimate familiarity with the features of a Zero.
The consensus appears to be that perhaps you are being too superficial in your assessment.
Insight into your methodology would inform.
Fast charging is important to you:
Level 1 charging a Zero recovers 10 miles per hour
Level 2 charging a Tesla (at 3600 watts) recovers 10 miles per hour
Level 2 charging a Tesla (at 7680 watts) recovers 20 miles per hour
What in your traveling dynamic is your need suited better in a Tesla?
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I am a proud owner of a Zero S but I understand completely why I am currently in the minority. Tesla has shown that you don't have to make compromise's to drive an electric car. They have shown that an electric car can have every creature comfort available in an ICE car but with the Insane (pun intended) performance of an electric drive train that the community on this forum have known is possible for a long time.
Not to diminish all the great things Zero HAS done but to date they have not demonstrated that an electric motorcycle can have all the creature comforts of an ICE motorcycle but with the performance Zero owners love so much. No compromise's.
Some might say that's Energica or Lightning but aside from the display and some associated software features those bike are on par with an ICE bike from 10 years ago. Not to mention they only cover a single segment of the overall motorcycle market (Street legal super sport) and for a large majority of the population there aren't any dealers close enough to actually buy one.
Somebody will eventually be the Tesla of motorcycles... maybe Tesla...maybe Zero...maybe someone else. It's just a matter of who, when and how much.
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I was holding off to see the 2016 specs...
So, let me get this straight. The main batter got almost unnoticeable larger, but now costs $3000.
That's one way to look at it. The 2016 bikes have slightly more capacity, and the ZF13 bike has a new heat-resistant motor. At the same price, that's pretty good.
The 2016 ZF9.8 doesn't have the new motor, and it's a little cheaper. So you could look at it as an effective pricecut for a bike that still has slightly more range than the 2015, or you could look at as better equipment for the same price on the larger battery bike.
Or you could look at it as the cost to go between the two bikes has increased further. I don't think this is a fair way to look at it - if Zero further cut the price of the ZF9 - say to $8k ZF9 $14k ZF13 - would this really be a slight? If the larger battery bike did NOT improve the motor but dropped its price by $1000, would that be better? If the ZF9 satisfied your needs, this would be great. If the smaller bike doesn't meet your needs, then why does it matter what it's priced at? Does a sportbike rider eyeing a $10k 600 cc bike complain because $4k 250 cc bikes exist?
Glass half-empty, glass half-full etc.
I can pay extra for a tank accessory to charge better, but then I have two on-board chargers on a very space-limited vehicle that technically doesn't need either of them because the motor controller's regen circuit could be used... and if I do that, I lose the option to pay extra for more battery... Golly, if only I could find a way to give Zero more money for another bad idea...
The idea of controller-based charging is enticing. It makes use of equipment we already have on a motorcycle platform that will always be starved for space.
However, there are really only two shipping production vehicles that have used controller-based charging, and both have moved away from the initial implementation.
Tesla Roadster initially used controller-based charging (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/40200-Roadster-Supercharging/page3?p=857210&viewfull=1#post857210), licensing patents from AC Propulsion. They later redesigned the power electronics and switched to a discrete onboard charging system .. and efficiency improved in the process (~104 MPGe in the 1.5, up to 119 MPGe in the 2.5).
Likewise, the Renault Zoe initially supported 43 kW fast AC charging through its controller-based Chamelon charging system. However, it too was modified in a later version (https://transportevolved.com/2014/12/16/renault-zoe-lose-43-kw-rapid-charging-preference-improved-home-charging/) (though kept instead of replaced with a discrete onboard charging system) for efficiency reasons.
This meant that it was possible to charge a ZOE from empty to full in under 40 minutes from a suitable charging station, or just an hour from a 22 kilowatt three-phase charging station. But because the original ZOE was designed with an emphasis on higher rather than lower-power charging, it meant that the on-board electronics were inefficient and slow at charging the car at from a lowly 3 kilowatt domestic charging station.
The result? ZOE owners complained about long charge times, inefficient charge cycles, and reduced usability.
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The new ZOE motor and power electronics have been designed to make lower-speed charging more efficient and convenient, but as a consequence have dropped support for 43 kilowatt three-phase rapid charging.
In a perfect world it'd be neat to see three charging variations: slow (3-6 kW) onboard charging, high-power AC controller-based charging (20+ kW), and offboard DC quick charging (30-50 kW).
Zero understands that they are a minor player in the EV space; as with gasoline vehicles, motorcycles will necessarily have to use a refueling system build for cars. In general, there is no established network of low-voltage DC quick charging stations spaced 50 miles apart. There is no network of fast AC charging stations in the US, nor cars that could use it if it did exist.
The most common charge point is a single 120V outlet, which supports overnight charging (and barely). And the 3.8 kW Charge Tank allows Zeros to "fill up" at relatively common J1772 charging stations, though it would have been nice to see them adopt a more powerful solution (like the DigiNow Super Charger).
