ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: protomech on January 10, 2014, 08:58:40 PM
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On Dec 18 2013 Zero notified the NHTSA of recall to properly handle continuing glitches (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchResults?searchType=ID&targetCategory=R&searchCriteria.nhtsa_ids=13V635000&refurl=email) in 2012 and 2013 bikes. You can read about the earlier glitch for 2012 bikes (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2800.msg18665#msg18665) in another post.
For better readability, everything between '****' is a quote from Zero's defect report.
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DESCRIPTION OF DEFECT:
The subject motorcycles have a controller firmware that may react to infrequently encountered signal faults by discontinuing controller power to the motor. Should one of these faults occur while the motorcycle is being ridden, the controller's response may result in an inadvertent quits-while-running condition, which could lead to a crash.
CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS:
On 09/12/2012, Zero Motorcycles concluded that certain 2012 model year motorcycles had a motor encoder position signal that could drift over the extended use of the motorcycle. Should the encoder signal drift too far, it could fall beyond the signal limits expected by the motor controller. This condition could cause the motor controller firmware to respond to such a signal fault by discontinuing power to the motor, resulting in the inadvertent loss of power of the motorcycle, which could lead to a possible crash. In response to the conclusion of its investigation, Zero Motorcycles determined that a defect related to motor vehicle safety existed and declared a voluntary recall program (12V-455). The remedy in this program involved a new controller firmware and configuration, which compensates for the possible drift of the motor encoder position signal to ensure it remains within the limits expected by the controller.
Over the next several months, Zero Motorcycles received reports of 2012 and 2013 model year motorcycles that exhibited similar quits-while-running behavior. Since the analysis of each of these reports revealed a variety of unrelated faults as the root cause of the inadvertent power interruption, on 09/20/2013 Zero Motorcycles personnel traveled to Sevcon's headquarters in the United Kingdom to better understand the reason behind such behavior (Sevcon Limited is the manufacturer of the subject controller and developer of its firmware). During the ensuing investigation after this meeting, it became clear to Zero Motorcycles and Sevcon that these random, infrequent and unrelated signal faults could not be avoided in the lifetime of the motorcycle, and that the controller firmware needed to deal with these faults in a different, more reasonable manner.
On 12/05/2013, Zero Motorcycles completed its internal investigation of this concern and concluded that 2012 and 2013 model motorcycles built with a Sevcon controller prior to 11/08/2013 have firmware that could respond to infrequent signal faults by discontinuing controller power to the motor, which could lead to a quits-while-running situation. Zero Motorcycles executive management considered this information and determined that a defect related to motor vehicle safety existed.
Zero Motorcycles is not aware of any accidents or injuries caused by this condition.
DESCRIPTION OF THE PROGRAM TO REMEDY THE DEFECT:
The remedy of this defect is for Zero Motorcycles dealers to update the suspect vehicles with revised controller firmware that deals with these infrequent faults in a way that does not result in an inadvertent quits-while-running condition.
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Thanks for posting this!
I know have another question to ask the dealer before buying my 2013 11.4 soon :)
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I wonder if this is a Sevcon issue across all sevcon models....
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I think the flaw exists across all Sevcon models, when presented with a particular set of input signals.
However, that particular set of input signals may only present itself in certain applications. The Zeros are (apparently) capable of presenting that particular set of input signals. The Brammo bikes may or may not be.
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I haven't had any issues yet. I'll update if i do.
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That make me wonder too.
I have 13000Km with no glitch. Daily use for 2*16Km and also for day-trip 200+ Km.
I don't understand what this " infrequently encountered signal faults " are.
But Zero/Sevcon seems to have done a lot of analysis.
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The encoder signal drifts from what is expected a day the controller doesn't recover safely..... It faults.
Sounds like they worked with sevcon to have the controller recover safely.
Good info in the recall documents.
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All bikes that use the sevcons will have this fault including the Brammo's. Zero and Sevcon worked together to fix Sevcon's firmware though.
Had Zero not fixed the problem Brammo would also have experienced the problem as encoder drift will happen no matter how you slice it. I presume the only reason it was not noticed was the fewer number of Brammo bikes out there and the lower mileage on those bikes.
