ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: ZeroSinMA on April 20, 2012, 08:57:50 PM
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I've speculated here that if and when the Brammo Empulse ever ships it will either have fewer features or a higher price than originally advertised. Based on the spec released yesterday it looks like Brammo kept all of the features they promised but notice they are not talking about the price.
On the Brammo web site, the pre-order page says: "Price: TBA"
Are folks pre-ordering the bike without knowing how much it will cost? That's crazy.
In this thread we try to estimate how much the final MSRP will be given that the bike has a gearbox, a water cooled motor, 1.4KW more battery capacity and other costly features that the Zero doesn't have, not to mention the fact that Zero has years of production experience to figure out ways to shave cost of goods off their bikes to improve margins. Even with years of experience it's rumored that Zero makes at best $2500 or less than 20% gross margin on each Zero S.
Unless Brammo plans to sell every Empulse at a loss, expect it to cost > $16k. I'm going to guess: $16,995 MSRP.
Anyone else?
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Zero S is 7.9 kWh, so the Empulse pack is 1.4 kWh more.
On the Brammo Owner's Forum we've speculated cost at $17-18k. They will have two models, an Empulse R with fancy bits and possibly a fairing, and the standard Empulse which is probably decontented slightly.
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Zero S is 7.9 kWh, so the Empulse pack is 1.4 kWh more.
On the Brammo Owner's Forum we've speculated cost at $17-18k. They will have two models, an Empulse R with fancy bits and possibly a fairing, and the standard Empulse which is probably decontented slightly.
So Empulse ~$16k and Empulse R ~$18K?
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That's a good ballpark guess. It could be easily be $1000 higher .. we'll hopefully see around May 8 timeframe.
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That's a good ballpark guess. It could be easily be $1000 higher .. we'll hopefully see around May 8 timeframe.
I've been watching carefully because I plan to upgrade from my 2011 Zero S to either a 2012 Zero S ZF9 or a Brammo Empulse.
Best case, if I buy a BE for $16K I'm paying 12.5% more for 23% more weight and 6% more range that should be 12% more range (BE delivers 43 kWh/lb vs Zero 38 kWh/lb).
If we're paying for range, it's a no-brainer, isn't it? To be $/mile range equivalent the BE cannot cost more than $15,680.
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Depends on how you ride. At highway speeds (70 mph), the Empulse R claims 56 miles of range, vs the 43.5 miles the S ZF9 claims (29% better range from 18% more battery). Note that the base Empulse and the Empulse R may have different highway ranges if the Empulse R benefits from an aero fairing.
I do most of my riding between 45-55 mph, and I see a noticeable difference in range when I tuck in. I imagine an aero fairing would do much better. I get about 60-70 miles of range in my typical riding, I would imagine with an Empulse R I would see around 20-25% longer range.
I don't really view it as $/mile though - the S has "enough" range for my around-town needs, it's more a question of whether the Empulse has extra capabilities that I would use. The fast charger makes limited touring *possible* if not ideal, assuming you can find a level 2 charger; very few installed in my area now, but that may change in the next couple of years. The extra range at high speeds would make trips down to visit mom (80 miles away on 50-65 mph roads) possible, even if a short layover was required halfway between. The extra performance? I wouldn't turn it down, but I don't do track days and I can already ride the Zero faster than I should on public streets. It's bragging rights and sex appeal, which are fine by me.
Keep in mind by the time Brammo is building the Empulses (and clears out their preorder list), Zero may be getting ready to reveal their 2013 bikes. Noone knows what those will look like - surely they will continue to use the EIG cells, but Brammo has a supposed battery advantage now.
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Are you also considering riding position/stile?.
The empulse has been designed (both models) with a very agressive racing concept in mind...not sure what your experience is with racing bikes (I owned 3), but the riding stile/position + comfort -if there is any- has nothing to do with the Zero ZF models.
Zero is what we call in Europe a "F" model, while Brammo is an "R" one
Just a thought...
