ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: evtricity on February 08, 2015, 03:04:39 AM
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I recently set up a custom regen lever on a Zero SR using a ZX14 clutch lever joined to a pressure transducer and wired into the footbrake function of the Zero's Sevcon controller (see photo at the end of this post).
The result has been a very smooth and powerful regenerative brake which can push high currents of over 140A or 15kW back into the battery. The regen brake can lock the back wheel at speeds under 50kph on dry roads matching the performance of the stock rear brake with much better feel than a foot brake.
How does this compare to the regen you can get using the Zero's Eco, Sport and Custom modes?
As you all know, the 3 performance modes each offer different levels of regen for neutral throttle and for when you first start pulling on the front brake lever ("an on/off style brake switch"). To more accurately assess the regen available in each mode you can use the amps and kWatts figures provided by the Zero phone app (or Sevcon controller software) - see photo at the end of this post.
To give you an idea of the relative regen power, here are the stock settings for the maximum possible in Custom mode (according to the Sevcon controller). These are for a 2014 Zero SR, and they might be a little different for your year/model.
- Max battery charge rate = 40A
- Custom regen % on neutral throttle = 10% (shown as 100% in the Zero app)
- Custom regen % on (front) brake switch = 10% (shown as 100% in the Zero app)
For comparison, a separate regen lever would allow you to increase the maximum regen substantially. To achieve the power described above the following settings have been applied:
- Max battery charge rate = 150A
- Regen % on neutral throttle = 0%
- Regen % on (front) brake switch = 0%
- Regen % on footbrake = 60%
- Removed the max regen limit of 4,500rpm (which is 75% of your max motor speed of 6,000 rpm and normally means that regen doesn't work above 120kph/75mph on SR, S and DS models).
For those looking at setting up a separate regen lever, changes need to be made in the Sevcon controller and Main Bike Board. Here are the details:
- In the MBB, the maximum regen limit should be increased (from 4500rpm) to the maximum motor rpm - usually 6000rpm.
- In the Sevcon the maximum battery charge current can be increased from 40A to 91A.
- To go higher than 91A, in the Sevcon controller the RPDO 1 setting which controls the Maximum Charge limit can be removed and in its place a dummy (16-bit) entry placed. The maximum battery charge current can now be increased beyond 91A (the MBB limit).
- In the Sevcon under Torque Control there is a braking torque limit of 72Nm. You shouldn't need to adjust the limit as 60% (used above) of that limit is plenty of power.
- There is also a brake feathering option in the Sevcon which reduces the available regen at lower speeds (to prevent the rear wheel going into reverse). To have regen bring the bike to a foot down stop, setting the feather start to 1000rpm (about 27kph) and ending at 0rpm with an ending regen torque of 0Nm works well. A higher feather start rpm may be better if you use strong regen.
- Lastly, you need to determine whether you want the throttle or regen lever to take priority when both are pulled. I like the throttle to take priority but like most settings here there is no right or wrong, it's what you like best for your riding.
For wet riding, lower torque settings are more appropriate and can be readily set using the three Sevcon profiles (modes) in a similar manner to what you can achieve with the Zero app in custom mode.
For road riding - this high power, well modulated brake allows you to balance front and rear brakes better and even has an in-built mechanism to safely handle rear wheel locks (not as good as ABS but keeps any wheel locks very brief). The only downside I have found with this regen setup is that on the track where you're either on the throttle or on the brakes, it doesn't give the motor any respite and results in higher motor temperatures. In normal street riding this wouldn't be an issue for everything but the most spirited canyon riding.
For anyone who may be interested in adding a regen lever to their bike a friend of mine is selling the levers that offer a similar set up to mine @ http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/regen-levers-pressure-transducer-138066.html (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/regen-levers-pressure-transducer-138066.html)
Of course, you'll still need to wire the cable from the lever into the Sevcon and make the changes in the Sevcon controller via an IXXAT CAN-USB adapter.
Based on some of the feedback for 2016 models, having a left hand regen lever would be a good aftermarket option that could be readily added to any Zero. Include a parameter in the Zero app to control its regen/braking force and I think there could be quite a few takers for this upgrade.
Interested to hear your thoughts and any questions on regen braking for your Zero.
