ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Tech => Parts, Mods And Hacks => Topic started by: tbombadil on October 22, 2019, 10:31:35 AM
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Anyone have the details on how to properly order this or 3.3kWx2 and instructions on how to hook everything up? I keep doing searches and looking all around but am not finding enough information to help get myself confident in making decisions on charging.
I have a 2019 Zero DSR with an OEM 6kW charge tank and a stock lower OEM charger.
http://www.evcomponents.com/elcon-tc-hk-j-6600w-charger.html
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There’s a lot of detail on zeromanual.com to help you fill in details about the battery and chargers.
Elcon is their own business and you can contact them directly for technical questions.
You will have to connect securely to the Anderson plug on the accessory charging port. Making this connection requires technical competence that usually requires direct supervision during training for quality.
I don’t think the single 6.6kW unit is a good fit for a Zero. It’s too bulky and heavy to place in the tail case or any other position on the frame. Two separate 3.3kW units are easier to mount and position, whether in the tank area or on each side of the bike.
I’m wary of advising further, as there are risks involved in using a non-homologated CC-CV charger with a Zero if you don’t treat it seriously.
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There’s a lot of detail on zeromanual.com to help you fill in details about the battery and chargers.
[ . . . ]
You will have to connect securely to the Anderson plug on the accessory charging port. Making this connection requires technical competence that usually requires direct supervision during training for quality.
[ . . . ]
I’m wary of advising further, as there are risks involved in using a non-homologated CC-CV charger with a Zero if you don’t treat it seriously.
ZeroManual only left me with a lot more questions. Where did people obtain all this data previously?
* Do 2019 models also use Farasis 32Ah?
* Is the Farasis 29Ah the same as the Farasis 32Ah?
* If they aren't the same, where can I obtain the information pertaining to Farasis 32Ah? Just e-mail 'em?
Doesn't seem obvious they'd just hand that information out and doesn't seem the information is freely available on the internet currently. Alas, I guess I'll just go ahead and begin the e-mailing. .
What are your recommendations for things with less risks?
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There’s a lot of detail on zeromanual.com to help you fill in details about the battery and chargers.
[ . . . ]
You will have to connect securely to the Anderson plug on the accessory charging port. Making this connection requires technical competence that usually requires direct supervision during training for quality.
[ . . . ]
I’m wary of advising further, as there are risks involved in using a non-homologated CC-CV charger with a Zero if you don’t treat it seriously.
ZeroManual only left me with a lot more questions. Where did people obtain all this data previously?
* Do 2019 models also use Farasis 32Ah?
* Is the Farasis 29Ah the same as the Farasis 32Ah?
* If they aren't the same, where can I obtain the information pertaining to Farasis 32Ah? Just e-mail 'em?
Doesn't seem obvious they'd just hand that information out and doesn't seem the information is freely available on the internet currently. Alas, I guess I'll just go ahead and begin the e-mailing. .
I’m the main contributor and editor. I get the information by gathering it from documents, by using onboard diagnostics, by downloading data sheets, by asking insiders and then corroborating their information by finding other insiders who don’t like the original insiders, and by observation.
Before the manual, people did this but it was a much smaller group because it was all word of mouth and not shared.
Anyway, to answer your questions in order:
* yes
* no, but they use the same voltage range
* Farasis published data sheets for 25Ah cells back in 2013 or so. Now they don’t, and it’s unclear how often they make internal datasheets. We’ve inferred follow on information and I have some additional data I’m not allowed to share but helps corroborate observations.
It never hurts to send an email or make a phone call. You will need some art of persuasion typically but the worst case is they’ll just decide not to help you.
You can definitely try emailing Farasis but the 25Ah data sheets already give the voltage range and are pretty close to what you’ll need.
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The lower risk option is to find an aftermarket product and use that, or find a competent electrical technician who can work with charging equipment and have them customize the charger for you.
I do mean it that the crimping skill is critical and cannot be half-assed. I’ve had bad crimps from known vendors here, and it did not look or seem abnormal until a few cycles while traveling when the connector came undone.
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Anyone have the details on how to properly order this or 3.3kWx2 and instructions on how to hook everything up? I keep doing searches and looking all around but am not finding enough information to help get myself confident in making decisions on charging.
I have a 2019 Zero DSR with an OEM 6kW charge tank and a stock lower OEM charger.
http://www.evcomponents.com/elcon-tc-hk-j-6600w-charger.html
Referencing the other thread Elcon TC HK-H 1800W Charger (on Zero Motorcycles 2013+) / Reply #21 (https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.msg82618#msg82618) which is relevant; How to order your charger(s) with that vendor so that it will be CAN addressable.