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I do most of my riding between 45-55 mph, and I see a noticeable difference in range when I tuck in.
Hi proto, I wonder if you could quantify "noticeable difference" and "tuck in"? Is this "lie flat on the tank" type tucking, or something a little more suitable for a moderate highway ride? How much of the 20-25% you predict with a faired Empulse do you see with tucking on the Zero?
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Maybe 5-10% difference in range. If I have a long straight it's also noticeable as I can accelerate by tucking in, or decelerate by sitting up (while keeping the accelerator held steady).
About as far as I go with tucking is to scoot my butt back as far as I can and bring my head on the same vertical plane as the bars .. maybe 12" above. Definitely not laying flat on the tank.
From the highway range figures I guess Empulse R has about 80-85% as much drag as Zero. Combine with 18% more battery, slightly lower drivetrain efficiency, and slightly better motor efficiency to get 27% more highway range @ 70 mph.
Ish. Lots of hand-waving there.
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I would agree with these assumptions, as there is some logic behind, but still see some vaporware in their specs...
Not sure if this is the right wording, but the bars on a raging bike are positioned underneath/below the stem. This is something + the bike geometry, that makes the main difference between a "F" bike and a "R" one...and yes, you lie flat on the tank (there are two main purposes for this, one is the tucking benefit, and the other one is to concentrate the weight a bit more on the front wheel).
Have you ever noticed in a bike race that some pilots when approaching a curve place one of their legs out of their footrest?
stretching their leg? ;)
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The empulse has been designed (both models) with a very agressive racing concept in mind...not sure what your experience is with racing bikes (I owned 3), but the riding stile/position + comfort -if there is any- has nothing to do with the Zero ZF models.
Zero is what we call in Europe a "F" model, while Brammo is an "R" one
Just a thought...
You are probably looking at videos of the prototype Empulse, which had clip-ons instead of handlebars. The production Empulse has handlebars and the rider position is much more upright than the prototype. No need to be a tank-hugger.
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I have looked at videos & pictures and the riding position is a racing one...unless they are offering a different model of the advertised one.
Is there any other site/blog to see the final model you mentioned?
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Until May 8, no one knows what the production model looks like, because that is when it is scheduled to be unveiled. However, the existing photos and videos show a bike with clip-ons. Brammo has since said that the Empulse will come with handlebars that allow a more upright position. This has been discussed, at length, over on the Brammo forum, if you're interested: brammoforum.com
Of course, anyone can customize their bike as they see fit.
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wouldnt mind to try a lower and sportier setup on my Zero S for a change. primarily to reduce drag.
as for the pricing -- it will be a market determined pricing and not to cover potential production costs. With that they need to see how position themselves etc. etc. anyway, they will be the experts. studying these forums, know some early adopters might pay premium.
my 2 cents.
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With all due respect I do not get it.
Why do they show a bike (and advertize it), that in the end it will be totally different?
Riding position on a bike is a big deal -this is leaving aside the final performance, which is also a big factor because of drag.
Probably this is not the right place to raise this business -as you nicely pointed out- but, this is my opinion.
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With all due respect I do not get it.
It's been frustrating as well...
Why do they show a bike (and advertize it), that in the end it will be totally different?
The bike they've been showing was announced (http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/15/brammo-announces-the-empulse-a-100-mph-naked-streetfighter-wit/) two years ago without a gearbox and it has taken them that 2 years of engineering to deliver on those promises, including redesigning it from the prototype to include a gearbox.
That doesn't necessarily explain the change in handlebars, though, but since the prototype has been shown for 2 years while they've been redesigning it I don't think anyone familiar with the bike will be surprised that the final form has some changes (not the least of which are clutch and shift levers and a bulge next to the engine). The early model was clearly a "prototype" and not a "marketing sample".
Luckily, I've only been following this saga for the past month or so, so I haven't had to deal with the long wait that the original fans have had to endure.
