ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: scZero on February 08, 2014, 06:01:32 AM
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So after 1600 miles on my 2010 DS I've been hit by the wicked glitch from the west. Started out where going 25-30 mph I'd have a cutout. I'd let the bike sit for 30-60 seconds and it would come back alive. Appeared to occur in the same place, thinking it was introduced by a bump or wide open roll of the throttle in that spot as well as SOC of the battery but then it started occurring in other places where the SOC was lower, throttle was not rolled on fast but rolled on slow and consistent. Last night it glitched and didn't come back to life until 1 hour later, key off/on didn't do anything, charging and unplugging did nothing, I pushed the bike 6 miles back home and 1/4 the way back home the bike decided to work again.
When the issue occurs I get no faults. Only thing I believe is happening is I don't hear the contractor cluck connection I usually hear when I power the bike on after the glitch occurs. Also last night I had the bike slowly pulse and accelerate forward without having my hand on the throttle.
I stopped by Zero in Scotts Valley (I live in Santa Cruz) to see if they could flash my bike and help me out a little. I got a troubleshooting flow chart to help diagnose the issue on my own which I'm happy for. Simple chart that says if its the throttle, kill switch, motor, etc that's the issue. However like others on the forum I had minimal response back which I think Zero really needs to address. For one thing I know they know this issue is out there and its a safety issue. I actually feel my bike is an accident waiting to happen without this problem addressed correctly so its gone 100%. I feel vulnerable pulling out in intersections, red lights, and feel that when the glitch happens at a red light that when it turns green a person will hit me from behind and I have no way of getting out of the situation. I'm happy to give them feedback on my diagnosis so they can help the public fix this issue on their bikes. The simplest thing I asked was to have my bike re-flashed with the latest firmware, but that ended up in a weird state since they said it wasn't in their databases. Thats kinda crazy, so if its not in their databases, how the heck does this prevent the bike from being re-flashed? I love the bike and their new line and the company, but Zero needs to 1) really keep the communication going with the customer. 2) Show interest in the issue and push their team for a fix 3) If any type of safety issue can occur from a defect in the motorcycle, they need to take and show that the rider's safety is priority and without any questions (unless someone opened the bike and tampered with it) fix it even if its out of warranty. Its a defect and a person's life is on the line.
Ok, sorry for that rant but I know Zero reads these forums and hope they take notes from a real customer who works in Hardware/Software QA and also drives a Tesla which I have to say they do keep up with the communication and have done many goodwill fixes on my Tesla without any question, and when it comes to safety, they want to ensure that's #1 on their list and deal with it ASAP. I will say I will be buying another Tesla in the future due to this great customer experience. Hint Hint.
So back to my issue, some things I'm going to try and do on my DS to troubleshoot:
1) Measure the resistance of the throttle and clean the POT. Possibly this has a flat spot and introducing noise.
2) Reflash the Alltrax controller with the latest software from the Alltrax site, possibly tweaking with some of the settings that people shared on this forum.
3) Possibly a contactor failure, don't know how to test that. But I'd think a contactor would work or just not work. It wouldn't be flaky. I'm also not getting any faults which people have noted that when their contactor has failed its thrown a fault.
Any ideas / tips I'd greatly appreciate.
Thanks a bunch.
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Just to follow up on the Customer Service, if you find get no response via email give them a call personally. I also recommend keeping the person's phone number and extension. That way when you call back they know you, your bike, and there's a connection.
I just called CS and my contact. He was VERY helpful, insightful and passionate in troubleshooting the issue. (Opposite of what I felt with the lack of response from email). I appreciate the time he spent and his enthusiasm and he said if there was anything else I need or help with to contact him on Monday.
Some things he said to check out from my symptoms:
-Resistance on the throttle, that it should be smooth and check for the resistance. I think 0-5 ohms (closed to open), I have it written down.
-Motor brushes, that if the motor brushes are beat that this will cause cutouts. Can take the silver cover off the back of the motor to inspect or smell the motor. If the motor smells like burning / electrical smell that that's a sign it could be an issue.
-Check the T-Handle of the battery and ensure its firmly pulled up. If that's not set properly hitting a bump can cause a cutout. Although in that case I think my lights would go out right!?
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SC; I also have DS 2010. Apart from brush failure at 800kms, she's been faultless.
As part of that repair I also sealed the tail fan inlet with a new underbelly added two filters and now suck air from the tail, around a new led taillight. I'm convinced that I sucked some dust CBD sand in shortening brush life, and initial checks show now only clean air hits them.
However last week she ran out of juice (flat) despite lots of short trips and some recharging. I'm at around 3500kms now.