- Is a left hand hand brake the best way to implement regen brake?
- Is this something Zero should be considering as standard or optional for future bikes?
- What about a bidirectional throttle like in the Vectrix scooters?
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Personally, I would prefer the bi-directional Vectrix-type throttle for that modification. Since I ride four IC motorcycles in addition to my Zero, and am always switching back and forth, I can see how having a clutch lever that performs the regen function would be a problem for me. But having the regen triggered by either the brakes or a reverse throttle would eliminate that potential issue when switching from the Zero to other IC motorcycles, in my opinion. Right now I used the Zero app to apply 100% regen when braking. I wouldn't mind having 150% when applying the front brake and 100% when using the rear brake lever.
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What was the max Nm you got with stock 40amp limit? I think mine is currently set up at 10Nm at torque setting and 20% at brake regen setting. I need to raise it up a bit though as well as the max rpm. At this setting I haven't peaked 25Nm when regen was maxed out like I could stock so I think the numbers do different things with the "analog foot brake lever" setting vs stock. (7.2Nm and 15% was stock on my bike when I got it)
I have the same setup as dgh853 and like it so far. Being a ex gammer I have no problem with switching between a clutch and regen lever on bikes.
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The left lever could be made to approximate the action of a clutch, if you so desired.
1. Significantly improve "off-throttle" regen as described here, though not to the point of locking the rear wheel. Care would need to be taken in wet or low-grip riding conditions, perhaps by using eco switch as a "rain mode".
2. When the left lever is pulled, attenuate the regen strength (optionally, also reduce torque when the throttle is rolled on). When the lever is pulled completely the bike will freewheel, as if the clutch on a gas bike was disengaged.
I suspect the way you have it setup is better if you only ride electric, but it may cause you to build bad muscle memory if you occasionally ride gas.
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The Vectrix throttle also avoids that regen and accelerate can be applied simultaneously.
And it worked as a slow speed reverse too, but your regen brake could probably do that as well if you wanted.
I am surprised that no other bike uses the Vectrix throttle yet. The Vectrix IP was not sold at the chapter 7 auction so I guess the patented feature is now freely available?
Everyone who has ever ridden a Vectrix and I talked to was super positive on the throttle.
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The Vectrix throttle also avoids that regen and accelerate can be applied simultaneously.
And it worked as a slow speed reverse too, but your regen brake could probably do that as well if you wanted.
I am surprised that no other bike uses the Vectrix throttle yet. The Vectrix IP was not sold at the chapter 7 auction so I guess the patented feature is now freely available?
Everyone who has ever ridden a Vectrix and I talked to was super positive on the throttle.
Including me when I went for a test ride at Marin BMW (now the headquarters of Planet Box, where my daughter works - its a small world) about two years after Vectrix was introduced to the U.S. market. I think Vectrix was one of a number of factors that put Marin (CA) BMW on the rocks and left the county with no BMW motorcycle dealers in sight. :( But the Triumph/Ducati dealer in San Rafael still seems to be doing well.
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"I think Vectrix was one of a number of factors that put Marin (CA) BMW on the rocks and left the county with no BMW motorcycle dealers in sight"
Curious why that would be... That's where I got my Vectrix in 2008 (17,000 miles and still running strong). At that time gas was nearly $5/gal. and the Vectrix was selling "like hotcakes" according to the salesman.
They got $10K from me and I told everyone I knew to go there and buy an electric bike :-)
As far as the Vectrix-style throttle-controlled regen braking - I agree it's the best way to go - it's intuitive and natural- would love to see Zero try it.
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Marin BMW was put under by poor management. Taking on Vectrix was just one more nail in their coffin. The Vectrix scooters sold well for a short time and then sales died, for whatever reason. But that was just a small part of the business. There were much larger factors, including personal and financial issues.
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well done bravo
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Getting ready to install my regen lever. I understand that my signal needs go into pin 23 of the sevcon and just ground to B-, but where are you getting power. 10V off of pin 34 where the throttle takes its power?
Thanks
Kyle
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/03/03/c7bcd7d9d38cb20f997c6161ffbbf0d8.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yes, you need to split off from the 10/12v throttle input. I used a DC to DC converter to get the voltage to the 5v I needed for my pressure transducer.