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The original advertising wasn't "use this bike on a track, it'll kick a 600cc RR's ass". It was 100 mph, 100 miles. In short.. a pretty rough bounds of the performance many of us would like in a motorcycle, or at least the closest thing yet on a mainstream electric bike. Certainly well beyond anything mainstream electric bikes of 2 years ago offered, which was 60-70 mph / 30 miles range.
Clipons and sportbike ergonomics are sexy to look at, a pain in the ass in actual practice. Some people will want that, and the Empulse will have clipons as an option. They may even be default for the Empulse R. I suspect most Empulse buyers will opt for the higher bars and the less aggressive pegs.
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This business reminds me what happened with Mercedes at the end of the 80's when they were working on the 500 "series" model for such a long time (they wanted to make it perfect), and when they actually launched the car, the design was obsolete so they have to change the whole thing :o
Not the same case -no question-, but just a little of history...it is really amazing how things have change in NPD (for the good, and the bad)
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This brings to mind a phrase from my work life, that goes something like this :
"There comes a point in every project when it's time to shoot the engineer and start production." :)
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It is hard to put a price tag on a bike without knowing its capabilities, but if it has a 0-60 of 3.5 seconds and then accelerates fast up to 95 mph, does 50 miles range or more at 75 mph (actual), I would definitely be interested. I think they will offer it at $15,995. I would still wait to see the 2013 Zero before buying a Brammo. Also, unless a local dealer sold Brammo, I still wouldn't buy one. What I am hoping is that Zero puts out a bike that performs as I indicated for 2013.
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95 mph and 0-60 in 3.5s will either require a multi-gear transmission, or a much more powerful motor.
The 2012 Zeros should do 0-60 in about 9s if the motor response wasn't blunted below 20 mph. Double the power and bump up the gearing slightly and it should be able to do 0-60 in about 4.5s.
The Empulse R at least should do 50+ miles at 75 mph.
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70 - 70MPH increases drag by 14.8%.
The Empulse R does 56m@70MPH which is only 12% more range than 50.
So, if air resistance is its only drain at speed then it would come up short, but I'm guessing it is only part of the equation and so it depends on how the other terms fair from 70 to 75.
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$16,995. Watch the YouTube video. 0-60 is just over 5 sec. Needs a special plug like the Volt.
Brammo Empulse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr98sLX_m8o#ws)
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If they didn't have to go to that big plug, why did they? It's a deal breaker for me. Hard enough to find a 110 outlet. I'll stick with the Zero.
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If they didn't have to go to that big plug, why did they? It's a deal breaker for me. Hard enough to find a 110 outlet. I'll stick with the Zero.
That "big plug" is the industry standard for EVs, the J1772, and it allows for Level 2 charging. Using it, you could charge the Empulse from empty to full in 3.5 hours vs. 8 hours if you used a 120V outlet. Also, the Empulse specs indicate that it comes with a 120V adapter, standard.
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I actually would like to have that "big plug" on my Zero and ability to quickly charge the battery anywhere a charging station is available.
Regardless, I don't think Empulse R adds $5k of value over Zero S ZF9. And it still is pretty much "vaporware" since no machines have shipped yet. Oh, and why do they use a chain and not a belt?
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My guess is that a chain is used on the Empulse for a number of reasons. It is less expensive, readily available, easy to change the gearing and the sport bike market expects chain drive. The last one may be the most compelling reason for Brammo to use a chain on the Empulse.
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Maybe they could stick a Two Brothers exhaust on there somewhere too. LOL. I'll reserve judgement about the clutch until I see it in action, but I can't imagine someone being able to acclerate faster with a clutch than the controller could program it with the flip of a switch. A few years ago, they outlawed automatic transmissions and CVTs in Formula 1 cars cause it would give the user an unfair advantage. I think they will change their mind about the chain too. A big part of the noise from the video I saw and heard was chain noise.
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I'll reserve judgement about the clutch until I see it in action, but I can't imagine someone being able to acclerate faster with a clutch than the controller could program it with the flip of a switch.
