ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Xenoilphobe on September 11, 2015, 02:49:51 AM
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Should I be concerned? Thought it would charge to 5.7 KW - it will never go above 97%. any ideas...
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I have a DS, but the 2013 Zero FX specs (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-fx/2013/specs.php) list 5.0 kWh as the nominal spec for a 5.7 kWh load.
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So that is normal for a brand new FX? It only charges to 97% then stops. does your DS do that too? so this is marketing. 5.7 will never happen and is just a marketing model #
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Years ago, a marketing type looked at a solar panel's data sheet, picked the absolute highest voltage the panel would ever put out, which happens with no load ("open circuit" voltage). He then picked the absolute highest current anywhere on the data sheet, which happens with a dead short (basically an infinite load; the exact opposite condition from the maximum voltage condition). He then multiplied those two numbers together and decided that it was an "80 watt" panel. Never mind that the absolute maximum power you'll ever get in the real world, somewhere between zero and infinite loads, is maybe 60 watts...his fictitious number looked better so he used it in his advertising materials.
Other manufacturers were faced with a dilemma. They could either do the right thing, rate their panels realistically, or cheat like the first guy did. But rating the panels realistically isn't an option -- who'd buy a 60 watt panel when someone else sells an "80 watt" panel for the same price? So all the other manufacturers had to fall in line and use the same shady rating technique whether they wanted to or not.
Battery manufacturers do the same thing, again whether they want to or not. If you multiply the amp-hour capacity of the battery on my 2014 Zero SR (100 amp-hours) times the nominal voltage of the battery pack (somewhere around 100 volts), you find the battery pack is nominally about a 10.0kWh battery, which Zero informally says is pretty accurate. But if you use the absolute highest possible battery voltage you can charge the battery to without damaging it (114 volts), you get the "rated" number that Zero advertises, 11.4kWh. It's cheesy at best, fraudulent at worst, but they HAVE to do it that way because everybody else does. Otherwise, the customer would be comparing apples to oranges, which wouldn't fairly compare Zero's specs to other manufacturers'.
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Ok so this normal for a 5.7 FX with 98 miles?
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Ok so this normal for a 5.7 FX with 98 miles?
We can't assure you of that, but you don't have enough evidence to be worried. Try calling your dealer if it doesn't improve.
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I have a 15, and I've found that the charge can be misleading when you turn it on. Sometimes after my morning commute the batteries will be at 95%, then later in the afternoon go back up to 100. The cells cool down and rebalance after a while.
But after a night of charging it should say 100% on the dash. Maybe if the bike sat for a winter fully discharged, that would wear the cells out. Otherwise, 2-3% difference is not that far for an FX, and would still be perfectly livable. If this persists though, it'd be a good idea to call the dealer or customer service.
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Drove it tonight for about 40 miles (some on road, some off road) all below 40 MPH. Will see if the cell balance out after a couple days - who knows how this bike was treated before i got it. May try the high power charger once I get the right connector soldered on.
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Years ago, a marketing type looked at a solar panel's data sheet, picked the absolute highest voltage the panel would ever put out, which happens with no load ("open circuit" voltage). He then picked the absolute highest current anywhere on the data sheet, which happens with a dead short (basically an infinite load; the exact opposite condition from the maximum voltage condition). He then multiplied those two numbers together and decided that it was an "80 watt" panel. Never mind that the absolute maximum power you'll ever get in the real world, somewhere between zero and infinite loads, is maybe 60 watts...his fictitious number looked better so he used it in his advertising materials.
This may have been the case at one time, but I don't think it's how most panels are sold today. Most panels seem to be sold on a STC rating, which while completely unrealistic due to lack of solar heating taper, is at least physically possible to achieve. PTC is a more realistic rating and many panels do specify this rating as well.
Battery manufacturers do the same thing, again whether they want to or not. If you multiply the amp-hour capacity of the battery on my 2014 Zero SR (100 amp-hours) times the nominal voltage of the battery pack (somewhere around 100 volts), you find the battery pack is nominally about a 10.0kWh battery, which Zero informally says is pretty accurate. But if you use the absolute highest possible battery voltage you can charge the battery to without damaging it (114 volts), you get the "rated" number that Zero advertises, 11.4kWh. It's cheesy at best, fraudulent at worst, but they HAVE to do it that way because everybody else does. Otherwise, the customer would be comparing apples to oranges, which wouldn't fairly compare Zero's specs to other manufacturers'.
You're spot on about how the maximum capacity works, but I can only think of Zero as a manufacturer that works this way. Zero didn't "have" to do it this way, they simply chose to.
Brammo Enertia Plus: 24s7p with 3.7V 10 Ah cells = 6.2 kWh nominal
Brammo Empulse: 28s9p with 3.7 10 Ah cells = 9.3 kWh nominal
Nissan LEAF: 96s2p with 3.75V 32.5 Ah cells = 23.4 kWh nominal; typically 22 kWh available.
