ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: rider7 on January 16, 2017, 10:21:07 AM
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Hey guys,
Today was the first day I familiarized myself with the components on my new 2017 DSR but....
I just discovered something very disturbing.
The main reason why I paid premium for the DSR model was because they upgraded the controller to 775A and also specify a motor model 75-7R instead of 75-7.
I discovered this plaque on my controller.
AU3720 SEVCON
Type Gen4 80V 550 A
Controller part number: 634A85210
Serial: 1610300290
MY17 DSR 13.0
And I cannot find 76-5R on my motor.
Any idea how that is to be explained?
Now I am really wondering if I even have a 2017 model.
The belt is 17mm wide. Someone here said the old belt was 14mm.
But I think he referred to the FXS.
The sticker on the steering stem says manufactured Dec. 2016, so it should be a 2017 model.
It also says model 2017, but why does it not show the amps on the ontroller and the R on the motor?
Help me out here, would you?
I won't move this bike until I get to the bottom of this now.
Maybe you guys have the same thing going on and the nominal numbers on the stickers don't mean anything, but in my world, they should.
I will contact the dealer and Zero tomorrow, unless I get good feedback here.
Rider7
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that sticker also says 80v and you know its a 116v bike... I doubt you can trust that sticker.
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that sticker also says 80v and you know its a 116v bike... I doubt you can trust that sticker.
Mr.Dude,
I never actually looked at voltages to be quite honest.
So, I don't know that it's 116V.
The zero sticker below the controller plaque also says MY 17 which probably means manufacturing year 2017.
The steering stem sticker says mfg. Dec. 2016. I know that is normal for the successive model year.
But, I am more inclined to believe the SEVCON sticker than the Zero sticker if this is actually a 2016 model.
Although the 2016 model page on their website says 660A controller.
I am open for more input here.
Whoever bought a 2017 DSR, please check your controller and your motor engraving, I want to know if your's show the same specs.
Rider7
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You might consider a more informative title if you want the right people to read this thread.
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If you go to Sevcon's website and download their size 2,4,6 Gen 4 manual you will see that 80v nominal has a range of 39v-116v
And the 550A peak rating (2 min) has a boost of 660A (10 seconds). This document was however produced in July 2016, and this is an update to the Gen 4. Lets call it the Gen 4.5. Its peak is 775 Amps.
Your production date was Dec 2016? There is no doubt it's a 2017 model! Why the cause for concern? Why the subject line Help!!!!!!?
No need to contact Zero and waste their time or yours. Go find a 2016 DSR and accelerate 0-60 side by side and see the difference. The bike you have has over 100 more amps available to the motor than the 2016 DSR's did.
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Hey Guys mine is a 17 DRS and here's my motor ID - mine hauls ass!
(http://www.com-pany.com/zero/ebrake/motor.jpg)
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If you go to Sevcon's website and download their size 2,4,6 Gen 4 manual you will see that 80v nominal has a range of 39v-116v
And the 550A peak rating (2 min) has a boost of 660A (10 seconds). This document was however produced in July 2016, and this is an update to the Gen 4. Lets call it the Gen 4.5. Its peak is 775 Amps.
Your production date was Dec 2016? There is no doubt it's a 2017 model! Why the cause for concern? Why the subject line Help!!!!!!?
No need to contact Zero and waste their time or yours. Go find a 2016 DSR and accelerate 0-60 side by side and see the difference. The bike you have has over 100 more amps available to the motor than the 2016 DSR's did.
Thanks Electric Terry,
Not sure why you ask me why I was concerned about this and ask for help, hence the subject.
If I see a subject line help I check immediately why someone asks for help.
So I think "Help" is the perfect subject to get help.
I don't know anybody with a 2016 Zero, so I cannot compare.
Do you have an idea why the motor doesn't have R engraved on it?
It has all the other numbers.
Also, why wouldn't I be concerned? How am I supposed to know that the peak current isn't specified on the plaque?
I am new to EVs.
I really appreciate your feedback though Electric Terry, I mean it :)
Thanks
Rider7
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Stupid thread title!
Sounds like your were in an motorcycle accident! LOL
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Stupid thread title!
Sounds like your were in an motorcycle accident! LOL
Hahaha...ok, ok guys, get over it.
It felt I was after I saw the ominous 550A starring at me.
