ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: MrDude_1 on June 12, 2018, 09:49:55 PM
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First off... wow. Exactly what my nitpicks were, addressed. It now turns the bike on itself and talks via CAN... so it will know if the battery is getting hot, etc...
and then you can throw caution to the wind and get 3C charging if you're into touring.
Heres the facebook post: https://www.facebook.com/digiNowInc/posts/1660500230736662?comment_id=1660528467400505¬if_id=1528818254072291¬if_t=feedback_reaction_generic&ref=notif
and since some of you are not on Facebook here it is:
Introducing the SuperCharger v2.5!
After many months of hard work, and kilobytes of sacrificed code (rest in peace), we have completed our full system integration with Zero’s BMS. Our new algorithms communicate with both the monolith and power tank to ensure battery longevity, safety, and maximum charging speeds.
Some of the new features included in the SuperCharger v2.5 launch are:
1) Keyless charging. Powers your bike on when you plug in, just like every other EV.
2) Balances Power Tank and Monolith.
3) Properly limits charging speeds based on live feedback from the batteries.
4) Adjusts charging speed on the fly based on voltage.
5) Adjusts charging speed on the fly based on battery temperatures.
6) SCv2.5 units come pre-installed in our custom belly pan for an easier install than ever. Custom colors available.
7) Removes limits from v2.0. At higher voltage stations or plugs you MAY see up to 4kW per unit (up from 3.3kW).
8) Allows you to increase your battery lifespan dramatically by stopping or holding charge at any percent you like. I.e. stop at 80% every night or 60% when not riding for a month.
9) Current users can upgrade existing SCv2.0 simply with purchase of drop-in v2.5 Control Board.
10) There is no longer a limit to the number of chargers that you can put on your bike other than your own imagination.
Over the past several months we have focused on finding reliable vendors to produce high-quality parts to increase our reliability and reduce our lead times. We have also started working with automotive industry professionals in both chemicals and manufacturing processes which has dramatically improved the success rate during our QC testing. Thank you everyone who has helped us to get to this point. Without your support none of this would be possible.
You made it this far? Well, then. To Infinity and Beyond!...
11) Supports up to 3C charging as per battery designer specifications if desired. Over 1C charging will void your Zero warranty in an awesome way. As such, charging beyond 1C is only for the most elite and advanced users who pass our interview process. And digiNow requires physical access to the bike for the procedure.
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How to buy?
Price?
How complicated is the install?
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How to buy?
Price?
How complicated is the install?
Email morgan@diginow.it to get the ball rolling and get a price quote.
As for the install, I wasn't comfortable doing a self install for fear of turning my new SR into a smoldering pile due to my own inexperience. My dealer had only been a Zero dealer for 6 months and never done one of these installs either. So, I paid for Brandon to fly cross country and do the install. Air fare and hotel cost no more than 4 hours of shop time at the dealer and I had the confidence of an expert installing and testing the finished product. You can read about it here http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7894.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7894.0).
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Good way to do it! I traveled to LA from Vancouver, Canada to get the master's(Brandon and Harlan) to do my install in 2016. Though it doesn't seem as complicated any more. Many have self installed to great success!
Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk
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I'm using 2.5 with a power tank and am grateful that it's now able to coordinate with both BMS's in a way that other chargers have not done as well.
It imbues a good amount of confidence, and I think it will get better.
Congratulations - now please make web pages for this stuff, DigiNow! The unofficial manual can't afford to try making claims for things that it can't reliably cite.
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From what I'm gathering, the onboard has to be disabled in order to use the 2.5. I've asked if they could fabricate a splitter for us folks who are not pan mounting and who want to keep using the onboard.
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From what I'm gathering, the onboard has to be disabled in order to use the 2.5. I've asked if they could fabricate a splitter for us folks who are not pan mounting and who want to keep using the onboard.
I tried a DigiNow pan install and it did not end well: DigiNow could not deliver on what we agreed upon, stole equipment off my bike without my permission, and offered a compromise and release for $4122 promissory note which I have only seen a partial amount in the form of a credit card based Paypal transaction where I can only assume they expect me to eat the fees. That amount was stated to be DigiNow firing me as a customer and forcibly returning all of the electronics I purchased and had installed from them; It does not even begin to cover a return of goods as I have documented and shared to them, but as there is no blood from a stone and DigiNow is not a profitable company I took this option.
As agreeing to this C&R or not agreeing to it I was left stranded as a motorcyclist without any working charging. The other concession I was offered outside of that C&R agreement is Brandon promised on a handshake to personally reimburse my expenses for a U-Haul to get me home and additionally gave me then one of his S/DS OEM onboard charging units modified for an AUX connector and wall plug. There are basic disagreements I have with the DigiNow people but it the crux of it is they are so far over their heads in debt trying to deliver an EV charging product, their ability to function as an honorable business is seriously flawed.
I will now call out Brandon on the forums in public: Brandon, your behavior (Morgan too - DigiNow is *in fact* better off writing software not selling charging electronics!) as a business with DigiNow is reprehensible, but thanks for having some shred of moral compass to offering the GWP onboard unit to get me to the U-Haul location and to reimburse for the U-Haul; You're not a complete and total asshole although...
From the facebook post:
"Thank you everyone who has helped us to get to this point. Without your support none of this would be possible."
...well, my experiences differ greatly from this sentiment.
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Hi Shadow,
I think we all know this is not even remotely what happened. We can, and will if necessary, post all documents, pictures, and videos of how things went down. To touch on a few of the lighter points:
- There was no theft of anything off your bike.
- Not only did we give you a functioning Calex so you could get home, we paid for a U-Haul truck and gas to return you home safely.
- You were fully reimbursed for all of the chargers and parts that you personally didn't destroy/tamper with against our recommendations and damage.
Where would you like to begin? Again, keep in mind, we documented everything.
Everything.
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Wow, Shadow and I seemed to have had totally opposite experiences with Diginow. I, too, chose a belly pan set up. Brandon and I discussed the options and settled on the customized components to integrate seamlessly with my bike and accessories. I was honest with myself about my technical abilities and comfort level with handling high(ish) voltage components. I also didn't want to turn my $16k bike into a smoldering mess due to a rookie mistake on the install. My local Zero dealer is new to the brand and had never heard of Diginow, much less had experience installing one of their systems. So for the price of 4 hrs of dealership shop time, I flew Brandon cross country to do the install himself (at no extra charge for his time). Before flying out, he asked me if I would be willing to beta test some components they were developing. Now I know they were for the 2.5 version.
After the install, he stayed 2 days testing compatibility with different chargers (including tesla) as we logged several hundred miles of assorted riding. When a major bug arose hours before he was due to fly out, he decided to stay an extra day to get it fixed. BTW, the bug was a conflict with old firmware versions for the BMS and the MBB and had nothing to do with the chargers.
During the next 1200 miles, I had 2 beta components fail. We exchanged many phone calls and texts in the process of diagnosing each of the failures. Brandon probably spent 4-5 hours of direct customer service interaction with me on top of the time researching all the data, screen shots, and videos I sent. As soon as a root cause was determined, He sent new, upgraded parts which have worked flawlessly. He also built a couple of custom adapters for free to give me more flexibility charging on roadtrips.
To be perfectly clear, Brandon asked me ahead of time if I would be willing to beta test, if not, he would bring standard components. I took on the role of beta testing knowing here may be bumps in the road. My confidence that I would be well supported has been validated as I have been dealt with honestly and fairly. It's satisfying to be a small part of bringing a better product to the Zero community and can't wait to receive the parts to bring me up to a full 2.5 version.
Shadow and I had vastly different experiences while using basically the same product from the same company with the same technical advice. The only difference I can see is that did not overestimate my abilities and attempt to modify a sophisticated, integrated product. I remember reading an earlier thread where Shadow was "calling out" Brandon over his self inflicted malfunctions. I couldn't make an informed decision on who was at fault but felt there was more to the situation than was public knowledge. After now having personally dealt with Brandon and Diginow, an old truism keeps coming to mind; "The only constant in all of your bad relationships is you."
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Shadow, I also have had opposite, completely opposite experiences as you. Brandon has been very generous with his time, skill(s), knowledge and product(s). I do feel Brandon does have a minor flaw - He isn't a slave to e-mail. A response is sometimes a bit slow in coming. Morgan is there now, thus a response is now timely.
Your post is disappointing - I think it's very wrong with how you're currently proceeding.
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Shadow, weren't you told to not do certain things with your hardware, and you did it anyways? You and Brandon posted your E-mails a while ago and it appears that you went against his recommendations.
Brandon and the Diginow team have been excellent to me and everyone that I've heard of that followed his instructions. Doing the 2.5 upgrade to my setup and moving it to my 2018 Zeros, probably adding a third charger and a belly pan. I can't wait.
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Ok so I'll provide some feedback from the standpoint of a potential buyer and maybe the target market.
I just got a new Zero. I want a fast charge solution. I like the Charge Tank, a lot. It uses J1772 stations, over 6kw, the full package. But its $2300, and I like my storage space. I come on here and everyone loves the Diginow and has all these home brew type projects that look really hard and I don't want to touch that with a 10 foot pole.
I go to Diginow's website. I can't figure out what they offer. I can't figure out how much it costs. I can't figure out how to actually install it or if I'm remotely capable. Seriously, go to their website, https://diginow.it/supercharger.php. It's a big picture of a scary science project, and then a huge table with lots of intimidating numbers. I guess there are four options? Why would I choose one or the other? Can I even use a 13.2kw unit? Does it fit on the bike or go in a backpack? How does any of this work? And what does it cost?
You go to http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/charging/ and they just tell you how much faster you'll charge, and show a nice stock image of a Zero being charged. It makes me want to buy it.
I am playing dumb a little bit here (only a little though), but this is the furthest thing from a clean, polished site, targeted towards potential customers. This site is targeted towards someone who already knows what they want, how to use it, they just want a supplier of good equipment. For someone shopping and comparing to the Charge Tank, there is no contest. I don't even know what their offering IS. What does it look like? Where does it go? How do I use it. I'm getting started again.
So I'm posting this mostly as constructive feedback because it sounds like they have a good product, but as Zero adoption increases, I can tell you it's going to be people like me. All the people who are "really into this," already have them. The remaining market is more casual folks who need a YouTube video showing the installation, and need prices shown on the site.
I am probably going to try and do some research to answer my questions, but it's going to be a project. The Charge Tank is turnkey and very appealing. That's the competition here (at least for me).
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I never thought of it like that, great points. Most of their buyers come from the facebook owners group, or from word of mouth, I'd wager money. They contact Brandon, the Electric Cowboy, and discuss what their goals and budget are, and he and the Vetters hook them up. It is a very cottage industry still. The Zero offering is pre-packaged and easiest to use, like you said, turn key ready. I almost bought it last week, but I want to go further per day.
They also keep evolving faster than their web page, they released the SuperCharger 2.5 just recently. Also, they have an offering to install 1-3 modules in the charge pan space. Yes, you need to be comfortable with a screwdriver, but this install is really a 10 minute job that anyone can do.
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feedback
Your points are absolutely right on. I agree with you; the website needs help. We're actually working with a very skilled member of the community who is helping re-write it and make it everything that you and other customers want. Right now digiNow is a 2 man operation, and I still have a morning job. So yeah there's a lot of 'being pulled in every direction' going on. Some of the very wise people whose advice we seek have stressed the importance of a clean, usable website full of information so people can get excited about the product. We want that, too. Well I do, at least. Brandon busy thinking about new improvements he can make to the product while neck-deep in a sea of crimps and soldering.
In case you aren't just making a hypothetical argument and don't know how our stuff works/where it goes, it all goes under the bike. We have a custom belly pan we manufacture that fits 1, 2, or 3 of our 3.3kW units for up to 9.9kW of charging. This all takes up roughly the same physical space as the 1.3kW stock charging unit from Zero.
We offer pretty much whatever inlet option your heart desires. Most US customers will opt for J1772 (J Plug) inlets as they're the most common. We also offer Tesla Destination inlets, Nema 14-50 (RV Park plug), Nema TT-30, etc. Most European customers will opt for the amazing Mennekes Type 2 plug on their phenomenal 240V 3 phase grid. So good.
The Charge Tank is turnkey and very appealing. That's the competition here (at least for me).
Ironically the Charge Tank isn't as user-friendly as our units. As we now offer full CAN bus communication, our units turn the bike on and commence charging once you plug in; the Charge Tank does not. Also, the newest Charge Tank *only* offers J1772 even for the Euro customers, and everything over there is Mennekes.
There's a host of other features mostly mentioned in the v2.5 release like intelligent charging based on battery cell temperature, adjustable charge rates via Bluetooth, caps on max %, and the major fact that you can install a Power Tank for extra range with our units. Finally, I believe the new Charge Tank is only available as a factory install at the time of purchase of a new 2018. That is to say if you get your 2018 and decide a month later you want a Charge Tank, the answer is no.
But yes we do need to write this up better. It's one of the things on my to-do list. I do very much appreciate your feedback.
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Scotchman, I completely agree with your assessment of the website. It was worthless to me when I was researching my options. I spent a good deal of time on this forum and on the ZMOG Facebook page. When I got ready to pull the trigger, I messaged Brandon with specific questions and followed up with several phone calls to hash out the details,
With due respect to Nevetsyad, it's not exactly a 10 minute job by any stretch of the imagination. Looking at my new, expensive, cutting edge bike, I decided not to turn it into a smoldering pile of ash by making a rookie mistake so I hired a master (Brandon) to do the install for me. After watching him, I probably could have done it myself in about 4x the amount of time. What I did get was 3 days of practice charging at different types of stations and learning the secrets of most efficient use of my new super power. I went for the 9.9kw bellypan setup. The biggest advantage of this location is it frees up the tank space for a power tank in the future. You can read about my install though a link in my previous post on this thread.
Noone can tell you which route is best for you but since I plan on doing long range touring on mine, being limited to a single J-plug just wouldn't cut it for me.
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I’m not mechanical at all, but I managed to plunk in a two module SC 2.0 in my tank and run all connections. With the cables being run even easier from the pan, it seems like it wouldn’t take long. Especially if Brandon pre-wires and attached all hardware to the magic pan. Connect an inlet to it and connect it to th bike’s aux port. Done.
I can be wrong of course, but this is my understanding of the new setup.
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We actually run most of the chargers (assuming we're dealing with 3) to the bike's controller in the rear which is also the best place to mount the control board. Also we take the plug that was previously going into the stock charger and plug it into our control board. This is how our board is able to talk to the bike now, so we need it.
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No more AUX port fuse to pop. Very cool!
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What is the weight penalty? Is some of the stock charging ballast removed?
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What is the weight penalty? Is some of the stock charging ballast removed?
I haven't weighed our 3-in-the-pan setup next to the stock Zero charger in their pan side by side. I should probably do that. Ours will be heavier undoubtedly but you are also getting about 10x the charging power. Also the more you add weight down there the closer your bike gets to becoming a Weeble!
Weeble (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq0OQBdIhsc)
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It would be very helpful if someone could post some pics of a finished 3.3 or 6.6 SCV2.5 pan installation. I am wondering what the pan looks like and how the charge port is mounted. Also, if I go with J1772, do you provide an adapter so I can still plug into a regular 110 outlet? Ideally, I'd like to be able to plug into J1772, Tesla Destination/wall charger, NEMA 14-50, and 110. Hopefully, all this info will be on your new website! Thanks.
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It would be very helpful if someone could post some pics of a finished 3.3 or 6.6 SCV2.5 pan installation. I am wondering what the pan looks like and how the charge port is mounted. Also, if I go with J1772, do you provide an adapter so I can still plug into a regular 110 outlet? Ideally, I'd like to be able to plug into J1772, Tesla Destination/wall charger, NEMA 14-50, and 110. Hopefully, all this info will be on your new website! Thanks.
Here's the thing: Our units won't be noticeable on the bike. They're in an enclosed belly pan. There's no way to know just by looking at the outside if they have 1, 2, or 3 units (unless there are 2 J1772 inlets which is a giveaway for 3).
This bike has a prototype pan with 3 units installed: https://www.facebook.com/digiNowInc/posts/1654856671301018
There's nothing really obvious to see which is a good thing for the bulk of customers who want to keep things looking stock.
As far as adapters, we can make a lot of modular adapters. The idea, for people who want a *lot* of different options available, is to have adapters that feed into a J Gun which goes into your chargers. Put the 14-50 plug on and attach it to the J gun. Need a 110? Unplug the 14-50 end and attach the 110 end, etc. You could run dedicated ones for each type but that adds up quick because J guns are expensive.
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You could run dedicated ones for each type but that adds up quick because J guns are expensive.
Question. I remember looking up the J1772 "connector" a while back, and found that it was just a plastic housing around an existing connector series from somebody....seems to me maybe Siemens?
If you got rid of the (worthless) plastic gun housing, the bare connector should fit fine and be both cheaper and smaller. It wouldn't look like a gas filler then, but as far as I'm concerned that's a good thing. You might also lose the mechanical lock, I wouldn't have too much heartburn about that either.
I've since looked for that connector again, but I can't find it. Does anybody know what that connector is? It would be nice to cut out some of the expense and bulk when you're carrying it around with you.
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MVetter Thanks for the info! That makes sense to just have a single J Gun with an adapter for Tesla, 14-50, and 110. Is the new belly pan significantly larger than the stock pan? Also, how is the charge port mounted on stock bikes without side boxes? Some good photos of the finished product would be super helpful, although I understand that you are just starting to roll this out and may not have many photos yet. Thanks again.
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The new pan isn't significantly larger than the stock pan, no. It is larger and sturdier, but I wouldn't say significantly. I will eventually want to put up side-by-side pics. For now here's a prototype picture: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10159539225675366&set=gm.1496048510464352&type=3&theater&ifg=1
As far as the inlet mounting that's really up to the user to decide; everyone has their own thoughts where they'd like it to go. I will say a popular location that is out of the way is next to the passenger pegs. It doesn't stick out, it's easy to get to. Brandon tends to mount his on the left which I'm not partial to only because when the bike is charging and, more than likely, on the kickstand the right side is more exposed and easily accessible. Really to each their own.
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Once you remove the old charging unit you will no longer be able to charge from a 110v without an adapter/ conversation unit. Mine cost about $130 I think on top of the new chargers I bought. That is something that’s not made known. Any other adapters/converters you want to buy will cost you at least that much or more. I looked at the NEMA (sp?) for camp grounds and it was $400-$500. I don’t even know how much a Tesla one is. While having multiple adapters would be nice just know they are costly. Also when charging at 110v you have to change a setting in the charging unit via an app. At least that’s my understanding. I’m waiting for mine to come in. Morgan has sent me pictures of an install and it looks fairly easy. I think the hard part will be cramming all that wiring back in where the wiring on the old charger was.
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I think we were installing the special switch in yours so you won't have to fuss with the app. But we're only doing the switch for a select few because it's extra work and time is precious.
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Can run a dedicated C14 inline with the power supply for the j-plug to save the need to buy a more expensive JPlug adaptor?
JPlug > Inline Connector > power in
> C14 (or another anderson connector for use a general aux port to be used with 5-15, 14-50, etc.)
Or does the JPlug need to send a signal to the CCU ?
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I think we were installing the special switch in yours so you won't have to fuss with the app. But we're only doing the switch for a select few because it's extra work and time is precious.
So can you confirm that the normal operation is that to switch between 110v and J1772, you need to first configure the charger with an app?
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I think we were installing the special switch in yours so you won't have to fuss with the app. But we're only doing the switch for a select few because it's extra work and time is precious.