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There is a small resistor in the throttle line which you can remove and splice in it at that point (as it was only needed for the XU model).
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I tapped into the 24vdc powering the CAN requiring external power supply
Pin 28 (yellow red stripe on 2013 models)
Routed that into the 5v powersupply
There are some things technically wrong in here as this wasn't intended for my electric motorcycle savvy friends but people who knew nothing that were interested to know what I was doing so I didn't QC this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H5tTGqPT6c&list=PL9QUUIIdnTqkWeDNdGdTneDyNmxo9tGBZ&index=37 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H5tTGqPT6c&list=PL9QUUIIdnTqkWeDNdGdTneDyNmxo9tGBZ&index=37)
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Thanks for the tips guys. I was worried about pulling too much current from the throttle line.
Note that I do not have a Zero. I just have a ZF75-7 motor and size6 controller on my bike.
I am going to go ahead and just try running 10V through my pressure transducer and tuning that signal on DVT software. I'll tie into the 10V out at the Sevcon. I think that should work ok. If not I'll get a small DC/DC converter
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Make sure your pressure transducer can support 10v.
The one I got only supports 5v, any thing over it will fry it and then you will have to bleed your brakes again >_<
I actually had to do my pressure transducer twice as I messed up the mounting pins the first time and had to get the 90 degree elbow for the second attempt.
It doesn't matter where you pull the voltage from your sevcon as long as it meets your needs. it does however have to come from the sevcon and not the dc/dc onbike converter.
If you are not using pin 28 I know the pins required for that connector if you wanted to just run a pin from there to your dc/dc converter in the future.
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Ok so 10V will most likely fry a 5V transducer. I suppose it is most likely just a strain gauge setup on some sort of diaphragm so overvoltage could quite easily damage it. I'm going to try a 5V regulator from radioshack and tap the throttle line 10V. I want something that I can wire right into the harness
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Yes 10v will fry your 5v transducer ;)
Also I think you have remap your throttle high / low voltage I you tap into the throttle 10v source. This is why I instead used the pin 28 24vdc power source :D
Most 5v regulators can accept more than 10v in, mine I think accepts from 10-30 v dc for example. Just have to hunt around or them online.
Also have you pre-fitted the clutch on your bike to ensure the transducer doesn't bump anything? This was a problem on mine when I had it pointing straight down as well but my handlebars have been cut down to size. I know you have a different "tank" then we do ;)
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Yea I think I am going to tap the 24V CAN line with a 5V linear regulator. I can just solder it inline and heat shrink it into the harness.
And you called it, the master cylinder doesnt fit on my bike. The unit, even without transducer, hits my headlight and the bodywork :( So I need to order a smaller master cylinder, one that matches my right hand lever better. This should be able to fit. My issue is that I have a race fairing and clip ons on my bike. Greatly limits the clearances. Itll be a week now before I have regen :-\
If anyone needs a master cylinder and lever let me know. I can include the transducer as well if necessary
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These settings look right per your suggestions dgh853?
sevnoregspeed - Prevent Regen At High Speed : No was (Yes)
sevmaxregrpm - Max Regen RPM : 6000 rpm (was 4500)
sevnoregfull - Prevent Regen When Full : Yes
sevmaxregv - Max Regen Cell Voltage : 4160 mV
sevmaxchgcur - Sevcon Max Batt Chg Amps : -90 A per brick (was -20 A) [set at -90A at sevcon to]
sevmaxdischgcur - Sevcon Max Batt Dischg Amps : 250 A per brick
Just an FYI for anyone interested to know. My transducer died, the low voltage creeped up over time till it was no longer responsive despite setting the lower voltage before each ride via the sevcon. So I purchased the same style but 300 psi. Using the same clutch as before the max voltage was 4.8 which is equivalent of 288psi with the z14r clutch setup.
I have my sevcon set for 15% on eco of 40Nm and sport is set to 100%, this gives me -30ft/lbs when in full regen mode. I have not tested anything greater yet. From my calculations dgh853 your actual Nm is 43.2Nm or 31.8 Ft/lbs (72Nm *.6)
This all seem right?