-EC
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I wonder if the Renault Twizzys are using Sin/Cos encoders as well? If so this will be effecting them as well.
Good find on Zero's part.
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I have one time tryed where my 2013 Zero was cutting the power to the engine.
It was when I stopped at a traffic light the throttle was dead and I had to "reboot" before the engine could run again.
It only happened 1 time and the bike had back then run about 300 km. at the clock.
My bikes production number is 2887
8)
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Should this be a factor in considering the purchase of a new 2014 fx?
Any thoughts appreciated.
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All bikes that use the sevcons will have this fault including the Brammo's. Zero and Sevcon worked together to fix Sevcon's firmware though.
Had Zero not fixed the problem Brammo would also have experienced the problem as encoder drift will happen no matter how you slice it. I presume the only reason it was not noticed was the fewer number of Brammo bikes out there and the lower mileage on those bikes.
I spoke with the Brammo guys at Daytona end of 2012. FWIW, they said they were aware of the encoder drift issue in the stock Sevcon firmware and had corrected it on their end.
I don't know if the second round of glitches is an issue for their bikes. If so, we'll probably see a recall from Brammo as well.
Should this be a factor in considering the purchase of a new 2014 fx?
Any thoughts appreciated.
It wouldn't bother me, Zero has a fix in place. No 2014 bike should leave the factory with this issue.
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wow, I hadn't had a single problem with my '13 (after major glitch time with my '12) until this morning. Pop on over here to see if there's anything going on with others and the recall is waiting for me. That's impressive timing. Bike 2729 with 2500 miles since August. Cut out 5 or 6 times in 20 miles, mostly when accelerating significantly. Was able to get going again with a reboot or two each time. Saw error-blink pattern 4-1 and 3-2 (or maybe 2-3?).
Sounds like they've got a much better handle on things this time, let's hope the firmware update is a decisive fix.
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I don´t know where and how to update the controller firmware.
But Zero could make a usb dongle of a kind which you could put in the bike and then it cut flash the firmware itself, it would save Zero for many hours.
And then if there came another new firmware they could do the same ting again.
Just send the dongle thing to all the bikes which has the "glitch" problem, if it don´t work then the customer can get to the dealer
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My bike has never stopped while running, just needs a couple of boots to get it going (4700 miles). Question? Does anyone know if Zero will just update all the 2013 Zeros with new firmware? Are there certain vin nos that are affected but not all? Will Zero send out letters when they are ready to fix the affected bikes?
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I expect all production 2013 Zeros will get a recall letter in a short period of time.
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I'll see if my bike needs the recall, or if it got an early reprogram with the recall software. Mine was given a fix for the glitch in early November, and Zero seemed pretty keen to flash the Sevcon as well as replace the motor.
Zero need to take another look at my bike anyway as it still dying when it gets damp, which is a tad irritating... :)
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If Zero wants to be like Tesla they should make it possible to flash through the app, like you can upload the logs.
I'm going to the HQ anyway to pick up my second set of batteries so no inconvenience for me!
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I've had 3 or 4 cut-outs in 3000 miles on my 2013 Zero-S 8.5
Twice when I slammed open the throttle for max power 1) entering a highway, and 2) overtake.
Cruised to the side. Off-wait-On cycle and it got going again.
It was 'Unpleasant' and could have been dangerous, but it did not get too scary.
I'd love to be able to do an update myself, with USB or APP, but I suppose one does not want to be responsible to 'brick' a motorcycle and for that reason will tolerate a ride to the dealer
(Dealer is at the top of my bike's range... will have to charge over lunch or something).
Hein
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I don't expect that Zero will allow owners to update Firmware.
When my 2012 was updated I watched the mechanic do some of it and it involved some special tooling, a lot of plastic coming off, and plugging special connectors into special places.
In the current form, there is likely too much risk for Zero to turn that over to owners.
With some engineering for future models it might be possible but I just hope that they get it to a stable working state and updates are not required.
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Not for recalls like this where safety could be involved. They need to be sure the work was done right.
