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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: rider7 on February 13, 2017, 02:34:21 AM
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All,
I want to install the Ryobi garage door opener modular system.
https://www.ryobitools.com/gdo/ (https://www.ryobitools.com/gdo/)
Zero's charge cord is a 14 gauge wire cord 12 or 15ft (I forgot), the Ryobi is 16 gauge and 30 ft.
And has an indicator light on its end which I have read somewhere (zeromanual.com maybe?) that it shouldn't have one.
I can replace the cord maybe with a thicker and shorter one, but don't necessarily want to, since I obviously want to use it for working in the garage as well.
Does anybody have experience with a 16 gauge and 30 ft in the long run?
I charged the bike with a 16 gauge extension about 15-20 ft. the first couple of times, the plugs where they connected got pretty warm, the smaller cord itself a little bit.
I know that length is not factoring in as much as wire thickness up to a certain point (quite a long cable)
How do you judge the long term usability of using smaller gauge wire than what Zero gave with the bike?
16 gauge is borderline rated for 13 Amps approximately.
Rider7
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You should be able to calculate the resistance of both cords, I'm on my phone right now and can't type up the formula but with some Google Fu you should be able to find a handy dandy webtool that does all the hard work for you.
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This seems like a reasonable tool: http://www.cirris.com/learning-center/calculators/133-wire-resistance-calculator-table (http://www.cirris.com/learning-center/calculators/133-wire-resistance-calculator-table)
I don't think the wiki says anything about extension cables with lights. I use a generous 20ft 12AWG extension cable with three outlets so I can run a battery tender to my gas bike and a very short (6ft?) 14AWG charger cable to a Zero. But my garage has only one outlet so I'm being thrifty.
The main thing is that the cable is in series with the bike, so resistance per foot times the number of feet yields a total cable resistance, and then the bike will have a lower voltage to draw its power from, and might draw more current as a result, resulting in more heating.
The borderline rating is probably not a good idea considering how often you'll have it near that rating. I recommend a thicker/lower gauge.
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My solution is to feel both ends of the extension cord after about 30 minutes of charging and if they are nice and hot, it is time to buy a heavier cord. ;)
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Hey guys,
as always, thanks for your input.
Today I noticed that the entire zero cable was actually nice and warm and much more pliable to put back into the swingarm:)
Well, I'll do some calculations then, but might als just go rogue, up my home owners insurance and let my electric lady suck electrons till the garage is on fire hahahahahha.
Just like you suggested Richard230 ;D ;D
I want to push my newly found Jetsons life style a bit more and simply park, reach up and pull the tank hose down.... is that too much to ask in this day and age 8)
Well, AWG 16 is rated for 13 Amps when you look at the right charts.
I guess if the Ryobi cord coil is dripping soft plastic on my zero it has too much resistance.
Ok, no seriously now, I'll research a bit more first.
I will do some calculations too Erasmo.
And BrianT,
I'll try finding where I read the indicator light thing. I don't believe it myself, since especially on heavy duty cables for construction, you see the live wire indicator lights all the time.
I have to say one thing though.
I am surprised that not all of you screamed at me and precisely told me what gauge is minimally necessary from your years of charging experience :)
Rider7
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16AWG isn't terrible. It just probably won't last long. I've used one in a pinch from a server room spare cable box at work. But yes it did get disturbingly warm despite being short.
One way you can use a thinner cord of course is to use a 220V outlet if one is handy, since the current would be only 7A. Just a thought.
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16AWG isn't terrible. It just probably won't last long. I've used one in a pinch from a server room spare cable box at work. But yes it did get disturbingly warm despite being short.
One way you can use a thinner cord of course is to use a 220V outlet if one is handy, since the current would be only 7V. Just a thought.
Brian,
I always feel the plug socket connection on the bike itself, because that is what I am concerned with the most to develop higher resistance due to constant plug and unplugging.
I could run my dryer outlet that I am even using for my three phase lathe (I run an 10 gauge SOOW cord out there)
In order to have my "Jetsons Setup" I'd have to run an SOOW cord (which is illegal that long as a permanent installation) or lay conduit from my laundry room to the top of the garage. I'd splice in parallel with a junction box and use that as my main 220-240 outlet even for the lathe.