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After talking with Terry last night we came to the conclusion the base Max Regen Cell voltage technically could come up some, and the -90A per brick is over 1C per brick.
This morning I set the Amps per brick back down to -20, despite knowing it can go up to ~25A to see what effect if any it would have. I left the cell voltage where it was as I am not pressed to have a little extra voltage sitting around.
The highest value ft/lbs I noticed coming into work was -36, so I suspect I could go a full 40 under the right conditions but I will keep an eye on it to see if this is the "max" I can reach with these settings.
Regen at high speed, at least on one test, produced -20 ft/lbs which felt a lot better than the capped -9 I was getting previous to changing the max regen rpm and the high speed regen setting. The new lever has slightly better range than the last one but the change wasn't too noticeable.
More testing to follow.
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These settings look right per your suggestions dgh853?
sevnoregspeed - Prevent Regen At High Speed : No was (Yes)
sevmaxregrpm - Max Regen RPM : 6000 rpm (was 4500)
sevnoregfull - Prevent Regen When Full : Yes
sevmaxregv - Max Regen Cell Voltage : 4160 mV
sevmaxchgcur - Sevcon Max Batt Chg Amps : -90 A per brick (was -20 A) [set at -90A at sevcon to]
sevmaxdischgcur - Sevcon Max Batt Dischg Amps : 250 A per brick
Just an FYI for anyone interested to know. My transducer died, the low voltage creeped up over time till it was no longer responsive despite setting the lower voltage before each ride via the sevcon. So I purchased the same style but 300 psi. Using the same clutch as before the max voltage was 4.8 which is equivalent of 288psi with the z14r clutch setup.
I have my sevcon set for 15% on eco of 40Nm and sport is set to 100%, this gives me -30ft/lbs when in full regen mode. I have not tested anything greater yet. From my calculations dgh853 your actual Nm is 43.2Nm or 31.8 Ft/lbs (72Nm *.6)
This all seem right?
Burton,
The MBB regen at high speed and max rpm adjustments are right. I didn't change any of the other settings for regen on the MBB you listed. By changing the RPDO on the Sevcon controller to ignore any limit coming from the MBB or BMS (hint: delete the existing charge limit and use a dummy 16-bit value in its place) you can set a higher charge rate - beyond the stock 91A limit and above the 1C rating or 100A for a standard 4 x 25A brick setup. I understand from someone familiar with the Zero batteries that running over 1C is no problem if you're only doing it for short periods (seconds rather than minutes).
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I have my regen lever installed. I ended up stealing the 24V from the CAN power and ran that to a 5V regulator from radioshack.
Using the DVT software I am able to see the analog 2 input change from 0-5V when I pull the lever. Wiring seems to be just fine. On the "Input/Output" tab, I have also change the analog inputs to "2" and mapped analog signal 2 to "footbrake pot in". The problem comes in when I try to go to footbrake settings in the "Tree" tab. I try to change the min and max voltages I get an error. I attached a picture of the error.
ERROR: cant read "high_limit (2911,1)"
The other odd thing is that the first field in the footbrake settings shows up as "????".
Anyone have any tips? Remember I dont have a Zero, just the motor and controller.
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z160/buckboom00/Electric%20R6/IMG_0453_zpstp7pdyxq.jpg) (http://s194.photobucket.com/user/buckboom00/media/Electric%20R6/IMG_0453_zpstp7pdyxq.jpg.html)
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This is an issue with the DVT software installation. I have one laptop that has this problem and one that works correctly and show the high values and will take the changes. Try installing the DVT Software on another laptop or do a complete reinstall on your existing machine (clear out all directories between uninstall and install).
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This is an issue with the DVT software installation. I have one laptop that has this problem and one that works correctly and show the high values and will take the changes. Try installing the DVT Software on another laptop or do a complete reinstall on your existing machine (clear out all directories between uninstall and install).
Worked right away! Thanks for the heads up on this.
Went for a quick go around the parking lot to try things out and change some settings. Note I need a good road test before confirming what settings I like best. Cold tires and smooth concrete dont allow very good rear traction on braking and a bad testbed.