Turned out to be the fuse holder at the back of the pack. They are simply not up to the task intended and virtually impossible to access and I've had minor trouble there before. I made a loom extension and replaced them with 4 DC rated circuit breakers, mounted externally for easy replacement.
Zero have been awesome and agree its about who you know but I hear what you are saying. Support on these faults on older models are far less of a focus and I'd like to keep her running!!
Thomas lives close and has a 2011, which has had a very similar issue. He's tried everything except the contactor.
When I did this last work, I spent time triple checking and lubeing every terminal in the battery pack and around. These connections are all crucial and a loose one could contribute. Although it's a fiddle, removing the pack is not so bad.
Check all contacts the big fuse holder inside, and brushes and put a new contactor in. (http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/08/arymu7y3.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/08/eta5are9.jpg)
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If one of you guys need some of the S or DS 2010 battery parts i have all these including the cells bank.
Just email me: stefspk@hotmail.com
Doc
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Thanks Doc, good to know but a pity I'm do far away I'm Oz. I'm back on the road for now, love how a $2 fuse can stop such a high tech machine.
While I have you, the 2014 are 102v packs I'm told. I'm guessing its nominal 96v and that was to reduce currents ? A pity for me because if makes grid integration harder; very limited 96V inverter chargers on the market
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Thanks NigeZero for the pics and Doc for being open with your available parts! I'm assuming the contactor is essentially that Relay looking thing in the pic with the two red caps right?
One thing is I keep my bike outside, its usually covered but it does get rained on like right now and exposed to the elements although the elements aren't too bad in santa cruz really. I do keep the motorcycle cover on it in the sun and try to keep it covered in the rain. I'm about 8 blocks from the ocean but the salty air is not an issue here at all, not like living on the east coast. My Tesla Roadster is outside and does well out there.
Will keep digging into the issue and keep you all posted. Thanks again everyone.
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I have a strong feeling its the contactor. Its been raining all day so no break to debug it. However I played around with the key on and I hear the contactor in the pack engaging. I then enable the kill switch then make it live, I again hear the contactor. I then drop the kickstand and then retract it and once again the contactor is heard. I don't hear the contactor at all when the DS goes dead and the ALLTRAX Led is green. I've played with the kill switch and kick stand and heard NO audible noises when the bike is flat-lined.
Will anything else if it went haywire prevent the contactor from engaging and making the distinctive audible noise?
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I have a strong feeling its the contactor. Its been raining all day so no break to debug it. However I played around with the key on and I hear the contactor in the pack engaging. I then enable the kill switch then make it live, I again hear the contactor. I then drop the kickstand and then retract it and once again the contactor is heard. I don't hear the contactor at all when the DS goes dead and the ALLTRAX Led is green. I've played with the kill switch and kick stand and heard NO audible noises when the bike is flat-lined.
Will anything else if it went haywire prevent the contactor from engaging and making the distinctive audible noise?
I only hear the contactor clack once. This is shortly after turning the key on, standup/down does not matter. The couple of times I had problems taking out the motor, cleaning and re-timing the brushes seemed to help. Swapped controllers and no noticeable difference. at two occasions I changed the brushes altogether. Unless I get the new S I plan to improve the motor significantly. Either with the kit from pico-amps or a with thicker brushes within the existing brush holder. This setup has been used for the Agni brushed motor working well even in racing conditions.
As for the contactor - I have not replaced yet - it is to deep buried in the battery - the 2011 seems worse to access than the 2010...
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I definitely hear the contactor (when everything is working correctly) engaging/disengaging when I lift/drop the kickstand as well as when I toggle the kill switch.
@manlytom: How tough was it removing that motor? I heard its a bear, that I believe the right side of the bike needs to come off and the rear shock removed. With all that out of it you have to somehow to twist the motor in the correct sequence to dislodge it. How many miles did you have on your Zero when you played with the brushes? Sounds like the brushes wear out pretty fast on the earlier generations. Heard at 6k the brushes were worn down and begin to show signs of gouging. Upgrading the motor sounds like a key idea with these legacy bikes.
@nigezero: Any tips on how to remove the battery pack? I'm looking at it, appears I have to start pulling the DS bodywork/cowling off. Does it pull out from the front and down? What things need to come off sequence wise if you wouldn't mind commenting to make this task easier.
It also appears the 2010 doesn't have an MBB, where the 2011 does. This makes debugging this problem one component simpler to test at least.
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SC
Sure;
First off, you should have the bike on a stand so its really stable. I use a typical rear wheel stand and attached some thimbles to the axle bolts. Alternatively chains and blocks or straps and hang it from a roof, but it will move. In an ideal world, Id have the rear wheel secure to the ground and ropes pullies on the front end so you can lift the bike off the battery. I also remove the front mudguard so you have a bit more space, but beware the small bolts and tricky to re-align; I had to open the holes up a bit and use bigger washers.