BMW i3: 96s1p with 3.8V 60 Ah cells = 21.9 kWh nominal; typically 18 kWh available.
In 2010 Zero listed only the "maximum" capacity of their pack on their site (https://web.archive.org/web/20100210172444/http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s-specs.php). The current site still has an archive (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/2010/specs.php) of their older bikes. The 2010 packs were 14s24p 2.9 Ah = 53.2V nominal, 57.4V maximum 69.6 Ah = 3.7 kWh nominal, 4.0 kWh maximum (if charged to 4.1 volts per cell).
In 2011 and later years Zero broke out their battery pack into nominal and maximum capacity. They continue to rate their battery packs like this today; in 2012 Brammo began rating the Empulse in a maximum rating fashion as well.
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it's a 2013 model with 98 miles, it has sat in a garage (or what ever) unused and possibly uncharged for a while, damaging the battery (a couple of cells or so) if it was allowed to go "flat". Only a theory but quite likely.
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So that is normal for a brand new FX? It only charges to 97% then stops. does your DS do that too? so this is marketing. 5.7 will never happen and is just a marketing model #
5.7kWh is "peak" capacity, whereas the nominal capacity is closer to the 5.1kWh indicated on the app. The solar panel example is a good comparison, you'll never get 5.7kWh out of the battery. I don't think it was an arbitrary or malicious decision to indicate an optimistic capacity by Zero, as protomech suggests. Many of the Federal and State Tax Rebates for EVs were using peak capacity as their criteria, so it made sense at the time.
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I think the important point is that it will not charge to 100%
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So that is normal for a brand new FX? It only charges to 97% then stops. does your DS do that too? so this is marketing. 5.7 will never happen and is just a marketing model #
5.7kWh is "peak" capacity, whereas the nominal capacity is closer to the 5.1kWh indicated on the app. The solar panel example is a good comparison, you'll never get 5.7kWh out of the battery. I don't think it was an arbitrary or malicious decision to indicate an optimistic capacity by Zero, as protomech suggests. Many of the Federal and State Tax Rebates for EVs were using peak capacity as their criteria, so it made sense at the time.
I don't think it was malicious; but I certainly hope the decision was made over the kicking and screaming of their engineers. The CVRP program is a flat amount per vehicle, and the IRC 30D federal tax credit refers to a measured capacity rating, which will certainly be closer to nominal than to maximum. It's possible that other programs may have preferred to measure capacity in terms of a maximum rating, but again Zero is the only manufacturer that I know of that has consistently used maximum capacity.
The 5.1 kWh indicated by the app is likely simply the indicated 45 Ah times the voltage, which is likely around 114V at 97% SOC.
You may see an improvement in the SOC (to 100% / 50 Ah) given a long time plugged in to balance - possibly as many as 72 hours. Or it may settle out over several charge / discharge cycles, if the bike has been sitting plugged in for a long time.
Basically just ride the bike! Give it a bit and see if it improves.
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Drove it tonight for about 40 miles (some on road, some off road) all below 40 MPH. Will see if the cell balance out after a couple days - who knows how this bike was treated before i got it. May try the high power charger once I get the right connector soldered on.
Hey glad t see you got your bike and I hope you enjoy it but remember how I said the most important thing about buying the bike was the warranty? If you go soldering Ebay crap on that bike you may kiss the warranty good bye. Companies don't like paying for any repair they think may have been caused by a customer's screw up so go forward at your own risk. My understanding is the bike will not let you fully drain the battery if it can help it so you never get the full 5.7 out of it. Now I get to call WOW tomorrow and find out how you got your bike before I got mine back.
I don't want to sound like a jerk on here but I don't want you to be upset with a bike I help steer you toward. Have fun with it. Cheers
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I think the important point is that it will not charge to 100%
I'm agree with this
You are all talking about how much kwhrs
From what I got from the question/comment was
The bike DOES not fully charge. And only charges to 97% which isn't 114v. It would be nice to have a multimeter on the probes to see what the actually battery fully charged.... Does the bike green light when fully charged?
To me, if it's true that it can't get above 97% of voltage under the 114 and the charger kicks off; you need to turn in the batteries under warrantee before your shit expires
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Just as a comparison: my Power Tank 2014 S is rated at 14.2 kWh by Zero. However when fully charged to 100%, the Zero app shows 13.34 kWh of (I assume) actual energy available. It is my understanding that the "nominal" battery capacity quoted by vehicle manufacturers is always less than the actual capacity, most likely due to an agreed-upon (wink, wink) convention by battery and vehicle manufacturers to inflate the numbers as much as possible for advertising reasons. ???
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This may have been the case at one time, but I don't think it's how most panels are sold today. Most panels seem to be sold on a STC rating, which while completely unrealistic due to lack of solar heating taper, is at least physically possible to achieve. PTC is a more realistic rating and many panels do specify this rating as well.