What are you imagining that the controller would program? You need gears to get this acceleration. How is the controller going to program away the need for gears?
A few years ago, they outlawed automatic transmissions and CVTs in Formula 1 cars cause it would give the user an unfair advantage.
An automatic transmission is different - at least it has gears. But, single speed EV bikes are not going to get this acceleration for a number of years unless they add gears. And a clutch and manual gear shift is the lightest and cheapest and most efficient way to add that.
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They could have gone to a CVT and forgot the gears to save weight and expense, then just mapped out the fastest safe acceleration possible for the motor in sport mode.
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An automatic transmission is different - at least it has gears. But, single speed EV bikes are not going to get this acceleration for a number of years unless they add gears. And a clutch and manual gear shift is the lightest and cheapest and most efficient way to add that.
Well, there's one other way -- lower the direct-drive gearing and up the motor voltage. I think racing EVs run higher pack voltages for this (and perhaps other) reasons. For street EVs, though, the battery tech is going to have to advance a bit to get good range AND increased voltage.
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The problem is how to have both good top speed and standing start torque. The reason that the car guys can do it is because the have very high motor voltages which gives the motor top end RPM and then they have a better gear ratio for starting torque.
For electric motorcycles, you really need well over 100 volts to have something that does both well. So far, most of them just haven't got there yet, but they will.
Above is from Neal in the Brammo thread. This sounds like the way to go to keep things simple and not bother with a gear box.
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An automatic transmission is different - at least it has gears. But, single speed EV bikes are not going to get this acceleration for a number of years unless they add gears. And a clutch and manual gear shift is the lightest and cheapest and most efficient way to add that.
Well, there's one other way -- lower the direct-drive gearing and up the motor voltage. I think racing EVs run higher pack voltages for this (and perhaps other) reasons. For street EVs, though, the battery tech is going to have to advance a bit to get good range AND increased voltage.
That option would run afoul of my "for a number of years" disclaimer (which is specifically why I had put that disclaimer in there), eh? ;)
I realize that we will eventually have other solutions, but the post that I was responding to was claiming that a clutch "[couldn't accelerate faster than] the controller could program it with the flip of a switch". What programming is that? On today's EV bike engines and today's battery technology?
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What are you imagining that the controller would program? You need gears to get this acceleration. How is the controller going to program away the need for gears?
Maybe he's talking about an automated clutch transmission. Honda uses a similar system for some of their bikes.
Re: higher voltage street bikes, both the KTM e-freeride and the BRD Redshift SM / MX bikes use a significantly higher voltage. KTM is 300+ volts, can't find a spec for the BRD but it's also quite high. Neither of these bikes are shipping yet.
Not sure what the hold up is. Possibly some components are more expensive (charger, motor controller), the battery tech should be easy.
Eg Zero's current config ZF9 is 18s6p of 3.7v 20Ah cells, for a total of 66v 120Ah. That could easily be arranged as 108s1p for a total of 400v 20Ah, or 54s2p 200v 40Ah.
Car EVs typically operate at hundreds of volts, including hybrids. 2000 Honda Insight, 144v, 1998 NHW10 Toyota Prius 288v.
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Another month and nothing from Brammo. Supposedly Brammo put some Empulses out there for review by the motorcycle magazines, but all I can find is old stuff from over 2 months ago announcing the release date. Has anybody heard anything? It sounds pretty good on paper 0-60 in 5+ sec. 100+ mph, 115 mi range...everything but the price, that is, but we should be getting reviews, marketing, and some dealers by now.
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Been hibernating? ;)
Most of the Brammo news gets shared and discussed over on the Brammo Owners Forum - brammoforum.com - but pricing has been announced, as have dates for journalist reviews and the first production models to those on the waiting list. A couple of videos, too.
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I sense restlessness over at the Brammo owners forum. You would think after 2 years of waiting for the Empulse, they would be used to it by now. LOL
This is the month it is all supposed to come together...models built and shipped.