Body work comes off pretty easily and intuitively. Only trick is there are 2 small nuts under the top (near the key) that you have to get to with an 8mm spanner. You can leave the bottom/front cowling attached to one of the sides and take it off as a combined unit for simplicity. There are some bolts under the very bottom of the bike under the motor. Don't forget to unplug the indicators.
Once the fairing is off, ISOLATE the battery using the big pull down switch on the LH side. NOTE: this is 48V DC and BIG current mate. BE VERY CAREFUL not to short cables and connections. GO SLOW>
Under the bike you will see two alloy plates. One under the controller/charger and one under the motor. Remove them both - pretty intuitive and a little fiddly first time. NB; I modified the main bash plate by re-threading the two 6mm bolt nut combinations on the side of it, to an 8mm threaded hole so its much less fiddly.
The rear plate comes off easily and provides access to motor connections and more space to move.
The bash plate (once loosened) can be gently jiggled forward with the cables still connected to improve access.
Now you can lay under the bike and see everything easily. The cables and connection points on the controller are all marked, but use a marker to ID them more easily. Carefully disconnect them all and don't short them. DONT FOREGT the motor temp sense cable which is quite small and delicate, plugs in to the top. Has release "tangs" you need to squeeze. (I broke mine last week when I tugged it!). The controller should now be free of connections. NB; I replaced all 3 controller battery bolts with stainless steel allen heads with Nyloc nuts, making access easier, corrosion gone and loosening a non issue.
Now you need to get to the positive motor terminal, easiest under neath or from rear. Pull back the red cap and carefully undo the 8 or 10mm nut and delicately remove this cable without shorting anything.
Now you need to unplug the charger, a big multi pin plug that sits behind and under the rear left of the battery. It has a white locking pin and is tight.
Unplug the battery at the rear where you'll see two big multi pin plugs. They have a locking clip pin and are very tight.
From memory, that should have the battery fully disconnected look under the rear of it to check all cables exiting are disconnected. The controller and charger can be slid out to the front now. (need to twist it to one side to allow the cables to clear the frame)
Once its unplugged, open the carton of beer that will be cold by now and drink several with your friend who is laying on your couch or laughing at your struggles, who is now required (unless you have an engine stand to take the weight of the battery - I cobbled a very dodgy and mildly effective one together using a car jack and some alloy plate and blocks of wood.)
There are 4 big allan bolts that hold the battery plate in place 2 on each side. Loosen them all off and carefully remove the nuts and washers, leaving the bolts in until you are fully committed. Now, depending on your set up you have choices. Ideally, big solid blocks under the battery and with some shoving and jiggling lift the bike up and back and it should come apart. I use a car jack, which allows me to slowly lower the battery pack, jiggle it a bit, lower it a bit and so on. If you don't have either, now is the time to put your mate to work. Get him to support the front of the battery and take the weight while you remove the front bolts (i like them under the bike in case it falls it will protect your battery). Then remove the back ones and with some jiggling it should slide forwards then hit the frame rails, then jiggle the front down and at any point it will simply drop down. Iv'e done it with help but prefer a stand for obvious reasons. If you drop it it will probably wreck it.
Once its safely out you can undo the top cover, then the back cover with all the electronics and the contactor.
Easy.
Re-installation is the reverse but getting the pack back in is a real juggle I kind of crank it up and position my self at the front and push it in using my legs. NOTE - I have found this MUCH easier one you remove the chain tensioning bolt which is very (TOO) close in my case. Once you get the rear holes close youll find you have to push past them and up a bit to get the front of the pack to clear the frame, then swing it all in.
Motor removal
As for the motor, it it easier to do with battery out obviously but possible with it in. Same deal for connections as above, but remove the negative from the motor too too. Disconnect the cooling hose.
Undo or remove the chain tensioning bolt and loosen off all 4 engine bolts. NB; I drilled a a slightly larger hole in the rear brake reservoir protecting plate to allow me to access to upper bolt easier. Remove the chain and mudguard and the shock if you prefer, but i don't recall that being essential. Its so easy its worth doing and you can lube the joints. NB I found that the spring tensioner on the shock doesn't lock well so my spring was unwinding.
Carefully remove the four engine bolts and start jiggling and twisting. Its really tight and fiddly but will drop out, be careful its heavy. Re-installation is the reverse. No major tricks except might need to rotate and jiggle and twist to get it back in.
Drink more beer.
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SC Forgot to add:
use vaseline to lube all connections and ensure they are rock solid and tight. Swear to god my bike is running way sweeter since i did this on the weekend.
Make sure you properly re-engage the main battery disconnect when you are ready to test - this can be deceiving.