I'd love to see Zero offer a bike someday that can use the Tesla Supercharger or CCS/CHAdeMO charging networks. I think they'll get there eventually .. but the CCS/CHAdeMO networks are still very much in their infancy, and Zero doesn't offer a bike that can travel effectively between the 100-120 mile gaps in the Tesla network.
In March, Tesla announces and begins taking deposits for the Model 3. For the price, it'll be a much, much better deal for the money than the Zero S. Yeah, the Tesla will cost more, but I'll also get a heckuva lot more for it...
Sorry Zero, you really got it all upside-down and backwards, while also costing way more money than it's worth even when compared to a notoriously expensive luxury car company! They have batteries 6x larger that charge in an hour!
I guess the money I was saving for a Zero will be spent on the Tesla instead. By the time it actually ships, I'll be able to buy it outright with cash. I'll just keep riding my busted bobber rat bike until then...
Realistically the Model 3 will not start shipping for at least two years .. possibly three or four years if Tesla continues a pattern of delayed releases. If you're not ready or interested in buying now, or if Zero doesn't meet your particular needs, that's no problem.. you shouldn't buy something that doesn't meet your needs. Just pause and consider why a $35k car to be released in late 2017 (or later) is preventing you from buying a $12-16k motorcycle to be released in early 2016.
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Who's turn is it for feeding the troll? ::)
lmao
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I've had my Zero S for over a year now and I love it.
I've tried to make it more suitable for longer trips, with 3.6kW of onboard charging, airhawks, sheepskin and panniers.
Unfortunately, it is not practical for round trips longer than 100km unless you're prepared to wait for >2 hours every 100km.
Trying to find suitable charge points is difficult as well.
Plus the seat is still a PITA even with Airhawks.
Lack of fairing makes highway travel very tiring.
The Zero has reawakened my love of riding so I'm looking at the CFMoto 650TK as a cheap (seems to be OK on the reviews) weekend tourer.
The Zero will still be my weekday weapon of choice but it is not a weekend bike.
Late news - bought the CFMoto
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Fast charging is important to you:
Level 1 charging a Zero recovers 10 miles per hour
Level 2 charging a Tesla (at 3600 watts) recovers 10 miles per hour
Level 2 charging a Tesla (at 7680 watts) recovers 20 miles per hour
What in your traveling dynamic is your need suited better in a Tesla?
Add in
Direct DC charging a Tesla (at 120,000 watts) recovers 170 miles in 1/2 hour
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Subtract out:
Direct Charging a Tesla (at 120,00 watts) recovers 170 miles in 1/2 hour
Because just over 5% of Tesla miles are accountable to Supercharging.
Looks like most of those trips are just going out to check out the SuperChargers (if google trip blogs are anything to go by).
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Ok I'll bite or rather feed.....
I bought a 2015 Zero S, sight unseen, never ridden a Zero ever.
Now, it's my always and everyday bike. Forget latest "specs" or latest blah blah, you don't need any of that, the industry is evolving in small steps. I love the damn thing and if 2016 specs holds you back, come back when in a few years. We will be tens of thousands of miles ahead of you.
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Hey Mega got my 2013 DS shipped sight unseen and had not been on a motorcycle in over 25 years. Love the thing it has got to be the best beginners bike around. Drop the specs down with the app while you get used to it and then up them as you get more confident. It's not perfect and some guys at work roll their eyes at an electric motorcycle but for pure ridding fun it can't be beat.
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Subtract out:
Direct Charging a Tesla (at 120,00 watts) recovers 170 miles in 1/2 hour
Because just over 5% of Tesla miles are accountable to Supercharging.
Looks like most of those trips are just going out to check out the SuperChargers (if google trip blogs are anything to go by).
About 15% of total Model S miles in the last year are on the Supercharger network, and about 10% of all Model S miles ever are supercharged.
I need to break out those stats, but that's based on every bit of public info I've found.
I think when the Model 3 arrives, with somewhat shorter range, it may increase to around 20% or so. People will still mostly charge overnight at home - particularly if Tesla implements a derating policy for local owners - but long trips are where people put miles on.
But you may be right that the Supercharger network is still somewhat novel, and people are surely taking long trips for the hell of it.
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Congrats on the bike. It's certainly something. Wow, does it get attention. Plus, riding through the French countryside was amazing. I took the S through horse trails and really challenged it and me. I'm seriously considering selling my other bike now. No rush but realize I love getting on the Zero and it made riding even more fun.
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Stats I found was 5.5% - as last year stats.
http://insideevs.com/5-model-s-miles-supercharged-miles (http://insideevs.com/5-model-s-miles-supercharged-miles)
But why would I keep hunting when I found stats that agreed with my point?