I'm VERY glad to hear some standards have been created and sanity has been enforced in the solar industry...the last time I looked was years ago, when I was helping a friend solarize his house. There are other examples: EPA vehicle mileage estimates used to be wild "best case" numbers until the gas crisis hit in the early 70s and public sentiment forced them to review their testing technique, and to this day a computer's hard drive capacity is rated in powers of 10 rather than powers of 2 (the original usage, and more meaningful in a microprocessor context) because it looks better on paper.
You're spot on about how the maximum capacity works, but I can only think of Zero as a manufacturer that works this way. Zero didn't "have" to do it this way, they simply chose to.
Brammo Enertia Plus: 24s7p with 3.7V 10 Ah cells = 6.2 kWh nominal
Brammo Empulse: 28s9p with 3.7 10 Ah cells = 9.3 kWh nominal
Nissan LEAF: 96s2p with 3.75V 32.5 Ah cells = 23.4 kWh nominal; typically 22 kWh available.
BMW i3: 96s1p with 3.8V 60 Ah cells = 21.9 kWh nominal; typically 18 kWh available.
In 2010 Zero listed only the "maximum" capacity of their pack on their site (https://web.archive.org/web/20100210172444/http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s-specs.php). The current site still has an archive (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/2010/specs.php) of their older bikes. The 2010 packs were 14s24p 2.9 Ah = 53.2V nominal, 57.4V maximum 69.6 Ah = 3.7 kWh nominal, 4.0 kWh maximum (if charged to 4.1 volts per cell).
In 2011 and later years Zero broke out their battery pack into nominal and maximum capacity. They continue to rate their battery packs like this today; in 2012 Brammo began rating the Empulse in a maximum rating fashion as well.
I didn't know other mfrs were better behaved; it sounds like BMW and Nissan are playing some specsmanship with their numbers but Brammo is just now getting on board. I'd have to imagine a standard will come along pretty soon so all mfrs will have to give more representative numbers...I certainly hope so!
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BMW and Nissan both advertise the nominal capacity rating but preserve some capacity at the top and bottom, just like Zero does.
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It charged fully to 100% last night. I love this bike I just have a lot to learn about the battery management I guess. Thanks again for steering me to the bike. Overall it is a great machine.
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If the cells were somewhat non-equalized, which I expect is normal if the bike was not regularly charged for equalization, it could take more than one charge/equalization cycle to top-balance them.
Note that 100% charge does not mean you have 100% of the original capacity (whatever that may have been when new). Each cell will charge to the same state of charge level (voltage) as when it was new, but it will hold less capacity as it ages. Assume 100% charge gave you 40 miles when new. It might give you 35 miles a few years and thousands of miles later.
What I disagree with in guidance I've seen here, is whether to keep the bikes plugged in for extended periods of time when unused. While this does take care of potential cell disbalances and keeps the bike charged, I've seen research that is against topping-up just to keep the battery full. And that batteries should be stored at considerably less than fully charged, when not in use for long time. I guess, whether to keep it plugged in or to plug it in only once in a while, would depend on how bad the BMS and other components are in terms of unequally discharging individual cells. If there was no BMS and other components that are "on" when the bike is "off" that cause disbalances when the bike is not in use, then keeping it unplugged is better. If the BMS/other components are really draining lots and unevenly from each cell, then the bike should be periodically charged to avoid the battery going too low, and equalized every now and then when in storage, then drained half-way again for storage for the rest of the off-season. Should be allowed to fully charge and equalize one last time before using it on a regular basis in the Spring - to maintain max capacity (otherwise, charge may not be able to achieve 100% due to disbalanced cells)...
Also, it is probably better not to charge to 100% every time and not to discharge to 0 every time. Research suggests that batteries lose less of their lifetime capacity if they are used in a narrower range of their SoC but charged more often.
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Uk nissan Leafs were slow to sell. Ours was built in 2011 but sold late in 2013!
I found out after a lot id digging they were stored at 40% charge for several years.
The best performng UK Leaf batteries are owned by a taxi company who buy their cars used and have 2 of their own rapid chargers. They are charged daily but rarely from empty to full!
To give an exaple they now have 2 Leafs over 2 years old with over 100.000 miles still with not only a full 12 battery capcity bars but better than nominal Ahrs!
I can't find any Zeros close to that mileage and most seem to fail motors or accesories long before that. Pity as I would love one :)
Hope that helps.
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I can't find any Zeros close to that mileage and most seem to fail motors or accesories long before that.
You need to talk to Terry Herschner. He's not there yet but he's not far off....60,000 last I heard, and that was a few months ago. He puts miles on VERY fast.
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Yeah I know of him from Transport evolved;
https://transportevolved.com/
Lots to entertain EV enthusiasts there.
I once went coast to coast in America on a 650 Honda 4 back in the '80s so well done that guy.
Taxis are commercial vehicles though and it is intersting to me, having had long discusions with the proprieters of the UK's Cornwall taxi company that something they are doing is better for Leaf Lithium Ion batteries than even Nissan ever thought was possible, they mainly rapid charge and do it most days owning 2 rapids. Even Nissan's Mr Andy Palmer popped in to say hello there!