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They could deliver "recalls" via over-the-air firmware updates like Tesla, and verify that the update has been received and installed.
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Dealers might not like to see that.
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My 2013 Zero S is getting the update today. I am hoping it might even prevent the need to double boot the bike. Today for the first time, it took 3 boots to get the bike rolling too, so that wasn't a good sign.
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dkw12002 - What production number are your bike ?, And do you know what month it has been build ​​in ?
My dealer lives about 800 km. from my home, so I don´t hope my Zero is "Infected"
It sound like the glitch will appear if you accelerate quickly at full throttle :o
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I stopped by my dealer today and asked if they could set up an appointment to perform the firmware update. But they couldn't do it yet as they said that they needed some additional equipment to perform the task. They said they would give me a call when they have what they need and can schedule the work. Fortunately, I live only 10 miles from my Zero dealer.
It has been so warm in the morning lately, that my bike has been starting right up every morning. The last two days it was 60 degrees at sunrise. Normally in January I would expect a low temperature of 35 degrees F and an additional boot-up to get going in the morning. ???
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Sounds like they placed the controller port about as cleverly as the key for the battery retaining bar. (Or the main key for that matter.)
Tough luck for dealers but the amount of recall work they get to do shouldn't be propped up for that reason at customers' expense. I don't think over the air updates are coming to us current owners but just something they should strongly consider as they mature and have the engineering capacity to make improvements. As Tesla has demonstrated, over the air updates are awesome for both manufacturer and customer whether it's added features over time or avoiding annoying and costly recalls.
Edit: Got my recall notice by certified mail this morning 1/17! Was hoping for something more exciting when I had to go to the post office to pick it up...
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I'd never have said that the programming / comms ports were hard to access...
On the 2012 the MBB OBDII style controller port is very easily accessible without unscrewing anything. (just under the front "tank" fairing)
Getting to the Sevcon controller is slightly harder, and requires you to remove the seat, the panel protecting the Sevcon then can be lifted up.
The BMS port is behind a cap on the front of the battery box (next to the BMS indicator window) I've not popped this one open yet however.
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Excited to hear about the firmware update and hope it permanently solve the glitch problem :)
But why is it only some of the bikes there has the problem ?
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Received the recall notice for this today via email with letter attached as a PDF.
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I just received my recall notice today. It came "certified" first class mail and I had to sign for the letter. That is different than recalls from BMW. You just get a regular first class letter - if you are lucky. Also the recall letters from BMW typically come months after the recall notices get published on the government web site. ??? In that regard, Zero is much faster than der Corp. Hopefully, I will hear from my dealer sometime next week that they have the necessary equipment to perform the firmware update. The letter said that it will be at the dealer's shop by Monday.
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Don't know if it is fair to compare to BMW. I got the http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls/zero-motorcycles-recalls-s-and-ds-bikes-080913.html (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls/zero-motorcycles-recalls-s-and-ds-bikes-080913.html)
from August 2013 two weeks ago. (US <->Europe will take time?)
Not 100% sure if there is an additional delay by my dealer because my bike is not affected but my dealer asked me to check the bolts to be dead certain! (I like the wordplay here)
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According to this page, it´s only 667 units there has the "glitch" problem
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/recall/zero-motorcycles-controller-drift-recall/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/recall/zero-motorcycles-controller-drift-recall/)
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But from the production date it seems that almost all the 2013 models are concerned, isn't it ?
Laurent
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I don't know if we will be warn here in France, and I don't know if my dealer has the capability to update the ESC firmware. That's gonna be a good test for warranty out of the US !!!
Laurent
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The 2012 have had an up-date in the first year and my European dealer got the PC with SW + IXXAT USB to CAN dongle to do the up-date. I don't know why your dealer shouldn't be able to do.
If not have a trip to Bavaria and I will make sure you get your up-date here.
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Houps, Bavaria, I'm gonna need a very long electric cable !!!
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I don't expect that Zero will allow owners to update Firmware.
When my 2012 was updated I watched the mechanic do some of it and it involved some special tooling, a lot of plastic coming off, and plugging special connectors into special places.
