ElectricMotorcycleForum.com

It seems as if their "engineering services" are what is keeping Lightning financially afloat. Building bikes is more of a sideline for them.

Yup. The LS-218 was never a production motorcycle. The only 2 accounts of one I've seen on the Web by an owner  were for highly customized non-street-legal racebikes. One was on this forum, for a bike with stronger engine, no lights and (possibly) a smaller battery.

The Strike was announced in April 2019 starting at $13K. I've yet to see any actual owner description, except for one motorcycie novice who was sold an incomplete prototype with half the battery (MVetter checked out that bike, as I recall).
So no, Lightning isn't a production motorcycle company.

Quote from: MVetter on October 31, 2023, 11:41:17 AM

Quote from: Apollo on October 31, 2023, 03:57:30 AM

  According to Google and chatgpt, the term "production vehicle" is pretty well spelled out and I think Lightning meets the criteria of possibly "limited production".

It does not meet the definition of 'Production'.

    Where are you getting the definition of 'Production', and in what way does Lightning not meet this definition?
  Would you consider Koenigsegg vehicles to be non-production?
  As I watched them work, they appeared to be putting out bikes about once every two weeks. (My guess).
  Is there a number you are looking for, or something else?

This isn't rocket science.
I don't really care about FIM's, or the Guiness Book of World Records, or other re-definitions of the term.
The commonsense, man-in-the-street definition and usage are simple: A production car is one anyone with enough money can go and buy through normal sales channels, if they have the money and it hasn't sold out. The number produced has nothing to do with it: Very limited-production cars like the Rimacs are still production cars: There are known, detailed,  specs whichc identical for all exemplars of a model.

The recordbreaker LS-218 was not a production bike because it was a one-off vehicle with customized parts (which Lightning never disclosed publicly): Custom bodywork, custom gearing (maybe that is available off-the-shelf, no idea -- but the bodywork certainly isn't) plus several other modifications.
In most countries you couldn't homologate that particular  LS-218, because you'd need to submit several additional identical examples for safety & equipment testing etc.

I'm assuming their plan is to eventually start making electric scooters, basically identical to this bike component wise but in a different shape. To do so and actually have them sell they need to cut the price in half, using scooter components will help a little bit with that but unless this thing is just stupidly expensive due to a low production volume then it's not going to happen. That then brings the question of why did they bother with this thing at all instead of going straight to scooters? All I can think of is it's all for the attention, any publicity is good publicity and they can say they're the first of the big four Japanese manufacturers to have an electric motorcycle (I think Honda already has their scooter, at least in Japan).

Yamaha also already has a couple of models, in Taiwan (I think it's essentially a rebadged Gogoro -- it uses the same batteries & swap system), 50cc-equivalent .

I'm going to assume that you're not the kind to be buying a Patek over a nice Seiko, and thus also not the kind to be buying an Arch. Those that do have a garage big enough that taking up space isn't a concern, it's essentially a showroom.

Thing is, why would anyone buy a display piece that looks like a copy of tons of concept / other startup bikes, from a company noone's ever heard of, and if anyone enters the garage, wouldn't have a clue what it cost even if they're a big bike aficionado?
It's really different than buying a Rolls-Royce, or one of Britten's bikes,  or an MV Agusta. Or even an Energica Ego, for that matter -- the Ego looks far pricier and more serious.

I don't think parents think like that... if they are remotely put off by safety, the kid doesn't get a bike, end of story.

These bikes from Kawasaki basically compete with 50cc machines over here in Europe, but will likely be over twice as expensive and I doubt they'll find much of a market. I am wondering exactly how the powers occupying the loftier offices at Honda, Yamaha, etc. haven't noticed what Zero are doing and reckoning perhaps they could be doing that too but cheaper and/or better.

Cas

Exactly. These are 50cc-class equivalent bikes except for the visual design. Not 125, let along 400. Top speed is insufficient for suburban commuting, which requires 70-75mph cruising (not top speed).
These aren't really motorcycles, but scooters in motorcycle clothing.

Well, Energica so far seems to be doing fairly well and they are not exactly billionaires.

Of course there is Rivian too, but they were spoon fed megabucks by amazon so don't really apply to your rule.

Those who come in with an open mind, and a SOLID business model, and understanding of business, have a good chance.

The whole E vehicle thing, is still fairly new, and E  Motorcycles VERY new, so yes, first on the block CAN count for a lot IF it works.  I think another thing that killed a lot of companies is putting out a product too fast and then being eaten alive by recalls and repairs, and the subsequent damage to your reputation, which when it's THAT severe, is almost impossible to get out from under.

another problem and it isn't really fair to ANY startup really is  that, the world is going to shit real fast here and about to collapse economically.  People don't have money anymore and those who do, are holding it very close to their vest, they are afraid of what tomorrow is bringing and don't want to spend on what many consider at this point to be toys.  If the economy was going good, these companies would have had a lot better run out of the gate than they do now when people are not buying even when the product is good!

It'll be interesting to see what the landscape looks like Ebike wise in 2 to 3 years.  Hell, we'll probably have a global EMP by then and all living back in the stoneage so this all will be moot.. some archive for another civilization to dig up in 1500 years.

Hey energica, can you design a bike that runs off tubes and CRT"s     It might survive!!

Aaron

Energica wasn't a startup. They were an internal venture by CRP, a very successful, 40 y.o. high-end automotive vendor with unique expertise in 3D printing; the original purpose wasn't to build a saleable product, but to demo the 3D printing process -- they initially planned on making a car, than decided a motorcycle would be much cheaper for the same result.
They not only had money but all the contacts in the racing world, and didn't rely on deposits for working capital.
Energica was even publicly listed (in the Milan Stock Exchange).

Notably, CRP and Energica still decided to sell a majority ownership stake in it to an outside EV conglomerate, Ideanomics, 1.5 years ago.

I'm getting some deja vu. I swear this thing has been "available to order" for probably a year now and always with an estimated shipping date. Currently the site says "funding" and the "campaign" ends in 29 days, it's sounding like something off Kickstarter and we know how a lot of those projects go. Also if you reload the product page you can catch this. Of course they're past that date now, but if that's what they needed and what they've got then I don't think another month is going to net them $54m.

It's a shame because it sounds like a great bike at a cracking price, but likely just another case of too good to be true.

Crowdsourcing is a really, really, really bad way to fund mass-production.
If you can't find a real investor, your product pretty much guaranteed not ready for prime time.
And since Erik Buell has no connection to it anymore, I don't trust them to do a good job of engineering long-term.

So where is the bike?
Not ONE link, picture, pootube video,NOTHING showing us the bike in action,specs, anything, just  give us money.

Go take a flying f^^k at a stale rolling torroidial pastry, stick a Bruker 760 in it and measure the vacuum you draw on the downstroke.  At least then you'd have some sort of tech spec to share.

Aaron

Exactly what Aaron said.
Also, your "pricelist" talks about displacement in CCs. For an electric 2-wheeler?
Also, you state "ship worldwide". Please show your homologation documents for every country on the planet. Or even just one.
Also, your Indigogo campaign is for 1/2000 of the money you'd need to enter production. It's not enough to build a single prototype.