ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: lolachampcar on February 26, 2013, 08:46:26 PM
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I have had my Tesla Model S for three weeks now and I am constantly amazed by their implementation of regenerative braking. In short, the throttle is a linear torque demand device that goes from max power to max regen. If you are using 20 KW-Hr to drive down the road at 65 mph and slowly lift your foot you will get to zero energy usage. This is the coast point. If you continue to lift, you will slowly engage more regenerative braking until you are fully off the throttle. There is sufficient RB to drive the car literally with one pedal up until you need to come to a complete stop (from about a three mile an hour crawl).
I bring this up because it would be an awesome addition to the Zero line up. If the guys at Zero are reading this, please go drive a Model S. If you are in West Palm Beach, come drive mine. If Sevcon made a controller that had progressive regenerative braking, I would buy it in a heartbeat. Do they Harlan?
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I always thought that the system used by the Vectrix scooter was the best for an electric motorcycle. When the throttle was closed, the power was off and you coasted. But when you rotated the throttle forward, past the "closed" position, the regen was activated and you slowed down. I think a lot of EV manufacturers would use that system if they could, but I understand that Vectrix has patented that idea. Personally, I would pay a little extra to have that feature on my motorcycle, even if Vectrix got the money.
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Same experience as Richard230 with my Vectrix. I really liked having the ability to easily come to a full stop only using the regen.
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I really liked having the ability to easily come to a full stop only using the regen.
I some ways I have created that effect with my handlebar switch on my 2012 DS. By riding in SPORT mode I can coast (as much as that lets me, with its unprogrammable built in regen). Then by pushing the switch lever forward with my left index finger I go into ECO with 15% regen or by pulling the lever back with my finger I get ECO mode with 25% regen (brake light on). I have used this to ride around town and longer runs, with stop lights, without touching my brakes. It's not the Vectrix but it's as close as I could come.
I've posted the info on my thread: "Handle bar switch works great".
Trikester
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In the same thread that Trikester mentioned, I also pointed out that Variable Regen on a clutch lever would also be a good solution. I'm pointing it out again because I would love to see that idea implemented. In the interim, I will probably copy Trikester's idea. I really wish I had more control of regen like the Vectrix scooters.
Jose Soriano
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I also pointed out that Variable Regen on a clutch lever would also be a good solution.
Exactly what I do at the moment!
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Having better access to the Zero's (Sevcon's) current regen options would be nice.
What I was angling for was a linear continously variable regen like the Tesla. I can move the throttle pedal to any point off of the then current "power on" point for the car and get regen. The more I lift, the more regen I get. I am learning to manage the regen to get perfect stops at lights and such without touching the brake until the very last moment. If traffic is stopping faster than I anticipated, I lift just a little bit more and vise versa.
The Zero offers two set regen levels. Just imagine an infinite number from near zero all the way to the maximum the controller is set for (by the user).
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It is my understanding that the new phone app allows 2013 Zero owners to customize the regen in Eco mode?
I doubt there will be an easy path for this for < 2012 Zeros.
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What I was angling for was a linear continously variable regen like the Tesla. I can move the throttle pedal to any point off of the then current "power on" point for the car and get regen. The more I lift, the more regen I get. I am learning to manage the regen to get perfect stops at lights and such without touching the brake until the very last moment. If traffic is stopping faster than I anticipated, I lift just a little bit more and vise versa.
It is the same in my Volt too. I love one peddle driving. It really is the ideal way to control the regen. The Vectrix method sounds interesting too but I'd have to ride that to see how it feels. I'm not sure if I like the idea of not having the stop being at full throttle off.
lolachampcar, I'm nowhere near West Palm but if you are offering joy rides of your S I'm sure I could jump on a plane and take you up on that! LOL J/K Your car is the only car I would ever replace my Volt with. It is a great car that S!
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my 12 9DS pushed me to look at the S last March. I am now seriously in love.