In the current form, there is likely too much risk for Zero to turn that over to owners.
With some engineering for future models it might be possible but I just hope that they get it to a stable working state and updates are not required.
I just talked to Ryan T at Zero and he said they are working on a remote fix for owners who live far away from dealers. They will ship out a cable set with a USB connection, and with a Remote 1-2-3 software download will be able to update the software after "mapping" the control board with the owner going through a series of steps with the throttle while the bike is on a jack. He said they plan to do get more cable sets and start working with those owners in a few weeks.
He also said that the quits-while-running problem seems to be occur repeatedly on some bikes and not at all on most, so if it hasn't happened yet, and chances are pretty good it won't.
Cheers, EastSider
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I've had Zero issues (pun intended) in 5K miles on my 11.4 DS so I suspect I'm one of the ones in the "it probably will not happen" group. I'll check with Zero on the do it yourself update as I prefer not to work with the dealer.
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Just got my recall service done. Only had to wait around for a couple hours, and was hoping to get a complimentary test ride on the new SR... no dice. Does anyone know if there are any other changes included in the update besides the fix?
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I just had the firmware update performed on my 2012 S. It took the shop one hour to complete the work. While there I had a nice talk about Zeros with the office manager. They had a bunch of 2014 Zeros on the floor (one of which is my bike) and I was told that at least two or three new Zeros were waiting for their owners to pick them up soon. It seems like Zero sales are pretty hot right now - of course our dry and sunny weather no doubt helps. :) (On the other hand, hydro power is going to be hard to come by this summer. :( )
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Richard, I will be interested to see if the update on your 2012 will allow the bike to go after just one boot or whether you still need to re-boot to get going. I had my 2013 S update yesterday and so far it has gone after a single boot each time whereas before I needed to consistently re-boot. I wonder if there is some connection between the stopping while running issue and the contactor not closing during boot up? So far it appears that may be the case. Time will tell. We had unseasonably warm weather today though...high of 76 F, and the re-boots seem to occur in cool weather, so I suppose things could change as the weather cools.
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Richard, I will be interested to see if the update on your 2012 will allow the bike to go after just one boot or whether you still need to re-boot to get going. I had my 2013 S update yesterday and so far it has gone after a single boot each time whereas before I needed to consistently re-boot. I wonder if there is some connection between the stopping while running issue and the contactor not closing during boot up? So far it appears that may be the case. Time will tell. We had unseasonably warm weather today though...high of 76 F, and the re-boots seem to occur in cool weather, so I suppose things could change as the weather cools.
Just for you (and me), I stuck my bike out in the 35 degree F (it hasn't been this cold in a month) shade outside my garage this morning and booted it up. In the past it would never have started on the first try, but this time it did. It looks like the firmware update solved that problem. ;D
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That's good news. Several people seem to have had this same problem and VCHAMPAIN said he needed multiple boots to get his going. I hope the new firmware fixes his issue too.
42F and dry after this morning's rain so I am going for a ride. I had to reprogram my eco mode after the fix. I set everything to max. In sport mode the bike just rolls too easily for me and I find myself coming up too hot behind cars and into corners. The max setting for off-throttle is what I mostly like because it is similar to strong engine braking which I am used to.
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I don't know if we will be warn here in France, and I don't know if my dealer has the capability to update the ESC firmware. That's gonna be a good test for warranty out of the US !!!
Laurent
They don't but will. My bike was supposed to be delivered last week, but it's not going out of the dealer since he is waiting for the special equipment to do the update. So they know about it, but need the equipment. Guess I need to wait another week or two before I get my DS.
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My '13 FX had a bad endo in the dirt two weeks ago which banged it up a bit and my friend broke her collar bone. First ride since then it limited to around 45 and when I held it against that limit for a few seconds it had a loss of power until I turned the key off and back on to reboot. Speed continued to limit on the ride home. It had sat for two weeks since the wreck, mostly not plugged in with ~1/2 charge remaining when I did the test ride. Plugged it in overnight and no problems the next day, nor riding 80mph on the highway to work today. It WAS in Eco mode when it happened but the speed limit was set as low as it could be at 60mph and it definitely limited around 40-45. Cold running issue? Pinched wire in the wreck? Or does this sound like the issue the recall is meant to fix to anyone? I'll be taking it to HQ tomorrow anyway but wanted to see if this sounded familiar to anyone.