That is actually not a bad idea.
I don't own a dryer anyway.
I like higher voltage and lower current anyway.
Thanks for jump starting my mind :)
Rider7
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If ease of operation is your main goal, try something like this.
https://www.pluglesspower.com/shop/ (https://www.pluglesspower.com/shop/)
Pricey but can't get any easier once installed
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If ease of operation is your main goal, try something like this.
https://www.pluglesspower.com/shop/ (https://www.pluglesspower.com/shop/)
Pricey but can't get any easier once installed
Hahah..Ed, this is amazing, so you're saying it can get any more Jetsons like that, huh?
I do kind of like plugging it in like a toaster though. But ask me after a couple of years :)
I'll keep my eyes open to see when they have built one for Zeros.
Thanks
Rider7
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I have a 7.2 KW charger for my Focus already, so no need for anything more at this time.
Have to see how I feel once my Model 3s arrive. I am sure that it is somehow connected
to the vehicle then just begins to charge once it is in place. Even with the charge tank,
the lowest power unit they offer would be plenty. Of course, if I were going to spend that
kind of money, I would be talking with Brandon instead.
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Today I noticed that the entire zero cable was actually nice and warm and much more pliable to put back into the swingarm:)
That's a sign that your cable can't handle the current, get a beefier one and don't wait too long. I'm not stateside but I hear that Monoprice has good no-nonsense cables.
16AWG isn't terrible. It just probably won't last long. I've used one in a pinch from a server room spare cable box at work. But yes it did get disturbingly warm despite being short.
One way you can use a thinner cord of course is to use a 220V outlet if one is handy, since the current would be only 7A. Just a thought.
Those are rated for 10A I assume? I would also only recommend that for emergency charging if you're on 110V, on 230V they're fine.
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I have a 7.2 KW charger for my Focus already, so no need for anything more at this time.
Have to see how I feel once my Model 3s arrive. I am sure that it is somehow connected
to the vehicle then just begins to charge once it is in place. Even with the charge tank,
the lowest power unit they offer would be plenty. Of course, if I were going to spend that
kind of money, I would be talking with Brandon instead.
Speaking of the Model 3, I just saw a Bolt yesterday as it passed me on my ride out of town. It was moving about 10 mph over the speed limit. Chevy didn't waste any time getting those things into the market.
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I would not use a #16 extension cord at 13Amps if it is all coiled up in that auto-retractor system. When it is laying flat it can get rid of more heat. 10hours of running at 13A could really increase the heat of that cord if it is mostly still inside the coil. If it is laying flat with good air-flow I suspect it would be ok, but still I would check connector temperature at both ends the first few times I used it, just to be sure the connections inside the plugs are sufficient.
At 220V, 6.5A, I think it would be fine.
-ryan
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biff beat me as I went to reply... he just said exactly what I was going to say...
running a full charge through a 16ga cable stretched across the room, it will get very warm, but not melt.
take that same cable and wrap it up in a coil, and it might... stick that coil in a box and wait hours and it will not last long.
you will ruin your nice retractable cable if you do it. either get a bigger gauge retractable spool, or just hang a cord.
slightly related to that.. if that opener has its motor and the zero on the same circuit, it might pop the breaker if the zero is pulling full power when the opener tries to open the door.
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Ahaaa..... as always thanks for the inputs :D
Erasmo, that warm cable was the 14 gauge zero supplied cable. I was surprised myself since it wasn't even charging from very low SOC.
Usually only the ends get warmish... maybe the little electrons had a party in there this time :)
Everybody else, yes, I agree, 16 gauge coiled up will make my coil melt in the long run.
And also MrDude1, you're right, while my Cat is charging, there is no escaping through that garage door anymore :D
I'll look into simply running an extra conduit with gauge 10 or 12 wires like I run for most machines in the shop and be done with it on 240 V.
Although, I got to look into this once more. I know dryers and stoves run tab to tab 240 like it comes from the pole, but that is technically two phase power.
I am only used to dealing with three phase and single phase (120V to neutral)
So the zero is usually taking one hot leg from the 240 incoming and returning on neutral like every other load in the house.