For motor removal tips see here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DDXucSeGdA&list=PLFBD85DFB47C3E9B8&index=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DDXucSeGdA&list=PLFBD85DFB47C3E9B8&index=1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DDXucSeGdA&list=PLFBD85DFB47C3E9B8&index=2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DDXucSeGdA&list=PLFBD85DFB47C3E9B8&index=2)
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why not use dielectric grease?
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Dielectric grease is non-conductive?
But ultimately, either will work well and DG will seal and last better.
I had Vaseline ?
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Wow, Thanks So Much Nige!
Can't thank you enough to put the time into creating the thorough writeup and the Video links. Have to say the motor really doesn't appear to be as hard as what they said it was going to be at all.
Nice knowing what I'm getting into and its very very doable. The mods as well as the words of safety are appreciated, big + there!
So before I start tearing things down I'm going to find the two wires that the controller feeds to the contractor. When the bike goes on the fritz again I want to test to see if the controller is properly sending voltage to the contactor. From there I can deduce if its the contactor that's failing (which I believe) or the controller. The controller LED is green when the issue occurs which is to indicate the controller is happy although it should be picking up that the contactor isn't working, but possibly somehow that message back to the controller gets lost. If I don't get voltage to the line fed by the controller then it's the controller that's acting weird. The key to understanding this issue and where its rooted is that clunking sound of the contactor when its working and lack of it when the problem hits.
Going to look at the schematics now to see which lines off the controller I need to tap into to verify its sending the voltage to trigger the contactor to is on state and create my debugging leads.
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welcome
Hey BTW, whiel I had it open i also added a HD pair of cable's one connect to the internal neg bus directly onthe battery and the other on the fused side of the positive. This gives me a (direct) fused connection to the battery with a sealed anderson plug hanging down (you can see it on the pic) This gives me un-adultered batt voltage and a chance to bypass everything if needed if voltage crashes below charger start up voltage or connecting an inverter or a DC charger etc etc. No brainer for $10
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Curious if you Nige or anyone has the spec on a contactor replacement part? Would like to replace it with something better that'll have a less likelihood of failing.
I've dug into the bike already, plastics off, controller / charger unbolted. I had to get this far just to tie into the three wires for a test point on the controller. Now that I'm this deep into it I might as well just pull the pack out and replace the contactor. Will also connect up to the controller to see what version of the firmware is on there (its stock) and if the one on the Alltrax download sight is more recent, flash it. I also want to tweak the settings of the controller a bit to see if I can get any more power and acceleration out of this 2010.
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welcome
Hey BTW, whiel I had it open i also added a HD pair of cable's one connect to the internal neg bus directly onthe battery and the other on the fused side of the positive. This gives me a (direct) fused connection to the battery with a sealed anderson plug hanging down (you can see it on the pic) This gives me un-adultered batt voltage and a chance to bypass everything if needed if voltage crashes below charger start up voltage or connecting an inverter or a DC charger etc etc. No brainer for $10
I need to ask you more about this offline, I can't see it in the pic. I see the stock blue anderson connections but can't see the one you installed. I have the rear of the pack apart and contactor out.
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FYI for those interested and as a reference, the 2010 Contactor and I believe 2011 contactor is as follows (printed on contactor):
Manufacturer: AllTrax
Part #: MZJ-200D/48-48A
DC Contactor
Coil: 48V DC
Contact: 48V DC 200A
Utilization Category: DC-1
Standard: GB14048.4
Available at EVdrives for about $42:
http://www.evdrives.com/product_p/sol-mzj200.htm (http://www.evdrives.com/product_p/sol-mzj200.htm)
AllTrax page:
http://www.alltraxinc.com/Products_Sys_Components (http://www.alltraxinc.com/Products_Sys_Components)
However I'd like to replace it with something better since this one failed, worse case I can put the samething back but I really don't want to be dropping nor pushing the bike again anytime soon!
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Took the contactor apart and it didn't look dirty or as messed up as I though it'd be. I definitely see where it was arching, but don't know if this would induce an issue where it'd fail to keep its relayed connection.
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Here's what my good friend who's an electrical / computer hardware engineer had to say about the pitting of the contactor:
"I would be a little worried about that contractor, the pitted area is where the current is flowing through and it is probably not as low a resistance as it should be.
You could try sanding it smooth again and see if the problem goes away. I think at this point I would want to know how many other people have had contractor problems. I can't say this is your problem but I would try and get rid of the pitting especially if others have experienced problems."
So I may try that and see how things go. Just wondering why it pitted so bad and how to prevent it.
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far out, that is some pretty substantial pitting!