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Sorry to hear about your friend's injury : /
If it sat for two weeks starting at 50% SOC, the bike was probably at 10-20% SOC when you took it out for the first post-wreck ride. Between low SOC, the cold temperature, and relatively high current demand .. the pack voltage probably sagged far enough that the BMS cut power.
Full charge should hopefully restore it to full.
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"with ~1/2 charge remaining when I did the test ride"
It was near 1/2 when the issue occurred, not sure what it was at when I stored it, perhaps 70%+. I was told at the factory that from the logs they think my issue was indeed related to the recall. If it reoccurs now that I've had the recall flash update I'll make it known.
Also, Zero parts are fantastically inexpensive. $25 for the upper tail plastic has got to be near cost. Granted it's not painted or anything. Only $210 per wheel when I got Harlan's supermoto kit was a pleasant surprise too. (Rotors, alas, are still big money.) Use your bikes with confidence, just don't damage your powertrain!
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Harlan has done the recall update software on my 2012 DS, 2013 FX, and 2013 Powertrain e-trike. I had not experienced the glitch, or cut-out, or whatever, but it's good to know now that I'm not likely to in the future.
Ironically, when I went to ride home on the FX I had to re-boot once to get started. However, I had sat and messed around with the kill switch and kickstand trying to get the Zero iPod app working before moving, so I might have caused this myself. No repeat of that re-boot since then.
Trikester
BTW - If anyone (like me) wants to reprogram the regen levels on their 2012 it can be done after this recall upgrade. Before, the levels would automatically return to the factory default levels the next time the bike was turned on. Now the new programmed levels will stay, just as they always have on the 2013's. The automatic return to default only applied to 2012.
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You are lucky to have Halan not far away. My french dealer don't have the computer to make the firmware update, even no brake pads in stock !!! I'm buying my own adaptable !!!
Laurent
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I had the firmware update performed this morning, along with a checkup maintenance since the bike hit 6000 miles on the odometer. I haven't experience any stuttering with regen today, after deliberately trying to trigger it, but that was my only experience comparable to the "glitch" reported by others.
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"Stuttering on regen"...first I heard that description. Richard, a while back talked about how when he goes down a hill on a full charge, he gets the regen cutting in and out which may be the same thing. I get that too, even more with the update on my '13 S. It isn't a problem cause you just apply brakes and after a short time the regen works fine. You do have to be a little careful though if you rely on engine braking, which I do. I have all settings on 100% in ECO, so when I head down the steep hill by my house which has a stop sign at the bottom, I get strong regen for a second, then none and the bike speeds up. Never has been a problem since the brakes work fine even with no regen. It would not do if this on and off regen was always present, but it only occurs for the half mile or so, and only on a hill. I rely on regen to do my engine braking. In sport mode, I find myself coming up too fast behind stopped cars, red lights, etc. cause the Zero rolls so easy and has no regen off-throttle in sport mode. I rely on eco which makes the bike perform similar to ICE bikes how mine is programmed. It's possible that some people who keep the bike in sport mode may have the same situation with the regen cutting out and not even notice it if they don't encounter a steep down slope on a full charge.
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A lot of people have experienced reduced or intermittent regen when the battery is full and I believe it is to protect the battery from becoming overcharged or imbalanced.
My regen is intermittent until I have gone about 1-2 miles at least, then it works perfectly.
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What I have been doing lately is to put my bike in Sport mode when leaving my home and riding downhill with the battery topped off, which prevents the on-off feeling of the regen. I find it easier to use the brakes when rolling downhill under Sport mode and coming to a stop than trying to use them as the regen goes on and off in Eco mode as this makes braking somewhat unpredictable. After a couple of miles of riding I can then switch to Eco mode and the regen works normally after that.