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When I am in Eco mode I also can come to a stop without touching my brakes. (I can do the same thing in Sport mode, but it just takes a lot more distance.) However, you do have to keep an eye on the traffic behind you. Since not touching your brakes will not activate your brake light, cars behind you will not be warned that you are slowing down and that might be an issue for an inattentive driver, who might not wake up until it is too late. Be especially wary at night or in poor lighting conditions, like fog. A word to the wise - and I don't always follow my own advice. ???
I think I read that the Empulse activates its brake light when regen is activated.
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When I operate my handle bar switch to the rear to get max regen, it puts on the brake light. I like knowing that when I'm slowing the quickest I have the light on. I have made numerous complete stops in traffic without the brake or only a slight tap of the brake at the end.
I'll alternate between SPORT, ECO with 15%, and ECO with 25% to adjust my stopping distance. Of course I have to blip the throttle each time I want to change.
Trikester
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Regarding the brake light, isn't it possible to just pull the brake a little with the brake lever to just have the lights go on? It's not a bad thing to be prepared for a quick stop anyways while rb is activated.
Also I was under the impression that brakes where related to rb? If you just brake a little - you will actually only activate rb, not using the brakes -hence getting lights and rb. Maybe this was a car I read about and not the Zero.. I'm not a Zero owner (yet) so obviously this is not statements but questions.
The -13 mobile app can control regen power, maybe this is on way of getting the linear rb.. hmm.. one could reverse engineer the app to expose the bike API.. but then whats next.. hmm..
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Going into program mode on the Sevcon on a constant basis adjusting regen to simulate a linear regen function would not seem practical if even possible. I think the linear regen would need to be a fundamental function of the speed controller.
Tesla uses an accelerometer to engage the brake light at appropriate regen braking levels. The lack of this feature is a safety issue with Zero in my opinion.
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Also I was under the impression that brakes where related to rb? If you just brake a little - you will actually only activate rb, not using the brakes -hence getting lights and rb. Maybe this was a car I read about and not the Zero.. I'm not a Zero owner (yet) so obviously this is not statements but questions.
I have found on my 2012 DS and my 2013 FX that the brake starts dragging about the same time that the light comes on. I like the HB switch so that I'm not braking at all when asking for more regen. I can always still brake if I need to. :o
Trikester
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When nearing an intersection, going downhill or in any other situation that might look kind of dangerous, it is always a good idea to cover your brake levers and be ready to brake if something bad suddenly happens.
I agree that when slowing down or coming to a stop, if you have traffic behind you, you should apply your brakes lightly so as to activate your brake light and alert following drivers that you are there and slowing down.
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I always cover my brake in traffic, even when using the handlebar sw.
Trikester
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...the brake light at appropriate regen braking levels. The lack of this feature is a safety issue with Zero in my opinion.
But if you use regen braking you use the brake => brakelight goes on. If you slow don't with neutral throttle it will be the same as you use the motorbraking force of an ICE and there is no brakelight either.
The Sevcon is able to activate an analog output when applying regen brake, which I use to activate the brakelight at my mod.
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The advantage is that with 15% regen = no brake light, is similar to ICE compression braking. Faster slowing at 25% regen = brake light, warning the vehicle behind that rapid slowing is happening ahead. :o
Trikester
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Trikester,
Do you know that each ECO/SPORT mode switch reprogram 4 cells inside the Secvon?
I know the µ-Controller and eeproms are durable nowadays but you should keep it in sight!
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The regen braking/ brake light discussion has be a heated discussion over on gm-volt.com since the Volt came out too. When I drive around in high regen mode in the Volt I'm always cautious of the traffic behind me and if the traffic is too heavy I leave the car in normal mode and use the brakes. When it comes right down to it you have to judge the road around you. Just like you wouldn't down gear a manual tranny car when you are being tailgated you should consider the traffic behind you when you drive/ride with high regen.
I really like Tesla's solution. I'm sure eventually every vehicle with regenerative braking will have a brake light activation system like that. It just makes the most sense.
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+1 for the Vectrix multi function throttle.
Not only does it do regen when you roll back beyond zero while moving forward, at standstill it functions as a slow speed reverse!
When you activate regen it will activate the brake light.