When you're using tab to tab, you then use the full potential that comes from the pole, but that now is 60 Hz 120 VAC on each leg.
Wouldn't that make it two phase 240.
Got to read a book about that real quick again.
Don't want to fry my Cat :o
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Ahaaa..... as always thanks for the inputs :D
Erasmo, that warm cable was the 14 gauge zero supplied cable. I was surprised myself since it wasn't even charging from very low SOC.
Usually only the ends get warmish... maybe the little electrons had a party in there this time :)
Everybody else, yes, I agree, 16 gauge coiled up will make my coil melt in the long run.
And also MrDude1, you're right, while my Cat is charging, there is no escaping through that garage door anymore :D
I'll look into simply running an extra conduit with gauge 10 or 12 wires like I run for most machines in the shop and be done with it on 240 V.
Although, I got to look into this once more. I know dryers and stoves run tab to tab 240 like it comes from the pole, but that is technically two phase power.
I am only used to dealing with three phase and single phase (120V to neutral)
So the zero is usually taking one hot leg from the 240 incoming and returning on neutral like every other load in the house.
When you're using tab to tab, you then use the full potential that comes from the pole, but that now is 60 Hz 120 VAC on each leg.
Wouldn't that make it two phase 240.
Got to read a book about that real quick again.
Don't want to fry my Cat :o
the 240 house hookup is still single phase.
your house (assuming in the USA) gets two wires 180* out of phase giving you 240vac 60hz power... the center tap of that is neutral... so using neutral and one line gives you the normal 120v outlet. doing neutral and the other line also gives 120v, just out of phase with the other.... and using both lines gives you one phase of 240vac.
if that makes sense. I can explain it easier drawing it out.
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MrDude1,
The way you explain it, it makes sense.
The confusion comes in once you work mostly with three phase, since those three phases are 120 degrees apart and looking at one phase, well it is 110-115V to neutral or mostly ground in my case (in a 230) and 230 phase to phase. (Plus or minus the 10%)
So if I look at a single wire, it is one phase, three wires then, I have the three phases rotating 120 degrees apart.
So, single phase where I have the two big bus bars in my panel with 110- 120V each coming in is that simply one phase 180 off-set to each other as you say?
And the potential between them them is 230.
Not sure where the 180 degrees offset comes from when the utility only sends one phase, which would come from ... oh hang on, so you are saying that the generator has two coils 180 degrees offset and every time the armature zips by, it picks up the induced current and sends it out and the other coil 180 degrees later gives you the other current, but it is still one phase?
The same happens for three phase power, three coils or magnets are inducing current 120 degrees apart and you'll end up with three phases.
So in my mind right now, the 120V 180 degrees apart would be two phase then.
Don't spend more time with me on this until I have actually looked it up and looked at some delta and wye configurations again and whatever is up there for single phase.
Ah... that is why we have only one transformer on poles in front of residential houses.
One line of electricity, one phase.
All I have to understand now is where the 180 offset happens.
So weird that I am actually good and comfortable with wiring for single phase (normal sockets in our shop) and the three phase for our machines, 240 and 480 Volts but when it comes to using the potential between the two incoming tabs on single phase, my brain goes ::)
We even have a high leg in our shop, which I understand every time I look at the delta wye transformer on a drawing.
Thanks for trying to teach me.
Let me look it up and I'll probably come back and hit my head so y'all can hear it from afar.
I feel so brave right now admitting that I am stupid when it comes to single phase 240V.
Rider7
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MrDude is correct about how residential 220V works (at least here in the States, which is all I know about for sure), but the industry-accepted terminology is pretty misleading (or stupid, depending on your point of view).
"110V", here in the States, consists of a hot and a return (also called "neutral"), so it's truly single phase. There's also a ground wire, which is at the same VOLTAGE as the return wire, but (unlike the return wire) carries no current in normal operation. It's for safety only, typically connected to the metal chassis of an electric appliance, and if there IS any current on it, there's a fault (current is escaping somewhere, causing sparks and/or electrical burns) and the circuit should be shut off. That's precisely what a GFCI does, which is why it makes things safer.