I can see myself grabbing my phone after a crash writing Help to this forum
before calling the ambulance :)
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There's noting to worry about you'll get a full 12 hp and a top sped of 45 mph from your 17 Zero. LOL
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Another case solved by EMF.! ;D
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Holy moly,
You guys are an electric bunch ;D
By the way, I have to apologize for having had tunnel vision on the motor engraving.
It has the R in the top line, just not in the line I expected it to be in as it is on their website.
Also, I learned that the part number 30-08100 is the R version. The none R is 30-08099.
I have to drive myself to the ER now from all that stress of having thought I bought a 12 hp, 45mph super bike. At least it's silent.... hahah...
One last word, I don't care what you guys think and say, I don't think it was obvious that I had to assume that the peak boost is not on the label?
I am really surprised that not more people had the same question seeing 550A when they expect to see a nice 775A. :o :o
Ok, I am letting it go now.
And by the way, yes, it does go insanely fast, it almost pulls one's fillings out..... but I have no comparison, and next year, there will probably be 1000A controller that melts your ass at full throttle :D
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I Just picked up my 3rd Zero a few weeks ago. With work and less than pleasant weather
I haven't had much chance to check it out too closely. Funny thing about THIS bike is that
when it was registered originally, the person at DMV did not keep the MSO, so, I got it
along with the Title.
Information on MSO:
Date: February 10 2016
Series or Model: 2016 SR ZF 13.0
HP ( S.A.E. ) 16KW
So, I have a 21 HP Zero SR
That might explain why I was less impressed than I had hoped.
Off for the next two days, forecast for mid 50s and Sunny, so,
hopefully I will be able to get a little more time to evaluate.
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I Just picked up my 3rd Zero a few weeks ago. With work and less than pleasant weather
I haven't had much chance to check it out too closely. Funny thing about THIS bike is that
when it was registered originally, the person at DMV did not keep the MSO, so, I got it
along with the Title.
Information on MSO:
Date: February 10 2016
Series or Model: 2016 SR ZF 13.0
HP ( S.A.E. ) 16KW
So, I have a 21 HP Zero SR
That might explain why I was less impressed than I had hoped.
Off for the next two days, forecast for mid 50s and Sunny, so,
hopefully I will be able to get a little more time to evaluate.
Hahahah, KrazyEd,
don't let that whopping 21 hp kill you :)
Do keep your bikes or sell them when you buy new ones?
Rider7
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I have been down the quarter mile in 9 seconds at over 150 mph on Turbocharged Z1R and
GSXr street bikes, Also over 200 mph on the dry lakes so I should be okay with the Zeros.
As far as my old bikes, sometimes I sell them other times not.
In July of 2015, I was run over on my XU on the way home from picking it up after Harlan
put a new motor in it. It was Destroyed, so, I had my FX and my Suzuki SV650 to ride.
Early Spring 2016 I started looking at replacements. Wasn't happy with what I saw, so,
went out to my back garage pulled out a 1985 Kawasaki 750 Turbo that I resurrected
and have been riding along with the other two for the past year. Now that I have the
SR, I will probably put the Turbo back into the garage. The FX is a 2013 5.7 set up
the same as the new FXS with S Wheels, bigger brakes and the Fox shock. Not sure
if anyone would be willing to pay enough for the FX to justify getting rid of it so probably
keep it because it is so much fun to play with.
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I have been down the quarter mile in 9 seconds at over 150 mph on Turbocharged Z1R and
GSXr street bikes, Also over 200 mph on the dry lakes so I should be okay with the Zeros.
As far as my old bikes, sometimes I sell them other times not.
In July of 2015, I was run over on my XU on the way home from picking it up after Harlan
put a new motor in it. It was Destroyed, so, I had my FX and my Suzuki SV650 to ride.
Early Spring 2016 I started looking at replacements. Wasn't happy with what I saw, so,
went out to my back garage pulled out a 1985 Kawasaki 750 Turbo that I resurrected
and have been riding along with the other two for the past year. Now that I have the
SR, I will probably put the Turbo back into the garage. The FX is a 2013 5.7 set up
the same as the new FXS with S Wheels, bigger brakes and the Fox shock. Not sure
if anyone would be willing to pay enough for the FX to justify getting rid of it so probably
keep it because it is so much fun to play with.