So can you confirm that the normal operation is that to switch between 110v and J1772, you need to first configure the charger with an app?
Let me try and break this down in a way that makes sense because I promise there's a reason even if it sounds weird at first. So remember that our charging units are modular 3.3kW units by themselves. They can stack together into multiples of that number for charging purposes (3.3, 6.6, 9.9, 13.2, etc.)
It makes the most sense to tie the chargers together so they're all feeding off one inlet, and by that I mean plugging in one thing turns all the chargers on and starts feeding the bike power. HOWEVER. In the US, the most common EV plug is the J1772 or J Plug. EV stations that use these are notoriously inconsistent and a huge amount of them will trip if you try and take more than 7kW out of them. Well crap that's an interesting dilemma.
Oh, I know! What if we just tie two chargers together at a time (6.6kW) and each dual unit gets a J inlet! That way you can just pull from multiple stations every 2 units and never break the station. This is exactly how the US version of the 3 units in the pan is set up. 2 of the chargers are tied to 1 J1772 inlet, and one is on its own. We refer to it as Double J or 'Dub J' charging. This means that in both the 3.3kW single charger setup, and the 9.9kW Dub J setup there is a single SuperCharger on its own J1772 inlet pulling about 16A. If you run an adapter to this and plug it into a 110V wall outlet the charger will not pull enough to trip your breaker on its own. This makes life simple with both the single and triple units. Simple is good.
Turns out a lot of people want the 6.6kW setup where both chargers are tied into the same J1772 inlet. Plugging that into the wall will definitely trip your breaker. Crap. Oh, I know, what if we just have the customer issue a Bluetooth command to throttle the chargers' rate so it won't trip the breaker? That works!
And that was more or less Brandon's thought process.
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MVetter..........thank you very much for the information. This makes a lot more sense to me now.
Now how about some pricing information or is that something that should be discussed directly between the customer and Diginow?
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For anyone in Europe:
I've ordered a set of 3 chargers (v. 2.5) in a bottom pan from http://englishelectricmotorco.com/
So far, great communication with them. I'll report back once I get started on the install.
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I'm very glad to hear Alec is taking good care of you, Jorg.
Also FYI the part about wall charging and adapters and chargers tied together is specifically regarding US charger setups. The Europeans actually have it much, much easier with their 240V power grid and Mennekes plugs. It's actually a little annoying how much better it is there. Oh well.
As far as pricing, I generally just send out individual quotes with shipping and the other options people request but I'm happy to post some general prices here for the v2.5 setups:
SuperCharger v2.5 3.3kW one unit in the pan = $2035 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 6.6kW dual units in the pan = $2425 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 9.9kW triple units in the pan = $3435 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 3.3kW one unit bare (for FXS owners) = $1735 + shipping
The box is ~24"x14"x13" and with 3 chargers weighs ~43 lbs. With ground shipping and insurance this generally doesn't go over $70 for continental US. Unfortunately this is not true of other countries where I've seen quotes as high as $700 to New Zealand, $500 or so to Europe; it's crazy. US Postal Service offers DRAMATICALLY cheaper shipping but they will not insure for a value over $650. I cannot risk that on a $3000+ order, so that's why we're hoping to work with Euro distributors who can just buy them from us in bulk and then ship over Europe for much more reasonable amounts.
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I think we were installing the special switch in yours so you won't have to fuss with the app. But we're only doing the switch for a select few because it's extra work and time is precious.
Yes I did pay extra for that special switch. I primarily charge at home or at work where there is only 110v. I wanted the Diginow so I can start riding further distances when I want to but like I said most of my charging will be 110v. Brandon and Morgan gave me that option which I love bc hate to open the app every time I need to charge.
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Turns out a lot of people want the 6.6kW setup where both chargers are tied into the same J1772 inlet. Plugging that into the wall will definitely trip your breaker. Crap. Oh, I know, what if we just have the customer issue a Bluetooth command to throttle the chargers' rate so it won't trip the breaker? That works!
And that was more or less Brandon's thought process.
A nicer option that I hope will exist in a future revision is to detect the input voltage and if it is less than 135v or so, have the default total amp draw closer to 15A. That would mean you could directly plug it into a standard 110v outlet and by default it would not exceed the maximum standard rate. You could then change it in the app afterward as needed... even nicer, make the switch between the two adjustable for trigger AC voltages and amp rates...
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Turns out a lot of people want the 6.6kW setup where both chargers are tied into the same J1772 inlet. Plugging that into the wall will definitely trip your breaker. Crap. Oh, I know, what if we just have the customer issue a Bluetooth command to throttle the chargers' rate so it won't trip the breaker? That works!
And that was more or less Brandon's thought process.
That may be the best reason I've seen for the dual-J1772 setup. Not only could you use it at recharging stations to get 10kW (on the rare occasion two outlets are available and not tied to a single breaker), if you set up the 110 input to use the single charger, you wouldn't have to monkey around with anything. Just plug it in and walk away.
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I'm very glad to hear Alec is taking good care of you, Jorg.
Also FYI the part about wall charging and adapters and chargers tied together is specifically regarding US charger setups. The Europeans actually have it much, much easier with their 240V power grid and Mennekes plugs. It's actually a little annoying how much better it is there. Oh well.
As far as pricing, I generally just send out individual quotes with shipping and the other options people request but I'm happy to post some general prices here for the v2.5 setups:
SuperCharger v2.5 3.3kW one unit in the pan = $2035 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 6.6kW dual units in the pan = $2425 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 9.9kW triple units in the pan = $3435 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 3.3kW one unit bare (for FXS owners) = $1735 + shipping
The box is ~24"x14"x13" and with 3 chargers weighs ~43 lbs. With ground shipping and insurance this generally doesn't go over $70 for continental US. Unfortunately this is not true of other countries where I've seen quotes as high as $700 to New Zealand, $500 or so to Europe; it's crazy. US Postal Service offers DRAMATICALLY cheaper shipping but they will not insure for a value over $650. I cannot risk that on a $3000+ order, so that's why we're hoping to work with Euro distributors who can just buy them from us in bulk and then ship over Europe for much more reasonable amounts.
For that price I would just fly over with a few suitcases full of them and make a short vacation of it.
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Hmm, Morgan, now I'm thinking I also want a new pan. Is it "easy" to modify for use with the Zero drop bars?
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For that price I would just fly over with a few suitcases full of them and make a short vacation of it.
I'll make fajitas!
Hmm, Morgan, now I'm thinking I also want a new pan. Is it "easy" to modify for use with the Zero drop bars?
I actually haven't put any new pans on bikes with drop bars but considering the pans mount to the exact same holes the stock belly pans mount to I don't foresee a problem.
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Question:
Can i just plug in on a normal outlet (Europe 230V 10A, or seldom 16A) and the charger figures that out (like i did now, with no additional effort)? Or do i have to limit power via app every time i charge at home (95%) or only when i need more power via Type2-charging or other 16/32A plugs?
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Question:
Can i just plug in on a normal outlet (Europe 230V 10A, or seldom 16A) and the charger figures that out (like i did now, with no additional effort)? Or do i have to limit power via app every time i charge at home (95%) or only when i need more power via Type2-charging or other 16/32A plugs?
Just upgrade your normal outlet to 16A [emoji16]
I just did that. Actually 3 phase. So, 11,1kW charging at home [emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]
Now my superchargers need to arrive...
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Question:
Can i just plug in on a normal outlet (Europe 230V 10A, or seldom 16A) and the charger figures that out (like i did now, with no additional effort)? Or do i have to limit power via app every time i charge at home (95%) or only when i need more power via Type2-charging or other 16/32A plugs?
The reply I got to that question was:
"The units will take what ever the circuit will provide without busting the fuse but the new firmware currently being revised will allow you to control current draw also."
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For a US version of a 3 unit setup I understand that there are 2 J inlets, with one J inlet powering 2 connected SCV2 units and the other J inlet powering the third SCV2.
Do you have an adapter that allows a single Tesla Destination charger to power all 3 SCV2 units?
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Yes, that's easy to do. We don't *like* to do it because we've had too many customers put a Tesla --> J adapter on and then plug into a J station with all 3 chargers, forgetting to turn them down, and then, as Brandon puts it, "blow up the station".
So while it is easy to do we generally don't offer it because we don't want to destroy the J station infrastructure.
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Do we put in our orders now for the 2.5 boards? Are they in stock?
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Yes, that's easy to do. We don't *like* to do it because we've had too many customers put a Tesla --> J adapter on and then plug into a J station with all 3 chargers, forgetting to turn them down, and then, as Brandon puts it, "blow up the station".
So while it is easy to do we generally don't offer it because we don't want to destroy the J station infrastructure.
How does that happen? is it the inrush current from the caps that does it? Or is it not respecting the pilot signal?
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For that price I would just fly over with a few suitcases full of them and make a short vacation of it.
I'll make fajitas!
I was more thinking in the direction of Europe ;) The risk of being refused at the border is a bit too high for me to bet a plane ticket on, at least until about 2020...
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Yes, that's easy to do. We don't *like* to do it because we've had too many customers put a Tesla --> J adapter on and then plug into a J station with all 3 chargers, forgetting to turn them down, and then, as Brandon puts it, "blow up the station".
So while it is easy to do we generally don't offer it because we don't want to destroy the J station infrastructure.
How does that happen? is it the inrush current from the caps that does it? Or is it not respecting the pilot signal?
He just means drawing too much current - nothing to do with inrush, just overloading.
SCv2 and 2.5 don't even hook up the pilot signal. I think this is a regrettable reactionary approach to having encountered issues with J stations failing; I would much prefer to have the signal available and read in to the unit so that the owner/operator of the vehicle can see it and make a decision about whether to follow the pilot signal or ignore it.
One other indication that used to exist and doesn't now is station voltage - there's no way to tell on SCv2 or 2.5 what the station voltage is, and the entire control regime is based on current rather than voltage (which is vaguely commendable), but there's no way for the owner/customer to see this for themselves to understand why the chargers might be delivering lower power than requested.
Without indications, the owner has no insight into the behavior of the device, and no way to know what kind of action to take. That's a criticism especially applicable for Zero that DigiNow seems to have subtly inherited.
They should publicly document and justify their product decisions to their customer base for themselves, rather than pile hasty tactical decisions on top of each other until it takes a "saga" of story-telling to explain why the product is so quirky.
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Quirky but delicious. Also sometimes less information is more. For example in the past there have been times when we did thorough explanations of what each part and component did. This lead some customers thinking they fully understood everything and would then attempt to make their own modifications based on what they saw as room for improvement. Almost without fail this lead to them bricking the chargers. This is no good for anyone.
The new approach is to say, "It works. How? Magic. Don't touch the magic please." which tends to satisfy most people. When we become perfect we'll figure out the best way to approach this. For now just accept that they're magic.
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I don't think that's a viable position for a vendor to state publicly. I'm suggesting for your sake that you try not to describe your public relations strategy in public, especially in a case like this.
That said, I'm distinguishing two kinds of paths to go down in this regard, and Zero and DigiNow have chosen a particular path that yields the current ecosystem, where the interaction starts with some unhealthy elements, and then there's a feedback loop that tends to say that the lesson is not to interact, inform, or make claims.
The reason I avoid documenting DigiNow's chargers is that I have an NDA with them and performed work under contract for V1, which makes me extra careful with information gained via that channel. I also learned very quickly that information that seemed trustworthy was quickly forgotten or uprooted, because no one wrote anything down to ensure consistency except for me, which meant that the information was constantly shifting and hard to verify.
This is not a personal criticism, so much as a process criticism. I started a process with SuperCharger V1 that led to the wiki. DigiNow diverged from that and still remains in the murky realm of technicians talking shop off the record in inscrutable ways, which I manage to mine extremely gradually for verifiable information I can turn into something legitimate.
I find DigiNow's efforts overall to be commendable as this is a difficult space for any vendor to thrive in. But there are many ways in which DigiNow's efforts have been hobbled by its own perspective, and I want to be clear that it, like Zero, may find itself in a difficult position when a wider audience with different expectations starts paying attention to this space.
But I'll say this particularly: on the road, I do not find DigiNow's offerings to be particularly reassuring over the course of its life. V2.5's protocol is a tentative step in the direction of maturity, but it's only documented in a Google Document that I wrote after painstaking back and forth trying to get what was said verbally confirmed in several different ways because it was hard to interpret.
And even armed with this document and some ad hoc tooling, there's plenty I can't reliably diagnose myself. As a sometimes test engineer for DigiNow's products, I've been under-informed the entire time, and I should be trusted far more than has been shown.
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Brian please smile sometime or I will be forced to send Terry over to you with a puppy
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Brian please smile sometime or I will be forced to send Terry over to you with a puppy
Gestures of good will wore out on me in this context, for reasons we don't have to get into but I know you understand (unrelated to DigiNow).
A little actual help would be nice. I'm overextended in the general direction of your surroundings and am trying to ensure something substantial emerges. Remember that I've only been compensated in kind so far, and I've been generous with my time, attention, and discretionary spending.
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I know I'm not the only person who has ordered one of the v2.5 Diginow's. Is anyone else doing the install themselves or are they having a shop do the install? Just curious. There isn't a write up on how to install the new belly pan with chargers yourself so I plan on documenting mine with some pictures. When I'm done I'll post it up here.
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You've also got the last of the modded Zero pans before our custom pans which is a tighter fit and took a lot of extra labor and using expensive masks so we didn't breathe aluminum dust.
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I know I'm not the only person who has ordered one of the v2.5 Diginow's. Is anyone else doing the install themselves or are they having a shop do the install? Just curious. There isn't a write up on how to install the new belly pan with chargers yourself so I plan on documenting mine with some pictures. When I'm done I'll post it up here.
You can do the install yourself. Please do this.
I am not documenting DigiNow's work publicly the same way I'm not documenting Hollywood Electrics' fairing publicly. In the latter case, I wrote the documentation for hire and it belongs to them like V1 SuperCharger belongs to the clients in that case as well.
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You've also got the last of the modded Zero pans before our custom pans which is a tighter fit and took a lot of extra labor and using expensive masks so we didn't breathe aluminum dust.
I paid you for your efforts. That's a professional relationship. I also prepaid you for further work that is still pending work that I only find out about gradually.
I put trust in the effort that way. I ask you to frame the invoice to include the man-hours and I pay for those. I like paying people for services rendered and am not a cheapskate.
What I want is a better approach with the public that doesn't lean on the unofficial wiki or my reputation. If my word means anything, it's because you haven't made any claims and are leaning on others to do it for you. That's unpaid labor and investment on my part.
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Morgan, mine had the plastic pan that you had to replace with metal one.
Brian, I wish the install was as straightforward as you would think but it’s not. Too many questions to list here right now.
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Whatever issues you guys have is between you. I’m thankful for all the work and sacrifices you guys have made. As an end user I just want a product to work as advertised and bring improvement to my joy of riding my Zero. Apple had their internal differences back in the day too.
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Morgan, mine had the plastic pan that you had to replace with metal one.
Brian, I wish the install was as straightforward as you would think but it’s not. Too many questions to list here right now.
You're right. I'm just trying to encourage you to do it and air your perceptions in an independent way.
This is how we learn, by airing our issues in a collaborative environment, not by shutting down.
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I know I'm not the only person who has ordered one of the v2.5 Diginow's. Is anyone else doing the install themselves or are they having a shop do the install? Just curious. There isn't a write up on how to install the new belly pan with chargers yourself so I plan on documenting mine with some pictures. When I'm done I'll post it up here.
I have also ordered a 2.5 charger system and look forward to installing it. I will be working on installing mine on my own. From what I understand it can be done. I will find out when I received mine and how it goes together. Im in the same boat looking for ways to make my Zero more usable. Im pretty excited and dealing with Morgan and Brandon has been great so far.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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What I want is a better approach with the public that doesn't lean on the unofficial wiki or my reputation. If my word means anything, it's because you haven't made any claims and are leaning on others to do it for you. That's unpaid labor and investment on my part.
Yeah it's rough when people don't appreciate your hard work and efforts. In the end I just get up early, go to my morning job that pays my rent, then drive to the shop to try and make a small 2-man operation work and service customers as best as I know how. If we have damaged your reputation I apologize and can only make an effort to try harder. I'll give some more thought to he we can be more helpful during my hour long drive home around midnight.
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Hey guys!
Well there is good news on this front ;)
Thankfully, our new pan install which Dr. Bass worked on with us will be ready soon. We have had a run of 100 made, but our design was off by a cm for the new 2017+ batteries. We are having to get a modification made to all 100, then they will be anodized and ready for install.
With this pan, we will finally have a final product which we can spend the time documenting. As many of you know we have been itteraqting rapidly so fast in fact that any effort to document the process would have been defunct before it was complete.
With the complete 2.5 setup it is an 8 bolt 3 connector install. Dead simple, **And easy to document! Most all of this comes from feedback from our early adopters and questions or suggestions from users. So happy that we can offer this HUGE improvement now.
Because of the modification the pans still have a little lead time, but Morgan knows better than I how much that is. Thankfully, he has saved me from having to worry about vendors and sales and all the other things that keep me from making units!
So thanks EVERYONE! Especially Morgan! He really helps keep this all going for you guys.
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The new pan design looks awesome and I am eager to adopt it.
If you haven't followed on Facebook, it has the following qualities (from what I've seen in photos and in person):
- It encloses the chargers and protect them from debris and moisture ingress.
- It solidly mates to the frame without making unnecessary contact with the battery casing.
- It acts as a proper heat sink for the chargers, which is great considering they have only a periodic duty cycle (they work for an hour or so and then cool off once the bike is moving).
- It has the right places for the drop bars / crash bars to join to just like the stock pan.
- It does reduce the clearance of the bike over the ground by the same amount as the current pan-offset solution.
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You had me at:
- It has the right places for the drop bars / crash bars to join to just like the stock pan.
I'm sold (if it works for 2016 SRs).
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You had me at:
- It has the right places for the drop bars / crash bars to join to just like the stock pan.
I'm sold (if it works for 2016 SRs).
ME TOO!!
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The new pan design looks awesome and I am eager to adopt it.
If you haven't followed on Facebook, it has the following qualities (from what I've seen in photos and in person):
- It encloses the chargers and protect them from debris and moisture ingress.
- It solidly mates to the frame without making unnecessary contact with the battery casing.
- It acts as a proper heat sink for the chargers, which is great considering they have only a periodic duty cycle (they work for an hour or so and then cool off once the bike is moving).
- It has the right places for the drop bars / crash bars to join to just like the stock pan.
- It does reduce the clearance of the bike over the ground by the same amount as the current pan-offset solution.
Cost?
Is it powdercoated and does the color match the bike's black?
Does it's shape look like an add-on or does it blend in with the bike's shape?
Is it sold separately for those of us who already have modules?
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I’m trying to figure out the installation myself. For those who have installed theirs; where did you install the fans? I can’t figure it out. Also the old charger had a brown plug on the right side. Since you don’t use it with the new charger what did you do with it? Should it be covered? The silver box that says v2.5, where did you install that? Thanks.
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If you look at Doctorbass’s youtube videos it may help. I believe these were made while helping on the design.
https://youtu.be/LGu2Lfkjpuo
https://youtu.be/66ax9zKkUDo
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Cost?
Is it powdercoated and does the color match the bike's black?
Does it's shape look like an add-on or does it blend in with the bike's shape?
Is it sold separately for those of us who already have modules?
Pans are $300 and come with type 3 anodization, the hardest available. It's a dark gray that I'm really quite fond of. The bike's frame is textured and our pans are smooth; it's very close in color.
Unless you know what to look for it does not stand out. That is unless you opt for a raw pan and get it type 2 anodized to try and match your bike for cool accent options.