So ignoring the ground wire for the rest of this discussion, "three phase" power is used in industrial applications, and it's exactly what you'd expect, what MrDude and rider7 have described. There are three hot wires, each carrying AC voltage (here in the states, either 208 or 480 VAC) 120 degrees out of phase, with or without a neutral wire, which is at 0 VAC but is designed to carry load current...the neutral wire is pretty rare in three-phase applications, except that it does allow standard operation of 110 VAC devices across one of the phases of 208 and neutral.
Here's where the terminology gets a little whacko...220V residential power isn't three-phase because there are only two hot wires, and they're 180 out of phase, not 120, but it's also not really single phase because there are two hots, and sometimes the neutral. Logically to me, then, it should be called "two-phase". But the industry doesn't use that term...it was taken 100 years ago to refer to three-phase power with one of the wires missing (so two hots 120 out of phase, and maybe a neutral), although you'll NEVER see it these days. Instead the term "split phase" is sometimes used for 220 VAC, which doesn't make much sense to me, but that's the standard terminology.
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What I never understood was why a 110V residential service actually shows 120V on a meter (or in my case 125 volts). When did 110 become 120 and why is 120 still referred to as 110? ???
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mmmmm, are you sure about it?
Take a look to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power.
Basically it says that the 3 hot phases are 220V 120 degree, if you take any two hot you get 380V. If you take one hot and you use a transformer center tap on ground you get two split-phase of 110V on opposite phase from one 220V hot .... that is why the name.
In Europe we use directly the one 220V hot phase and neutral. In USA you get one of the split phases or both, so you get the 110V and or the 220V.
At least this is what I got from that ... :)
Giacomo
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What I never understood was why a 110V residential service actually shows 120V on a meter (or in my case 125 volts). When did 110 become 120 and why is 120 still referred to as 110? ???
My understanding is that it's actually "supposed to be" 117 VAC nominal. We refer to it as 110 VAC, or sometimes 115 VAC, just as a shorthand. In reality, there isn't a spec or even a tolerance for the actual voltage that's delivered to your house. It's often somewhat higher than nominal in newer housing developments, and somewhat lower in older areas, because they build in excess capacity to allow for growth, which causes the voltage to sag as load increases.
@giacomo: I wasn't trying to get into how power is delivered by the utility, just how it looks to you as it's delivered. Yes, "split phase" is derived from a single-phase transformer, with the output center-tapped (and the center-tap grounded), which is why it's called "split phase". But to the user, it just looks like two phases 180 degrees out.
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What I never understood was why a 110V residential service actually shows 120V on a meter (or in my case 125 volts). When did 110 become 120 and why is 120 still referred to as 110? ???
I've seen devices rated for 110, 115, and 120. I think there's just that much "slop" in the system.
2015 FX ZF6.5 👹 DoD #2160,6
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Ahh.. this is better than taking a college course... since there is no homework due now :)
Thanks for all of you pitch in.
DougS,
So the two hots are technically two phase power. I did read that there used to be two phase at some point too a long time ago and not for long, but I think you are right, it is a matter how you want to agree on terminology.
I completely understand how the three phase works. I do sometimes utilize a neutral for load carrying to get a 120V for regular outlets for example on our manual mills for the digital readout and work lights etc.
I understand that ground and neutral are the same after all, but ground is not supposed to be used to return current after it dropped to whatever after the load, and is just a security by providing a major pathway for electrons to immediately trigger the circuit breaker if anything shortens to the frame, or enclosed or anything a human could get in touch with accidentally.
I get how a residential uses one hot and the neutral to run any 110-120 etc... load.
By the way, the accepted specs are plus or minus 10% for the input in industrial machines.
So, I have 245V phase to phase on my three phase, although it is 230 nominal.
I am sure the same goes for residential loads.
Now, when I am using both hot wires that come into my house to use the potential of 240 between them, oh well, yes, I get 240, but does that jive properly in my zero's charger?
I never asked anybody here when they say they are using 240.