I tried brake feather out (200RPM to 0RPM) and didnt like it very much on the first go around. First settings I am going to try on the road:
72Nm braking max torque, 30% max allowable in both eco/sport
Stop regen at 100RPM (I think I want it higher)
1V to 4.2V as active range.
120A, 117.6V battery limits (with Nissan leaf pack)
There are a few quirks right now, that I want to investigate further. Like more drag on the bike when in neutral. And when I pull and release the regen lever at a stop the chain tightens and then releases.
-Kyle
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From my experience is itsnt the software which needs reinstalling but a proper db files. I tried so many versions before realizing this and acquired a working set of db files, and it makes all previous versions work.
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This is an issue with the DVT software installation. I have one laptop that has this problem and one that works correctly and show the high values and will take the changes. Try installing the DVT Software on another laptop or do a complete reinstall on your existing machine (clear out all directories between uninstall and install).
There are a few quirks right now, that I want to investigate further. Like more drag on the bike when in neutral. And when I pull and release the regen lever at a stop the chain tightens and then releases.
-Kyle
Well, the regen isn't really a brake as much as it applies negative torque trying not to reverse direction the best it can, so the chain tightening backwards and releasing at a stop sounds perfectly logical to me.
Try it with your back wheel off the ground. After using the throttle pull the regen lever fast and hard. Does the back wheel actually reverse direction slightly before coming to a stop? If it does don't be worried. Off the ground mine goes backwards too briefly with my high regen settings. But never have I ever gone backwards in 50,000 miles of using settings that on the road, or even felt that was happening in the slightest.
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Well, the regen isn't really a brake as much as it applies negative torque trying not to reverse direction the best it can, so the chain tightening backwards and releasing at a stop sounds perfectly logical to me.
Try it with your back wheel off the ground. After using the throttle pull the regen lever fast and hard. Does the back wheel actually reverse direction slightly before coming to a stop? If it does don't be worried. Off the ground mine goes backwards too briefly with my high regen settings. But never have I ever gone backwards in 50,000 miles of using settings that on the road, or even felt that was happening in the slightest.
Since I have a reverse switch on my FX and my e-trike I decided to see if I switched to reverse while coasting down a hill if that would give me regen when I roll on the throttle. Sure enough, I don't get variable regen as I hoped, but it does go into the preset regen until I come to a stop and then it starts backing up. So the only reason we don't go backwards when we apply regen is because it cuts off just before we stop.
BTW - It was Harlan's suggestion that i try this since I had the reverse function. We both hoped I would get throttle variable regen, but no. :'(
Trikester
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Wanted to give my experiences so far with the regen lever and my recent software changes. So far I like having the regen. My commute is all highway and I basically dont touch the brakes for 30miles straight. Just letting off the throttle at 75-80mph is enough to slow me down for any traffic that pops up. However with I am getting 1% of my energy back according to my cycle analyst over that commute. I would guess 4-5% in city. The best part is not having to wear my brake pads at all. I havent been too impressed with the feel thus far but I think I just solved some of the problems. I see peaks of 5kW braking force so far.
I have been running with 30% of max torque (72Nm) for braking. Pot voltage range 1V to 4.2V and I was using "curved" characteristic. The dead zone at the start makes the regen quite jumping and the curved setting made it feel more like an on off switch. So I changed to 0.75V to 4.5V to spread my range out and I also went to linear. Ride around the parking lot for a few minutes it feels much better. smoother and more confidence inspiring. I also upped the max pull to 45% because I have not felt any rear locking at all with the current settings.
On my next commute I will get a better idea of how the new settings work for me.
PS I still have a spare ZX10 lever/master cylinder if anyone wants it (didnt fit on my R6).
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Nuts n Volts,
Do you a build thread of your bike?
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Nuts n Volts,
Do you a build thread of your bike?
Not on this forum, but I do have one over on El Moto. Dont keep it super up to date sadly
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Nuts n Volts,
Do you a build thread of your bike?
Not on this forum, but I do have one over on El Moto. Dont keep it super up to date sadly
Link please [emoji3]
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Nuts n Volts,
Do you a build thread of your bike?