It seems like progress comes in fits and starts perhaps as a tranche of financing is applied to the project...then nothing for some time. I wonder if they have enough money to get a critical mass of bikes out? Apparently they have a bunch of pre-orders. Still, if they are producing them now, you would think they would use this as an opportunity for some free exposure in the press. The tension mounts. Maybe they can get Pres. Obama to go to Ashland and sing the praises of small start-up companies and green energy with the first Empulse rolling off the assembly line in the background. Motorcycles are way sexier than solar panels anyway. Plus the Chinese aren't making anything even close to an Empulse...yet.
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I had pre-ordered an Empulse two years ago this July. I was informed that I would be receiving an email 90 days before my bike would be delivered to my dealer for purchase. Upon receiving the message I was to visit my dealer and give them a $500 (or was it $1000?) deposit to secure the sale. I would then be able to purchase the bike after it arrived in 90 days. I still have not received any messages from Brammo about when this might happen. In the meantime..........I Zeroed out.
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This Brammo doesn't make any sense to me, for the following reasons:
-Why try to match the performance of a regular bike when the price of the technology still doesn't allow it (half the power for double the price of a similar gasoline bike)
-Why increase the complexity and therefore maintenance cost (Clutch, gearbox), when the whole purpose of electric bikes is cheap running cost and low maintenance.
Zero is not trying to compete with gas bikes. Instead they are pushing the strength of the technology they have:
-Less power, so make a bike that will excel in the city: keep the bike small and nimble for easy maneuvering.
-The batteries are still expensive, so make the bike almost free to maintain (no clutch, gearbox, chain ect...)
I think Zero is pushing the strength that the electric technology offers. Brammo is trying to compete with gasoline bikes, and cannot win!
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I have similar thoughts. But then I am not Brammo and it is their money. So if they want to follow that path, I say good luck to them and I really hope it works out they way they wish. I just wish I had the opportunity to buy the original concept Empulse, with the 10 kWh battery and the direct drive system. I am sure I would have been very happy with that bike.
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I agree that it is a striking tradeoff, but I need more range than anything that Zero has put out yet and the Empulse seems to provide that on paper. For me, it is the right formula.
High up on my want, but not need, list is to have a high performing electric bike and the Empulse will perform much better than the other production e-bikes that have no transmission. I test rode an S and it was adequate, but not exhilarating. If it had the range, I might have bought it spurred on by my emerging green side. For these prices, though, I would really prefer to be exhilarated. I'd like to think of it as the "Tesla of motorcycles", but I don't think they reached quite that far. Still, they've gotten a lot closer than anything else available, but at a premium. If I can stretch it, I'll pay a bit of a premium to advance the state of the art to add "excitement" to the formula.
Also, the built-in quick charger is a big boon in terms of meeting my range needs. Without it, I would use most of the range of the bike (and uncomfortably right at the max range of other production bikes) just to do my commute and then I'd really need to wait for the bike to fully charge before I could commute home. Some commute days I'm only commuting for half a day so on-board quick charging is icing on the cake - it eliminates the last of my range issues without having to invest in extra parts and find ways to lug them around.
Now, could a much cheaper bike have met those critical range needs? - maybe, or probably. Do I feel the added performance is unnecessary? - No, I very much would love to have it and think it is one of the advantages of electric vehicles - performance with economy. Would I have enjoyed simpler maintenance - yes.
I'd love to see e-bikes in 2-3 years time when they can up the voltage levels to a point where they can have superbike performance, simple 1-moving-part drivetrains, plenty of range, and all of the economy they currently enjoy (as long as you resist the wrist). Until then, the Empulse is probably the only formula that could deliver what I need this year plus some of my wants and desires - at a price...
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But the big Empulse is 470 lbs. vs. 341 lbs. for the big Zero S. I don't see it outperforming the Zero S for range unless they have an eco or rain button you can push. Good speed and acceleration...but if you use it, the range will be very short...maybe 30 miles.
