ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Jarrett on June 12, 2019, 09:00:34 PM
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I'm considering getting a Quik charger from Zero just to have a spare off board charger in the garage in case one of the on board chargers fail.
I assume I could use it even if the on board chargers fail? Can I use it on the FX and DSR? Can it be used in conjunction with the onboard charger on both bikes?
I've never seen one in use and not completely sure how it works. Anyone have any experience with them?
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I have one. I use it if I want to get back on the road a little more quickly than usual as it nearly doubles the amount of charging current. I don't use it often, but I have used it on occasion. It CAN be used without the onboard charger, but I've never used it that way. It plugs into a port down by the left side swing-arm pivot. The factory has a cable tie holding the cover in place; if you want to use it you'll have to cut the tie to remove the rubber cover.
I don't know if it works with the FX bikes or not. There are two models; one for the 2015 and earlier bikes, and one for the subsequent years. I don't believe it'll work with the SR/F. From what I understand, it isn't necessary as that bike already has a fast charge option. I could be mistaken (wouldn't be the first time).
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Yes. Yes. Yes.
Yes, but not me.
Zero's Official Owners Manual has always documented how to use its own Quick Chargers, pretty well. Look it up - it's fine.
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Chargers#Combining_Chargers
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I have one and it works fine and is a backup that can charge the bike by itself if needed.
I saw this video and thought of you. He is using a Hollywood Electric Elcon and not the Zero quick charger but it plugs into the same andersen connector. This guy's setup puts his full charge time to about 1.5 hours. Go to the 5:00 mark and you'll see where the zero quick charger would plug into your bike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVaWvk_MP-U
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I assume I could use it even if the on board chargers fail? Can I use it on the FX and DSR? Can it be used in conjunction with the onboard charger on both bikes?
I've never seen one in use and not completely sure how it works. Anyone have any experience with them?
Yes, I own seven (yeah, 7) of them. I carried two with me today (one in each saddlebag) to speed up the charging between Auburn, CA and Reno, NV. My SR with power tank can make the trip on a single charge if I ride slow, but I still get range anxiety. If you do this, more cables will be needed. Not needed to use the QC at home.
Yes, always use all the chargers you have up to the limit of 1C (same as battery capacity KWH). But you did not mention the year of your bikes. See here. (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=5)
At first, You will get a red fast flashing alarm light on the dash if you only run the QC and then it will not charge. Don't panic!!! But if you turn the bike's key on and then off (so the contactor will close) then you can charge with ONLY the Q-charger and the alarm will clear and charge normally.
If you're also using a working on-board charger, you do NOt have to mess with the key.
On the Q-Charger, look for the top light on it to light up to know you are fully charging. That will take a few seconds, perhaps 5 seconds or so after every thing is ready to work.
Bottom line is yes, it will work, with or without the on-board. Just remember to turn the bike on and off after the QC is first connected if you're not using the on-board.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have an Elcon 2500, the Zero Quiq and of course the onboard.
I use them all when on the road 5KW if all used with the Y cable, 4KW with onboard and Elcon.
My SR had 4 chargers replaced under warranty. Out of warranty now so only use the onboard if
using 240 volts. Use only the QuiQ to charge now when at home.
Only QuiQ will take 20%~25% longer to charge than the onboard, but, absolutely no worries about
having to replace the onboard again on my dime. I have been using the QuiQ for about 5 years with no
problems.
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Good info, thanks. I guess I need to check out the Elcon as well.
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Use only the QuiQ to charge now when at home. Only QuiQ will take 20%~25% longer to charge than the onboard, but, absolutely no worries about
having to replace the onboard again on my dime. I have been using the QuiQ for about 5 years with no
problems.
I always use two Q-chargers with the onboard--even when there is no hurry. That means the on-board is ran about 1/3 of the time, which reduces the amount of time it's used which means less heat inside the on-board for as long. So far, no problems with either of my on-board chargers.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Good info, thanks. I guess I need to check out the Elcon as well.
I don't see the Elcon charger being sold anywhere any more...
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I don't see the Elcon charger being sold anywhere any more...
Yeah, I just called Hollywood Electrics inquiring about the Elcon someone mentioned earlier in the thread that they sold and the guy basically gave me the, "what, are you stupid?" spiel.
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Yeah, I just called Hollywood Electrics inquiring about the Elcon someone mentioned earlier in the thread that they sold and the guy basically gave me the, "what, are you stupid?" spiel.
So despite the attitude, was he inferring there was something obviously better?
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I have never fully understood why the Hollywood Electrics no longer offers the Elcon 2500 as stationary equipment. It's heavy and bulky, so no longer competitive for carrying onboard, but the market for Zero-suitable chargers is so anemic, it's embarrassing.