KrazyEd,
You would have loved Germany where I am from. You can legally go pretty much as fast as you want to. Just don't crash. You are automatically at partial fault if you decided to go faster than 80 and crash, but it is totally legal unless you are on a stretch with posted speed restriction, which we do have a lot in busy areas.
But I remember going WOT for long stretches at 150 mph and no one can sue you:)
I can't believe you have a turbo Kawasaki. I remember looking at the 750 when it came out.
Ah, ok, I get it..... it almost sounded you just keep on buying zeros :)
I am thankful that guy's like you adopted so early, it helped to get to the zeros to where they are today.
Thanks
Rider7
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Hi All,
It seems the original post has created some concern for new owners of MY17 Zero DSR and SR motorcycles globally. Rest assured that all the 2017 SR and DSR motorcycles received the highest performance parts and meet the specifications that Zero published.
With respect to the higher performance Sevcon Controller, the label provided by Sevcon only lists the power rating at 80V, but as reported in prior posts, our motorcycle does operate at a higher voltage and thus delivers higher performance. Don't overlook the label in the picture bellow the Sevcon sticker that clearly states MY17 DSR 13.0. I can confirm that the Sevcon Part Number 634A85210 is the one called out in our current internal specification.
NOTE: These labels are hidden under the formex covering the controller. This is a high voltage area. Be careful! We use a discharge tool before we touch this area.
With respect to the motor, it is easy to overlook the R after the IPM. I can confirm that the current, correct motor part number for a 17MY SR and DSR is 30-08100.
As we strive to produce the best motorcycle possible at a competitive price, suppliers and part numbers can change at any time. So the lawyers would likely want me to remind you that Zero may change these designations at any time. :) If there are further questions, you can always ask your dealer to work with us to answer such questions or provide other confirmations.
Enjoy your ride!
@aaronzeromoto
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Hi All,
It seems the original post has created some concern for new owners of MY17 Zero DSR and SR motorcycles globally. Rest assured that all the 2017 SR and DSR motorcycles received the highest performance parts and meet the specifications that Zero published.
With respect to the higher performance Sevcon Controller, the label provided by Sevcon only lists the power rating at 80V, but as reported in prior posts, our motorcycle does operate at a higher voltage and thus delivers higher performance. Don't overlook the label in the picture bellow the Sevcon sticker that clearly states MY17 DSR 13.0. I can confirm that the Sevcon Part Number 634A85210 is the one called out in our current internal specification.
NOTE: These labels are hidden under the formex covering the controller. This is a high voltage area. Be careful! We use a discharge tool before we touch this area.
With respect to the motor, it is easy to overlook the R after the IPM. I can confirm that the current, correct motor part number for a 17MY SR and DSR is 30-08100.
As we strive to produce the best motorcycle possible at a competitive price, suppliers and part numbers can change at any time. So the lawyers would likely want me to remind you that Zero may change these designations at any time. :) If there are further questions, you can always ask your dealer to work with us to answer such questions or provide other confirmations.
Enjoy your ride!
@aaronzeromoto
Dear aaronzeromoto,
Thank you very much for replying to all.
I must apologize for having overreacted.
I am a technician, actually a trained and certified car mechanic from Germany, and now I repair CNC machines, and spec. labels on motion control servos amplifiers usually show voltage ranges and amp ranges.
I must admit, I was so excited to finally be able to buy one of your top models (the 775 Amp controller convinced me to push my financials to the limit) that when I saw the 550A sticker, I had a mini nervous breakdown.
And in my frantic state, I didn't even see the R in engraving on top of the actually motor type numbers.
I can assure you too that I am using extreme care and common sense as an inexperienced technician when it comes to EVs and when carefully opening up some covers etc...
I wouldn't even dare to come close to any open contacts of the obvious high voltage and capable of high amperage components.
I am familiar with high electrical energy areas on my machine tools, but am aware that vehicle motor control is a different animal and needs extra caution.
Thanks again for this reassuring post.
I did get a message from my dealer too who forwarded a reply from Zero directly, they didn't reveal from whom it came though.
Sorry for disturbing the electrical peace here :-X
Rider7
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I think also taht the 550A rating is battery current while the 775a is Phase current..
Think about it.. if it would draw 775A from the battery (witch should keep about 102V under full load) than you guys should have about 79kW ( over 100hp power into the controller) witch is not.