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As far as waiting for an e-bike to go into production, I'd like to remind everyone that from the time I put my $500 deposit down for a ZERO DS it was two years and one week to the day, when I received delivery on a 2010 DS. At the time I made the deposit, I had no idea that the DS would be the last model to be designed and produced. Things are a lot different now at ZERO and probably will be at Brammo when they get up to speed.
BTW - Zero nicely comped me ($0) the Corbin low profile seat as a reward for my 2+ year wait. At that time they were getting $500 for that option! I now have that same seat on my 2012 DS ZF6.
Trikester
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30 miles? You'd need to push 300 Wh/mile for that.. I don't think even 100 mph will drain the battery that quickly.
At high speed the Zero seems to suffer from poor aerodynamics and possibly being pushed into a less efficient regime for the motor. At least the MIC steady 70 mph test is notably higher consumption (180 Wh/mile Zero vs 165 Wh/mile Brammo Empulse).
At low speeds the Empulse does use more energy per mile, but the larger pack mostly makes it a wash. At 45-55 mph the Empulse has about 20% more range, at 70 mph about 30% more range.
Looking at it another way, for a given range the Empulse can travel 10 mph faster. 80 miles on the Zero S ZF9 is about 45 mph, the Empulse should get 80 miles of range at 55 mph. 60 miles on the Zero S is about 55 mph, the Empulse should get 60 miles at 65 mph.
At least, that's what the specs indicate. We'll see what the real world range looks like.
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But the big Empulse is 470 lbs. vs. 341 lbs. for the big Zero S. I don't see it outperforming the Zero S for range unless they have an eco or rain button you can push. Good speed and acceleration...but if you use it, the range will be very short...maybe 30 miles.
I'm just going by what they both claim and Brammo is claiming longer ranges for any given category. I do note that the Zero web site claims EPA/UDDS test results whereas the Brammo site claims SAE results, but I believe that they are essentially the same standard - does anyone know any details on that?
In the end, it would be nice to see real world results from actual riders to see how they really compare. I've driven cars that habitually always did better than their EPA ratings and cars that never got as high as their EPA ratings so there is some amount of variability in how machines respond to the tests and how they respond to drivers (or, at least, to me).
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After 50 years of buying motorcycles, I don't believe any claims made by the manufacturer. I take them all with a big grain of salt. The only thing that I believe is what I experience when riding. Sometimes the performance is better, most of the time it is worse. But, while speculation is fun to discuss, I really want to see the bike on the road and get direct feedback from its owners. :) Hopefully that will happen sometime this summer, before the snow and rain returns to Ashland, Oregon. ::)
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This Brammo doesn't make any sense to me, for the following reasons:
-Why try to match the performance of a regular bike when the price of the technology still doesn't allow it (half the power for double the price of a similar gasoline bike)
-Why increase the complexity and therefore maintenance cost (Clutch, gearbox), when the whole purpose of electric bikes is cheap running cost and low maintenance.
Zero is not trying to compete with gas bikes. Instead they are pushing the strength of the technology they have:
-Less power, so make a bike that will excel in the city: keep the bike small and nimble for easy maneuvering.
-The batteries are still expensive, so make the bike almost free to maintain (no clutch, gearbox, chain ect...)
I think Zero is pushing the strength that the electric technology offers. Brammo is trying to compete with gasoline bikes, and cannot win!
Agree 100% I'll add that the whore reason IC bikes have gears is to try to smooth out the torque curve across the full speed range. The torque curve of an electric is smooth as an artifact of the physics of electric motors. No gears needed. Six is silly. That said, I can make an argument for two gears on an electric. The first gear is essentially no gearing and the second brings the motor RPMs down to close to zero again. Remember, an electric motor has 100% torque at zero RPM, whereas a gasoline IC engine has to rev up to 1000 RMP plus to generate torque.