If you lock up the rear wheel it will de-activate the regen and you will have to re-engage from zero. (poor mans ABS)
Try the Vectrix for 5 minutes and you will be fully used to the regen. It is very intuitive!
It is perfect for every single speed EV two wheeler.
I dislike the fact that some EV's do not activate the brake light under regen braking.
Also I think that an EV car should coast at zero throttle and that the brake padle should operate the regen.
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kingcharles
Drive the Model S for a while and you will be converted to truely graceful one pedal driving.
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Do you know that each ECO/SPORT mode switch reprogram 4 cells inside the Secvon?
I know the µ-Controller and eeproms are durable nowadays but you should keep it in sight!
Yes, we beat this subject to death on this forum and in communications with Zero, about six or eight months ago. Nobody at Zero quite knows what will happen when it is maxed out, except for a trouble warning. They guessed about 10K cycles but didn't know for sure.
The good news is: That Zero worked with Sevcon and eliminated this problem on the 2013's so from here on, with new bikes, it is not a concern. 8)
Trikester
Trikester
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It is my understanding that the new phone app allows 2013 Zero owners to customize the regen in Eco mode?
Yes, the amount of regen (while coasting) and regen braking are both customizable from 0 to 100%. I've left mine at 100% for regen while braking and 70% for regen while coasting, for now, because this is my first motorcycle and I'm really loving the regen brake effect while coasting. However, I can imagine the 70% getting to be too much in some situations. One thing I've noticed is that with a full charge and starting out downhill, the regen is spotty and with a full battery there is nothing more to regenerate, so it goes from a smooth coast to some braking and back, similar to the feeling I had in our old Honda civic hybrid when its battery was fully charged while heading downhill. But this 2013 DS is amazing!
EastSider
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There have been postings on this forum about the lack of regen when the battery is full.
Also, when you set the regen level on the new bikes you are setting to a percentage of the built in limit, so setting 100% would be 25% regen.
Trikester
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kingcharles
Drive the Model S for a while and you will be converted to truely graceful one pedal driving.
The idea is flawed and potentially dangerous. I can see drivers reaction to an emergency situation be that they push the accelerator in stead of the brake when they are performing regen. What I mean is that a driver could have a confused reaction to an emergency situation. Each pedal should have a unique function.
question:
Does the regen on a Tesla S activate the brake light?
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There is an accelerometer that turns on the brake light when the car is decelerating at more than an ICE coast down rate.
As for confusion, there is absolutely none. Think of it as an aggressive coast down controlled by how far you lift off the throttle. You still go for the brake when you have a problem.
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I've wanted to put a rear brake lever on my left handle bar but since I also ride ICE bikes I'm afraid that in a panic stop I would grab that lever hard reacting as though it was a clutch. This is probably the reason that Zero doesn't put the rear brake there. It sure would be nice though, like when lowering myself down a nasty steep sand hill where touching the front brake would not be good. :-[ It's difficult to get a precise feathering of the rear brake using a clumsy foot.
Trikester
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The idea is flawed and potentially dangerous. I can see drivers reaction to an emergency situation be that they push the accelerator in stead of the brake when they are performing regen. What I mean is that a driver could have a confused reaction to an emergency situation. Each pedal should have a unique function.
One thing to consider is that you still use the brake every time you stop, and you would need it for anything more than a leisurely coast down. Current cars do this as well with engine braking, but you don't see drivers having that sort of confusion. This is more an issue of "stronger than normal coast-down qualities meet drivers retraining themselves to mellow out and rely more on coast-down" rather than "driver starts to believe that there is only one pedal that does anything for the car". In the end, it won't stop on regen alone and your right foot remains quite familiar with where the brake is.
The same technique might happen more with ICE cars if their engine braking was stronger.
Also, I think they have plenty of data from the Roadster owners that they don't get confused.
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I've done a lot of city riding on my DS where I don't use the brake at all when coming to a stop. Just switching between the several regen options that Zero gives us and then putting my foot down at the end. Of course that isn't always the case but it works many times - no mechanical braking.
Trikester
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Thanks for the details on how the Tesla S works. I was thinking of full regen breaking, but it seems it is not more than a little more "engine braking" than an ICE car.