Some more realistic data that also correlate with the 550A is that the MY17 SR are rated 52kW at the wheel ( 102v x 550A) = 56kW less eff loss = probably that 52kW at the wheel...
some controlelr manufacture rate their controlelr with phase current while some otehr rate with battery current.
You need to understand the diff between both guys.
Just remind that phase current give you the torque... and battery current give you up to how fast you can sustain it ( torque x rpm = power)
Also the SAE rating has nothing to do with maximum power like the Zero and many motorcycle manufacture rate their engine. the 2016 SR is 16kW because this is the CONTINUOUS power it can sustain at a stabilized temperature without overheating.
This is also why Zero can rate their motorcycle for a continuous max speed they can sustain... ex: 80mph max continuous speed that would require 16kW... etc
Doc
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Wow... Arron C. is the POC for tech issues on the forums?
I was a quality engineer at Zero for a year.
MSEE with 15 years of Ebike madness experience.
Currently we are building Sevcon Based power systems that are very similar to what you see on a Zero.... so all things Sevcon are on our radar.
If I can help in any way let me know.
Can you send more pics of the 4.5 controller?
It is certainly true that the 80V controllers run up to 116V... but I would be very surprised to see gen 4 markings on a gen 4.5 controller unless it was an early release for Zero (which may be.. and if so.. I want one)
thanks,
-methods
P.S. Drill holes in your motor Doc style... :-)
See pics here
www.SchindlerEngineering.com (http://www.SchindlerEngineering.com)
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Old title: "HELP !!!!!"
New title: "Question about label on 2017 Zero Motorcycles motor and Sevcon controller"
Done.
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On the subject of power....
P =V*I
P = I^2*R
P = V^2/R
So... assuming our motor can handle the continuous inefficiency - either by oil or air cooling... what does it REALLY MEAN to have 775 amps running?
Well..
Assuming they are using 2AWG cables that is about 160uOhms a foot
I^2*R should calculate out to 100Watts of power being dissipated in a foot of the cabling if we were to run that continuous.
(Which of course we are not - its a burst or peak rating)
As for losses... thats not really noticeable in performance... but as for heating, connectors, cabling, cabling weight, ... eh... bad news.
Big Picture the way to make power is with Voltage - not current.
If we want to scale the pack voltage needs to go up, current needs to go down, and then the power to weight ratio and overall performance will greatly improve.
Motorcycle companies that can deal with this will lead the pack.
Major issues are EMI.... noise... safety... corrosion...
Problems with aerodynamics go up with the cube of speed
Problems with power goes up with the square of current
We are converging on a natural limit... that is... unless you want to run wires the size of coke cans.
I want to run 100hp continuous.... then 200hp
The Biff motor can do a hell of a lot more with forced cooling.
The R motors are sealed and oil cooled which is rad - but there are a lot of the older motors kicking around
Ok - thats my bed time 2nd post rant.
Cheers.
-methods
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...Big Picture the way to make power is with Voltage - not current.
If we want to scale the pack voltage needs to go up, current needs to go down, and then the power to weight ratio and overall performance will greatly improve.
Motorcycle companies that can deal with this will lead the pack.
Major issues are EMI.... noise... safety... corrosion...
...
Apparently (the things I hear in strange company of e-moto enthusiasts) I'm understanding that electronics components today which can integrate with higher voltages are much more wasteful of energy. Also that Sevcon is kind of ... I don't know... "comfortable" with their present design, and that is attractive to Zero Motorcycles, they stay with Sevcon and not yet another controller manufacturer.
Zero makes incremental improvements 2013+ and remains an accessible (the only for 2018?) choice of an e-moto bike with 100mi+ rideable range on a charge. There is plenty of room in aftermarket for better charging and component upgrades but these things are not sensible for a small manufacturer to design directly into a global e-moto market. I'm hopeful to see future "incremental improvements" which widen the depth of ability for aftermarket to integrate with their 2013+ platform, while the vehicles themselves continue to drive down in cost and become closer to mass manufacture.
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Good points.
I usually push for the most insane power possible as that teaches us the most, exposes the most problems, drives the market in the right direction, and allows us to fall back into something with margin. Think racing teams for major manufacturers.
To stay on topic... which was identifying parts... I have a good one to share:
Tonight I was picking up what I thought was a "Stock" 2013 DS.... :D
(http://2013SF019.jpg)
My task was to get the batteries swapped, play with it for a while, then take it over to Calfee Design to see how we could make it interesting.