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As far as waiting for an e-bike to go into production, I'd like to remind everyone that from the time I put my $500 deposit down for a ZERO DS it was two years and one week to the day, when I received delivery on a 2010 DS. At the time I made the deposit, I had no idea that the DS would be the last model to be designed and produced. Things are a lot different now at ZERO and probably will be at Brammo when they get up to speed.
BTW - Zero nicely comped me ($0) the Corbin low profile seat as a reward for my 2+ year wait. At that time they were getting $500 for that option! I now have that same seat on my 2012 DS ZF6.
Trikester
Did Zero tell you the bike would be available in six months when you first put down a deposit and then didn't deliver for two years or was ero up front about the expected delivery?
Brammo has been saying "six months" for two years.
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When I bought my 2012 Zero, I was told that it would arrive at my dealer in 3 months. It arrived in less than 2 months. However, I did try to order a 2009 Zero and kept getting the runaround about the delivery date, so I finally gave up and bought a 2009 EMS GPR-S. That didn't turn out to be all that wise a financial decision, although it did show me that I liked electric motorcycles - if they would just keep running. ::)
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Regarding energy consumption, I found for a typical gas car, a .05 increase in wt. results in .02 decrease in mileage. All things being equal between a Zero and an Empulse, which they aren't, the added weight alone would reduce mileage by 15% (if they were both gas powered cars). Driving a car at 125 km/h vs. 100 km/h reduces mileage by 20%. Over 55 mph, each 5 mph increase in speed reduces mpg by about 8%. Rapid acceleration decreases mpg by about 30%. None of this bodes well for trying to get good range out of a heavy, fast bike, notwithstanding the 10% bigger battery. Watts/h vs. mpg are different rates but the laws of aerodynamics and bodies in motion are the same.
My Ninja 650r is supposed to get 50+ mpg. The best I can get is 30 mpg...a 40% reduction in range. Can anybody guess why? Unless you are buying an Empulse for your grandmother, you can kiss those range figures goodbye, and why buy a sports bike and ride it like a moped? The real figure I am interested in, is the same thing I asked for with the 2012 Zero, namely, how much range at 80 mph minimum? cause that is highway speed where I live...assuming the speedometer is off by 5 mph making that a real 75 mph minimum. Life in the fast lane in other words, not the truck lane. Comeon Brammo, get the dang bike out so we can see what it does.
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I wonder what is holding Brammo up?
I do feel for you pioneers. We "new kids" have it easy; I walked into a Zero dealership (albeit one I had to drive 200 miles to get to) and bought mine off the showroom floor.
I hope Brammo executes on this one. I like Zero, but competition is healthy. And after Brammo's big unveiling/press party, if they can't get the bikes out the door it won't help build confidence in this still-nascent e-bike business, especially amongst people who aren't passionate about the technology to begin with.
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Actually I wasn't given a promised delivery date when I put down the $500. However, over the course of the two years I would get some vague information on ETA but mostly I couldn't find out much. As I mentioned before, I didn't realize that the DS model was the lowest priority in their production plans.
Then I got notice that some 2009 DS's were available but they had motor overheating problems. If I could wait until April of 2010 I could get a 2010 with that problem solved. It was my choice. A no brainer there, I waited for the 2010, which I finally got in August of that year. I was 73 when I put down the deposit and I told them several times, during the two years, that I hoped I would live long enough to see my new bike ;D
I wonder what happened to those few 2009 DS's they built? Collector's items? Maybe they modified them to the 2010 model and shipped them.
I was surprised when Jay Leno got his bike before me. :o You mean I don't pull as much weight as Leno? ;D Who would have thought?
(Actually it was the first "S", not "DS" that he got)
Trikester
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On another thread you said you were 77 years old. For real? If so, you're my hero. Means I got at least another 20 years of motorcycling to go if the gods are on my side.
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I've speculated here that if and when the Brammo Empulse ever ships it will either have fewer features or a higher price than originally advertised. Based on the spec released yesterday it looks like Brammo kept all of the features they promised but notice they are not talking about the price.