I like the accelerometer design!
But it triggers a follow on question. Is it possible to utilize full regen? Prehaps in combination with the accellerometer and the brake padle? So is the brake padle friction brakes only or is it up to full regen first and then assisted with friction?
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I personally feel that we have to give ourselves a bit more credit in regards to adapting to different controls and riding techniques. I have multiple vehicles with varied control methods. My '67 Mini is right hand drive, my scooter uses a brake lever on the left handle bar for rear brakes, and old british bike I once had was all backwards when it came to controls. Bicycles have the rear brake on the right handlebar and the front brake on the left. Heck going from a car to a motorcycle is completely different in itself! I MIGHT reach for the wrong lever or be confused for a quick second at the start (if I haven't driven or ridden the vehicle in a while) but after that, I have never felt unsafe or reacted poorly in an emergency situation because of control confusion.
Jose Soriano
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When I built my first trike and started riding it a lot I was worried that I would forget to counter steer, at highway speed, when I got back on a two wheel motorcycle (a trike is still a motorcycle by definition). No worries, it never came into play. When on a trike I automatically steer into turns and automatically counter steer into turns when on two wheels.
Trikester
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Bicycles have the rear brake on the right handlebar and the front brake on the left.
Jose Soriano
Maybe its a colonial thing but every bicycle i have ridden has the front brake on the right.
Even full regen on my 12 S does not decelerate as hard as my KTM 690 under engine braking in low gears, at least until the slipper clutch does its job, so i don't see the brake light thing as an issue personally. I used to show my brake light using the rear brake pedal on my ICE bikes when under engine braking anyway.
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Every mountain bike I have ridden has the rear brake on the right handlebar and the front brake on the left. It's the standard setup for mountain bikes.
Trikester
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I hate the bicycle brake position and normally change the front brake to the right side.
But Trikester how do you handle the front brake at the FX on the left ;D
Sorry but since the first time I saw the FX promo video I want to make a joke of this mirrored part.
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That is a weird photo showing a brake lever on the left. Maybe one of the first factory riders wanted it that way. ???
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Just asked a few colleagues and bicycles over here definitely have the front brake on the right. I dunno, first you drive on the wrong side of the road, and now this.
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My last sepex GPR-S used a braking system that had the front brake lever on the right bar and the rear brake lever on the left bar. I think this was to solve some sort of packaging problem.
IC motorcycles that have been modified with a left handlebar brake, typically also have a clutch on that bar, also. These modifications are usually used by stunt riders - for obvious reasons, as their feet are usually somewhere else than on the motorcycle's pegs when they are doing their thing.
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I once modified a Yamaha TW200 to have two levers on the right bar. In normal position was the front brake and straight up above it was a lever that would operate the rear brake foot pedal.
I did this because I sometimes wanted to lower myself down steep deep sand slopes where touching the front brake would result in falling. However, I often had my feet out to "tripod" the bike so I couldn't drag the rear brake at the same time. After the mod, I could raise my fingers up and operate the high right lever to drag the rear brake. I didn't put the extra lever on the left because I would usually be holding in or slipping the clutch at the same time. I arranged the mechanical action so the the rear brake foot lever could still be used at any time.
Trikester
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Having ridden both the Empulse and Zeros I gotta say I prefer regen in my brake with a light touch rather than forcing the throttle further shut. It is really nice to coast sometimes and hunting for the sweet spot in the throttle can be a real drag.
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Methinks some "artist" took some creative liberties with that photo and mirrored it.
I hate the bicycle brake position and normally change the front brake to the right side.
But Trikester how do you handle the front brake at the FX on the left ;D
Sorry but since the first time I saw the FX promo video I want to make a joke of this mirrored part.
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No. it is not a Photo, watch the FX promotion video it is in the last seconds when the rider makes the nose wheelie. You see him making two nose wheelies but it is the same first original second mirrored!
I am not sure, but if you have not enough material mirror it and you have the double length ;)
With a normal bike (clutch and front brake) nobody would realize :-[