It is sold separately. However we need to re-route a wire on the modules you already have and it's an extremely delicate procedure. We don't mind doing it but we're not comfortable with anyone outside of us doing it. This means we'd like you to send us back your chargers and we will mod them and install into the pan, shipping everything out as one unit. It would be a great time to upgrade to a third unit so you've got a full pan, too!
We know how crippling it will be to be without SuperChargers for any length of time, so this procedure is something we want to carefully schedule to make sure we can get your units turned around with 48 hours of us receiving them. It would also be a good time to consider the v2.5 board if you don't have one, which is actually the original point of this thread now that I think about it.
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Hi, I'm new here and drive a DS 2013 12.5kW for commuting 160km a day and have more fun besides that.
Very nice belly pan designed!
I allready ordered the 2.5 3.3kW from Alec in the UK (I'm from Holland). Good to read here the delay is for making the pan fit more precise.
Some questions:
* the pan can hold the weight of the whole bike? (for lifting the bike to work on adjusting/maintenance)
* for Europe: what kind of cables/connectors come with it?
* what kind of costs will come if I want another 3.3kW unit added to this new 3.3kW bellypan design? (extra cables needed, or allready in place and just connect the new 1?)
* I would sure like pictures on the current site of Diginow to see what we are buying ;-)
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Dennis - from previous comments, yes I believe the belly pan is still the approved lifting point for a scissor jack.
I am particularly interested in knowing how folks fit the Type-2 Mennekes connector to the bike.
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More info is better:
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That's a picture I snapped of a test pan while we were at Corbin's show last weekend. Ignore the extra cable on the table. I didn't realize that photo would make its way around so quickly. Did I send it to Alec? Hm
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Are there any holes in the new pan, I don't want to think of a flooded charger case in Dutch weather :o
Edit: ah, I see in vid you mentioned it: all cables mostly topside pan, connections above pan.
Still I think some holes would be nice to get rid of water.
We could do it, but better if allready done before protective layer.
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Cost?
Is it powdercoated and does the color match the bike's black?
Does it's shape look like an add-on or does it blend in with the bike's shape?
Is it sold separately for those of us who already have modules?
Pans are $300 and come with type 3 anodization, the hardest available. It's a dark gray that I'm really quite fond of. The bike's frame is textured and our pans are smooth; it's very close in color.
Unless you know what to look for it does not stand out. That is unless you opt for a raw pan and get it type 2 anodized to try and match your bike for cool accent options.
It is sold separately. However we need to re-route a wire on the modules you already have and it's an extremely delicate procedure. We don't mind doing it but we're not comfortable with anyone outside of us doing it. This means we'd like you to send us back your chargers and we will mod them and install into the pan, shipping everything out as one unit. It would be a great time to upgrade to a third unit so you've got a full pan, too!
We know how crippling it will be to be without SuperChargers for any length of time, so this procedure is something we want to carefully schedule to make sure we can get your units turned around with 48 hours of us receiving them. It would also be a good time to consider the v2.5 board if you don't have one, which is actually the original point of this thread now that I think about it.
Thank you for that info. What I'll do is in the fall send my two modules in to be mounted in the pan along with the V2.5 controoler. I don't need the 3rd unit yet (very few dual J stations where I travel in New England) But I'll have you pre wire it for the 3rd module and when I eventually decide to get that, it'll be ready for it.
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Hey, dukecola, any tesla Destination Charge stations where you travel? I ask because Tesla DC (unfortunate acronym) can deliver up to 18kw of A/C.
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Those of you who've got SCv2.5, paste your control strings here.
This string should be good for one diginow brick to 114V from a weak home outlet for my ZF11.4, 10 nominal workmans*:
1140,90,1,800,0,50
And this would be closer to what the onboard charger would do, charge at 1280 watts to 116.4
1164,90,1,1280,0,50
Can't say I love the protocol, but it's effective.
* A Workman is 1000 watts for an hour.
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The man on a mission:
https://youtu.be/76NR6vy9a3A
He is going for even faster charging with the Diginow 2.5 units: 4!!
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The man on a mission:
https://youtu.be/76NR6vy9a3A
He is going for even faster charging with the Diginow 2.5 units: 4!!
I think Terry has 7. But yeah Brandon had 4 until his beta test pan with exterior cables got sheared and now he's down to 3 and I NEVER HEAR THE END OF IT ("I can't live with 3 chargers, what is this peasant life, waaaaah")
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Dr. Bass certainly is creative. However, if his concern is that the front fender might hit his new charger location, it would be a lot easier to trim the end of the fender than trim the charger housing box. If you check out some of the new Italian motorcycles, such as the 2018 Ducatis, you will find that front fenders keep getting shorter and shorter and now look like styling components rather than anything that is going to protect the rider and his machine from road debris and water.
To double check that the front tire can never touch the new charger, the best method would be to remove the springs from the forks and slide them up by hand to see how far the wheel will move. If the front wheel physically can not move far enough to hit the charger box, then no worries. However, if the tire does hit the box, it is still likely that the front wheel will never really move that far since the springs will bind and prevent movement to such an extent.
So how to obtain an accurate real-world measurement if you need one? What I would do is to place a zip-tie around the sliding fork tube at the top of the slider then slam on the brakes to see where the zip-tie ends up. That will tell you the maximum movement of the front wheel under real world riding conditions. Then remove the springs and slide the wheel upward until the sliding tube reaches the location of the zip-tie and see where it ends up in relation to the charger box. If the tire does not hit the box then you are home free. From what I see in the video, it looks to me that the tire will not move far enough upward to hit the charger - but I could be wrong and the clearance really needs to be verified.
Now all he has to do is to find two chargers that are next to each other which are not already occupied by another charging customer or parked IC vehicle. ;)
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Sorry, I haven't written before now but I've been enjoying riding again. I did get most of it installed on my own but had some questions which Brandon was able to answer.
Step 1: You remove the old pan and the OEM charging unit. The charging unit has four connections. One large one on the right (brown harness), one plugs directly into the charger, and the last one is a two part. The last one is the 110V DC plug on the frame. If you take off the left passenger peg, it makes it easier to remove the two hex screws holding in the plastic charger port. The other option is to just wiggle it and break off the plastic holding charging port to the frame. The next connection is a small wire with a black harness under the seat. That wire also runs next to the old charging port you just removed.
Step 2. The mounting screws supplied were not long enough so I went to Home Depot and purchased more. M5 x 8 40mm socket screws and washers. If you look under the battery there are two fins so the charger does not lay directly against the battery. You have two fans that need to be zip tied or mounted in some way in the belly pan so it draws air out of the belly pan. That means the side of the fan with the wire faces out. I found it easier to push all the wires to the rear then mount the new belly pan loosely to the bike before plugging everything back together.
Step 3. Start running all your wires through the frame. It is pretty straightforward as the harnesses only fit certain connectors. Mine had some closed off connections for me to add a third unit later so they were just zip tied together through the frame. There is an aluminum box with orange wires coming out both sides. I placed it in the open void under the seat before the tail end.
Step 4. Make all your wire harness connections. I placed the J1772 charge port on the right side of the bike. I drilled two holes in the frame and zip tied it onto the bike and the side mount brackets for my side cases. Mine also has the manual switch to activate one charge unit or two charge units.
Notes: 1. The fans turn on when the charger is plugged in so it will sound like it is getting ready to fly away.
2. The green charging indicator will turn on.
3. It is my understanding that you can send scripts to the charger to control how hard the chargers work in case you plug into weak outlets. I don't know how to do that as I have not been made privy to that information yet. There is no app right now either.
4. I can't pictures here but pictures are available at https://emtkopan.smugmug.com/DigiNow-v25-Supercharger-install/
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Thx so much for sharing your expertise.
This is something for the unofficial Zero manual in future !
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I drilled two holes in the frame
It looks like you drilled one of the fins on the controller heat sink, not the frame ;)
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You’re right but I don’t think it will cause a problem.
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I also noticed my Zero makes more noise when parked and charging than when I’m riding! [emoji23]
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Dr. Bass certainly is creative. However, if his concern is that the front fender might hit his new charger location, it would be a lot easier to trim the end of the fender than trim the charger housing box. If you check out some of the new Italian motorcycles, such as the 2018 Ducatis, you will find that front fenders keep getting shorter and shorter and now look like styling components rather than anything that is going to protect the rider and his machine from road debris and water.
To double check that the front tire can never touch the new charger, the best method would be to remove the springs from the forks and slide them up by hand to see how far the wheel will move. If the front wheel physically can not move far enough to hit the charger box, then no worries. However, if the tire does hit the box, it is still likely that the front wheel will never really move that far since the springs will bind and prevent movement to such an extent.
So how to obtain an accurate real-world measurement if you need one? What I would do is to place a zip-tie around the sliding fork tube at the top of the slider then slam on the brakes to see where the zip-tie ends up. That will tell you the maximum movement of the front wheel under real world riding conditions. Then remove the springs and slide the wheel upward until the sliding tube reaches the location of the zip-tie and see where it ends up in relation to the charger box. If the tire does not hit the box then you are home free. From what I see in the video, it looks to me that the tire will not move far enough upward to hit the charger - but I could be wrong and the clearance really needs to be verified.
Now all he has to do is to find two chargers that are next to each other which are not already occupied by another charging customer or parked IC vehicle. ;)
Its quicker and easier to loosen the triple and slide the fork tubes up than it is to unscrew the caps and deal with the fork oil.
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Its quicker and easier to loosen the triple and slide the fork tubes up than it is to unscrew the caps and deal with the fork oil.
[/quote]
But that won't tell you how far up the slider will move in the fork tubes. You have to unscrew the caps to release the tension on the springs in order to slide the lower tubes and the front wheel up to where they would stop, as indicated by the zip-tie, when the forks are fully compressed under hard breaking.
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Its quicker and easier to loosen the triple and slide the fork tubes up than it is to unscrew the caps and deal with the fork oil.
But that won't tell you how far up the slider will move in the fork tubes. You have to unscrew the caps to release the tension on the springs in order to slide the lower tubes and the front wheel up to where they would stop, as indicated by the zip-tie, when the forks are fully compressed under hard breaking.
In either case, you just measure the distance and adjust the wheel to that position. you dont trust the zip tie while removing the spring or moving the fork because it can move so easily... you always measure first.
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So how to obtain an accurate real-world measurement if you need one? What I would do is to place a zip-tie around the sliding fork tube at the top of the slider then slam on the brakes to see where the zip-tie ends up. That will tell you the maximum movement of the front wheel under real world riding conditions. Then remove the springs and slide the wheel upward until the sliding tube reaches the location of the zip-tie and see where it ends up in relation to the charger box. If the tire does not hit the box then you are home free. From what I see in the video, it looks to me that the tire will not move far enough upward to hit the charger - but I could be wrong and the clearance really needs to be verified.
I also used Zip tie and it worked well so far from now the zip tie only go as low as 1.25" from the bottom of the fork piston.
I have riden my Zero with my wife and together we never had the wheel or fender hitting the 4th charger yet. that is a great new!!
btw you also have to take account that the fork bend a little bit too when braking so if you hit a bump or a hole while braking these conditions are the most probable where you could hit the charger with the wheel, but it did not hapenend yet after 1200km of run with it.
I will install 2 little 60mm square fan on the heatsink upper area as it get warm faster than the pan. i have found great fan rated IP68K for debrit and water ingress certification on digikey at 14$ each, however they require 24V.. so i will use a little 2$ chineese Aliexpress dc-dc converter to boost the voltage from 12 to 24Vdc.
If some are interested here is the Digikey part number: P19879-ND
https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/nmb-technologies-corporation/06025VA-24Q-CA-00/P19879-ND/6204941 (https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/nmb-technologies-corporation/06025VA-24Q-CA-00/P19879-ND/6204941)
Doc
Doc
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So how to obtain an accurate real-world measurement if you need one? What I would do is to place a zip-tie around the sliding fork tube at the top of the slider then slam on the brakes to see where the zip-tie ends up. That will tell you the maximum movement of the front wheel under real world riding conditions. Then remove the springs and slide the wheel upward until the sliding tube reaches the location of the zip-tie and see where it ends up in relation to the charger box. If the tire does not hit the box then you are home free. From what I see in the video, it looks to me that the tire will not move far enough upward to hit the charger - but I could be wrong and the clearance really needs to be verified.
I also used Zip tie and it worked well so far from now the zip tie only go as low as 1.25" from the bottom of the fork piston.
I have riden my Zero with my wife and together we never had the wheel or fender hitting the 4th charger yet. that is a great new!!
btw you also have to take account that the fork bend a little bit too when braking so if you hit a bump or a hole while braking these conditions are the most probable where you could hit the charger with the wheel, but it did not hapenend yet after 1200km of run with it.
I will install 2 little 60mm square fan on the heatsink upper area as it get warm faster than the pan. i have found great fan rated IP68K for debrit and water ingress certification on digikey at 14$ each, however they require 24V.. so i will use a little 2$ chineese Aliexpress dc-dc converter to boost the voltage from 12 to 24Vdc.
If some are interested here is the Digikey part number: P19879-ND
https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/nmb-technologies-corporation/06025VA-24Q-CA-00/P19879-ND/6204941 (https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/nmb-technologies-corporation/06025VA-24Q-CA-00/P19879-ND/6204941)
Doc
Doc
I wonder how fast the wind will spin that fan when you're at highway speed...
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Regarding elimination or reduction of fenders, I want to emphasize just how damn painful it is to be struck by a rock at full highway speed, and that exposing equipment to these risks needs to account for the smaller wires involved and any equipment attached to them.
The pain I experience from rocks, in the shins or on the hands, is not a theoretical distance memory, but an ongoing regular occurrence.
Motorcycling is not a clean-room effort. We're riding in adverse conditions by definition. We cannot afford plans made with no account for statistically likely failure modes.
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Regarding elimination or reduction of fenders, I want to emphasize just how damn painful it is to be struck by a rock at full highway speed, and that exposing equipment to these risks needs to account for the smaller wires involved and any equipment attached to them.
The pain I experience from rocks, in the shins or on the hands, is not a theoretical distance memory, but an ongoing regular occurrence.
Motorcycling is not a clean-room effort. We're riding in adverse conditions by definition. We cannot afford plans made with no account for statistically likely failure modes.
uhh...Wear your gear and you should get no pain?
I am going way faster than you and gravel doesnt hurt when it hits my gear.
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Regarding elimination or reduction of fenders, I want to emphasize just how damn painful it is to be struck by a rock at full highway speed, and that exposing equipment to these risks needs to account for the smaller wires involved and any equipment attached to them.
The pain I experience from rocks, in the shins or on the hands, is not a theoretical distance memory, but an ongoing regular occurrence.
Motorcycling is not a clean-room effort. We're riding in adverse conditions by definition. We cannot afford plans made with no account for statistically likely failure modes.
uhh...Wear your gear and you should get no pain?
I am going way faster than you and gravel doesnt hurt when it hits my gear.
First, the point isn't to highlight the pain; the point is to clarify the risk exposure of a charger's installation arrangement.
I'm talking about things I've never even seen but hammered my shins and hands hard enough to make me wince in traffic and get a small adrenaline rush. Not just kicked up gravel. And yes that's through my street gear, which isn't armored to the hilt like my offroad/performance gear, but again it's not the point.
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Back on topic for the Diginow 2.5 (bellypan version).
3.3 6.6 9.9 kW are all possible in the new bellypan.
Any update on production of the pan itself?
Is it now completely ready and can be fitted at any 2013-2018 frame?
When is it ready to be send? Or is it allready?
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We had the pans modified to fit all models because we didn't realize they moved one of the 'ribs' that goes under the frame on the 2017 models. The pans are at the metal platers right now and I am scheduling their pickup on Monday for a Tuesday delivery. Gotta call trucking companies and see who is willing to be reasonable.
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I will be in the queue for one of the next v2.5 units when they (and their belly pans) hit the UK and I wondered... does the v2.5 DigiNow have an option to schedule a charge?
I am not on a dual rate tariff but as a courtesy to our electricity supplier I would like to schedule my Daily charges to take place at night.
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I see a solution for that, get pv and charge during the day ;)
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Sadly not an option where we are... at least not without sticking the panels on a ground mount in the middle of the garden. Our roof runs north-south, the morning sun is shadowed by a neighboring house, the midday sun is shadowed by large trees to the south and only the evening view is open but it is our principal view.
So, any idea if the DigiNow app allows scheduled charging yet?
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Solar carport/serre perhaps?
But you could also just put a decent timer on your outlet.
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A suitable timer would work while I had the bike on the 3-pin 1.3kW standard charger but not when I have the DigiNow plugged into the Pod Point 7kW wall charger.
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A suitable timer would work while I had the bike on the 3-pin 1.3kW standard charger but not when I have the DigiNow plugged into the Pod Point 7kW wall charger.
You can lower Diginow 2.5 with app (is it?) , so put it on 1.3kW. For the night no problem, you sleep. And 1.3kW charging will not hurt the net also, so just plug in without timer.
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A suitable timer would work while I had the bike on the 3-pin 1.3kW standard charger but not when I have the DigiNow plugged into the Pod Point 7kW wall charger.
You can lower Diginow 2.5 with app (is it?) , so put it on 1.3kW. For the night no problem, you sleep. And 1.3kW charging will not hurt the net also, so just plug in without timer.
I don't think it saves that setting, I think it is a "this session" setting. That said, it should dial itself down to 1.3kW when run on 120VAC (i.e. if functions as a replacement for the onboard factory charger when plugged into North American household voltage). Why charge at 7kW overnight?
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With DigiNow's permission, I've published some documentation of the v2.5 protocol and linked to a Google Doc I've been maintaining for my own sake. Contributions are invited, especially for installation.
https://zeromanual.com/index.php/DigiNow/Super_Charger_V2.5
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@togo Why charge at 7kW overnight?
Because I will be using a single 3.3kW DigiNow unit, because I will have a wall unit supplying up to 7kW and it has been mentioned on other EV forums that higher charge rates compared to the granny cable reduces heat loss and the overhead for running the system for a long period is reduced.
Thanks for the updated manual, Brian. I don't see any reference to Scheduled Charging in it so I will assume no schedule is possible unless someone comes forward to correct me.
At the moment my electricity provider does not offer a cost-effective charging tariff for a small EV but it is not impossible that in the future a dis-incentive for charging at peak time may be implemented. I may make a suggestion to Brandon and crew that a timer is a useful addition for a future version of the charger since in the UK it is considered that the vehicle will set charging schedules rather than the wall unit which merely supplies the requested power.
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No, there is no scheduling functionality onboard the controller. You would have to implement scheduling by scripting a mobile app.
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With DigiNow's permission, I've published some documentation of the v2.5 protocol and linked to a Google Doc I've been maintaining for my own sake. Contributions are invited, especially for installation.
https://zeromanual.com/index.php/DigiNow/Super_Charger_V2.5
Thank you Brain for sharing this. I was wondering how the Bluetooth communication would work. Great Documentation. Thank you both Doctorbass and Brian. Very much appreciated.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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With DigiNow's permission, I've published some documentation of the v2.5 protocol and linked to a Google Doc I've been maintaining for my own sake. Contributions are invited, especially for installation.
https://zeromanual.com/index.php/DigiNow/Super_Charger_V2.5
Great detail !
Love to see it live when my 2.5 arrives, especially the Blue tooth monitoring/ adjusting.
Thx for the effort and getting permission from Diginow.
Really appreciated ;)
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On the interface:
1 Diginow 2.5 unit.
What will happen:
• 4kW instruction (will it ask for 4, but if it only can do 3.9 it's not a problem for charger?)