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Yes. The bike will prevent overcharging the battery by disabling regen if the battery is very near 100% SOC.
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Oh, yes, that does match my experience now that I think on it - regen would usually only stutter after leaving my house where it gets a full charge. Thanks for a good explanation!
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I don't expect that Zero will allow owners to update Firmware.
When my 2012 was updated I watched the mechanic do some of it and it involved some special tooling, a lot of plastic coming off, and plugging special connectors into special places.
In the current form, there is likely too much risk for Zero to turn that over to owners.
With some engineering for future models it might be possible but I just hope that they get it to a stable working state and updates are not required.
I just talked to Ryan T at Zero and he said they are working on a remote fix for owners who live far away from dealers. They will ship out a cable set with a USB connection, and with a Remote 1-2-3 software download will be able to update the software after "mapping" the control board with the owner going through a series of steps with the throttle while the bike is on a jack. He said they plan to do get more cable sets and start working with those owners in a few weeks.
He also said that the quits-while-running problem seems to be occur repeatedly on some bikes and not at all on most, so if it hasn't happened yet, and chances are pretty good it won't.
Cheers, EastSider
Will you let us know how this turns out? I would like to opt for this method to update the software because my dealer is incompetent.
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Like mine !!!
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I don't expect that Zero will allow owners to update Firmware.
When my 2012 was updated I watched the mechanic do some of it and it involved some special tooling, a lot of plastic coming off, and plugging special connectors into special places.
In the current form, there is likely too much risk for Zero to turn that over to owners.
With some engineering for future models it might be possible but I just hope that they get it to a stable working state and updates are not required.
I just talked to Ryan T at Zero and he said they are working on a remote fix for owners who live far away from dealers. They will ship out a cable set with a USB connection, and with a Remote 1-2-3 software download will be able to update the software after "mapping" the control board with the owner going through a series of steps with the throttle while the bike is on a jack. He said they plan to do get more cable sets and start working with those owners in a few weeks.
He also said that the quits-while-running problem seems to be occur repeatedly on some bikes and not at all on most, so if it hasn't happened yet, and chances are pretty good it won't.
Cheers, EastSider
Will you let us know how this turns out? I would like to opt for this method to update the software because my dealer is incompetent.
Yes I will! It may be a month or two.
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Upgrade completed at dealer in one hour, went smoothly.
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Hi,
i have a 2013 s, and it look as the same probleme I have.
somtime the controller reboot when i am riding
here is the log of the reboot : http://dl.free.fr/vDwcQMLRx (http://dl.free.fr/vDwcQMLRx)
when i open the file with a notpad, i can see "Restarting Sevcon to clear cutout fault"
i send them to support@zeromotocyles.com, but no answer for the moment
can sombody tell me what to do?
i am leaving in France, and there is no much dealer in the aera.
thank
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In which area are you living ? The flash update is complicated and requires several plugs and wires. I'm near Lyon for my part.
Laurent
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Salut Laurent,
I am near Nice.
i see to do every think on the controler we need the USB-CAN cable
do you have one?
did you connect on your controler?
can you read the log file i post?
http://dl.free.fr/vDwcQMLRx (http://dl.free.fr/vDwcQMLRx)
can you tel me more about the exact probleme?
i see that the probleme happen when a do reverse when the controler initiate.
the bike go back in stade off front.
and after the controler on the way ofen reboot
here is my e-mail :francois_riou@hotmail.com and my phone number if you want to exchange : 0686490730
hope to read you soon
François
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There are several cables involve in the update. And sometime you plug one, sometime you plug the other, and then back again. And to program the controller offset (one of the several updates to be done), oh god, you look to a "cloud" of points. And seeing this cloud of points on the computer screen took time and many phone calls to my ex-zero dealer as the program is really not user friendly !!! For my bike, I didn't need to reconfigure the offset according to the "cloud" center position. I hope my dealer is right ! But I never had sudden loss of power. Only 2 or 3 times my bike wouldn't start and all during the first 2 months.
So unfortunately I can't help you with the log, and I don't have the cables and programs for the different updates. A pity as I would love to see by myself !!!
Laurent