Great that you have the specs; you could try elmofo.com.au they have some that look right but hundreds of dollars - worth an email to them, great guys
feel free to email me SC nm(at)solarbusinesss.com.au
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Great little guide on the issue from altrax here too, SC.
http://www.alltraxinc.com/files/Doc120-046-A_TN010-Contactor-Fuse-Diode-Lessons-Learned.pdf (http://www.alltraxinc.com/files/Doc120-046-A_TN010-Contactor-Fuse-Diode-Lessons-Learned.pdf)
Have you tried emailing them and asking for advice on a suitable substitute? I Know Manly Tom would be delighted and Id probably thrown one in the cupboard and replace next time shes open.
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Just called technical support from AllTrax. First of all what a pleasant experience! Greeted well, the CS rep listened to my entire problem and configuration, my symptoms, and then responded in a very educated fashion.
He said that contactors will have signs of pitting, that they're rated for 10,000 cycles and with these cycles pitting can occur. However he agreed that the pitting can cause issues of the relay loosing its connection and failing as in my case and recommended hooking it up to to pack voltage and making the ground to close the circuit. He said thats how they make these work and hook them up, but Zero could be doing something different. Also he said AllTrax doesn't make the Contactor, only the controller. So it appears they just supplied them for customers.
As for putting in a better / more durable Contactor, he asked what my controller model was. He came back saying its a 500 Amp and that I'd need at least a contactor rated at 400AMP continuous. I read off the spec of the contactor that was in my zero, where it said 48VDC 200A and he said I should upgrade to the 48VDC 400A contactor. So I'll try to hunt one of these guys down here soon.
Also the CS guy took the time to explain what all the settings ment in the AllTrax controller software. There was only one setting that I was able to change since the others were setup either max or correctly and that one was the "Max Output Current" which stock was 90% and we turned that one up to 100%.
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Looks like a higher quality and more durable contactor candidate:
http://www.evdrives.com/product_p/sol-400a.htm (http://www.evdrives.com/product_p/sol-400a.htm)
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That's cool, I'd love to know how to turn mine up too.. X
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Sure Nige, its rather easy. So you've never connected to the Alltrax Controller vis RS232 and the Alltrax software? I can guide you through it, pretty simple. Some youtube videos are out there that are nice to view before you get started.
Just sent you a mail to you address above so you have mine.
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So to comment about contactors. I believe there's a better contactor than the one I bought. Better meaning a better design. I improved upon it by getting a higher rated contactor. However the design is flawed unless there's a design that is made that ensures the contactor plate (circle part) and its mating contactor points are perfectly flat. As you can see in my pics, the contactor is arching and making pits. This is because its favoring in certain areas / taking the path of least resistance. And then arching / welding. A perfectly designed contactor would have the area of contact perfectly flat where the contact area is not favor in one spot but rather distributed evenly across the contacting plane. Since these contactors are made in china I don't see them using the best materials nor the best testing to ensure longevity.
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Hi,
I have a 2010 DS with 11,000 miles. I use it as a daily commuter and I love it!
My problem started with the speedometer no longer registering speed. After extensive troubleshooting (replace sensor, replace instrument panel) and no resolution Zero sent me a new battery. The new battery worked fine for about 200 miles then I developed a glitch similar to the one in this thread. I swapped out the throttle, MBB and other boards (removing and installing the battery with each troubleshooting protocol) using the old battery as a donor but the problem remained.
One day, while I was looking in the old battery I noticed that a wire coming out of the contactor had fused; I went to NAPA and bought some connectors and, $1 later, the old battery is back in the bike and running like a champ and I have a speedometer again. I still have a "new" replacement battery -the one with the glitch- that I am not using but I now believe that problem can be solved with a new contactor.
Zero has been amazingly supportive with troubleshooting guidance and always gave me any parts that were needed. I will be a repeat customer...after another 10k miles, that is!
Thanks for all the posts, this is great information.
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Now I'm intrigued - which wire was it?
A large one feeding power or a control/signal wire or (my guess) one of the wires going to the fuses ?
I'll bet it was an overheated fuse holder that stressed the wire
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Glad you had such a good experience and Zero treated you well!
Where exactly is the MBB on the 2010? In the pack and is it that very small box with thin black plastic on the left side by the anderson connector?
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So this is interesting, I'm registering 56 Volts at the battery however the contactor is a 48 volt rated contactor. Why would the battery voltage be higher than the rating of the installed contactor? Something tells me I'm going to be sending back this 48V 400AMP contactor for a 72V 400AMP contactor thats NOT made in CHINA! I don't trust China with my dogfood nor will I trust them with my voltage requirments or abuse.