I know that back in Germany, everytime I stuck a screw driver into the socket, I would only have my hair stand up and begin to look like burned toast when I touched the hot, and that is 240. And nothing would happen when I did the same thing to the other hole in the wall :)
So, we would have one hot, one neutral I guess you could call that then too and it would complete our single phase 240V circuit.
I must admit that I have not actually read up on it myself since we started this discussion, but couldn't resist replying to your inputs.....
Thanks for sharing all your knowledge, I think it clears up some misunderstanding for some of the other class members here too.... hahaha...
Rider7
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Yes, "split phase" is derived from a single-phase transformer, with the output center-tapped (and the center-tap grounded), which is why it's called "split phase". But to the user, it just looks like two phases 180 degrees out.
yup. I actually like the term split phase... it feels more accurate than saying 180 out of phase.. because it really is one big wave, and you're just splitting it and using half. two 180 out seems misleading, even though the statement is accurate.
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Easy answer to op, get a cord rated at 15A.
2015 FX ZF6.5 👹 DoD #2160,6
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Easy answer to op, get a cord rated at 15A.
2015 FX ZF6.5 👹 DoD #2160,6
Actually it's not that easy. Cords are often overrated because the expected load is intermittent, not continuous for hours.
That's why we talk about wire size, instead of what the cord or box says.
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Well, since we are talking about charging cords, their capacities and ratings etc, this fits right in here.
The fire marshal came through my place of work today and pointed out some extension cords that we have installed to get juice to things like computers etc.
He pointed out that extension cords are strictly for temporary use only, meaning you have to be present when it's in use and disconnect it after it was used for its intended purpose.
It made sense.
He did point out that what he called "surge protectors" are legal. But he simply meant the power strips with a simple overload switch in there that can be reset, and not even the way more pricy real surge protectors.
Well, I told him about my new purchase of the zero and that it came with an "extension cord" style charging cord, that I am definitely using without being in the room for hours to watch.
He asked if it came with the bike and that I'd be able to shift the case towards Zero if it would happen, since they would send the cord in for forensic analysis after an incident.
Any take on this here?
If my house burns down because of me charging my zero, is my insurance going to balk?
I did see the Japanese case I think it was, where a zero caught on fire because of the cord/socket connection being not good enough.
And sorry if there is already a thread about this, I thought it fits into our discussion about the wire gauge here and especially what you just mentioned about continuous use MrDude_1.
Rider7
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Well, I told him about my new purchase of the zero and that it came with an "extension cord" style charging cord, that I am definitely using without being in the room for hours to watch.
What Zero provides is not an extension cord. It's a power cable that is probably regulated by the NEC. An extension cord attaches to what they provide, and adds to the voltage drop and adds to the resistance possibilities and wear at the connection.
(Found ref via UL: http://productspec.ul.com/document.php?id=FFSO.GuideInfo (http://productspec.ul.com/document.php?id=FFSO.GuideInfo))
He asked if it came with the bike and that I'd be able to shift the case towards Zero if it would happen, since they would send the cord in for forensic analysis after an incident.
Any take on this here?
If my house burns down because of me charging my zero, is my insurance going to balk?
If you use a cable not to the spec that Zero insists on in the owner's manual (see: Power Pack and Charging for the extension cable spec: "grounded, 3-wire 12-AWG cord no longer than 25ft" also saying not to share the Zero charging with any other device on a single 15/20A circuit), I'm sure you'd be assigned fault if investigators found it to be relevant.
If you use an extension cable in addition to any other cable that plugs into a Zero, you'd better make sure it fits the specification.
My first reply was really too vague. The answer to your original question just "No.". Using a 16AWG cable is risky and an accident with one will be your fault. Don't treat electricity casually.
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Easy answer to op, get a cord rated at 15A.
2015 FX ZF6.5 👹 DoD #2160,6
Actually it's not that easy. Cords are often overrated because the expected load is intermittent, not continuous for hours.
That's why we talk about wire size, instead of what the cord or box says.
Perfect, since my Zero draws up to 15A, not continuous. And going just by gauge can get you in trouble if you don't consider length.
2015 FX ZF6.5 👹 DoD #2160,6
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And going just by gauge can get you in trouble if you don't consider length.