• 6kW instruction (will it ask for 6, but if it only can do 3.9 it's not a problem for charger?)
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Removing standard 1.3kW bellypan, charger, kabels:
NewZeroland made good video again:
https://youtu.be/DFHQgTOMxO8
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On the interface:
1 Diginow 2.5 unit.
What will happen:
• 4kW instruction (will it ask for 4, but if it only can do 3.9 it's not a problem for charger?)
• 6kW instruction (will it ask for 6, but if it only can do 3.9 it's not a problem for charger?)
The target power is definitely a maximum. I don't know what to tell you about requested versus actual, except that it may vary due to:
• Station voltage for an entire session or as load increases, called sag.
• High charger temperature after the first (maybe) half hour.
• A capacity limit being approached by one battery/BMS, usually a Power Tank but applies to any module on an FX.
• Battery voltage reaching the target level, triggering tapering. This will be a linear effect at the end of a session.
The charger temperature feedback should update which after a while should indicate when the controller starts cutbacks, but I haven't had time to work that out since you have to monitor it live to know. This is implemented by the charging units themselves, IIUC, and therefore is reliable even if the controller or fans fail.
There is definitely a design idea that the chargers are meant to operate as high performance travel units, which means a duty cycle of:
1. Charge fast.
2. Immediately ride, to cool the chargers down.
Or charge slow (under 40% capacity, say?). I've charged at 110V using 2 units at once at 50% power specification to get this effect. Charging at 30% specification on 3 units would distribute the power even more but I'm not configured yet to try this.
I would like to know at what level the fans turn on, and try to de-rate the chargers to avoid that, since I use a charger in place of my OEM onboard charger and would like to make it quiet(er) and last as long as possible.
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One other factor we need to consider is the Efficiency of the charger(s) at a certain load.
Thinking of PC power supplies, they have an efficiency curve that falls off at either extreme and is usually at its best between about 60% and 80% of max load. It may be better to run the charger(s) at about 75% for the run up to 80% SOC and suffer the fan noise rather than coax the battery up to that point by running the chargers really gently.
It would be nice to hear from Brendan (at the appropriate time of course) to see what he advises.
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Thanks for posting that great video, Dennis. I think even I could remove the stock charger after seeing NewZeroland do it. :)
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Thanks for that great video, Dennis. I think even I could remove the stock charger after seeing you do it. :)
I didnt do it: NewZeroland did, he's great.
Sorry. My apologies to NewZeroland. But thanks for posting his video. I'll correct my post.
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Indeed it's mounted in a more simpler way than I would have expected, I also didn't saw the Anderson plug coming.
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Thanks for this! I've been running around for a few weeks with two active SCV2.5's and an inactive stock onboard, but this helped me get off my butt and remove the old charger last night...
Removing standard 1.3kW bellypan, charger, kabels:
NewZeroland made good video again:
https://youtu.be/DFHQgTOMxO8
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OMG...I read through this and my brain hurts! I'm computer illiterate, but need to be able to dial back my 2x SCV2.5's for 110V wall charging on occasion...is this my best bet?
With DigiNow's permission, I've published some documentation of the v2.5 protocol and linked to a Google Doc I've been maintaining for my own sake. Contributions are invited, especially for installation.
https://zeromanual.com/index.php/DigiNow/Super_Charger_V2.5
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OMG...I read through this and my brain hurts! I'm computer illiterate, but need to be able to dial back my 2x SCV2.5's for 110V wall charging on occasion...is this my best bet?
One of our other customers wrote up the following:
: 1. Download [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.kai_morich.serial_bluetooth_terminal&hl=en_US this] app for android
: 2. Open the app and select the Menu button in the top left corner, then Devices, then Bluetooth LE
: 3. Plug in the charging system / motorcycle to a power source
: 4. Press scan on the app on your phone
: 5. You should see a device discovered which includes SCv2 in it's name, select that device, the left side of the menu item should turn green
: 6. Press the menu button again, then Terminal
: 7. Once in the Terminal View, press the connect button on the top right hand corner to the left of the trash can icon
: 8. The terminal should indicate a successful connection and there will be CSV output approximately once a second
: 9. Enter a CSV string corresponding to the following - End voltage,battery amp hours,number of chargers,target wattage,1C+ flag,ramp rate in watts
::My CSV config strings:
:::-6.6kW wall charging
:::1164,104,2,1300,0,50
:::-6.6kW EV station charging
:::1164,104,2,6600,0,50
: 10. Select or compose an appropriate CSV string for your setup and input it in the entry at the bottom of the app and send it to the charger by pressing the arrow button to the right of the entry
: 11. Observe either through the zero app or some meter that the actual wattage is as desired.
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Yup, seems the same as in manual.
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The explanation written in the manual is overly verbose to get people through the first time. I can understand it seeming offputing.
To be fair, this protocol is not meant for human consumption. This control+monitoring system deserves a proper UI.
For now, we can definitely tighten up the language or make the description generic and simpler. I'm not sure which to do yet.
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Here are some failure conditions I've found:
- Invalid inputs may result in the charging controller "crashing".
If this happens, unplug the chargers and wait several seconds for everything to turn off before plugging back in again. This should reboot the controller to the last settings.
- Terminating the charge unattended (slow charging to 112V triggered this for me recently) sometimes results in a CAN error which requires unplugging the chargers and waiting for the bike to reset (10 seconds or so).
This seems harmless so far, probably due to some message timing issue across firmware versions or something.
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I wonder how fast the wind will spin that fan when you're at highway speed...
Got my Zero to reach 175km/h ( dash display during a run) and these fan still work like a charm! dontr forget that on the back of these there is the original heat sink fins that restrict the airflow bi building pressure on the back of these...
I drove 2380km last week at 500km/day and So far so good these have eated fly, debrit, leaf and high pressure water and still work perfectly like i was expecting!! and they keep the front charger unit to about 35-40 Celsius max even with outdoor temp to 30 celsius no wind with direct sunshine to it.
Doc
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Is this thread still the best place to keep up with progress? Or is a Facebook page getting more updates? I've only been using this thread to keep up so far.
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This is pretty good, but I get the impression they are more responsive to questions on f-book.
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For those who ask or wonder,
I’ve been using my pan design for now over 2500km and here are the facts :
-The chargers only transfer VERY MINIMAL heat to the battery. The battery itself heat A LOT more when being used or charging. I will prove that by measurement in the next weeks.
-The Charger pan drain water perfectly and all installation inside are made to support debrit if they can enter to the pan however there is minimal area where debrit can enter look for yourself
-If the bike suspensions are adjusted and tuned LIKE THEY ALWAYS SHOULD, the pan clearance to the ground is ok even for use with passenger on the bike. IT IS IMPORTANT TO READJUST THE PRELOAD IF YOU HAVE THE POWERTANK ANDALSO IF YOU HAVE THE CHARGER PAN
-If Diginow include proper wire lenght between the chargers and the Zero the pan installation is easy to install.
-The bike center of gravity remain very good with the charger pan and it handle as well or even better with it.
-The air gap between the top of the chargers in the pan is about 1cm while the air gap between the stock 1.3kW charger is 1mm this make a huge difference in thermal isolation as the charger pan have air convection that help draining the heat by convection.
-The Stock 1.3kW charger hottest surface is the closest to the battery ( on top of the charger) while the charger pan hottest surface is on the bottom an dthen cooled by the surrounding pan itself.
- I discussed withmy friend Luke, The Key designer of the Zero battery and he said that even with the stock 1.3kW charger the cell to cell thermal transfer is calculated to spread all the heat over the entire battery so the bottom cell and the top cell of the monolith should not have very big temp difference meaning that the battery act like an entire volumetric heatsink so the battery temp does not have a hot spot.
-The heat transferred to the battery is equal or less important with the charger pan even at 13kW than the heat transferred by the stock 1.3kW charger due to the air gap and convection difference between both and the location of the hottest surface area of the two chargers design.
Doctorbass
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Sounds great Doctorbass. That all makes sense. I have a question or an observation. Benswing is doing his ride right now and he has his three chargers under the battery. He has been having heat issues. I can see a pan under the bike but not sure if its the Diginow pan or not, or if its another design. I know they are Diginow chargers inside the pan from his description. He has been having major heat issues while on his trip. He usually has to switch to his elcons because he will notice the battery heating up during the charge. Going from 95-99F to 124F and then the chargers back off on the charge rate or stop charging at all. Im guessing maybe he doesn’t have the air-gap like these pans do or he is having other issues causing the heat. One of his last videos the other day the pan got so hot he couldn’t put his hand on it. So it does show a low to heat gets transferred to the pan.
I checked my bike just for information purposes. If I go for a ride at lunch on a 90F day my battery will usually be 99F when I get back to work. When I charge with the stock charger it will stay pretty much right there and not cool anymore even when its above the 80% charge. Once the charge is done it will cool to ambient temps. So heat gets transferred but not more than 99F sitting in a 86F garage using the stock charger. I also checked with the battery at ambient in the same garage and temps and the hottest the stock charger got the battery was 98-99F.
Edit: After posting this about the stock charger I was incorrect. Today was another example of the garage being about 88 degrees. I came in when the charge was at 100% but still finishing charge. The battery temp was 115 at the end of the charge. On the way home it got to 117 and settled back at 115 while riding.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Now Diginow just needs to get their prices down. The current pricing is a little too rich for my taste.
SuperCharger v2.5 3.3kW one unit in the pan = $2035 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 6.6kW dual units in the pan = $2425 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 9.9kW triple units in the pan = $3435 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 3.3kW one unit bare (for FXS owners) = $1735 + shipping
For me I'm fine with initial cost on 3.3kW.
Belly pan and internal cables and control unit and (for me) Mennekes socket.
So also price difference from 1 to 2 is oke.
But from 2 to 3 I don't understand.....
Why adding 1 more differs from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3?
I buy 3.3kW with intention to get some more money and go 1 to 2.
Save some more and go from 2 to 3.
But if this stays I prob go for another party too buy the 3rd one :-[
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Is it because the third charger adds extra wiring and an extra 7kW charge cable socket?
From folks who use three (or more) chargers on their bikes I remember them saying that chargers one and two are paired into one 7kW socket and three (and four if they have it) go to another 7kW socket. If they want to use that much charging, they have to find a charging station with multiple outlets.
Am I remembering that correctly?
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Is it because the third charger adds extra wiring and an extra 7kW charge cable socket?
From folks who use three (or more) chargers on their bikes I remember them saying that chargers one and two are paired into one 7kW socket and three (and four if they have it) go to another 7kW socket. If they want to use that much charging, they have to find a charging station with multiple outlets.
Am I remembering that correctly?
Sounds oke, for America, but in Europe we just need 1 Mennekes, so hope they take that in account.
So our stations mostly can output 10kW and more.
And personally with the usage in Holland I will probably get discussions with other people if I would use 2 sockets for a little bike....
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Apart from some single phase home chargers about every charging station in the Netherlands is at least 11kW, and with a 22-43kW station just a few kilometres away.
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So that brings us back to Dennis-NL's question of what causes the third DigiNow to cost so much more than the second...
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So that brings us back to Dennis-NL's question of what causes the third DigiNow to cost so much more than the second...
The third charger would produce a total of 96Amp of Dc current to the battery. The AUX port can take 70A continuous so it is required to have additional wirring to the controller for the third charger so the two first produce 64Amp to the 70A connetcor and the third charger send his 32A to the additional added AUX port. Also most station give 30 or 32A AC and this is fine for 2 charger but when you ad a third one, it require additional J1772 connector ( for north america user mostly as we dont have the meneke 3 phase system)
So that's what add cost..
Doc
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So that brings us back to Dennis-NL's question of what causes the third DigiNow to cost so much more than the second...
The third charger would produce a total of 96Amp of Dc current to the battery. The AUX port can take 70A continuous so it is required to have additional wirring to the controller for the third charger so the two first produce 64Amp to the 70A connetcor and the third charger send his 32A to the additional added AUX port. Also most station give 30 or 32A AC and this is fine for 2 charger but when you ad a third one, it require additional J1772 connector ( for north america user mostly as we dont have the meneke 3 phase system)
So that's what add cost..
Doc
Thanks for explaning this!
Brings me to a new question tho:
I have a 2013 DS with a replaced battery: 12,5kW, is the wiring/connectors in my Zero good enough for 6,6kW and/or 9,9kW total?
I start with 3,3kW because of initial costs.
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So that brings us back to Dennis-NL's question of what causes the third DigiNow to cost so much more than the second...
The third charger would produce a total of 96Amp of Dc current to the battery. The AUX port can take 70A continuous so it is required to have additional wirring to the controller for the third charger so the two first produce 64Amp to the 70A connetcor and the third charger send his 32A to the additional added AUX port. Also most station give 30 or 32A AC and this is fine for 2 charger but when you ad a third one, it require additional J1772 connector ( for north america user mostly as we dont have the meneke 3 phase system)
So that's what add cost..
Doc
Is there any reason to use both inputs (aux and controller) versus just connecting all three chargers to the controller?
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It was born out of convenience. When we used to do dual unit tank installs you could put that much power through the aux without any fear of overloading it. Now that we're running 3 in the pan together consistently we do run everything through the controller, but at first we were splitting because it was convenient and we had some wiring made to that length already. Also it was really cool to be able to buddy charge that way.
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The accessory charging port offers some electrical protections that most people should prefer.
Working with the controller terminals requires careful attention to torque and threading, to say nothing of the electrical hazard.
I do not perform buddy charging, and don’t think the DigiNow controller is engineered robustly for the task. It’s a stunt for knowledgeable insiders.
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A stunt for knowledgeable insiders and a total bro move 8)
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But, any date of delivery 2.5 and Belly pan?
Is it in production now for real or part problems?
Are there customers allready getting 1?
Is there any news?
Because my English dealer has no idea.
Does it takes another week, weeks or months?
I'm fine with any as long as there is a delivery date.
Not knowing is wurst than having something to focus on.
And I still can't believe how hard it is to adjust a single page at Diginow site.... it still shows info about V2.0 and nothing about 2.5 and Bellypan.
....
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I expect Branden's bike accident threw a bit of a spanner in their schedule. All I know is that it is due "August" according to my dealer (probably the same one you asked).
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I expect Branden's bike accident threw a bit of a spanner in their schedule. All I know is that it is due "August" according to my dealer (probably the same one you asked).
Alec Sharp is doing his very best to fulfil our dreams with Diginow 2.5 fast charging.
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I'm finally getting a chance to install my 9.9kW charger. I'm concerned that I may be missing a Y cable to connect the two Grey SB connectors to the Brown SBS Anderson that was unplugged from the OEM charger. Here is a pic of all the parts that were included in the box I was sent. I have everything wired and hooked up, but cannot figure out how the chargers are supposed to hook up to the battery lead with the parts that were supplied. Am I missing something?
(https://i.imgur.com/tGeQYlF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xryxg9H.jpg)
*mod edit* add img width(s)
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Snow4us ...
You appear to be missing the Y connector which goes from the two gray SB connectors to a SBS75x connection which is plugged into your AUX charging port, or to a controller linked SBS75x connector (to bypass 100amp fuse on most charging ports)
If I recall correctly you cap off the stock charger port.
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Isn't there any manual included with parts included and stuff?
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Isn't there any manual included with parts included and stuff?
No, there is not. I maintained V1 documentation and since V2 have not been involved or seen uptake on this effort on DigiNow's part. I have not heard persuasive or pragmatic reasons given for this.
To assist, after waiting for some kind of approval, I have started adding to the wiki and maintaining a Google Doc:
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/DigiNow/Super_Charger_V2.5
https://zeromanual.com/wiki/DigiNow/Super_Charger_V2
For what it's worth, my first reaction on seeing the "V1" prototype demo in late 2015, and hearing about all the bike theory that was needed to understand how the demo was arranged, I said aloud: "Is any of this written down? You know people will screw this up if they don't understand how it or their bikes work". Thus, the wiki was born over the next year, and I became the technical writer around here...
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Just an update on Brandon wich is given by email:
Because of his serious accident his recovery will at least take another 2 weeks, but probably 4 weeks.
So be well Brandon, health is most important right now!
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Any update on Brandon?
So he was hit by the closing fence on a railroad crossing.
That's like... 1 in a million, what a creepy accident.
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Any update on Brandon?
So he was hit by the closing fence on a railroad crossing.
That's like... 1 in a million, what a creepy accident.
He's video-posted again to Facebook yesterday, and seems to be recovering quickly but still requires a lot of pain medication.
There's a Motorcycles and Misfits podcast a few weeks ago (somewhere in the episode 262-266 range; can't recall it offhand) where they discuss what happened.
The gist (how I interpreted it) is that he had some kind of recurring kickstand position sensor issue with his Energica, and on his way to a Supercharger appointment with the pan on his back, was trying to get the bike going from a standstill in traffic in front of an intersection, and when it launched the gate was lowering.
It's a terrifying prospect but the point on the podcast I agree with is that this sort of thing is avoidable, and I'd like everyone to remember to take it easy with motorcycles, especially high-performance bikes. When a problem comes up, try to focus on relieving the risk and tension first. Call ahead and say you'll be late to an appointment; take the safer bike; keep heavy loads off your back; whatever it takes to keep the risk down.
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Any update on Brandon?
...
...
Call ahead and say you'll be late to an appointment
...
Agree, probably afterwards Brandon agrees totally, but things happen, bikes are not only fun.... 8)
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Facepalm... why did you guys have to be the last poosts in here smh.
Yes, I agree, Brian is right these things are totally avoidable.
I am recovering day by day, I did a day in the shop with Morgan and Zack today. I am really getting better fast, but I think perhaps I need a little bit more recovery before attempting too many more days like this. I never realised how physically demanding building these was!
I have an appointment with my neuroilogist at stanford tomorrow to take a look and see how every thing is healing. I hope to have good news! And thank you again for all of your support!
Best!
Brandon
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Thx Brandon for responding and sharing your thoughts (and you are getting better)!
Here just a copy from your other reply wich has really good info for this topic also.
Just click the yellow link for the full text:
...
We are the only charger in the world that communicates with the ZERO BMS and we are the only non OEM charger in the world which will not void the warranty and backs that up with its own warranty, guarantee, and direct support with Zero.
...
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Hello Everyone,
I don't have Facebook and only go on here once in awhile. I stopped by the Zero Motorcycles public forum this morning and saw and update from Brandon. I can't log in but at least I can read a bit before facebook kicks me back to the top of the screen. Great news and so sad to hear about his accident. I heard about it the other day while catching up on the Motorcycles and Misfits podcast, then saw it on this forum post and now on the Facebook group. I am sorry to hear about Brandon's accident but really happy that he is doing so well so quickly. Good to hear in this video that he is in good spirits and looking to get back into his normal activities. Heal up fast and good to hear from you. I wish there was something I could do from across the country but its good to hear that he has really good friends around to help out. Best wishes.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/
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Oops, I have ordered 6,6kW/h bellypan for my 2013DS (with 12,5kW battery).
But will it blow the internal fuse on a 2013 model?
What is max?
Or is the main connector (of the standard 1,3kW/h charger) higher rated than the connector at the rear wheel?
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Oops, I have ordered 6,6kW/h bellypan for my 2013DS (with 12,5kW battery).
But will it blow the internal fuse on a 2013 model?
What is max?
Or is the main connector (of the standard 1,3kW/h charger) higher rated than the connector at the rear wheel?
For a stock 2013 bike, 6.6kW will blow the fuse on the accessory charging circuit. The 2013 charging fuse and circuit are rated for 30A DC, separately from the onboard charger.