On the Brammo web site, the pre-order page says: "Price: TBA"
Are folks pre-ordering the bike without knowing how much it will cost? That's crazy.
In this thread we try to estimate how much the final MSRP will be given that the bike has a gearbox, a water cooled motor, 1.4KW more battery capacity and other costly features that the Zero doesn't have, not to mention the fact that Zero has years of production experience to figure out ways to shave cost of goods off their bikes to improve margins. Even with years of experience it's rumored that Zero makes at best $2500 or less than 20% gross margin on each Zero S.
Unless Brammo plans to sell every Empulse at a loss, expect it to cost > $16k. I'm going to guess: $16,995 MSRP.
Anyone else?
Wow. I was off by $2,000. The official price is $18,995.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2108 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2108)
The whole idea of gearing an electric motor is stupid. The reason for gearing a IC motor is to try to flatten the torque curve. An electric motor already has a flat torque curve, and power can be modulated electronically.
I think the Empulse will fail at this price.
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I don't think the Empulse will fail. I think they will just not sell as many of the models as does Zero. If the Tesla can sell a top-spec sports car for $110,000, then Brammo can sell a top-spec motorcycle for $19,000 (about $21K out-the-door in states with sales tax). But the market for that bike will be limited as it will be compared with high-spec IC Italian motorcycles that will have much greater performance, a more established dealer network and typically great motorcycle magazine shoot-out test results that the Empulse will not be able to match.
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I don't think the Empulse will fail. I think they will just not sell as many of the models as does Zero. If the Tesla can sell a top-spec sports car for $110,000, then Brammo can sell a top-spec motorcycle for $19,000 (about $21K out-the-door in states with sales tax). But the market for that bike will be limited as it will be compared with high-spec IC Italian motorcycles that will have much greater performance, a more established dealer network and typically great motorcycle magazine shoot-out test results that the Empulse will not be able to match.
Tesla is uneconomical, that is, cannot stay in business based on sales. A stock $110,000 Tesla won't beat a stock $62,150 Boxster Spyder. But Tesla got a $465 million dollar loan from the Federal government to keep them afloat. I predict Brammo will go out of business for all the reasons you mention because Brammo Empulse is uneconomical even at $19,000 and won't get Fed help to keep them afloat.
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Tesla is uneconomical, that is, cannot stay in business based on sales. A stock $110,000 Tesla won't beat a stock $62,150 Boxster Spyder. But Tesla got a $465 million dollar loan from the Federal government to keep them afloat. I predict Brammo will go out of business for all the reasons you mention because Brammo Empulse is uneconomical even at $19,000 and won't get Fed help to keep them afloat.
To be fair, Tesla has had a business plan that never claimed to be in the black until these next few years (I don't know the details of when, but it has certainly never been before the Model S shipments got into full gear). They are right where they expected to be and the loan from the government was in lieu of what they had originally expected to get from private sector investors and they are currently on schedule to pay it off ahead of when they had predicted. Establishing new technology on this scale takes time and money - don't assume that because a company in this sector is in the red that they are not a success, it's all consistent with the business plan and how you bootstrap a new technology in this industry.
The main difference is that Tesla has been producing results ahead of, or on, schedule consistently. Brammo has been a fair bit behind at times. If Brammo can keep potential investors happy despite their schedule slips then they may be OK as well...
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Brammo better get some dealers lined up if they expect to sell $18,000 bikes. Their site lists a dealer in California, one in Florida, and one in Wisconsin. Is that really it? How have people been buying the Enertia?
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Brammo better get some dealers lined up if they expect to sell $18,000 bikes. Their site lists a dealer in California, one in Florida, and one in Wisconsin. Is that really it? How have people been buying the Enertia?
I am outside of US, but I got the impression Enertias were sold in WalMart Stores correct?
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I am outside of US, but I got the impression Enertias were sold in WalMart Stores correct?
No, although they were originally sold at Best Buy stores back when they came out in 2009. The Best Buy deal was ended last year and now they are sold through a few dealerships and also direct from Brammo.