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Sc; I considered the same thing bug don't think its a huge issue because the voltage will slump a bit when load is applied. Also I reckon from experience that most manufacturers who make DC gear realise that it's a nominal status that can + or minus on batteries and thirdly any one half decent then leaves 10-20% headroom. Of course, a shit product is a shit product ....
Whole the logic of going to 72 makes sense the Altrax document warned against straying too far from nominal because the contactor needs the right voltage to operate
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Right, I need to see what type of voltage swing we have. Nigel, did you say you have leads to the battery so you can monitor your voltage while the pack is in? If so can you monitor the voltage, say what the voltage is at 100% SOC and say what it is around 10% SOC? I believe the pack is at 58V at 100% SOC.
Here's the clip from the Alltrax site where it discusses the voltage rating of the contactor. Sounds safer if its a higher rated contactor, it just won't engage. However if its under rated and the battery voltage is higher it will arch and begin welding the contacts causing it to always be on.
"The coil voltage rating is important – use the
correct contactor voltage rating! Using 24 volts to
drive a 48 volt coil does not generate the required
force necessary to hold the contacts in place during
operation. Too much voltage will burn – or cook - the
coil wiring of which the contacts may not separate
when turned off. Contactor plunger binding or self
arcing will cause controller failure.
Choosing the correct current rating of a contactor
is just as critical as choosing the right size wire for the
motor and battery connections. The carrying current is
determined by the size and plating of the contacts
inside of the contactor."
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So; I'm still learning about LiPo behaviour and more specially our vintage/chemistry. At rest to about 10% dod, I have measured as low as around 50v. Under charge 57 and a bit. However, I haven't measured under load, which is where droops would occur, but I'd guess at not lower than 50 ish. One thing I've learnt is they hold volts incredibly well them fall off a cliff. I've got close but not gone off the cliff. I'd guess the controller plays in here too, possibly lowering and lifting to keep voltage more constant for the motor?
It could be worth checking dr bass or others who know way more. Having said all that, so far my 48v norm circuit breakers are working fine....
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Here is a pic of the 2010 battery with the panel removed showing the MBB and the contactor with the scorched wire.
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My guess is that the resistance was so great on your contactor due to the pitting that it began melting your connector. Mine only had 1600 miles, so yours would have to be over 6 times as worse. Looks like Zero identified that your contactor was suspect, but curious why they didn't replace that first especially since it showed signs of failure due to heat that shouldn't be there.
I may call Alltrax and run the question I have of why there's a 48V contactor in the Zero and if the 72V contactor would drop its relay connection due to being over-rated. Still looking around online and asking questions on this one to understand it better.
Any idea where the serial connection / which wires are the serial lines on the MBB?
Thanks for the pic / pdf.
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I asked a question on the Tesla Forum regards to the contator and the what the rated voltage is and got this good explanation:
"You sound like you're confusing coil rating and contactor interrupter rating.
The coil voltage is the voltage passed through the electromagnetic coil, which has a dc resistance. Passing current through the coil will engage the contactor. Depending on the contactor application, 12V to 24V is pretty typical. The main reason is that most vehicles have a 12V or 24V bus - like Model S - so it's convenient to use that vs generating a specific voltage. A 48V coil is odd. Most coils however are perfectly capable of operating over 25~50% of rated voltage, as they can dissipate the extra power safely. For example most 12V relays will have an absolute do-not-exceed voltage of around 15 to 20V.
Going by the fact that they appear to be using a 48V coil, the Zero bike might not use a conventional 12V system and instead run everything (lights, computers, fans, etc.) off the unregulated DC bus, which is rather odd...
The other rating is the interrupting voltage. This is the highest voltage the contactor can safely interrupt and still meet lifespan expectations. The interrupting voltage should be higher than the pack voltage.
You also have to account for interrupting power, the maximum power the contactor can interrupt. (Power = Voltage x Current.) There are usually "several-time" ratings (for example, inverter failure, software must abort, high current flowing) as well as a typical rating; the average battery bus contactor will interrupt current when it is close to zero, because the inverter will have been shut down by then and the only current flowing is leakage/parasitics/quiescent draw from standby stuff.
Pitting on the contacts suggests the 2nd is not happening reliably so you are wearing out the contactor quickly."
So I looked at the contactor spec on the side of the one I pulled out of the Zero more closely, the contactor does say:
Coil: 48V DC
Contact: 48V DC 200A
So this implies that the coil which activates the contactor is indeed 48V which I would have thought as well to have been 12V.
Also the contactor interrupting voltage does appear to be 48V which is under the battery/pack voltage of 58V.