Since your battery was upgraded per the battery recall for 2013, it will be 100A (but effectively 95A), so you can plug your 6.6kW into that circuit without a problem.
I do not know whether the onboard charger in such cases counts towards that fuse’s current, but I would expect it to, because that’s true for 2014+ models.
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By the way, you can check the fuse yourself while the bike is turned off and unplugged.
The rating should be printed on the side of the fuse.
To be clear, you’d:
- Key off the bike
- Unplug any charging to the bike.
- Wait at least several minutes.
- Take off the seat.
- Look around the left side of the doghouse area for the high voltage fuses.
- Unscrew the caps holding the fuses - one will be for the charging circuit, and there’ll be another for the DC converter / etc.
Zero’s owners manual talks about this better than I can explain.
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Thx Brian!
I will check it to be sure.
But the 2.5 version will use the connection for onboard charger (replace), so this is different?
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2.5 uses the onboard charger’s communication connector, which does not transmit power.
I believe the product sent plugs power into the accessory charging port. That is the default; the other connection is an add on.
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Question about the belly pan - I understand that if you want the 3 charger setup, you must get the new larger belly pan. But if you're going with 1 or 2, can you reuse the stock belly pan?
I found this image of a Zero with a Diginow installed, wondering if they all look this way regardless of number of chargers: https://emtkopan.smugmug.com/DigiNow-v25-Supercharger-install/i-f2JZBzP/A
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3 will fit in the stock (steel) pan.
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Question about the belly pan - I understand that if you want the 3 charger setup, you must get the new larger belly pan. But if you're going with 1 or 2, can you reuse the stock belly pan?
I found this image of a Zero with a Diginow installed, wondering if they all look this way regardless of number of chargers: https://emtkopan.smugmug.com/DigiNow-v25-Supercharger-install/i-f2JZBzP/A
The larger belly pan accommodates the height of the DigiNow chargers, and doesn't need what appear in the photo to be standoffs between the frame and the stock pan.
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The replacement from Diginow
quote author=originalspacerob link=topic=8049.msg68400#msg68400 date=1531277026]
If you look at Doctorbass’s youtube videos it may help. I believe these were made while helping on the design.
https://youtu.be/LGu2Lfkjpuo
https://youtu.be/66ax9zKkUDo
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[/quote]
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Thanks, so my understanding is that although the chargers will "seat" in the stock pan, they are too tall for the pan to be reattached properly, hence the need for the new pan regardless of the number of chargers. If that is not correct, please let me know.
Second question... my understanding is that if you were to get the 3 charger option, you need a 2nd J1772 inlet because EVSE's are "trippy" once you start drawing too much current from a single source. I know that part of the J1772 standard is a pilot signal that tells the connected vehicle how much current is safe to draw, so does the DigiNow charge setup ignore this pilot signal, in favor of relying on a value in the configuration string that the user supplies when switching between 120v and 240v sources?
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> Thanks, so my understanding is that although the chargers will "seat" in the stock pan, they are too tall for the pan to be reattached properly, hence the need for the new pan regardless of the number of chargers...
Essentially correct. Stock pan can be made to work with spacers, that was an early prototype, not nearly as solid a design as doctorbass'/diginow
> Second question... my understanding is that if you were to get the 3 charger option, you need a 2nd J1772 inlet because
> EVSE's are "trippy" once you start drawing too much current from a single source.
Well, some EVSE can supply 3kw, some can supply 6.6kw, some (rare ones) can do more (suncountryhighway.com). You can also use a Tesla Destination inlet instead of J1772, and some of those can do 18kw (tesla.com/findus and filter so the superchargers go away)
> I know that part of the J1772 standard is a pilot signal that tells the connected vehicle how much current is safe to draw, so does the DigiNow charge setup ignore this pilot signal, in favor of relying on a value in the configuration string that the user supplies
Yes
> when switching between 120v and 240v sources?
No. They automatically switch to 1.3kw which typical north american household outlets tolerate at 120vac, and you can tell them how much to draw with the string (or an app, soon, i hope) for 240v.
240v is the variable one. Most north american "240V" sources have 30A or 50A breakers, and those ratings are not for continuous load, but should be derated to 80% for continuous load, so that's 4.8kw (80% of 30A@200VAC) to 9.6kw (80% of 50A@240VAC). There do exist some 80A J1772 stations, presumably on a 100A circuit (I've got some of them identified on the metamap that I found through suncountryhighway) and of course those would be 16kw (200v) - 19.2kw (240v) which corresponds nicely to the max for Tesla Destination stations, which can be as high as 18kw (80A*220V=17600watt).
HTH
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That is supremely helpful, thanks togo!
I'm a little surprised to hear that my guess about ignoring the pilot signal was correct. That seems like it could be dangerous, if I roll up to a station, I have to correctly guess how many amps I can get out of it. If I overestimate, best case is the breaker trips. Worst case is...
Perhaps I'm just being alarmist. But if I were looking at buying a diginow (in the market for a zero now, we'll see if that ever comes to pass), I'd want to be confident that it was standards-compliant and would "just work."
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Someone published a graph sometime, IIRC it was the good Doc, but I can't find it now. But the upshot of the graph was that the Diginow will only draw 1.3kW from <150VAC or so; above that it will draw more current as the voltage increases (the opposite behavior you'd expect from a switching power supply), apparently attempting to avoid overloading the source if the voltage sags. It's hard to imagine how that would help unless the source is somehow smart enough to reduce the available voltage as current draw goes up, which isn't how most power lines work. Typically they'll maintain full voltage until the breaker blows. But it looks like Diginow at least made an effort to accommodate and correctly handle underpowered lines.
My experience is limited to a single time on one of those charging stations that shares a single 50A line between two chargers. It didn't work. A Leaf was charging when I pulled in, and when I hooked up, the breaker blew and we both lost power. Yay.
Fortunately, it seems like most new installations aren't siamesed like that. I think it was a bad idea that everyone got over pretty quickly. Either run adequate power for two stations or just put in a single.
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> That is supremely helpful, thanks togo!
My pleasure
> I'm a little surprised to hear that my guess about ignoring the pilot signal was correct. That seems like it could be dangerous, if I roll up to a station, I have to correctly guess how many amps I can get out of it. If I overestimate, best case is the breaker trips. Worst case is...
The sewage pump doesn't work anymore and Alice's Restaurant gets stinky and the electric motorcycle gets blamed? Hearsay... But we couldn't charge there any more after the first couple... And that was not an EV station with a pilot signal anyway
> Perhaps I'm just being alarmist. But if I were looking at buying a diginow (in the market for a zero now, we'll see if that ever comes to pass), I'd want to be confident that it was standards-compliant and would "just work."
That would be nice. Too much variation in implementation of the pilot signal maybe. Blame Blink! If diginow does the voltage drop detection, that's good. Tesla reportedly does that, and it makes sense. Stations are breakered in amps, not watts, so doing constant watts, i.e. increasing amps when voltage drops, is conterproductive.
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Har har har ;)
I was thinking more along the lines of equipment damage and/or electrical fire, but I left it open-ended because honestly I don't know what would happen as a worst-case scenario.
Perhaps the voltage sag technique is "good enough." From an amateur perspective though, I would be worried that it leaves something to be desired for safety. I have to imagine that the voltage will sag in some scenarios, but not others, so I would imagine we shouldn't rely on it.
From a purist point of view, if the J1772 standard specifies a pilot implementation, we shouldn't ignore it just because one vendor doesn't do it properly.
Anyway, we can go back and forth on how things "should be" until we're blue in the face but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. You guys answered all my original questions - thanks for all the information!
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I noticed some strange behavior today. Usually when I plug up my SR the fans on the Diginow start up to cool off the chargers. When o got home and plugged it up to my 110v, the fans didn’t come on. It barely charged at all. Luckily I was at 87%. Not sure how much I was going to use for my trip across town some 35 miles on the interstate. When I go to my destination. I used a 220v plug and turned on both Diginows. Still no fan spin. It seems to be charging well fine as I sit here but I’m curious if anyone else has had this behavior before?
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I noticed some strange behavior today. Usually when I plug up my SR the fans on the Diginow start up to cool off the chargers. When o got home and plugged it up to my 110v, the fans didn’t come on. It barely charged at all. Luckily I was at 87%. Not sure how much I was going to use for my trip across town some 35 miles on the interstate. When I go to my destination. I used a 220v plug and turned on both Diginows. Still no fan spin. It seems to be charging well fine as I sit here but I’m curious if anyone else has had this behavior before?
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If you're pulling more than a very low current without fans, I would power down the DigiNows immediately until the problem is resolved or condoned by the manufacturer.
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Yep very something wrong. In 30 min it drew so slow off 220v I only went up 4%. Brandon please help.
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That sounds like the onboard was charging alone in case you are using it. Might be a defective controller, happens sometimes.
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Was hoping to read some news on Diginow 2.5
But this problem is probably not 2.5 bellypan version?
Maybe make new topic?
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Any news on delivery date Diginow 2.5 with Bellypan?
Is it still this month?
Anyone got 1 allready? (including the new bellypan)
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No update as of yet. The last I heard was Brandons update via facebook with how he was doing and everyone that is waiting patiently will get a free tesla DIY kit. Hope he is doing well.
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Still waiting too - all we know is "September".
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I am with Scotchman on this one. A few months ago DigiNow contacted myself, as an Alta owner, and then all other Alta owners on our forum, testing waters on whether it made sense to them to make a charger for the Altas. Everyone was very curious and cautiously interested. The DigiNow website has almost no useful information, looks like an unfinished science project. Still, people persisted, asking questions, wanting to learn more. But there is NO INFORMATION out there describing DigiNow products, anywhere.
Will someone please post the ballpark price, the size and the weight of these 1, 2, 3, 3.3 kW units?
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You will have to read all pages of this topic and sure the answers are here.
Website Diginow is......
They are 2 man with a good solution for Zero, for sure now with the bellypan solution for S(R) en DS(R).
But don't expect global information.
If you want it: mail them and they will reply fast with all details you want and are very helpfull.
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I am with Scotchman on this one. A few months ago DigiNow contacted myself, as an Alta owner, and then all other Alta owners on our forum, testing waters on whether it made sense to them to make a charger for the Altas. Everyone was very curious and cautiously interested. The DigiNow website has almost no useful information, looks like an unfinished science project. Still, people persisted, asking questions, wanting to learn more. But there is NO INFORMATION out there describing DigiNow products, anywhere.
Will someone please post the ballpark price, the size and the weight of these 1, 2, 3, 3.3 kW units?
The prices are not on the website. However I can answer these questions.
The 3.3kW unit is the Elcon seen here: http://evcomponents.com/customized-chargers/elcon-tc-hk-j-3300w-charger.html So size and weight should be identical or nearly identical, plus cables, adapters, and the belly pan. I do not believe Diginow is using the new 6.6kW charger Elcon makes, I think they are still selling multiples of the 3.3kW.
Prices as I was quoted are below:
SuperCharger v2.5 belly pan install 3.3kW = $2085 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 belly pan install 6.6kW = $2425 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 belly pan install 9.9kW = $3435 + shipping
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Prices as I was quoted are below:
SuperCharger v2.5 belly pan install 3.3kW = $2085 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 belly pan install 6.6kW = $2425 + shipping
SuperCharger v2.5 belly pan install 9.9kW = $3435 + shipping
These have come down recently by about $300 per line item as of 3 months ago if i recall correctly. Contact morgan to get the official price list. I have been using these chargers exclusively now since owning my bike (about 7k miles) with no issues. I like them so much I bought another set used (have two 6.6's) and am waiting to upgrade to the 2.5 control unit when brandon gets well so I can use 3 units and eventually a fourth when I get a power tank.
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Thank you for the information, Scotchman.
Looks like the stock Alta unit is Elcon 3.3kW. It comes in a separate Pelican plastic case and costs $900, if you buy it with a bike. Perhaps this is why DigiNow was not interested in making chargers for us.
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So let me see if I have this right. I can buy an Elcon 3.3KW charger from EV Components for $500 or I can buy a 3.3KW charger from Diginow for $2,100. What am I missing here? This is a no brainer, right?
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So let me see if I have this right. I can buy an Elcon 3.3KW charger from EV Components for $500 or I can buy a 3.3KW charger from Diginow for $2,100. What am I missing here? This is a no brainer, right?
One has a good chance of making your $8000 battery pack fail catastrophically which, I agree, is a no brainer.
As an update, Brandon has returned to work half-days here with me at the shop. The wheels of production are once again turning except Brandon had to go lay down just now as he picked up an object that weighed more than 5 pounds and made sort of a guttural grunting sound that I've come to learn indicates high levels of pain.
Also I made some control boards and they work!
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Is it still possible delivery this month?
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So let me see if I have this right. I can buy an Elcon 3.3KW charger from EV Components for $500 or I can buy a 3.3KW charger from Diginow for $2,100. What am I missing here? This is a no brainer, right?
One has a good chance of making your $8000 battery pack fail catastrophically which, I agree, is a no brainer....
There's a large-ish fuse in the ZF module which will go a long ways to prevent an actual catastrophic failure (read: battery fire) in the event that the contactor fused when trying to open from a prolonged current in excess of 1C rating for 30 seconds. There's an additional medium-ish fuse each on the AUX charging and stock charger harness connections. Already the DigiNow Super Charger V1/V2/V2.5 connections tend to bypass some of those protections. You could fry an MBB or BMS board; I have not seen documented the how or why for those rumored stories but certainly no bikes on fire because of HK-J 3.3kW charging modules (Super Charger V2+).
I'm remembering a correspondence with Electric Conversions whence I asked a similar line of questioning following a quotation. The response was professional and courteous:
Shadow asks ElCon rep
Shadow asks "This is the same unit: http://evcomponents.com/elcon-tc-hk-j-6600w-charger.html at half the cost you quoted me? Did I miss some detail?"
ElCon rep replies
"You can buy the unit from China. They are made by our factory which provides some of them to companies in China for domestic consumption. Some of those companies offer them on their website to customers outside of China. Since they have little to no overhead they can offer them at cost. Our volume pricing is comparable to theirs. For example their price is $789 USD plus shipping from China. Our single unit price is $1500 plus shipping from Sacramento. 5 pcs $1276. 10 pcs $1050. 20 pcs $824. 50+ pcs $752. Plus one year repair or replacement warranty from Sacramento. Plus reprogramming and service from Sacramento. Plus free tech support by email for as long as you own the charger. Plus swap out with other chargers at reasonable cost if the charger you bought is not right for you. Without incurring shipping back and forth from China."
The maximum supported configuration per a discussion on why fast charging failed with a PowerTank and DigiNow configuration by someone at Zero Motorcycles was said to me to be four QuiQ (~900W ea) plus the stock onboard (~1300W for the S/DS?) for my 2016 model year bike with ZF13.0 battery. If you exceed that combined charging capability then it's not been tested by Zero Motorcycles officially. Notably I have no recent information on what impact the 6.6kW 2018 ChargeTank has on newer models and their tested parameters (although notably it is not being sold as compatible with older models).
It appears to be a mixed bag whether when you ask pointed technical questions for DigiNow you will receive a professional and courteous response. Mostly I struggle to overlook the hand-waiving and back-and-forth that transpires about people buying into the DigiNow charging products. The only component which is necessary from the DigiNow system is software on a control box which messages the HK-J 3.3kW module(s) and interacts with the bike to aid going beyond the OEM supported 4xQuiQ+1xOnboard charging configuration.
However you do it, adding more charging capability to your electric motorcycle is probably a good and reasonable thing to do.
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I don't have the 2.5 on my bike yet (2016 DSR), I do have the 6.6 kw diginow and have for over a year now. I can echo the closing line on the last post.
Adding fast charging, even just level 2 completely changes the way you can utilize this bike. Ride to work and get a call that you need to head out to your dad's 80 miles away by highway. No drama, just pop on a j plug for 10 mins or so and you can fly the whole way there.
Added bonus, once there you don't need an expensive level 2 charger installed out there. Just get the standard range plug (in the us) and a 50 amp feeding circuit. Instead of staying 13 hrs with your family you can run away in less than 2 hours.
It also means riding with some ice bike groups is possible, you just have to be friendly enough with them that they don't mind stopping at places you can top up. My problem tends to be keeping up while on the stock 60/40 tires.
With a 13 hour charge time it's simply way more time plugged in looking at it than the grip/grin I have from it at all other times.
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Can SCv2 be mounted in another spot on the bike? Although belly pan is a convenient location, doesn't this heat up the battery during charging, same as the stock charger? Many people have said the stock charger is not installed in a good location, for this reason.
Could SCv2 be mounted on the rear-top rack, such that it doesn't heat up the battery, and the charger has much better air cooling too? For me (and maybe others), I only use my Zero for commuting. If/when I have a need for fast charging on the occasional road trip, I may want to ability to install it for the trip, and remove them when I get back home. My need for fast charging would be very rare.
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Can SCv2 be mounted in another spot on the bike? Although belly pan is a convenient location, doesn't this heat up the battery during charging, same as the stock charger? Many people have said the stock charger is not installed in a good location, for this reason.
Could SCv2 be mounted on the rear-top rack, such that it doesn't heat up the battery, and the charger has much better air cooling too? For me (and maybe others), I only use my Zero for commuting. If/when I have a need for fast charging on the occasional road trip, I may want to ability to install it for the trip, and remove them when I get back home. My need for fast charging would be very rare.
Yes. I have 2 diginow modules mounted in rear top case. The case can then be removed when not needed. But, the new pan mount is larger and in reported to not significantly increase battery temp. It has air gaps and fans, something the onboard does not have, plus charging is quicker and complete before too much heat is created.
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Can SCv2 be mounted in another spot on the bike? Although belly pan is a convenient location, doesn't this heat up the battery during charging, same as the stock charger? Many people have said the stock charger is not installed in a good location, for this reason.
Could SCv2 be mounted on the rear-top rack, such that it doesn't heat up the battery, and the charger has much better air cooling too? For me (and maybe others), I only use my Zero for commuting. If/when I have a need for fast charging on the occasional road trip, I may want to ability to install it for the trip, and remove them when I get back home. My need for fast charging would be very rare.
The Diginow has an airgap that the stock charger does not have, and it runs for less time... so I think the overall heating to the battery is less than stock, not more.
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Also, very importantly, the hot side of the charger is facing AWAY from the battery. The pan itself acts as the heat sink coupled with cooling fans. The battery will not be receiving residual heat from the physical warmth of the chargers. The battery does naturally heat from the charging process, and according to our testing it's very minimal.
But yeah as others said our chargers only get up to full temperature after ~45 minutes and with fast charging that's generally the maximum amount of time people need to charge anyway. Also there are cooling fans. Maybe you've seen the Hurricane Testing videos we put up recently? New fans are durable as hell!
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When charging from 20-80%, my battery temp goes up 4-6 deg C. These readings come from summer time charging in South Carolina so if the set up was prone to cooking the battery, I would have experienced it. The biggest factor I've seen is how hard I was riding right before charging up. Just my personal experience FWIW.
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Yup, we designed it so the chargers should increase the battery life by a few years Charging like Rugby does between 20% and 80% will Really increase your battery life even more.
Between us and the community, there are now apps which will work on iOS and Android to allow you to control your chargers as well.
On most batteries I would expect to see 4-6 degrees c under most circumstances, this would be due to internal resistance of the battery. If one is touring during the hottest part of the summer I reccopmnd they just keep their Zero at 65mph (104kmh) or lower. Riding much faster than that on the hwy will generate heat in the battery especially below 101v so much so that I would always try to keep my race bikes above 101v to prevent battery overheating AT HIGH SPEEDS.