There must be some commodity charger that weighs half as much, is IP-rated, has robust electrical protections, and produces a stable 3kW that can be programmed to work in Zero's voltage range with an enable line. Like the HK-J 3.3: https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm
And particularly, that someone can make and sell these at a reasonable profit, whether as a hobby or as a side business. Not as a startup or a high-performance prestige effort, but just as a utility.
Zero does have those Rapid Charge Modules on the SR/F, and I think those will cost around $1000 per unit to replace, so one could package one of those with a control board in a simple chassis for probably $1500.
Good EV chargers are not cheap, BTW. You're paying for QA'd engineered protection for the most expensive part of the motorcycle: the battery.
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There must be some commodity charger that weighs half as much, is IP-rated, has robust electrical protections, and produces a stable 3kW that can be programmed to work in Zero's voltage range with an enable line.
Any comments on this charger? (https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=317) Do you know anybody who has tried it?
BTW, could it be the same one that is used in the older charge tanks?
-Don- Reno, NV
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So despite the attitude, was he inferring there was something obviously better?
No.
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There must be some commodity charger that weighs half as much, is IP-rated, has robust electrical protections, and produces a stable 3kW that can be programmed to work in Zero's voltage range with an enable line.
Any comments on this charger? (https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=317) Do you know anybody who has tried it?
BTW, could it be the same one that is used in the older charge tanks?
It is the same basic design as observed on the earlier 2.5 kW charge tanks. It may be the same product but is possibly a variant in some way. Whatever an OEM like Zero orders probably has additional QA and customizations.
I believe this generic model been tested by a few people with a Zero. Make sure it’s programmed for the Zero voltage range, and also it won’t trigger charge enable circuitry on its own.
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The video was showing an Elcon option but the main purpose was to show where the Andersen plug was on a FXS.
I had called Hollywood Electrics a while back and asked about Elcons and Diginows and was told to go with the charge tank option since it is now better than it was in 2017. That wasn't really what I wanted to hear but that was their opinion at the time.
As for the Elcons they come up for sale from time to time on here and Ebay as people do go with the Diginows and charge tank options.
Do note that the Elcons had some water resistance but the Zero Quiq chargers do not and should only be used under covered locations.
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The Zero Quick Chargers should be ingress rated IP65 which makes them reasonable to use in the weather, and I’ve heard of no failures of them.
Do you have information I don’t? Or remember a report that I don’t.
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Nope, no report. I seem to remember years ago, pre HE Elcons someone on here had mounted one on the side and had trouble. The elcons were said to be more weather resistant and of course were more powerful and became the choice for the touring crowd.
If you say they are fine for use in the rain then people can go with that.
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It is the same basic design as observed on the earlier 2.5 kW charge tanks. It may be the same product but is possibly a variant in some way. Whatever an OEM like Zero orders probably has additional QA and customizations.
I believe this generic model been tested by a few people with a Zero. Make sure it’s programmed for the Zero voltage range, and also it won’t trigger charge enable circuitry on its own.
If it does, what happens, and how is that prevented?
I hear some of these Ev chargers can easily run different programs. I would like to see if I can program it somehow to charge to 60% SOC (103 Volts) as well as 100% (116.2 VDC) somehow.
I really have no experience with these aftermarket EV chargers (yet). A bit more complicated than I expected, when I read about some of the EV chargers.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yeah, that's a fair recommendation - the Delta-Q QuiQ 1000 charger is rated at IP66:
https://delta-q.com/product/quiq-1000-industrial-battery-charger/ (https://delta-q.com/product/quiq-1000-industrial-battery-charger/)
The Elcon PFC 2500 is only rated for IP46, though:
https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/7344653/7638094.htm (https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/7344653/7638094.htm)
IP66 means dust-tight and for water means "powerful water jets" per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code), but IP rating is determined by a lab and is not a long-term "for the life of the component" test. So you could subject it to it sometimes and it's tested for that, but riding a motorcycle at high speed with an exposed charger is beyond that test.
At least shroud the charger to ablate direct rain impact, but most owners seem to be placing one in each Givi 21L side case.
IP68 is preferable if you can get it, but pricier, and DigiNow says their equipment is rated IP67 per the lab test.
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It is the same basic design as observed on the earlier 2.5 kW charge tanks. It may be the same product but is possibly a variant in some way. Whatever an OEM like Zero orders probably has additional QA and customizations.
I believe this generic model been tested by a few people with a Zero. Make sure it’s programmed for the Zero voltage range, and also it won’t trigger charge enable circuitry on its own.
I hear some of these Ev chargers can easily run different programs. I would like to see if I can program it somehow to charge to 60% SOC (103 Volts) as well as 100% (116.2 VDC) somehow.
I really have no experience with these aftermarket EV chargers (yet). A bit more complicated than I expected, when I read about some of the EV chargers.
This bothers me: If you fish around for a "deal" in aftermarket chargers, but intend to program a charger against your Zero with its extremely expensive battery and onboard systems, I have to assume you're just not prepared to pay for someone's valuable time, because it'll take quite some reading and experimentation and time to confirm a reasonably-safe basic result.
