ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: domingo3 on August 06, 2018, 08:46:18 PM
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Is there a battery life issue with level 1 charging, or am I misinterpreting what is being said here?
"Paschel said Zero Motorcycles can be plugged into any 110 outlet nationwide, although the batteries last longer if charged on a traditional charging station."
From the article https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/08/05/electric-motorcycles-are-already-here-and-likely-more-are-coming.html
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Except for that quote, it was a nice article I thought. Most likely the writer misunderstood. Based on everything I’ve read or heard about EVs, slow charging rates are best for battery longevity.
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The CEO was not misquoted, based on other evidence. Charging with the onboard charger is essentially trickle charging that warms the battery for a longer period of time than a shorter charge at a higher rate, and this is what’s been referred to lately in some testing results.
This is all unconfirmed insider secondhand reports but these reports have been consistent for the last 12-18 months or so.
The annual rate of sales growth cited is too high, and inconsistent with the 2021 projection, though.
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The CEO was not misquoted, based on other evidence. Charging with the onboard charger is essentially trickle charging that warms the battery for a longer period of time than a shorter charge at a higher rate, and this is what’s been referred to lately in some testing results.
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Sorry. Not as experienced with the Tapatalk system as you guys[emoji846].
Wanted to say...does this new evidence suggest the best way to charge your Tesla then, is via The Supercharger rather than Level 2? Since they have active battery cooling perhaps it does t matter.
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The CEO was not misquoted, based on other evidence. Charging with the onboard charger is essentially trickle charging that warms the battery for a longer period of time than a shorter charge at a higher rate, and this is what’s been referred to lately in some testing results.
This makes me wonder if regenerative charging, which is low power, also shortens battery life.
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The CEO was not misquoted, based on other evidence. Charging with the onboard charger is essentially trickle charging that warms the battery for a longer period of time than a shorter charge at a higher rate, and this is what’s been referred to lately in some testing results.
This makes me wonder if regenerative charging, which is low power, also shortens battery life.
No.
You should be more concerned about whether riding the motorcycle shortens battery life, because regeneration only happens in the middle of a much more intense current use.
That’s a joke of course.
Just ride the damn bike.
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Ouch.
Edit: I do get it that these issues are mainly theoretical.
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The CEO was not misquoted, based on other evidence. Charging with the onboard charger is essentially trickle charging that warms the battery for a longer period of time than a shorter charge at a higher rate, and this is what’s been referred to lately in some testing results.
This makes me wonder if regenerative charging, which is low power, also shortens battery life.
these arguments are akin to arguing if parking a typical motorcycle ages the gasoline... of course it does. the gasoline gets older. VOCs come off and it has less power. etc...
but in the real world, there is no difference. its all theory.
that said, regen is actually high level charging, for a short amount of time. nothing wrong with it.
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I do remember seeing a while back that Tesla (which gathers telemetric, anonymous data from all cars) has discovered that charging at the superchargers either has no impact on battery capacity, or may even be slightly beneficial in helping the batteries maintain their capacity.
But yeah, WAAAAY too much brainpower is being wasted on trying to eke out as much battery life as possible. The early Nissan Leafs (Leaves?) had a poorly-designed battery pack, which would overheat on a regular basis and offered very little battery life, and that's got a lot of people worried to this day, but properly-designed EV battery packs just don't have that problem. Ride the bike. Recharge it when it's convenient, all night overnight is probably very convenient. You're not going to hurt the battery pack unless you do something way, way outside the box -- and even then, the BMS won't let you do any serious damage for 1000s of charge cycles.
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The CEO was not misquoted, based on other evidence. Charging with the onboard charger is essentially trickle charging that warms the battery for a longer period of time than a shorter charge at a higher rate, and this is what’s been referred to lately in some testing results.
This makes me wonder if regenerative charging, which is low power, also shortens battery life.
these arguments are akin to arguing if parking a typical motorcycle ages the gasoline... of course it does. the gasoline gets older. VOCs come off and it has less power. etc...
but in the real world, there is no difference. its all theory.
that said, regen is actually high level charging, for a short amount of time. nothing wrong with it.
At the risk of getting ridiculed further, I'll add this experience:
I enjoyed my 2018 7.2S in the southern Appalachians recently, about 300 miles total. 10- 15% grades for up to 3+ miles are common. Coasting down such a grade at high speed I'd be lucky to regain almost 1% of charge, usually less, and on gentler grades or at low speeds much less, more like 0.2% during the course of 5-10 minutes.
Edit: to be clear, I’m referring to regen while coasting, not the higher rate regen during braking.
By comparison, plugging into 110v household outlet generates 1% every 3 minutes.
Just coasting on the flats the recharge must be nearly negligible. I'm not smart enough to know the difference between high and low charging, but that must be very low.
No I'm not going to turn off regen braking, fret futilely if I inadvertently charge to 100% (whatever 100% means) instead of 80% (whatever 80% means), or ride less than all I can to protect the diva battery. I'm just curious.
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I recall reading on one of my other EV forums that fast charging exposes the batteries to the exchange process for a less period of time and that is better for longevity than a battery exposed for long periods. I "fast" charged yesterday for 15 mins. I have to think this has got to be less impact than a slow charger for a 3 hr period.
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I recall reading on one of my other EV forums that fast charging exposes the batteries to the exchange process for a less period of time and that is better for longevity than a battery exposed for long periods. I "fast" charged yesterday for 15 mins. I have to think this has got to be less impact than a slow charger for a 3 hr period.
This is a more accurate interpretation ("exposes the batteries to the exchange process for a shorter period of time") of what I've been hearing than my phrasing in terms of heat production. It's a dynamic electrochemical condition worth keeping shorter (up to the point where the heat production from a higher rate of charge impacts the battery in other ways).