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This may be the contactor that may suit our needs, but I think I'm going to give Curt a call at EVdrives before I make an order and get the full spec of this product to ensure its the right one.
http://www.evdrives.com/product_p/sol-sw200s.htm (http://www.evdrives.com/product_p/sol-sw200s.htm)
Rated Current - 400 Amps
Voltage Coil Options – 12V, 24V, 36V, 48V, 64V, 72V & 96V
Rated Voltage of Contact Circuit - 6 to 80 Volts DC
So this appears to support the 48V coil which triggers the contactor and has a rating from 6 to 80 volts where the Zero's pack voltage sits at 58 volts.
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That looks perfect, and you would make a great contribution by being a gunea pig :)
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Yes, I hope it works and glad to be the guinea pig... Another plus is that the SW200 is made in England, NOT China.
I also forgot, I believe I have to pick up a new Coil Suppression Diode since I'm bumping up my rated amps from 200 to 400. The 200Amp stocker had a 1Amp diode where I need to move up to a 3Amp diode for the 400Amp contactor. Also I'm going to install a pre-charge resistor, that is suppose to take and lessen the wear and initial load of the contactor when its 1st turned on. The Zero didn't have that, curious why they skipped it. I'm guessing extra cost. Also that may be the reason why that under-rated contactor ended up in there too.
http://www.alltraxinc.com/Products_Sys_Components (http://www.alltraxinc.com/Products_Sys_Components)
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So I went with the SOL-400 Contactor since it was already ordered and delivered. I don't think I could go any bigger and have it fit inside the battery case like the stock one. I had to file the mounting holes of the contactor to make it fit and it just fit. Closing the rear battery door has turned into a problem, a lead coming off the charger fuse hits the hot battery wire of the contactor. Also one of the fuses has the same issue, coming closer to the metal surface of the contactor. So I'm looking for more compact solutions in that area. I cut a few zip-ties and had to re-route some wiring to make the door shut. One thing to keep in mind when doing this. *** Look for anywhere there could be a short *** This means like the fuse / charger issue where an open hot lead will ground and short / spark. Also look for any place where wires can rub over time and wear down to the bare wire causing a short. If you see this re-route them and / or put a protective cover around it. I put the lower allen bolts in the rear battery door and tilting it up, looking down from the top part and bottom part of the battery where you can see the wires / obstructions / and issues where the concerns may be. I have to say take your time here!!! Don't be in a rush at this part, its very important and also you don't want a fire, to get shocked or have it fail due to cutting corners or overlooking something that needs attention.
I picked up my parts to make a pre-charge resistor and put that on as well. I may have found the reason why Zero didn't put one in there. It will give the Zero a Vampire Drain which is 0.1 Amps with the key off. Reason being is that there's no battery switch which would kill this current draw when the bike is sitting. I calculated if my math is right that a 4.4kw pack fully topped off and unplug will last 15 days unplugged before it goes to 0% SOC. Which to me is rather fast. Now I'm going to have to think the trade off now, if I want to protect my contactor / controller or not have it and eliminate the battery draining to nothing which may kill the battery where it can't be recovered.
I did find a serial com port to the little Zero computer box (mbb) inside the pack. I'm going to run 4 wires from this serial line so I may access it and see if I'm able to modify some parameters to get more performance like on the 2011 DS which has been documented on this forum.
Hopefully I make some progress this weekend buttoning up things.
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I'm throwing out all the fuses and putting circuit breakers that Nigel gave inside to the mod. My fuse and fuse holders are fine but I'm running into issues of space where the fuse and contactor are meeting when closing the battery door. Nigel put his breakers on the outside, I found a place along the top after cutting zip ties and re-routing some wires. That way they stay away from water exposure which I didn't find my breakers to be isolated from. I'm also trying to find a way to break the pre-charge resistor and have it enabled only on key-on from the ignition. Have to see how much time I need to charge up the controller's caps but I think I have time since the bike does not activate until a few seconds after the green LED comes on the instrument panel. Also going to have a hard wire lead connected directly to the pack so I can monitor its voltage and also use the pack as a power source in case of an emergency. I really want to put this thing together but patience is key, do it right the first time, take the time to design it right and you'll have higher reliability and be happier with the results :)
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Had time to put the bike together with the heavier duty contractor. I also put a pre-charge resistor in, and had that turn on when the 12v circuits get fired up / turn on. Otherwise there would be a vampire drain running across the pre-charge resistor. Happy to say so far the glitch is gone. Bike is very responsive, more than it was before. I found the serial cable leads to tie into the MBB inside the battery pack, I soldered a longer wire so it can be accessed outside the bike via a laptop. Will try to do some mods to the MBB code when I have a spare moment. I put the battery back in the bike by myself, just laid the bike on the side and carefully slid it in. If you do this you need to put some sort of padding on the inside of the frame or else it'll scratch when sliding the pack in. I also removed the front fender which made the install way easier. Will check back in after a few weeks of hard riding. I have a pretty good feeling that the wicked glitch from the west is no-more! I also removed the stock fuses and put in push-button breakers. Good upgrade, but also I had too. The larger contactor is of course bigger and the rear door didn't close with the stock breakers. I installed the breakers on the rear panel and rerouted the wires.