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Thanks for chiming in, EC. Hope you are recovering well.
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Any picture of new bellypan with 2 or 3 units in it?
Would like to see position of cooling fan(s).
Morgan was testing a fan in water 8)
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A cup of water I added a bunch of salt and dirt to 4 hours later and it didn't care. Fan is a beast.
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It supposed to be possible to control/monitor Diginow 2.5 with an app.
But in playstore no Diginow app? :-\
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Here’s a photo of my self-arranged set of units before I performed final cable routing to sandwich it against the bike.
I was told that the fans were not part of the design, but I found that the fans fit fine and seem to help move air if positioned carefully.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180924/be7ab6fa27c445c23e3e70f2f5200044.jpg)
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I agree that with a proper install, the heat transmitted to the battery is minimal and probably reduced compared to onboard/stock charging.
My pan transmits and radiates heat well enough that the frame tubes only warm up a bit and the battery case hasn’t been warm at all from what I can tell.
I do run with fans, which are thankfully muffled now. I make the airflow run a kind of diagonal pattern, using gaps between the chargers to direct flow left in the forward gap and right in the aft gap. And I push air to the rear along the side channels, since the fans should be oriented the same way any air might windmill them while riding.
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Just to update everyone. If you remember, my Diginows quit charging. I dropped the pan today and tested them out individually. Neither one would charge my SR. It would click on and the green plug light would flash for a minute then stop but the display would still be on. I went ahead and installed the factory charger back on just to charge up my bike. Bad news. It has the same behavior. It clicks on and the green plug would flash for a minute then stop. According to the app, the bike is not getting any current from any of the chargers. I double checked all the connections to make sure none were loose. I'm at a loss at what to do now. Any ideas? Prior to all this happening, it charged find one morning and I went out to do some errands. I can home and plugged it up and that was the first time it stopped charging.
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Just to update everyone. If you remember, my Diginows quit charging. I dropped the pan today and tested them out individually. Neither one would charge my SR. It would click on and the green plug light would flash for a minute then stop but the display would still be on. I went ahead and installed the factory charger back on just to charge up my bike. Bad news. It has the same behavior. It clicks on and the green plug would flash for a minute then stop. According to the app, the bike is not getting any current from any of the chargers. I double checked all the connections to make sure none were loose. I'm at a loss at what to do now. Any ideas? Prior to all this happening, it charged find one morning and I went out to do some errands. I can home and plugged it up and that was the first time it stopped charging.
Did you check all of the connectors that you touched to be sure that no pins were bent when you pushed the connectors back together? Those individual pins are pretty delicate.
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Just to update everyone. If you remember, my Diginows quit charging. I dropped the pan today and tested them out individually. Neither one would charge my SR. It would click on and the green plug light would flash for a minute then stop but the display would still be on. I went ahead and installed the factory charger back on just to charge up my bike. Bad news. It has the same behavior. It clicks on and the green plug would flash for a minute then stop. According to the app, the bike is not getting any current from any of the chargers. I double checked all the connections to make sure none were loose. I'm at a loss at what to do now. Any ideas? Prior to all this happening, it charged find one morning and I went out to do some errands. I can home and plugged it up and that was the first time it stopped charging.
Do you have a Powertank? That synchronization to the main power pack can break and add some weirdness to the charging scheme. Assuming not, troubleshooting goes like so...
If your bike still operates (sevcon engage and throttle -> bike moves) then you're in good condition for voltage because the Sevcon has a defined operating range. For example if your battery was charged too high there's a possible outcome where of course the chargers would not operate but also the bike would not move anymore due to Sevcon refusing to operate. Similar outcome for battery voltage being too low.
If your pack voltage is within acceptable tolerance (10% ?) of the maximum it's possible for chargers to remain off and not engage anymore. The datasheet for Farasis cells lists 4.15Vdc maximum and packs are 28s so 4.15Vdc * 28 = 116.2Vdc maximum. Anyone doing charging equipment would design to this value. There is a resting voltage less than 116.2Vdc where charging logic (OEM, Diginow, otherwise) would not turn on (115Vdc?). I've observed this on my own bike for various equipment Diginow or otherwise.
The Diginow configuration with HK-J3300 charging modules requires a control module (the version 2.5 namesake of this topic) to send CANbus messages at regular intervals. If the CAN lines are shorted, or the internal fuse has blown, those messages will not reach the modules and the HK-J3300's will time out. My Diginow pan was installed improperly by Brandon and sheared the CAN lines. I had to disconnect some of the chargers CAN connections to get charging to work again, which got dirty from the NO-OX goop that was in them on my 400mi+ return trip for service which allegedly induced Brandon into some kind of super-sayan snowflake rage trying to clean them. If you suspect something like this, troubleshooting ends here if you want to keep Diginow happy, and best wishes for you to get support!
The stock charger needs both connection to the charging harness and to see an appropriate voltage on the DC output side before it will begin charging. There's a work-around where you can short two pins on the stock charger and it will act like a dumb charger. According to someone who got this to work it should be pins 12 and 13. Burton's wiring diagram I think shows this too. Mind the voltage as this can reportedly overcharge beyond 116.2Vdc in this configuration. Connectors I think are a JAE MX23A series (unconfirmed yet) but what seems to work without harm is to carefully short those pins.
Perhaps there is damage or connection error with the charging harness? You could try AUX charging port enable (stock items that do this are the QuiQ charger).
Anyway if you can put current into the connector and keep the bike online, no charging enable is needed to put energy into your battery pack.
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I tried both the Diginow and the onboard charger. Both connect differently to charge the bike and neither work. The battery is currently at 38% charge. The green plug icon comes on for about 30 sec then turns off. The bike will run as a matter of fact it ran from 100% down to 38% at 87% is when I tried to top it off before my longer ride and noticed it wouldn’t charge anymore.
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I tried both the Diginow and the onboard charger. Both connect differently to charge the bike and neither work. The battery is currently at 38% charge. The green plug icon comes on for about 30 sec then turns off. The bike will run as a matter of fact it ran from 100% down to 38% at 87% is when I tried to top it off before my longer ride and noticed it wouldn’t charge anymore.
I have no idea if this will work for you, but did you try a BMS reset?
See "BMS reset" in the Unofficial Service Manual. (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Are tracking numbers and emails being sent out when the chargers ship? Or are the boxes just showing up at your house. Just curious on those of you that have received your chargers.
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I did receive a tracking number when my chargers were sent off
I thought about the BMS reset too just didn’t do it until today. Unfortunately it did nothing to help my cause. I was thinking of charging circuit fuse. I don’t know if I can test it because it looks like it is in some sort of aluminum case looking at the picture. I also verified again that my bike does still run fine just not charging at all. The contactor is opening and closing as it’s suppose to just not charging via the onboard or the Anderson port and the Diginow.
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I thought about the BMS reset too just didn’t do it until today. Unfortunately it did nothing to help my cause. I was thinking of charging circuit fuse. I don’t know if I can test it because it looks like it is in some sort of aluminum case looking at the picture. I also verified again that my bike does still run fine just not charging at all. The contactor is opening and closing as it’s suppose to just not charging via the onboard or the Anderson port and the Diginow.
Did you try pressing BOTH buttons at the SAME time?
Last year, my DS 6.5 would not charge and what fixed it was pressing both buttons at the same time.
One at a time did nothing at all.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I thought about the BMS reset too just didn’t do it until today. Unfortunately it did nothing to help my cause. I was thinking of charging circuit fuse. I don’t know if I can test it because it looks like it is in some sort of aluminum case looking at the picture. I also verified again that my bike does still run fine just not charging at all. The contactor is opening and closing as it’s suppose to just not charging via the onboard or the Anderson port and the Diginow.
Did you try pressing BOTH buttons at the SAME time?
Last year, my DS 6.5 would not charge and what fixed it was pressing both buttons at the same time.
One at a time did nothing at all.
-Don- Reno, NV
Just tried it. Nothing. Thanks for the suggestion though.
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> Do you have a Powertank? That synchronization to the main power pack can break ...
Yes, please answer that. It makes a difference. When the powertank and the monolith are too far apart you can have bad behavior. You might get success by disconnecting one, charging till full, then disconnecting the other and connecting the first till full, and only then connecting them both, when you know they are both at the same level.
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For future reference, it’s helpful when trouble reports are just new threads so that we aren’t confused. This thread is about 2.5 and it’s not clear that the reporter even has that version.
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I’m sorry but I do have the 2.5 version and I do not have. Powertank. I posted here because I thought it had to do with why it was no luck Negri charged my bike but now it seems to be more than that.
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You know what might be really slick?
The new belly pan + two chargers + one of these: http://www.quick220.com/220_catalog/voltage-converters.html
Then, provide a means of connecting and intelligently sensing which combination to use:
1. 120v service via one cord, maxing out at 1200w
2. 220v service via two cords, maxing out at 3.3kw
3. 220v service via J1772, maxing out at 6.6(7.2?)kw
I was thinking two C14s, perhaps with the second C14 fitted with a push-down microswitch at its rear wall that would trigger a contactor to switch the line from the first C14 from the first charger to the 220v charger box.
Any ideas?
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2. 220v service via two cords, maxing out at 3.3kw
Would a C20 socket fit somewhere so you could get 3.3kW with one cord?
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I’m sorry but I do have the 2.5 version and I do not have. Powertank. I posted here because I thought it had to do with why it was no luck Negri charged my bike but now it seems to be more than that.
Charging fuse(s) are logically as fast blow fuses (values vary by model and year, say 50A? 100A?) inline with the bike wiring harness well protected in heatshrink and would be difficult to access directly. Replaceable with mail order parts however just a bit of a pig to service.
What you should measure to see if the AUX fuse is intact is bike main voltage on the aux connector anytime the ZForce pack contactor is engaged (bike on, wait for click). This can be done with any voltmeter and some care with your hands to avoid a high voltage shock.
If the charge fuse popped then it's probably easier and cheaper to build your own secondary fused charging harness for connection to the motor controller terminals. Otherwise if charge enable signal was damaged to/at MBB then you can still get energy into the battery, the bike will have to stay on and not timeout while charging, which is an issue that some owners have encountered - annoying and difficult to fully remedy but can still make the bike usable again.
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Although what I propose is very much North America-centric, it would allow for L2 charging with access to only standard North America 110v outlets. You misunderstand my motive, having a single C20 line would require connecting to a 220v single outlet backed by a 220v single breaker, a rarity or only role-specific outlet in most US households. With the unit I reference in my previous comment, it's possible to find two standard purpose outlets and merge them into a single 220v power source to do L2 charging.
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...With the unit I reference in my previous comment, it's possible to find two standard purpose outlets and merge them into a single 220v power source to do L2 charging.
Have seen and used one such unit at Zero HQ. We're still talking 3kW not much more (15A@240Vac)
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Indeed, 3x speed charging is still worth something, especially if the day-to-day use is made easy for the end user.
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Considering all the charging locations i have accessible to me per today is Type2 based, i would really like to see the DigiNow system support the following alternatives:
- Reading the pilotsignal and adjust amperage accordingly
- Support up to 230VAC/32A 1 Phase
- Support up to 400VAC/32A 3 Phase
All based on one Type2 connector.
If this is possible, i am very much interested in buying this setup.
I would be flexible on the 400VAC/32A if that one is a bit harder to do, but it would make it possible to do longer trips for me as it would support using public semi-fast chargers.
Where i am located there's a very good infrastructure of these types of chargers..
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Although what I propose is very much North America-centric, it would allow for L2 charging with access to only standard North America 110v outlets. You misunderstand my motive, having a single C20 line would require connecting to a 220v single outlet backed by a 220v single breaker, a rarity or only role-specific outlet in most US households. With the unit I reference in my previous comment, it's possible to find two standard purpose outlets and merge them into a single 220v power source to do L2 charging.
You'd also need to make sure the two 110v outlets were on different circuits. Worth doing for repetitive future chargers, I guess, but complicated for casual charging.
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Correct, but the device permits doing this through simple trial and error without risk of damage.
That's the point of it.
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Sadly Zero dealers in the Netherlands still getting negative advise on Diginow:
my dealer was getting told because Diginow is not communicating with BMS.....
So Zero Netherlands at least isn't updated at v2.5 it seems 😥
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Sadly Zero dealers in the Netherlands still getting negative advise on Diginow:
my dealer was getting told because Diginow is not communicating with BMS.....
So Zero Netherlands at least isn't updated at v2.5 it seems 😥
Meanwhile in Israel I was told that the dealer is putting in an order for DigiNow chargers, and we're usually way behind the rest of the world on adoption of new technology (even if we developed some of it ;D)
So I think you guys should be getting them soon.
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Too bad, extra delay at customs USA for the batch of Diginows V2.5 going to UK dealer or so.
Patience patience patience.
For Europe no information on a discount, in America it was announced I believe? (because of the long waiting first buyers).
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Sadly Zero dealers in the Netherlands still getting negative advise on Diginow:
my dealer was getting told because Diginow is not communicating with BMS.....
So Zero Netherlands at least isn't updated at v2.5 it seems 😥
Meanwhile in Israel I was told that the dealer is putting in an order for DigiNow chargers, and we're usually way behind the rest of the world on adoption of new technology (even if we developed some of it ;D)
So I think you guys should be getting them soon.
Hi,
I'm also in Israel, but unlikely to buy one until the range greatly improves and there are public fast chargers (basically, I can do a full 500-600km day trip with 1-2 charge sessions in the middle).
Diginow here in Israel sounds really surprising and interesting, because we currently have no public chargers...
Where does Mark (the local importer & dealer) expect owners to use the Diginows here, except at home? At what kW levels? Has he mentioned pricing?
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Sadly Zero dealers in the Netherlands still getting negative advise on Diginow:
my dealer was getting told because Diginow is not communicating with BMS.....
So Zero Netherlands at least isn't updated at v2.5 it seems 😥
Meanwhile in Israel I was told that the dealer is putting in an order for DigiNow chargers, and we're usually way behind the rest of the world on adoption of new technology (even if we developed some of it ;D)
So I think you guys should be getting them soon.
Hi,
I'm also in Israel, but unlikely to buy one until the range greatly improves and there are public fast chargers (basically, I can do a full 500-600km day trip with 1-2 charge sessions in the middle).
Diginow here in Israel sounds really surprising and interesting, because we currently have no public chargers...
Where does Mark (the local importer & dealer) expect owners to use the Diginows here, except at home? At what kW levels? Has he mentioned pricing?
Actually, there are quite a few...
Take a look at the PlugShare app.
He hasn't said anything about prices, though.
Hint: I spoke to Brandon from DigiNow, and he said we can use the common tri-phase "תלת פ××–×™" with an adaptor :)
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You know what might be really slick?
The new belly pan + two chargers + one of these: http://www.quick220.com/220_catalog/voltage-converters.html
Then, provide a means of connecting and intelligently sensing which combination to use:
1. 120v service via one cord, maxing out at 1200w
2. 220v service via two cords, maxing out at 3.3kw
3. 220v service via J1772, maxing out at 6.6(7.2?)kw
I was thinking two C14s, perhaps with the second C14 fitted with a push-down microswitch at its rear wall that would trigger a contactor to switch the line from the first C14 from the first charger to the 220v charger box.
Any ideas?
Interesting device. The trick would be to find two 110vac that you know to be on different breakers.
I've been running C19/C20 since they handle more amps than C13/C14 for my inlets. I have a couple of J-plug to 3-head, and Tesla to 3-head, NEMA 14-50 to 3-head, which let me run one or two or three bricks off each power source available pretty flexibly.
I'm switching to a smaller solution, I'll report here it's tested.
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...I've been running C19/C20 since they handle more amps than C13/C14 for my inlets...
Same amps, different voltage convention 125/250 vs 250? I do not think the connectors care it would depend on the plastics and expected heat rise until they melt and fall apart what amps?
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...I've been running C19/C20 since they handle more amps than C13/C14 for my inlets...
Same amps, different voltage convention 125/250 vs 250? I do not think the connectors care it would depend on the plastics and expected heat rise until they melt and fall apart what amps?
According to this -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320 , only put 10 amps through a C13/C14 and 16 amps through a C19/C20.
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...I've been running C19/C20 since they handle more amps than C13/C14 for my inlets...
Same amps, different voltage convention 125/250 vs 250? I do not think the connectors care it would depend on the plastics and expected heat rise until they melt and fall apart what amps?
According to this -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320 , only put 10 amps through a C13/C14 and 16 amps through a C19/C20.
Even if you find a perfect, large wire C19/20 connector cable you cant run 15a through them non-stop... after a couple hours they start to get warm. keep going for a few hours and you will get it warm enough for the cable connector to become putty-like inside... get real unlucky and it will melt into your bikes connector.
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Or you can do like I did a couple of years ago. I used an old 16-gauge extension cord connected to my Zero's charging cord and the plug connection to the two cords got so hot that they melted together and had to be cut apart. :o Doing that is one solution to not melting the bike's female connector. ::)
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Just a quick update :
EU :
Our inital test shipment to the UK sounds like it will finally make it through to the UK customs today. We have a few days more to discover what went wrong with the customs forms that caused the delay, and then we will send out a second test shipment. If that goes through customs smoothly we will ship all the remaining units over. This means, provided we are able to properly fix the customs forms on this next shipment, all the chargers should be in the UK by the end of this month. We had a scare on this test shipment because they told Alec they wanted 500 pounds to get it out of customs which clearly is not acceptable. However it seems that is cleared up now. A 3 day shipment turned into a 3 week shipment!
US / NZ :
BLE boards are in for control boards which are fully assembled except for the BLE module and the Calex connector housing. All the wiring is complete and pins connected. The pins need to be put into the housing then have the housing covered in protective heatshrink. The BLE modules need to be programmed and have the grove connector snipped to length and soldered in place before be asttached to the board for testing.
Once testing is complete we will insert the boards into their housing and pot them with our UL flame retardant elastomeric potting compound. That will take a day to do and cure. Then we will retest the following day and start packing them up.
First ones to go out are chuck burgess and the new zealand gang I believe. I reserve the right to be wrong on that though as Morgan is in charge of the order.
OMG!!! I GOTTA GO TERRY IS HERE!!!!
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This is the part where I dance around for twenty minutes, without regard to the people at my office who are staring and carefully evacuating :D :o 8)
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Most of them may be staring but you can bet one will be calling Facilities and asking for the tranquiliser darts.
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Update for US/NZ :
27 BLE boards were soldered up today. They will get programmed tomorrow and plugged into control boards. Hopefully we will be able to get the calex connectors inserted and secured as well tomorrow. If we do, this means 21 full v2.5 control boards will be prepped and ready for testing, and then potting after that.
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Great to hear some brakethrough on customs UK.
We are very anxious here in the EU for our first Diginow 2.5 bellypan!
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EU update :
Test Package still in customs. Awaiting number to phone local shippers in the UK. Once again will be shipping another set of chargers after we are able to contact the UK shipper (FedEX on behalf of USPS) to see what the holdup is.
US/NZ update :
Today we were able to get all the BLE boards programmed and the calex pins in place for the bike side communications. Tonight I will flash all the boards with the v2.5 code. I may also be able to put the heat shrink on the connectors tonight. I slept here (in the shop) last night, but Teruko may want me to come home tonight. I'm definately too sore to ride a bike safely, but she can come pick me up in the car. If I go home, heat shrink will likely not happen tonight and be pushed back to tomorrow.
Tomorrow morning should be heatshrinking the calex connectors, if not done tonight, and testing the boards before potting for initial QC. Tomorrow evening potting should happen which would allow curing to happen tomorrow night / day after tomorrow morning.