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Now Diginow just needs to get their prices down. The current pricing is a little too rich for my taste.
SuperCharger v2.5 3.3kW one unit in the pan = $2035 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 6.6kW dual units in the pan = $2425 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 9.9kW triple units in the pan = $3435 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 3.3kW one unit bare (for FXS owners) = $1735 + shipping
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No, DigiNow needs to communicate their value more.
Or, alternatively, DigiNow needs to make their product more valuable by making it more usable, serviceable, and flexible.
If you think a cheaper, unconfigured charger is a better value than DigiNow's, they've done a poor job of convincing you of what they're doing.
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All excellent points, but what about the (configurable?) charging system described in this thread which the OP claims is exactly like the Elcon HK-J-H132-32, 3.3KW UHF CAN bus charger and which can be had for under $1,000. Is this the real deal or just fake news? If this is the wrong place to post this topic, please kindly let me know.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8087.0
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This is off-topic for sure.
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I am going to try and address several comments.
As Far as Tesla saying that using Supercharger is better:
Not sure if this is still the case, opinions seem to change but,
Tesla would begin to limit the speed of the Supercharger after
a number of sessions. The claim was that it was for battery life.
I believe that All " Native " Tesla charging is DC.
From Las Year:
https://electrek.co/2017/05/07/tesla-limits-supercharging-speed-number-charges/
Nissan has also come under fire for slowing charge rate after the first or second
fast charge on a trip. Their claim, again is because of battery heat generation.
Nissan Leaf uses passive cooling until the 2019 Model
As far as trickle vs fast, while all charging and discharging creates heat,
I believe that the longer slow charge sessions create less heat. This is
and has been the belief for as long as I can rember for all battery charging,
not just for EVs. I live in Las Vegas where ( on average ) the temperature is above
100 degrees more than 20% of the year, with the average high temperature closer
to 110 from May through September. This year, it was 113 degrees on the last day of spring.
I have been driving / riding EVs for more than a decade. I also run my house on
Solar and Batteries ( Big Lead Acid batteries ), and I have never noticed any heat related battery issues
I got my 2013 FX at about a year old. Maximum battery level was generally 95% at the time.
I could coax it to 100% but the return was negligible so didn't do it often. Today, it is still 90%~95%
on a full charge. Most if it's life it has charged from the onboard 650 watt charger with addition
of a Quik or Elcon charge now and then.
As far as " Value ", I don't think that anyone is disputing the Value of the SuperCharger,
just wishing that it was less expensive. There are always "options" for DIY, but, Brandon has put
the time effort and energy into making this as much of a plug and play as possible.
You are not just paying for the parts, but his time as well.
Regeneration, as mentioned, is a " fast(er) charge of a shorter duration. In most everyday
situations, you are not in a situation where this becomes an issue. Harlan told me years back
that they did not use regeneration on the race bikes. I believe that heat was one of the reasons.
Lastly, I agree.
Just Ride It
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I'm still hoping to read an expert's comments on coasting regen, which may last for just a few seconds as you coast in slowing traffic, or can go on for many minutes in the mountains, but in either case typically is low power and thus, based on other info from experts on this thread, seems to be harmful to battery longevity.
In other words, if you don't need the absolute maximum range on each charge, the best option for battery longevity may be to to set up the custom option with zero % coasting regen and brake as necessary (high power regen while braking). FWIW, that would also help keep tailgaters at bay in stop and go traffic, and the hypermilers can do the pulse coast thing with extra satisfaction that they are prolonging battery life.
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I use 0% coasting regen and 100% braking regen, as do many on here, for efficiency. Occasionally I set coasting regen to 20% or 30% for a passenger and/or in traffic for a less step-wise slowdown transition.
I also use a throttle lock while cruising on the highway to lock in a specific level of current to minimize wasteful pulsing of power and heat.
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Don't forget Zero has built in safety margins.
I will never give up engine braking while riding.
Tried it, but going in to corners in 'neutral' is.....
I like theory craft, but riding is most important.
Want to ride as any ICE bike, only with much better power train.
On top of it: getting some energy back is also part of fun on a Zero, even if it's little, good to get something back after wasting it to get on speed!
Just drive is most important, everything what moves has wear, don't waste to much time on it.
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On top of it: getting some energy back is also part of fun on a Zero, even if it's little, good to get something back after wasting it to get on speed!
There have been a few times, very infrequent but it does happen, where after a long coast down a fairly steep grade, my SoC indicator has ticked UP a point. If you see me with a shit-eating grin under my helmet, it's probably just happened.
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On top of it: getting some energy back is also part of fun on a Zero, even if it's little, good to get something back after wasting it to get on speed!
There have been a few times, very infrequent but it does happen, where after a long coast down a fairly steep grade, my SoC indicator has ticked UP a point. If you see me with a shit-eating grin under my helmet, it's probably just happened.
That has happened to me once or twice, too. But in my mind, coasting with the regen tuned off, except when braking, is more efficient and fits my method of riding better. (Besides it reminds me of my first car, a 1958 DKW Junior that had a free-wheeling clutch that would disconnect from the drive train on a trailing throttle to allow you to coast downhill. We used to call that "Mexican overdrive" years ago. ;) )
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On top of it: getting some energy back is also part of fun on a Zero, even if it's little, good to get something back after wasting it to get on speed!
There have been a few times, very infrequent but it does happen, where after a long coast down a fairly steep grade, my SoC indicator has ticked UP a point. If you see me with a shit-eating grin under my helmet, it's probably just happened.
My SR can gain 3-5% just by exiting a freeway and riding at slow speeds. Just another new development.
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