I hate to be the "Well, actually..." guy, but length doesn't really factor into this consideration. Extra length will cause higher resistance, which will cause more voltage drop, as well as generating more heat, but it will be over a longer length of cord. Voltage drop isn't much even in a long cable, it's just heat that's the problem, plain and simple.
My experience with power cables is that heat along the length is rarely an issue (assuming the cord isn't coiled up when it's being used -- don't EVER do that!). When I've had heat problems in the past, it's always at one end of the cable or the other. Either the contact resistance between the prongs and the socket they're inserted into goes up because of corrosion or lack of tension in the contacts, the cable itself fails where it isn't very well strain-relieved going into the hard plastic of the end connector (much more of a problem with cheap cables), or sometimes the crimp connections between the wires and the contacts develops high resistance inside the connector itself.
My charge cable failed one day, and I ordered a 14 AWG 25-foot long one from monoprice. While I was waiting for it to arrive, I used the cable off of my printer, which is only 16 AWG. I kept a very close eye on it the first day, checking every few minutes for excessive temperatures, but it was fine, and it worked fine for the few days I needed it. I would NOT want to use it long-term, however. A cable rated for 15A will not only have larger gauge wires, it will have better terminal crimps designed to carry the higher current more safely for a longer period of time.
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Perfect, since my Zero draws up to 15A, not continuous. And going just by gauge can get you in trouble if you don't consider length.
Doug S said it already... but I'll restate it in my words..
from any practical standpoint, length is never an issue. sure if you have 1ft of wire and 3 feet of wire, the 3ft has 3 times the resistance.. but its also distributed over 3 times the length.. The heat generated for any given section of cord stays the same.
Now the voltage drop, sure that happens... however again for any off the shelf extension cord, of the appropriate gauge, the drop will never be enough to cause issues with the charger functioning.
So it comes down to just the gauge size. if you want to run it through a 100ft long 12ga extension cord, you can... just dont leave it coiled up, or let the fire marshal see it (because as mentioned elsewhere above, extension cords are "temporary use only".
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What Zero provides is not an extension cord. It's a power cable that is probably regulated by the NEC. An extension cord attaches to what they provide, and adds to the voltage drop and adds to the resistance possibilities and wear at the connection.
Brian,
that makes total sense, since computers also come with a detachable (in this case even C13) plug as well and it's legal.
Thanks for clarifying that.
Rider7
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MrDude1 and Doug S,
Yep, got it.... does make sense as well.
When touching the cord after charging, one can tell it better be laid out to be able to dissipate the heat.
I also noticed the warmer ends where the resistance seems to be higher on the connecting parts.
Rider7
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MrDude1 and Doug S,
Yep, got it.... does make sense as well.
When touching the cord after charging, one can tell it better be laid out to be able to dissipate the heat.
I also noticed the warmer ends where the resistance seems to be higher on the connecting parts.
Rider7
I have mentioned this before, but last year I had my charging cable connected to my daughter's old 16-gauge extension cord when visiting her, which apparently had a corroded female connector (I know that my end was clean). When returning to my bike, getting ready to leave her home, I couldn't disconnect the two cords. They had completely melted together and I had to cut the cords apart in order to remove them. At least my bike was fully charged, so I guess the heat didn't affect the electrons all that much. ;) Since it was my Zero's fault that her extension cord was toast, I bought her a new heavy-duty cord and that is working just fine when I visit and recharge. :)
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Richard,
melting your daughters cord... hahahah sorry, this is a bit amusing ;D
I just ordered a 25 ft 14 gauge cable to be able to better reach some charging stations when some optically challenged people park in EV spots with an ICE.
It should be fine.
I also ordered the J1772 adapter so I can charge like the big boys.
I know, still slow, but at least I can use all level 2s now.
Thanks for your input :)
Rider7
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Just to follow up a bit.
I found and bought this 25 ft cord.
It said 15 Amp 125 Volts on the Amazon webpage, but it turns out to be literally the same as the zero charge cord just longer.
14 AWG 300 Volts with pretty much all the same printed numbers on it.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06WVG3M2W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06WVG3M2W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
$20 bucks free shipping.
It helps charging the bike a bit more in the middle of the garage.
R7