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Just get enough rest, 1 day more is not an issue is it? 8)
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WOOHOO! Thanks for all the updates, Brandon!! ;D
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EU update :
Looks like what was holding the test shipment up was related to some VAT from customs. Alec from English Electric Motor Co. and Morgan are working on figuring out what the issue was and how to resolve it. Unfortunately, the package was in customs just long enough that it is now being processed for return shipment to the US. We will inspect the package upon its return and send out a new test package to see if it makes it through without any issue.
Before sending the next test shipment we need to identify if VAT needs to be paid upon reciept by Alec, or by the customer at the time of purchase. I'm not familiar with UK business law that much, so I don't know the answer to that yet. In the US, we need to provide our reseller ID / certificate and we pass VAT on in the final product. Sometimes we still have to pay a use fee though.
Anyway, that is the morning update for EU.
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EU update :
It seems Alec and Morgan made some solid progress with the customs and VAT process to hopefully smooth out the next shipment. We are waiting on some more info before sending out the next test shipment.
US / NZ update :
Calex connectors are now inserted and covered. Control boards have all been flashed and will be tested tonight. This means potting will happen tomorrow night for all units that pass testing.
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EU update :
Its still cloudy as to what happened to the test package and why itsa being sent, but we are settling on the next way to fill out the paper work here as well as working with Alec on the other side of the pond to make sure things go smoothly over there. It will still be a few days before the next test is sent.
US / NZ update :
1) Calex Connectors all protected
2) All boards tested out of potting, two boards appear to have been skipped in the flashing process but were re-flashed during testing and passed. Also one board had a BLE module that looked like it skipped flashing as well, that will be fixed and added to the next batch of boards to pot.
3) All 2015+ boards potted and potting mostly cured last night. The work area of the shop is being kept hot to insure a full reaction for the compounds.
Next step will be to test the potted boards after fully cured.
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It is such a satisfying thing to pass a board through QC because there are quite a few steps that go into making each one. Having it recognize the bike, give feedback, and accept provisioning is borderline cathartic. It also gave me a chance to become intimately familiar with the iOS HM10 Serial Bluetooth Pro app and make a series of provisioning buttons for different situations like EV stations, crappy EV stations, awesome EV stations, wall charging, and world's saddest wall at 800 watts. I will likely be updating the wiki with step by step pictures so y'all can do it at home, too!
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So excited to get these changers...the sun has finally arrived in the land of the long white cloud...thanks for the updates Brandon and Morgan....
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.......app and make a series of provisioning buttons for different situations like EV stations, crappy EV stations, awesome EV stations, wall charging, and world's saddest wall at 800 watts. I will likely be updating the wiki with step by step pictures so y'all can do it at home, too!
Please do.
Other examples I see 116,4V upper setting.
I need top range also, but would it make a difference in durability of battery to set it:
116,2V or
116,0V or
115,8V for example?
8)
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Those aren't large enough differences to actually do much of anything. To set it to cap around 80% would be something like 1100 (110.0 volts) as the first number. So 1100,104,3,9900,0,50 would be a setting for someone using a 13kWh monolith at 9.9kW with 3 chargers wanting to stop around 80%.
What I would also like, and haven't bothered to see if anyone has actually made it, is a chart with voltage as it approximately relates to SoC, as it's non linear.
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https://zeromanual.com/wiki/SoC_per_Voltage
Pack at rest (V) SoC (%)
95 0
102 50
106 60
108 70
110 80
116.4 100
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US/NZ Weekend update :
* Saturday :
Kept shop warm, wood burning stove with fell wood, to ensure full curing of potting compound. This was successful by the end of the day.
Tested water Charger again with 2 of the still tacky potted boards for a partial test. Water charger, over a month now running creat, but growing calcium deposits from the filthy water we have it running in.
Morgan made a bunch of Type 2 inlet switches which are compatible with all level 2 stations including Teslas.
Morgan found a deal on pork shoulder for 99 cents a pork shoulder somehow... and bought 30 lbs. of bone in pork for like $7
* Sunday Veterans day (one of the few holidays I celebrate) :
My appologies, I took the day off and slept in a special bean bag, in the shop, to help relax my Spine. Made with memory foam and other small cut up foams.
Vegans, don't read below this line please.
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Morgan brought all 30 pounds of pork over to the factory in a duffel bag on a Zero... quite hillarious. Zak and I (well mostly I watched Zak) skin and prep the shoulders. I got to taste the seasoning and help a little with minor tasks. Around 1 or 2 AM Zak brought in one of the shoulders and woke me up with a giant warm bowl of pulled pork. nom nom nom zzzzzzz. I also had my first alcoholic beverage (just one) since before my accident. Progress!
Todays goals :
US/NZ :
Test potted boards.
Solder up and pot boards for legacy batteries from 2014. Only making a few of these so not nearly as much work.
Pin J1772 inlets.
Go home tonight.
EU :
Prep for shipping a second test unit this week. Lots of paperwork to fill out. Also figure out where the heck the original test charger is. Alec from English Electric Motor co. has been chatting with FedEx over there and sending us the transcripts so we can follow along on our end.
BTW, you guys can learn more about Alec here :
Article on his custom bike building : https://www.fortheride.com/stories/old-empire-the-backstory/
His Electric Website : http://englishelectricmotorco.com/
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Closer to 60lbs of pork actually. It was listed at $0.99/lb but they only charged me $0.99 per shoulder which I didn't realize until I got home.
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US/NZ update :
Of the 18 boards we tested 2 failed after potting :( 16 passed.
We got 8 J1772 inlets assembled today.
We got a few more mennekes ready for you guys down below too ;)
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A board failing QC at the final step is heartbreak.
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EU update :
Test package returned today and was inspected. Everything made it there and back in one piece which is good. Hopefully on it's 3rd trip it will stay there. We are going to send this back in a new box with a new HS code and modified paperwork. If it makes it all the way through we will then ship all the rest over.
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US/NZ Weekend update :
...
Todays goals :
US/NZ :
Test potted boards.
Solder up and pot boards for legacy batteries from 2014. Only making a few of these so not nearly as much work.
...
Not TOO few, I hope!? =D
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What I would also like, and haven't bothered to see if anyone has actually made it, is a chart with voltage as it approximately relates to SoC, as it's non linear.
Based on prior guru posts on other threads, Good luck with that.
One respected guru emphasized battery voltage over SOC, at least in the 30-80% SOC range, but his (hers?) claims have not matched my Zero's SOC vs battery voltage, at least if one trusts the Zero app.
I wish it wasn't so much dark arts.
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What I would also like, and haven't bothered to see if anyone has actually made it, is a chart with voltage as it approximately relates to SoC, as it's non linear.
Based on prior guru posts on other threads, Good luck with that.
One respected guru emphasized battery voltage over SOC, at least in the 30-80% SOC range, but his (hers?) claims have not matched my Zero's SOC vs battery voltage, at least if one trusts the Zero app.
I wish it wasn't so much dark arts.
I trust the Zero instrument battery percentage display because the bike's performance and range seem to follow the dash display's information very closely. In other words, when it says "00" it pretty much means you are just about of juice. One thing that I do notice though is that the actual range remaining falls faster as the battery becomes depleted, which is not always reflected by the dash's range estimator. However, this is understandable since the battery pack voltage has dropped. Just something to keep in mind as you travel. Besides, the system is still a lot more accurate than any other ICE gasoline motorcycle's fuel gauge or range-to-empty, display that I have seen.
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Update
Today I am in Mexico with baja 1000 ev. Morgan is at the shop working on the goals we have set. I will be ba k after the weekend.
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EU update
Test package cleared customs! We will be shipping out the remaining packages for English Electric Motorcycle Co. today.
US/NZ update
Just back from Baja 1000 yesterday. Slept through the night from when I got back. Morgan was debriefing me on the progress yesterday, but I think I fell asleep with my eyes open and he basically pushed me over into the shop beanbag.
Baja update
We won. We are the first electric vehicle to complete the baja 1000! Woot! I was not piloting the vehicle because my injuries are still a bit too severe, but I was able to run the charging and battery team. The Fenix Motors team https://www.fenix-motors.com/ (https://www.fenix-motors.com/) was easy to teach and were a blast to work with. I look forward to future collaberations with them.
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That's a great result!
Reference course map: http://score-international.com/raceinfo/course-map-2018-baja-1000/
I'm considering a southbound trip on my Zero once my trip/streamlined build is finalized, and Baja would be pretty interesting this time of year.
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Brandon - Awesome!
Brian - Doooo it! That would be an amazing trip. Do either of you guys know what the charging infrastructure is like south of the border? It looks like there are a few Tesla destination chargers in Mexico.. just not many down Baja.
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Morning update
EU :
Test package made it to the delivery post office. Remaining packages should be out of the US by tomorrow. We are really hoping for this because of the shipping rush that will come next week from black friday.
US :
21 individual chargers are fully prepped for mounting into the pans. I will probably work tomorrow, Thanksgiving, until meal time. I did a full day yesterday but had to have Teruko come bring me home in crippling pain. It was probably the worst since I was able to take off the back braces. I think the Baja made me feel like I was back to normal, but in reality, the team down there was just really good at helping me out. Then when I got back here and was rested up I thought I could just do everything. Sadly... I am still far from fully recovered reguardless how strong I attempt to be. Morgan is the resident Family Chef here at the Vetter ranch as well, so tomorrow he will be on Turkey duty. The Vetter tradition is to eat approximately the weight of your own head on this holiday. This means that after feasting has subsided, sleeping will insue.
NZ :
Morgan has packed a box containing the "Back Breaker Pan" and a new pan for Jef Iken. The back breaker pan is the pan I was wearing when I broke my spine this latest time. It is a rather historic item.
@Brian yes it is most interesting! Especially out in Valle de Guadalupe wine country.
@Sam we did a half baja trip last year, this year we did the baja 1000 and next year provided I am not too broken still, the owner of the baja 1000 offered to make a race class for me. That would be the first ever electric motorcycle to finish the Baja then too! I think maybe the first to even compete. That would be a pretty sick thing to do, back to back historical firsts. Also get this, he (owner of baja 1000 / score organization) said he would even ride it for the first pit 30-50 miles from the start! While I would really like to do an Ironman run (solo rider for the whole race), I think I will need other riders too.
Charging is doable, but really touring the baja beyond the half way point is only for the most experienced of Electric Cowboys. Eric Bar and I made a plan and charging route two years ago. Last year we followed it for the top half of the route, but I quickly realised that the ride was a bit too much for some of the group so we opted to explore the middle of Baja from a home base in Rosarito. We stayed at the hotel where they filmed The Walking Dead Mexico season. Was pretty cool!
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EU Update :
Delivery attempt for the package was made. Alec is going to see if the package has arrived tomorrow.
US Update :
Tomorrow will be mounting more chargers and prepping shipment for Chuck Burgess and an upgrade for Aaron Pinero. Will not ship until monday likely. I expect I will need to make a few connectors/splitters still. Could be wrong.
Bahamas update :
Vargo6's charger recieved and modified. Will be mounted, checked and hopefully packed tomorrow, but that may be a bit too much to squeeze in.
NZ update :
I will be driving the Pan to Jef's friend tonight as requested. It will be a rough night for me. With the 5-6 hour round trip including charging it looks like today will shape up to be a 12 hour or more day.
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EU Update :
Boxes are on their way, I will get with Morgan and Alec to see where things are if they have a moment today. I know Morgan is furiously making enough food to feed an army today though.
NZ Update :
Jef's units were dropped off at the hotel for his friend to pick up and take to NZ last night. Got home at 4:30 am! It was a LOOOOONG NIGHT! Thank goodness I was able to take the leaf and didnt have to pay gas. It had about 100 mile range in the cold the way I was driving it. Usuially it gets around 150 miles.
Bahamas :
Ideally will be atleast mounted today if not also packed.
US Update :
Will let you guys know how many get mounted today.
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Hey guys,
I appologise, with everyone else taking the Holiday off it is too painful for me to accomplish much :( I just can't move the heavy stuff.
If I continue on like this today it would result in slowing down overall because I would hurt myself too bad.
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Brandon, you're a legend! But you're no good to us dead, so take a nap ;D
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EU update :
Some packages have cleared customs with duty and VAT payed, but have not yet been delivered. Its a bit of a hassle because they appear to be just sitting at the shippers for the past 4 days.
US Update :
Pans being filled with chargers Chuck and 2 others will go out this week.
NZ update :
Jef recieved his pan and parts and is now deciding how he wants to use the "back breaker pan". Sam's parts will be shipped to a US destination this week or next. Tim's units will be shipping out next week or the week after.
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General update :
Had to order a few raw materials to finish up the US/NZ pans being built now. Should not effect shipment time much if at all as we can work on other parts while the materials are shipped.
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EU update :
We have a lot of packages that just made it through customs in the UK now leaving COVENTRY PARCELFORCE, UNITED KINGDOM
Also, it looks like they are going to attempt delivery on some of the other ones today or tomorrow. Good sign, shame it is so slow, but glad it is happening and the tracking is being updated.
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Parcelforce are very bad at updating the tracking I am afraid. Glad to hear that they are cleared and on their way though.
Alec has me booked in for early December for the (slightly belated) 600-mile check and fitting my pan and charger.
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Really hope for the best....
Finally I can get an angry wife of my back after spending so much money in june 🤤.
Want to have it in my hands for install 😎.
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EU update :
The UK post seems to be a bit slow... They now have all the packages and it seems that they will be delivering them soon. @DanielCoffey seems to be correct about their tracking updates.
NZ update :
Morgan is building Tim's pan now just waiting on some materials before packing it to mail.
US update :
Chuck's Pan is just waiting on a some materials before it gets packed, same with a couple others which are being built while we wait.
Bahamas update :
@Vargo6's charger is packed and ready to ship.
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Still no update from Alec in the UK, really should be this week 😎
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EU update :
First packages arrived for inspection. Not all of them yet.
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Bahamas Update :
All units shipped yesterday. Possibly shipping delays by the late George H Bush's death which shut down most of the government today.
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😥 another 7 days past slow UK post 'services' 😢.
Will not getting better when they really leave EU 😎
Everything ordered like potato's or widescreen will almost arrive next day, what's going on in UK???
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@Dennis, I guess its like @DanielCoffey said above... the post seems less attentive in the UK than here or EU.
US & NZ updates :
More pans being made waiting for some more of our special oilrig wire (meant to be soaked in oil, frozen, and set on fire in salt water) and some extra thick wall water resistant, self sealing heat shrink and some bolts before the next shipment. Everything shoul be arriving between monday and wednesday of next week.
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News from the UK:
Alec send email too his customers from order june, the chargers arrive on monday/tuesday!
He will check the leads if ordered to combine them with chargers.
He also maybe wants to CNC a bracket for sockets.
8)
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Hi Guys, do you have a rough idea of when you wil start building the controllers for the next EU batch of orders?
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Hey @Drij,
We will announce here as we move through the orders.
US update :
Almost all materials are in.
Currently on the shipping table just waiting on one or two bits are :
Chuck Burgess, Brad Kline, Joe Tessatore, Edwin Hill, and David Ewart.
NZ update :
Tim Burgess' unit will be shipping tomorrow or the day after.
EU update :
Alec has some units in hand, possibly all of them, reaching out to him at this point will give you the best info. I assume he will be testing and playing with units for a bit as these are the first units he has recieved.
Also, don't forget to order your mennekes adapters from him if you want the special connectors to plug into the walls etc. He has access to hook you up with those.
General update :
Potting more control boards this evening, keeping the fire stoked to keep a hot shop temp to aid in the chemical reaction for the curing process. Please keep your fingers crossed they are all still working when complete.
-Brandon
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keeping the fire stoked to keep a hot shop temp to aid in the chemical reaction for the curing process
Sounds like the opposite of the one time I tried to home brew a batch of beer, at my apartment way back in the late '90s. I needed to keep the batch at something like 58F for a week or two, so I had the HVAC temp as far down as it would go. All my visitors those two weeks always asked "why is your outside doorknob the only one covered in condensation?" ;D
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LMAO @ door knob condensation
NZ update :
Tim's 10kw charger and Sam Baker's v2.5 control board upgrade are being hand courried by Sean to NZ for them. Big Thanks to him for that! Sam's pan upgrade will stay here for him to pick up when he is here next month. If he brings his chargers we will mod them and install in the pan for him.
Other updates :
Everyone here has the flu, and we have taken turns in the hospital monitoring a situation related to the sickness. Thankfully everything seems to be turning out OK and we will all be back to 100% in a few days, returning to the office one at a time as we are able.
The last thing we want is to transmit any sickness from here to other places, so the production area has been quarantined. We will sanitize the floor and tables with fire (or lysol). daily as we return.
Best wishes and holidays if you have any. I will continue to post videos from footage we have yet to be able to use from the recovery beanbag (best thing for my back to sleep in).
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EU: first unit s from Alec in the UK are delivered, including mine 6,6kW at home in the Netherlands.
Every1 from Diginow and the English Electric Motor company: thx for trying and doing your best!!
8)
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> Everyone here has the flu, and we have taken turns in the hospital monitoring a situation related to the sickness. Thankfully everything seems to be turning out OK and we will all be back to 100% in a few days, returning to the office one at a time as we are able.
> The last thing we want is to transmit any sickness from here to other places, so the production area has been quarantined. We will sanitize the floor and tables with fire (or lysol). daily as we return.
> Best wishes and holidays if you have any. I will continue to post videos from footage we have yet to be able to use from the recovery beanbag (best thing for my back to sleep in).
Oh, ouch, get well soon!
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Oh, ouch, get well soon!
Everyone is sick except me. I have become a nurse. Dad was admitted to the hospital (he's being discharged tomorrow), my brother got the flu, Electric Terry caught it from him, Brandon caught a nasty head cold when he went to LA, and the other person who was going to come down and help me care for dad got sick so I told him to stay home.
Tomorrow I might be the lucky recipient of a root canal so I've got more excitement to look forward to!
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Hi guys, new user and Zero owner here. I have been reading up on the SC 2.5 and I like the option, although my dealer told me warranty would be voided when these are installed (Netherlands). This does worry me as the bike is new. It would be an ideal solution since it leaves the option of installing the Power tank on the table.
Also, I really really would like a decent Youtube video of the install by Diginow themselves with the final version of the SC2.5 + pan so I can see how involved the installation actually is, where the Mennekes charge plug should be located and how the apps to manage the chargers look like. The information is out there, but it's in bits and pieces, not really user friendly although I'm an IT guy and quite technical.
Keep up the good work!
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Hey man. Congrats on the new Zero! First I want to assure you that your warranty will not be negatively impacted in any way by installation and use of our units. Zero has publicly stated this, and the warranty on their site makes this clear as well. If you read it they say warranty will be voided if it is discovered the bike is damaged by the aftermarket devices. So yeah, if our chargers are found to be causing damage to the bike I would not expect Zero to be liable for that; it's only fair. Thankfully our units don't damage the bikes. One other thing I know is that Zero headquarter here in the US has asked Zero Netherlands to stop telling people our products void the warranty. Please feel free to email Zero US customer service for any clarification on this.
Next up, quite frankly I think any effort we make for an installation is going to be very shortly outclassed by a video from Sam at New Zeroland (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdEMqkiM5I-98gxZKJXQ65Q). If you haven't already, check out his video on removing the stock Zero charger. He put 3d rendering of the cables into his video; he's much better at that sort of thing than us.