Datasheets are not all generally available for Farasis cells for contract customers like Zero Motorcycles. You're right to start with the datasheet but this is a case of incomplete information from the OEM and supplier. Best guess (agreeing with BTR based on conversations with battery experts) is that the voltage and charge/discharge characteristics are close enough between different Ah-rated pouch cells to infer from older datasheets what to do when charging the newer higher-capacity pouch cells for the same application (ZForce battery modules).
I'm especially interested to know if you are ordering the 3kW or 6kW charging module(s) as water-cooled version to take plenty of photos of all faces, and tell us if the 12V fan cooling supply is present or is deleted? The 12V fan supply leads protruding on air-cooled 3kW and 6kW charging modules is a sheer point that can short-circuit so releasing the magic smoke. Also for the 6kW charging module it would be very nice to lay out where to mount it on the bike, possibly to have 2x 6kW charging modules. On bikes with a ZF14.4 monolith or better you could fully utilize 12kW of charging. From experience* you won't be able to use all of the capability of 2x 6kW charging modules on a ZF13 equipped bike.
*Edit/Note: Actually this ZF13 limitation was experienced using 3x 3.3kW modules plus the stock S/DS onboard charger which exceeds the Over-1C-for-30-Seconds limit on the MBB
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I’m the main contributor and editor.
Thank you for your service!
I'm especially interested to know if you are ordering the 3kW or 6kW charging module(s) as water-cooled version to take plenty of photos of all faces, and tell us if the 12V fan cooling supply is present or is deleted? The 12V fan supply leads protruding on air-cooled 3kW and 6kW charging modules is a sheer point that can short-circuit so releasing the magic smoke. Also for the 6kW charging module it would be very nice to lay out where to mount it on the bike, possibly to have 2x 6kW charging modules. On bikes with a ZF14.4 monolith or better you could fully utilize 12kW of charging. From experience* you won't be able to use all of the capability of 2x 6kW charging modules on a ZF13 equipped bike.
*Edit/Note: Actually this ZF13 limitation was experienced using 3x 3.3kW modules plus the stock S/DS onboard charger which exceeds the Over-1C-for-30-Seconds limit on the MBB
I'd definitely rather just order 1 6kW module so that I can use it in tandem (double J1772) with my OEM 6kW charge tank for a total of 12kW. Can the ZF14.4 be taken past 12kW without breaching 1C? I think having a water-cooled version would be more of my preference, but I haven't found any that would work out. Any suggestions? I was just thinking about putting it in a box on the tail and carrying whatever things I need in my bookbag (or maybe vice versa somehow?). Does that sound like a bad plan?
Thank you both for your very insightful replies. :)
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If you put that charger in a box on the tail, you will break the bolts that hold the top rack onto the tail subframe. I've done it with an Elcon 2500 which weighs about the same (and performs much worse for that mass). Even before or if you never break those bolts, handling will suffer pretty badly by putting a large mass on the end of a lever that you swing around as you turn.
This is what I mean about this charger size: it's too big and bulky to place in any reasonable location on a Zero bike (except possibly the SR/F along the trellis tubes, but I'd still rather have flatter smaller chargers one-per-side on that bike).
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If you put that charger in a box on the tail, you will break the bolts that hold the top rack onto the tail subframe. I've done it with an Elcon 2500 which weighs about the same (and performs much worse for that mass). Even before or if you never break those bolts, handling will suffer pretty badly by putting a large mass on the end of a lever that you swing around as you turn.
This is what I mean about this charger size: it's too big and bulky to place in any reasonable location on a Zero bike (except possibly the SR/F along the trellis tubes, but I'd still rather have flatter smaller chargers one-per-side on that bike).
However a heavy load like that should be OK if mounted to the passenger seat in some sort of homemade container.
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If you put that charger in a box on the tail, you will break the bolts that hold the top rack onto the tail subframe. I've done it with an Elcon 2500 which weighs about the same (and performs much worse for that mass). Even before or if you never break those bolts, handling will suffer pretty badly by putting a large mass on the end of a lever that you swing around as you turn.
This is what I mean about this charger size: it's too big and bulky to place in any reasonable location on a Zero bike (except possibly the SR/F along the trellis tubes, but I'd still rather have flatter smaller chargers one-per-side on that bike).
Yeah. Seems like all their offerings that we want are rather heavy. I've still went ahead with e-mailing them to see if they have some spare time to deal with me.
Elcon PFC 2500 is listed net weight 15.6lb. The Elcon 3.3kW UHF CAN bus charger is listed weight 8.6lb (without heatsink or fan attached). The Elcon 6.6kW UHF CAN bus charger is listed as weight 17.1lb (without heatsink or fan attached).