The 2.5kW PFC charger linked above at EVWest has a programmable interface by USB-to-serial, so it's a lot like the MBB or other embedded device firmware customization, just particular to charger controller operation.
The programming for these chargers varies considerably, but the very basic elements one can expect are that you're taking a CC-CV charger and changing the parameters in which that operates. BUT you need to ask the vendor specifically whether what you're buying will work fine in the voltage range of the Zero first, and then you go in and set the target voltage for 100% SoC or 80% SoC or whatever.
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It is the same basic design as observed on the earlier 2.5 kW charge tanks. It may be the same product but is possibly a variant in some way. Whatever an OEM like Zero orders probably has additional QA and customizations.
I believe this generic model been tested by a few people with a Zero. Make sure it’s programmed for the Zero voltage range, and also it won’t trigger charge enable circuitry on its own.
If it does, what happens, and how is that prevented?
I think you've misinterpreted what I was trying to communicate:
What I mean is the "communication" that Zero uses over the Accessory Charging Port signal pins for the external charger to indicate that it is present (100kOhm load, more or less, rated for full 116V).
This is what makes sure that when you key the bike off, the bike stays in charge mode even if/when the onboard charger turns off.
And I should be clear that applying a charger to a bike with the contactor open has at least a risk of burning out the BMS' precharge circuit and rendering your bike inoperable. So it's actually kind of important if you want to use a charger casually ("fire and forget") that it communicate with the bike like this, or over CANBus, or that you keep the bike keyed on and prevent it from going to sleep after 30 minutes (which it will do without input).
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This bothers me: If you fish around for a "deal" in aftermarket chargers, but intend to program a charger against your Zero with its extremely expensive battery and onboard systems, I have to assume you're just not prepared to pay for someone's valuable time, because it'll take quite some reading and experimentation and time to confirm a reasonably-safe basic result.
The 2.5kW PFC charger linked above at EVWest has a programmable interface by USB-to-serial, so it's a lot like the MBB or other embedded device firmware customization, just particular to charger controller operation.
The programming for these chargers varies considerably, but the very basic elements one can expect are that you're taking a CC-CV charger and changing the parameters in which that operates. BUT you need to ask the vendor specifically whether what you're buying will work fine in the voltage range of the Zero first, and then you go in and set the target voltage for 100% SoC or 80% SoC or whatever.
I won't jump into anything until I am sure of all the facts. I am now just trying to learn a bit about EV chargers as well as the bike. I know I have a ways to go to understand it all.
I have made no decisions on anything yet.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Bottom line is yes, it will work, with or without the on-board. Just remember to turn the bike on and off after the QC is first connected if you're not using the on-board.
If the on-board charger fails, and you need to turn the key to use this off-board charger, do the lights turn on? Is there a way to disable? Is it healthy to have them on in the garage, or hot sun, for hours on end?
PittCaleb
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If the on-board charger fails, and you need to turn the key to use this off-board charger, do the lights turn on? Is there a way to disable? Is it healthy to have them on in the garage, or hot sun, for hours on end?
PittCaleb
You connect up the QC and then:
0. Bike is in alarm.
1. Turn on key for a few seconds.
2. Turn OFF key and leave it off. Alarm is gone.
3.Now it will start charging.
IOW, the bike is OFF while charging.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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This bothers me: If you fish around for a "deal" in aftermarket chargers, but intend to program a charger against your Zero with its extremely expensive battery and onboard systems, I have to assume you're just not prepared to pay for someone's valuable time, because it'll take quite some reading and experimentation and time to confirm a reasonably-safe basic result.
The 2.5kW PFC charger linked above at EVWest has a programmable interface by USB-to-serial, so it's a lot like the MBB or other embedded device firmware customization, just particular to charger controller operation.
The programming for these chargers varies considerably, but the very basic elements one can expect are that you're taking a CC-CV charger and changing the parameters in which that operates. BUT you need to ask the vendor specifically whether what you're buying will work fine in the voltage range of the Zero first, and then you go in and set the target voltage for 100% SoC or 80% SoC or whatever.
I have sent a few emails to Elcon WRT all this. They say perhaps the best way is to only charge to 90% SOC (112 VDC max) with their charger and then let the onboard take over for the last ten percent, for both safety and battery balancing. This will require no CANBUS signal from the bike.
But they say they can also build one that works with the bike's CANBUS that will charge to 100%.
I should soon be getting more emails from them.
BTW, I went down to their place in Sacramento. (https://www.elconchargers.com/index.html) A rather dumpy building in a dumpy area, but they say it's very rare for them to get any walk-in customers and they really have nothing there to see.
BTW, there are 20 J-1772's (ChargePoint) just across the street at the CA Lotto Building (rather large building with a large parking lot).
Around half of them (ten) were in use.
Any comments on the charging to 90% SOC?
-Don- Auburn, CA