Not on this forum, but I do have one over on El Moto. Dont keep it super up to date sadly
Link please [emoji3]
Sorry, I copied the link, but had a brain fart. http://elmoto.net/tell-us-about-your-project/1906-nutshock-v2-0-electric-r6-build-3.html?highlight=nutshock+2.0 (http://elmoto.net/tell-us-about-your-project/1906-nutshock-v2-0-electric-r6-build-3.html?highlight=nutshock+2.0)
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Great thread!
Sorry to drag an old thread up.
Can the sevcon use ANY 0-5v input for this (as long as its driven from the sevcon itself?) Is there any reason why I cant run a cable to a variable resistor from a lever or modify a lever to move a pot directly?
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Great thread!
Sorry to drag an old thread up.
Can the sevcon use ANY 0-5v input for this (as long as its driven from the sevcon itself?) Is there any reason why I cant run a cable to a variable resistor from a lever or modify a lever to move a pot directly?
Yeah you can have a pot hooked up to the controller for this purpose then create a method of moving the pot switch. In some ways this is superior to the method I am using in that it will likely last longer without issues.
See this example:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2722.msg12128#msg12128 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2722.msg12128#msg12128)
You could also do a pressure switch which takes a digital signal and converts it to analog.
I chose the transducer method because of how easy it would be to set up and because it would simulate a pressure switch without needing added circuits to make it happen.
It isn't without issues though and I have had a transducer fail in the past as well as "stick" when it gets colder. I might suggest putting a switch inline with any device you attach in case you are on a trip and really need to disable it for any reason.
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Thanks!
Yes, the reason I ask is that I have built something similar for my diesel bike project.
The lever on the governor is very hard to move, so takes a lot of effort. I drive the lever on the governor with a servo motor, and drive the servo with a controller.
The controller takes input from the throttle via a cable that moves a linear pot. After a while it has been reliable and required very few tweaks, just wondered if I could do that same with the regen lever!
I am now trying to find the sevon DVT software thats compatible with the 1.6 dongle. Lots of places say its easy to get, but I have only been able to find the 2.0 version. Trying to avoid buying a 1.6 dongle second hand, only to find out I am unable to get the software :)
With the DVT software, do I need to load a base configuration, or can it pull the configuration down from the sevcon?
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With the DVT software, do I need to load a base configuration, or can it pull the configuration down from the sevcon?
Look for the manual thunderstruck puts out and you will see the first thing it tells you to do is download your current configuration files.
Don't skip this step!
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With the DVT software, do I need to load a base configuration, or can it pull the configuration down from the sevcon?
Look for the manual thunderstruck puts out and you will see the first thing it tells you to do is download your current configuration files.
Don't skip this step!
Many thanks!
So, save the DCF before doing anything. Gotcha
(assume we are talking about this document?)
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/images/DVT%20Customer%20Manual.pdf (http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/images/DVT%20Customer%20Manual.pdf)
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Yup that is the one. It is a good precursor to learning to use the software.
If you get errors backing up the config file then try to install another version of DVT (There are several out there) ... if none work you would need to seek out someone with a proper EDS library file to use as a base for your bike. (Not sure if this varies per model year or if it is universal)
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I made my own version of a regen brake lever.
I used the information in this thread, which was very helpful. Since EVtricity is not active anymore, and the (great!) video by Burton is not fully complete, I decided to make a how-to video.
Hopefully it's complete and helps the next guy trying to do this:)
https://youtu.be/T7K2B9KRjxw
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Siccc!
Way to be thorough in the expo, too — better name that mod (DK’s regen, or some such..)
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Thanks;) naah I used too much good info from other people to call it mine:D
What do you mean with being thorough in the expo?;)
Best regards !
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^short for explanation — I *mean*, thanks for providing all that specific programming-data in the vid, which makes for a damn good how-to, from beginning to end. You’re the man. 👍
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Ah thanks a lot man!
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Cool vid! It is verry clear :D
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thanks, I can't look at it right now but it's something I would really like to do.
maybe a stupid question, but can you brick the bike while messing with the CAN changes ?
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Hey, yes it can absolutely be bricked, simply because all the important settings are there.
But if you follow the instructions and don't click anywhere wrong, it's fine. You should know how to use DVT before, there's a Manual PDF that helps in preparation:)