However a heavy load like that should be OK if mounted to the passenger seat in some sort of homemade container.
Interesting suggestion. Do you think one could have this container mounted both to the passenger seat and stretching across back to the tail ?
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Yeah, fixing and spreading the load to the passenger seat will dampen the load and reduce or eliminate the problem I mentioned. If you have side racks or cases, you can strap them to fix the load on the seat as well. I’ve done this by placing chargers in a waterproof kayaking bag and setting up tie downs against the side racks. Then I open up the bag or container to get the cabling out to charge.
The top rack bolts break when traveling at highway speeds over rough road patches or sharp dips or broken pavement. It’s the dynamic load of the rack waving up and down that breaks the rack.
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There's really only 3 or 4 threaded inserts into the S/DS frame that could support a load down in front, and I don't know enough to run calcs on dynamic loading forces to determine if it would be a good mounting position either side of the ZForce module down low. I'd made a bracket for that smallest 1800W module and felt like that was an interesting mounting strategy to be looked further into. I think you could fashion something that also ties into the mounting points used for the crash bars.
Engineering EV on a motorbike platform is so interesting :-)
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I have designs for brackets (not symmetrical) that will put a 3300W module on each side of the lower front chin of the frame.
It mounts absolutely flush to the frame (routing conservatively around the welds) on the inner plate, and then on the outer plate mounts absolutely flush to the appropriate side of the charger, so that the cables emerge from the upper rear direction where they can be routed into the accessory charging port. Three bolts hold each set of plates to the frame, and three bolts hold the charger to the plates. It helps to have two plates sandwiched versus a single thicker plate, and to use appropriate adhesive vinyl to minimize rubbing between the frame and the plates.
I went through several design revisions and got the price down to a very reasonable number as long as I can make them in batches using lasercut fabrication (with waterjet fabrication a somewhat close second).
I did drop the bike once and damaged a cooling fan, alas. So, I'd been looking for a simple way to guard the fans at the time of the accident stopping all work.
The brackets and the chargers survived my Zero DSR's destruction, so they weren't too shabby in terms of structural integrity. My bike rolled end over end once the powerlines caught it (and me, separately).
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Here are some shots of the bike with it installed:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191024/a832b5f92f1ee6762aa2f2288fd5f7b5.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191024/f45cd87da59b4c4ca5344f30c2b92504.jpg)
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Do you think the drop bars would be in the way of where you mounted? Looks like they probably are.
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Yes, I had to remove the drop bars to install the chargers there. I was not happy about it, because a different (lower profile) cooling system wouldn't have interfered with the drop bars, and because I wanted to mount a big fairing using the drop bars.
But I think it's a very good place for chargers. It minimizes the cable length to the central routing area, and sits forward of one's feet which keeps the wind off.
You can also attach them to side racks - Happy Trails racks on my bike there were pretty close to suitable for it. I changed my mind about it because I didn't want cables running back there where dirt gets kicked up and it's less easy to guard the cables from moisture.
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How are these rated for handling the elements? Not planning to do any riding in really severe weather, but if these are exposed and it drizzles/rains on the bike during a work day, is there any risk of damaging equipment?
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How are these rated for handling the elements? Not planning to do any riding in really severe weather, but if these are exposed and it drizzles/rains on the bike during a work day, is there any risk of damaging equipment?
The product page listing in the original post says IP67, which agrees with other outlets and was bragged about by DigiNow when they were producing 3.3kW-unit-based charging systems. So that's a really good rating test for dust (6) and water (7) per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code . This does seem to be the case from ownership reports and in my usage.
However, the 12V and CAN wiring is known to have electrical vulnerabilities, that is that the internal circuitry isn't fully isolated from electrical faults induced from the outside. That means that the cooling fan wires, if shorted, could "brick" the charger, and I've personally seen some heating of CAN wiring on a 5-unit DigiNow system I was using while on the road.
So, there is this electrical sensitivity that is worth minding, and it would be helpful to have a professional vendor with a lot of experience handle that for customers. But if you don't damage the wiring or run complicated setups with failure-prone elements, these chargers are fine for keeping on vehicles. (Especially compared to server power supplies or Eltek Flatpack units with a higher power density that are only designed for controlled, dry, stationary environments.)
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> > Do you think the drop bars would be in the way of where you mounted? Looks like they probably are.
> Yes, I had to remove the drop bars to install the chargers there...
The drop bars are very solid, and I think will be fine for mounting the chargers. I'll post the details of the brackets and mounting plate when I get to it.
> ... Happy Trails racks ...
Yes, the happy-trail SU rack is very solid, and I've carried three of the 3.3kw units on one side or distributed left and right with no issues.
https://www.happy-trail.com/su-side-racks.html