Sorry about the pics, doesn't make sense making a 600kb restriction across your entire upload. You loose the power of what the forum is to preserve, detail, now all my pics are grainy. Anyways if anyone needs high res pics feel free to PM me.
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More pics.
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Feels like the bike has more power and a very consistent torque curve now. Throttle is not touchy like it use to be and the throbbing pulses at 21-26mph are barely felt. I use to have a huge bog on full throttle from 0-32mph then the torque curve significantly raised. Off the line it rolls like usual but kicks in more after 5-10mph, increasingly pulling intensely into 60 mph and still pulling. I haven't tested top speed yet. I let a gas motorcycle rider take it for a spin today. It was his 1st electric experience where he's still talking about how quick, fast and intense the electric bike is hours after the ride. I think if he rode it like it was before he would have said something about its initial lag it give but it made him happy.
I think there's less resistance going across the better equipped contractor points, so more electric juice pouring to the controller and then motor. I also think that's why the reason for throttle responsiveness improving so drastically better.
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Here's a pic showing access to all 4 breakers from the left side of the bike. Also wound up is the serial cable lead to the MBB where I can externally access it.
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SC: I was there with you only a few weeks ago, well done! I'll be really interested to see if the feeling remains crisper and the throttle response issue is fascinating. You may have landed on a really practical fix
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Thanks. I do believe this contactor will hold up and stay crisp for a long time. Anything underrated gets burned up and abused, properly rated and in some cases over rated they get used as what they were designed to do and then some.
Have to stress: When you put in this or any contactor that's larger (or doing any mod in there), you can't rush it. You need to take your time, ensure you're not causing a short or that a short may be induced in the future from rubbing and shaking of the bike / battery module. I kept closing, feeling the rear panel as I closed it and kept identifying what was hitting / resisting it as well as any possible shorting. I looked from above (pulled up the pitted battery liner) as well as looked from below through the gap the wires come out of using a flashlight. After a couple of nights doing that I was able to tie and reroute wires accordingly and have the door close without any interferance.
Where I placed the breakers appear to be the only block of space where they can be accessed from outside the bike via a hands reach. I used the existing fuse hole in that area to be I believe my upper right most breaker location. I could fit two side by side, the fit was tight due to the Sevcon controller but it worked. Then dropped two more down below.
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I forgot to mention, in order to get around the vampire drain from the pre-charge (pcr) resistor I wired a 12v four wire relay to the 12V accesory fuse/breaker on the back door. That way power across the PCR would be cut when the key was turned off but then live or activated when the 12v acc was fired on which triggered the relay and allowed current to pass across the pcr.
Here's the relay I used:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D0XIFSI/ref=oh_details_o00_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D0XIFSI/ref=oh_details_o00_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DLiOcnCGL.jpg)
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SC how's it all been going? Talking to Thomas the other day who still has probs with his contactor
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Hi Nige, my Zero is operating better than new now. 100% glitch free now!
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Great to hear that; i suspect this is an important test and milestone that may solve probs for many owners of older bikes and possibly newer ones too. In due course, ill make the same mod to mine and TP will need to do it too. Putting aside the glitches, has the performance changed do you think? Better current flow should mean better everything; torque and power and smoothness, but ill be intrigued to see how long this lasts and if its just the "Freshness" factor of the new components or if its just a meatier contact.
I havent had any contactor problems at all on mine, so sometimes they seem to work just fine, but TP has tried everything else but
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Yes, performance has increased. The throttle response is smoother. I had really bad pulsing at 20-25mph, most of that is gone. Interesting enough I don't have to wait as long when I turn the key on and to the time where I get power to the wheel. That delay was annoyingly too long. And the acceleration ramps up stronger and more intense. More resistance means less current will flow to the motor, less resistance means more current can flow hence the magic of the upgrade.
When I get time I need to tie into the serial comm port leads I ran out from the MBB. Out of the 4 wires I don't know which one is RX, TX, etc.. Will be some trial and error but not a big deal. I'll hopefully get more performance after I mod the MBB's code. Looking forward to that.
If you guys have any questions let me know. Just be sure to take your time, a couple of days after the larger contactor is installed to ensure you've got all the new wire routing done safely so there's no rubbing, cutting, or possible shorts that can occur over time.
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More resistance means less current will flow to the motor, less resistance means more current can flow hence the magic of the upgrade.
And don't forget higher voltage at the motor!