I know that if you're ready for a unit our UK distributor has some available to ship right now. Please send a message to Alec Sharp, alec@englishelectricmotorco.com
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Hi guys, new user and Zero owner here. I have been reading up on the SC 2.5 and I like the option, although my dealer told me warranty would be voided when these are installed (Netherlands). This does worry me as the bike is new. It would be an ideal solution since it leaves the option of installing the Power tank on the table.
Also, I really really would like a decent Youtube video of the install by Diginow themselves with the final version of the SC2.5 + pan so I can see how involved the installation actually is, where the Mennekes charge plug should be located and how the apps to manage the chargers look like. The information is out there, but it's in bits and pieces, not really user friendly although I'm an IT guy and quite technical.
Keep up the good work!
Hi, I'm also from the Netherlands and just received v2.5.
Follow progress on:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/1954290271306838/
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Thanks! Still I'd suggest some decent documentation on the site, provide links and screenshots for the apps, etc. Now it only appeals to the most nerdy of customers while it seems to be a great product. Although I'd have to contact Zero, we don't have the same laws as in the US where the manufacturer has to prove the modification was the source of a fault. In Europe it's the other way around, you changed the product? Too bad for you...
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Then please contact Aaron Cheatham, head of customer service if you don't want to take our word for it.
Documentation is one of the very important things that this IndieGoGo campaign will allow us to do because we can finalize the production process which means everything is more or less "locked in" and standardized. We have had a habit of making little changes and improvements which would, traditionally, make any documentation we write almost immediately useless. Rather than spend time doing that we opted to try and finalize the design first, hence the IndieGoGo. Documentation *will* be a part of it.
This really isn't nearly as daunting or difficult to figure out as it might first appear. I remember the first time I watched Brandon swap plugs around and reconfigure things and it looked like terrifying wizardry. Now, because I can, I'm carrying around adapters in my backpack for 4 different charging configurations and my phone is full of push-button macros for any charger I might encounter; I don't even think twice about it. The average user absolutely doesn't have to do anything like this, though. The whole system is designed to just work after it's installed. Plug it in and it works. If you don't want to have to think about it or mess with it you shouldn't have to. Plug it in, start charging, grab a lovely coffee and pastry, and come back to a charged up machine. Simple.
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Thanks for the clarification, I mailed Zero US to confirm the warranty will be valid in The Netherlands as well after installing the SC2.5.
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Brandon (ElectricCowboy) is actually at Zero HQ right now so I'll see if I can have him stop by Aaron's office to make sure he got your message ;)
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Really hope the tweaking will also involve following public chargers requests of tuning down kWh because loadbalancing becomes more and more build in for Europe.
We don't want coming back noticing power was completely shutdown because the bike was not tuningdown power as requested when alot of EV's were taking too much from the grid at the time :o
8)
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Really hope the tweaking will also involve following public chargers requests of tuning down kWh because loadbalancing becomes more and more build in for Europe.
We don't want coming back noticing power was completely shutdown because the bike was not tuningdown power as requested when alot of EV's were taking too much from the grid at the time
Seconded! :)
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Updates :
We are all back and healthy, appologies for the delay, and thank you for your patience. In the meantime, all of the parts we were waiting for have come in. I will be potting some more boards after I write this update, and morgan is hard at work crimping.
US :
Michael Brehman, Chuck Burgess, Dustin Dippen, and Brad Kline will ship out on christmas eve. Ho ho ho.
Big thank you to Michael, one of our original customers from the Florida days of building for upgrading. He is getting an extra 6.6kw v2.5 along with his v2(alpha) 3.3kw
EU :
Olavi Tepponen's 2014 unit will be shipping out on Christmas Eve. As will as Andre Couse.
Denmark :
"Bike In A Box" and 3.3kw SCv2.5 will know what the ship date will be on Christmas Eve.
Non update related :
@warranty question earlier, I actually was speaking to Zero CS right when you posted on here funny enough. It was explained that they shared the standard stance :
"No, the SCv2.5 does not void your warranty. While it is not an aprooved charger, it would not void the warranty if used appropriately."
@changes to EU networks :
pretty sure we have everything covered, if there is more in the future, the way we have it set up it would be a simple part swap.
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Afaik the whole load-balancing power delivery uses the same PWM signalling as J1772.
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Okay, I contacted Aaron Cheatham from Zero regarding the warranty and it's a bit nuanced. This is not because I don't like the SC2.5, I basically told Aaron that it is superior to the Charge Tank in every way except for the warranty fuss and that Zero should integrate it in their own line-up. Aaron pointed out users best read the warranty info themselves and that the information below could be misread, so please read it yourself as well. Aaron was very fast and helpful in his responses.
That being said, his first answer:
The installation of any unapproved charger does not immediately violate our Zero Motorcycles Limited Motorcycle Warranty. However, our warranty specifically does not cover any damage caused by the improper installation or its use. Since we have not tested or approved this charger, Zero Motorcycles can’t guarantee that this won’t happen. No product is 100% safe. For the full details of our warranty, I would review your owner’s manual or our website here.....
Okay, that's a bit vague. Let's spell it out:
Thank you for your quick and exhaustive reply! If read between the lines, if the battery would degrade too fast within the 5 years or would completely fail and I would have used the supercharger, this would potentially cause a problem with the warranty. Most likely I won't get a replacement if needed. Am I correct?
Answer:
Thank you for your email. Unfortunately, we have not tested nor approved the Diginow charger and so I can’t really answer your questions. They are likely best addressed to them.
Zero won't confirm that there is no issue if you come in with a degraded/broken battery and points to Diginow. So most likely you'll have to go to Diginow if you come in with a battery that has degraded when the SC2 would have been used. From the Diginow website:
If a properly-installed digiNow charger causes direct damage to your bike or battery during our warranty period, we will cover the repair cost to your bike.
In the case of a battery that has degraded faster than expected, is this direct damage because of the SC? That's debatable. Not to be a dick, but this is a risk: Diginow is a 2 man operation and what happens if Zero says well you used a SC and Diginow says it isn't the chargers fault, it was <insert reason: battery inherently flawed, you used the motorcycle in extreme circumstances, etc>.
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I don’t think the SC will charge the bike if it’s too hot or cold. I don’t see how it could possibly degrade the battery. Higher charge speed? The cells are rated up to 1C, so if you use them as recommended, you shouldn’t damage the battery or violate the warranty. “Shouldn’tâ€
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This is the technical argument, I agree, it is highly unlikely that the SC will damage the bike. I have every confidence in these two highly capable people and from a technical and practical standpoint the SC is way way better than the Charge Tank.
But legally speaking this is quite different and it can lead to the situation where Zero won't cover your claim on the battery because the bike has been modified and Diginow disagrees with the assessment, because it has done everything they could and it couldn't possibly be caused by the SC/you drove a lot of miles/etc. Ór Diginow can't cover the guarantee because the company seized to exist. Then there is the fact that as a European customer legally speaking the UK distributor is responsible, not Diginow itself, which can also cause ambiguity. My legal insurance won't touch such a case with an barge pole.
As long as Zero doesn't give a straight answer along the lines of we will cover the warranty despite the use of the properly installed SC, the use of the SC poses a risk to the warranty of the bike, especially in the EU where don't have something along the lines of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. The warranty on the SC itself isn't my concern (two grand is a lot but not the end of the world), the warranty on the bike - for me - however is. I'm sorry to sound like a prick, but I've been in such a situation before and it's no fun at all. :)
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Hopefully Brandon can work out a deal to replace the current onboard charger with Diginow ones straight from the factory. This could put installing them as part of the dealer tech training so if a buyer wanted to upscale past the 3.3 kW (new standard onboard size in this idea) the dealers could add them for those who don't feel comfortable doing it themselves.
Seems like a no brainer since the current onboard charger has had such a bad track record. Also using them as replacements for broken ones on past bikes that can handle them.
This type of scaled up production could bring the cost down even further (plus more for Diginow as well)
Zero if your still watching us come on and get on board its a win win win for you for Diginow and for us which is rare.
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I don’t know if a mid-sized company would want to or need to partner with a small company. They’d profit more cutting them out and just making their own, using their established supply chain. See - original charge tank. Then see the next year’s charge tank. There’s a clear demand and probably a good chunk of profit at the prices the manufacture is charging.
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Agreed Zero makes a nice cut off the charge tank option. But there are really only a few things on the bike that Zero makes.
The chargers, the battery cells, the BMS, the controller, the DC-DC converter, the frame, and all the "motorcycle parts" all come from other companies.
They would just be trading a known problem item, the current onboard chargers, with a closer better QC company that has post purchase scalability.
The pan option gives them the ability to sell a power tank which would double their bike "upgrade options".
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Oh my gosh, guys...
First, thank you to Zero customer service for doing their best to make this as clear to you as they legally can.
Let me clarify this legalese for you as a non representative of Zero, and a non Zero employee. LEGALESE...
If an aftermarket pert damages your bike, Zero is not responcible, if its not the aftermarket companies fault, Zero will honor your warranty. <- Thats 100% fair.
Let me break it down for you, Zero was freaking out for a bit about some software issues they were having, I went to bat for the customers and made the waters rough by calling Zero out. At the same time I did my absolute best to help them fix their issue, I even added complementary battery saftey into the SCv2.5 to show Zero how serious we were about helping them.
Since then We have helped 1 user who did not have an SC get their battery replaced, and a user who DID have an SC get theirs upgraded. On toip of this, one of our customers had a battery get damaged during international shipping of their bike, and Zero replaced their battery for them under warranty too.
Zero is not out there to screw you nor us, and we are not out there to screw Zero or you. This is trickle down in its finest, Zero has a vested interest in not pooping on us now that it is clear we want to help them do great things, and that they see how our customers batteries are better taken care of than others. Perhaps someday we could get the OEM contract, but for now supplying the chargers as aftermarket allows customers who know the fun way of riding their bike to get the units, keeping the stock bike price lower for people who don't yet know they want a super charger.
Anyone who expects Zero to say "If a 3rd party product damages your bike we will fix it" is crazy. What they are saying is more than fair, and they are already out on a limb in legalese. On top of this, they have demonstrated good faith towards us and our customers. It also helps that we are probably in the top 3 people for knowing how these bikes operate in and out outside of Zero.
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Updates :
Mogan finally came down with the very bad sickness the rest of us had over the holiday and will be back tomorrow to ship packages. There was an issue with one of the labels and so rather than ship an SC to the wrong location, I am opting to let him come fix everything. Shipping blows, we have someone coming to get a local install this weekend because their charger got stolen from their porch :o wtf. We filed a claim, this has happened once before, that time it turned out it was just lost in the mail and turned back up at our facility a YEAR later... Hope this one comes back too :(
Olavi has actually opted to wait for the indiegogo units and got an upgade for his setup.
If anyone eklse wants to support, there are 12 hours left... High hopes.
Best,
Brandon
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Pfew.
Thx for all the questions and answer.
I feel fine with my just installed Diginow.
But it's a lot of money, so hopefully every1 is now oke with the current relationship between Zero-Diginow-Owners !
8)
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Anyone who expects Zero to say "If a 3rd party product damages your bike we will fix it" is crazy. What they are saying is more than fair, and they are already out on a limb in legalese. On top of this, they have demonstrated good faith towards us and our customers. It also helps that we are probably in the top 3 people for knowing how these bikes operate in and out outside of Zero.
Okay, I don't think I quite deserve that, I was respectful to both you and the Zero customer support. That it has gone well until now is great, it speaks for both Diginow and Zero that it has. I applaud the innovative solution that you guys made, it's better than the solution Zero has in every technical and practical regard. Also Aaron was very fast and friendly in his answers and I'm not saying that one of these companies is actively trying to screw anyone.
What I'm saying is that there could be cases where it is not clear where the problem has originated and that could lead to problems claiming warranty. Say the battery would have degraded faster than expected after 4 years and would normally be replaced under warranty by Zero, Zero could make the argument (and most automotive companies in The Netherlands would) that fast charging by a third party supplied charger exacerbated the problem while Diginow doesn't believe that it did. Under the current terms on the Diginow website this can cause a discussion and where does that leave me as a customer?
A lot of professional tuners for cars will take on the manufacturer warranty on the engine after tuning the engine because the dealer won't service it anymore after any modification has been done. It would help if the Diginow policy would be the same; if Zero doesn't cover warranty claims because the SC was installed Diginow will take on the warrantly claim without question (US and internationally).
That way I would have certainty as a customer: problems? Call Zero, if Zero denies because SC2 could be the cause: Diginow will cover me no questions asked.
Pfew.
Thx for all the questions and answer.
I feel fine with my just installed Diginow.
But it's a lot of money, so hopefully every1 is now oke with the current relationship between Zero-Diginow-Owners !
8)
Nice! I would really like to know how you like it. Do you happen to leave somewhere near Arnhem? :) Would love to see it!
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Oops, Breda 😎
But all details are here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/1954290271306838
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What I'm saying is that there could be cases where it is not clear where the problem has originated and that could lead to problems claiming warranty. Say the battery would have degraded faster than expected after 4 years and would normally be replaced under warranty by Zero, Zero could make the argument (and most automotive companies in The Netherlands would) that fast charging by a third party supplied charger exacerbated the problem while Diginow doesn't believe that it did. Under the current terms on the Diginow website this can cause a discussion and where does that leave me as a customer?
In the USA it leaves you 100% covered by Zero under the magnuson moss warranty act. Short version is, in the USA the manufacturer needs to PROVE the aftermarket part or modification did all the damage to deny the claim.
As a USA company with lots of people on here in the USA, and superchargers sold primarily in the USA until recently... its been a non-issue. You are correct that they can treat you differently in other countries, but I dont know the law where you are.
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What I'm saying is that there could be cases where it is not clear where the problem has originated and that could lead to problems claiming warranty. Say the battery would have degraded faster than expected after 4 years and would normally be replaced under warranty by Zero, Zero could make the argument (and most automotive companies in The Netherlands would) that fast charging by a third party supplied charger exacerbated the problem while Diginow doesn't believe that it did. Under the current terms on the Diginow website this can cause a discussion and where does that leave me as a customer?
In the USA it leaves you 100% covered by Zero under the magnuson moss warranty act. Short version is, in the USA the manufacturer needs to PROVE the aftermarket part or modification did all the damage to deny the claim.
As a USA company with lots of people on here in the USA, and superchargers sold primarily in the USA until recently... its been a non-issue. You are correct that they can treat you differently in other countries, but I dont know the law where you are.
The burden of proof is the other way around over here or at least it's not on Zero, so Zero can decline to service the bike because of the modifications. Then it's on the customer to prove they should service the bike which isn't doable. In the US the burden of proof is on Zero and it's not doable for them to prove that the SC did the damage because they didn't test the SC, so they won't bother and probably just service the bike.
So unless either Zero (preferable) or Diginow gives an absolute guarantee like many tuners do, in case of problems with the bike you would be in a very uncertain position as a customer over here. Zero could show good faith by doing it despite the lack of obligation, but if they change their policies the customer wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
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In the meantime in the Netherlands:
charging with V2.5.5 in the new bellypan, on my own risk... hoping both Zero and Diginow will be good neighbours might something occur in the future.
For now their intentions are for me enough to enjoy fastcharging bellypan from Diginow over a chargetank from Zero.
8)
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So far 2 users had battery degredation issues which were not related to their SCv2.5 and Zero replaced their batteries for free under warranty. If thats not good enough for you, than don't get one. Zero has demonstrated their position as have we.
Actions speak louder than legalese.
Zero is doing their best to be their for the customers, but there are a lot of people that try to take advantage of them. You have even seen that we have had the same. Immagine someone screwing with their bike, breaking it then telluing Zero they need to fix it for them for free. Zero looks at the bike and then politely tells them to go choke on it. Without doing things the way they are nasty, customers could really damage them. I have been privvy to seeing several nasty customers trying to rip Zero off. not everyone is like us. One person set their bike on fire to tried and get a new one free blaming the fire on Zero... Thats the level of fucked up some people are. Sadly our community also has them.
Actions speak louder than legalese.
Also inrelation to EU, Zero USA has informed distributors that they can not say putting our product on the bike voids the warranty legally. Zero USA and many of the other distributor branchs out there are looking out for the customer. Eventually even the shitty guys have to escalate to Zero USA.
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Hi Guys, do you maybe have a progress update for us guys still waiting on our orders?
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Sure! Drop me an email at morgan@diginow.it so I can give you an update because I don't know who you are based on your forum name :)
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Hey guys, so I am going to move all updates to the indiegogo thread to keep everything synced up in one spot. Going to do an update there now.
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Had a talk with my dealer about the warranty on the bike if a Diginow charger would be installed. He even has one bike with a SC on sale in the shop and he pressed Zero about the warranty during training sessions at Zero. He is quite upfront about his experiences with Zero and likes the SC himself, so I trust him to be fair here.
As I suspected Zero Netherlands will not serve warranty claims once the bike has been modified. The reason my dealer gave was exactly the one I was quoting here earlier (asked an open question, did not steer him in any direction): European law is different from the law in the US and allows the manufacturer to deny warranty after modifications have been made. Zero NL will do so after installation of the SC.
Which total crap, otherwise I would have ordered one tomorrow, especially now my stock charger seems to be giving up after six whole months lol. Luckily, that is going to be fixed under warranty, but still.
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Unplug the SC if the bike needs warranty work and return it to the dealer for work stock?
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I've been told the same by Zero HQ europe >:(
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Unplug the SC if the bike needs warranty work and return it to the dealer for work stock?
Zero could see it was charged with a different charger from the logs of the motorcycle. Dunno if they would check that though. Still if they did, bye bye warranty. Stupid situation, the SC is superior to the charge tank in every regard but the policies at Zero are different in the EU than in the US.
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I don't know how to say, "this is not true" other than to say, "this is not true". Note: I am absolutely NOT calling you a liar. What I am saying is that Brandon has personally spoken to the head of Zero NL while he was here at Zero HQ. Aaron Cheatham of Zero US has assured both us and the general public many times that our stuff does not impact the warranty. If our stuff is proven to damage the bike then absolutely the warranty is voided. That's totally fair and what we expect!
Please, if you are at all concerned I suggest you email Aaron and ask if there is any difference in the stance between Zero US and Zero EU.
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Morgan, I suggest Diginow gets that in writing from Zero because Zero in Europe seems determent to keep people away from Diginows product. (keeping me away from buyng a Zero in turn).
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All,
Zero Motorcycles's Limited Motorcycle warranty IS available in writing. It is available online and in the owners manual. It does not differ by region. See it here: https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/warranty/ (https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/warranty/)
It also very clearly states:
WHAT IS NOT COVERED BY THIS LIMITED WARRANTY?
- Damage, malfunctions, or performance problems caused by the installation or use of any charger not sold or approved by Zero;
Thus, the simple act of installing any third party charger does NOT void your warranty. Zero Motorcycles just doesn't cover damage, malfunctions, etc that are caused by the installation or it's use. It's the same for every third party product that Zero doesn't sell directly and the same for all such products sold for motorcycles.
When any issues arise, Brandon and I speak directly and always are able to come to an accurate decision.
Regards,
aaronzeromoto
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Thanks, Aaron!
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Sorry for the late reply, haven't been home much. Thanks Aaron for the reply, would have mailed you this weekend :) Good to know it does not violate the warranty by default as you indicated in our earlier conversations by mail. I've got two questions:
- Will this policy be respected by Zero in Europe/NL as well? Based on the reply from my dealer - whom I trust - the policy isn't known to everybody.
- What will happen if the Diginow charger has been present and after 4-something years the battery performance drops below the 70% mark, will Zero provide warranty on the battery?
Zero's response to my issues with the bike has been very good btw, much better than the experience I had with my BMW! Really happy with that :)