So it climbed to 8%
http://insideevs.com/share-of-supercharged-miles-for-tesla-model-s-increased-from-5-to-8/ (http://insideevs.com/share-of-supercharged-miles-for-tesla-model-s-increased-from-5-to-8/)
Now it is and impressive 86 million free miles... but I am missing the total miles...that you must have found to get 15%.
http://www.treehugger.com/cars/tesla-now-has-2000-superchargers-which-have-powered-86-million-electric-miles.html (http://www.treehugger.com/cars/tesla-now-has-2000-superchargers-which-have-powered-86-million-electric-miles.html)
But it takes a very particular driving situation to take advantage of these devices. Yes there is one within a 100 miles of me at a shopping center, so if I owned the mall I could quick charge whilst picking up my money... but if I worked a shift at the mall.. Tesla gets mad and send letters to people who "over use" the stations by parking too long.
A driving situation in which a Tesla became more viable because it had a scattered faster charging capacity over a Zero which charges (for a few more months) at any outlet but takes longer can exist. We must presume Camosoul has this situation... however the post is scant on the details of the predicament.
Few of us are touring long range electric as a career. Few of have such a long commute for too short of a shift period of time that Level 1 charging at destination isn't viable. (basically driving over 60 miles for a 6 hour shift).
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I was holding off to see the 2016 specs...
So, let me get this straight. The main batter got almost unnoticeable larger, but now costs $3000.
I can pay extra for a tank accessory to charge better, but then I have two on-board chargers on a very space-limited vehicle that technically doesn't need either of them because the motor controller's regen circuit could be used... and if I do that, I lose the option to pay extra for more battery... Golly, if only I could find a way to give Zero more money for another bad idea...
Oh, and that tank accessory won't even be available until March? And it'll be incompetent stealership-installed? It's like they're allergic to learning...
In March, Tesla announces and begins taking deposits for the Model 3. For the price, it'll be a much, much better deal for the money than the Zero S. Yeah, the Tesla will cost more, but I'll also get a heckuva lot more for it...
Sorry Zero, you really got it all upside-down and backwards, while also costing way more money than it's worth even when compared to a notoriously expensive luxury car company! They have batteries 6x larger that charge in an hour!
I guess the money I was saving for a Zero will be spent on the Tesla instead. By the time it actually ships, I'll be able to buy it outright with cash. I'll just keep riding my busted bobber rat bike until then...
I'm ruling out camosoul
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.. Tesla gets mad and send letters to people who "over use" the stations by parking too long.
I guess I'm not terribly surprised nobody's challenged that attitude by Tesla, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time. From everything I've read, there's no verbiage about the frequency you're allowed to use the superchargers, so Tesla has no legal leg to stand on in insisting anybody should do it less often than they are.
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Tesla gets mad and send letters to people who "over use" the stations by parking too long.
I believe the issue wasn't that Tesla owners were parking too long, but a very select few are charging daily using the superchargers instead of charging at their houses. Basically using a loophole to get free electricity on Tesla's dime every day instead of using them as they were intended, for free electricity occasionally on long trips.
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Stuff like this is not going to help sell electric vehicles. The infrastructure is not there in many areas. Add to that the problem of them not working or not being available when you want them and that is more than reason enough to not own an electric vehicle you have to charge anywhere but your own home. Seems like a business opportunity for a big oil company like Exxon, Shell, etc. to add charging stations to their service stations where they can be maintained and monitored 24 hours. Just charge whatever you need to recoup your investment. If someone pays out $150,000 for a car, they aren't going to quibble about $20 to recharge their car.
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Stuff like this is not going to help sell electric vehicles.
What stuff?
Right now most people can use electric vehicles for 90-95% of their needs. When fast charging is available (CHAdeMO, CCS, Tesla Supercharger) then EVs meet 100% of most people's needs, and only a small percentage would need a gas vehicle for going deep into the woods. Rarely do people need to charge away from home, and it is only crowded in a few locations in CA. There will be growing pains, but I know a lot of people who drive LEAFs, BMW i3s, Honda Fit EVs, Ford Focus EVs, Teslas, etc. and they love their cars!
I'm interested to see what happens with the DigiNow charger. If it can do everything Electric Cowboy says it can do (connect to any voltage and amperage to charge up to 1C), then the next iteration will allow faster charging and we will have the range and ability to ride with gas bikes as far as you want (with a little planning ahead). This is not "pie in the sky"devices that take decades to make, this is what we will probably see in a few months.
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1C may be your lot for current gen Zeros if this comment from LFP is anything to go by https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=73601 (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=73601)
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Yes, we can charge up to 1C currently.
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So that's not going to change "in a few months", is it? Or did I miss something?
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So that's not going to change "in a few months", is it? Or did I miss something?
I think what benswing meant is that the Zero battery pack is already capable of 1C but there aren't any good solutions to provide that rate....until the DigiNow super charger starts to ship to customers late next month.
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