Now I have watched a lot of bikes go down the line... so they all sort of look the same to me. S, SR, FX - whatever... I cant afford any of them so ... all the same to me right?
First I notice the color - SR colors. SR badge. Fancy rims.. think to myself "hmmm.. somebody must have dug through the blems bin and swapped their plastics"
So I take it for a ride around the block before strapping it up.
"Hmmm... loud squealing sound at wide open throttle. Never heard that before... wtf?"
I had not gone over the bike so I was a bit nervous... never know what the last guy did to it.. or forgot to do... but I slammed on the brakes and blipped WOT a couple times and it dint burst into flames or throw me over the bars... so I took a second lap.
On the second lap, coming off of a stop sign turning right I pitched the rear end all the way out.
Thinking "wtf?"
It straightened right out and I thought nothing more of it.
Most of the Zero's I have ridden have been modified in some way or another by various nefarious characters. To tell the truth.... I dont even know if I have ever ridden a stock bike.
So - back on topic... I take a closer look at the bike
Notice some weird black tape on the battery box
Notice... eh... what motor is that ;D (see pic)
What long heat sink is that?
(http://2013SF026.jpg)
Sweet.
Got me again guys.
Love it when someone puts me on something I expect to be stock and it turns out to be highly modified.
-methods
P.S. I do not yet know how to upload and then embed pics on this forum. I think posts are much more enjoyable to read with the pics inline...
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That is a race-modified bike for sure. No one opens the end of their motor unless they need more heat dissipation for performance.
You're in the Monterey area? There are a bunch of local Zero tinkerers since this is Zero's back yard. Some of us in the area could visit to help you assess what you want to do.
Loss of traction is a known issue FWIW: http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Common_Problems#Loss_of_Traction (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Common_Problems#Loss_of_Traction)
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I thought the loss of traction was a good thing :)
I got the story on the bike and motor.
We have it over at Calfee Design now and we are considering experimenting with some aesthetics.
This one already has a size 6 and vented motor... so other than suspension... not much to do for performance.
It needs carbon fiber.
Fast Charging
Reverse
Different kick stand
First Ride Impressions:
Plenty of power for a normal person. I was nervous riding it at first as it was assembled by someone I dont know... but I got comfortable. Only so many parts can fall off right??
Power falls off on the straight away under WOT.
I enjoy acceleration more than speed - so this is perfect.
Maybe more torque would be nice.
As for tinkerers... I have heard that there are a few around here...
-methods
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I got the story on the bike and motor.
We have it over at Calfee Design now and we are considering experimenting with some aesthetics.
This one already has a size 6 and vented motor... so other than suspension... not much to do for performance.
It needs carbon fiber.
Fast Charging
Reverse
Different kick stand
First Ride Impressions:
Plenty of power for a normal person. I was nervous riding it at first as it was assembled by someone I dont know... but I got comfortable. Only so many parts can fall off right??
Thankfully, Zeros are pretty simple and sturdy.
Power falls off on the straight away under WOT.
I enjoy acceleration more than speed - so this is perfect.
Maybe more torque would be nice.
As for tinkerers... I have heard that there are a few around here...
The 2013 model has a very limited instrument cluster (generic Koso gauge), so it won't give much indication while riding. There's an OBD dongle you can buy that will give you data if you set it up with a mobile device or laptop:
https://hollywoodelectrics.com/product/diginow-data-reaper-dongle/ (https://hollywoodelectrics.com/product/diginow-data-reaper-dongle/)
I think your power dropoff is due to overheating, which affects pre-2016 Zero motors.
Definitely talk to Harlan at Hollywood Electrics. They have worked with carbon fiber and Zero race bikes more than anyone else:
https://hollywoodelectrics.com/product-category/performance-products/ (https://hollywoodelectrics.com/product-category/performance-products/)
Check the unofficial manual just in case it helps you figure out some details about the bike. The information isn't as deep as you'll need, but broad:
http://zeromanual.com/ (http://zeromanual.com/)
Also look up "EVTricity" on this forum, who races a 2014SR in Australia and has made many mods.
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Awesome tips.
Glad you are supporting the Zero platform.
The lack of torque appears in the DCF as a thrust tapering vs RPM... I am nowhere near overheat yet. Just a WOT pull on cold motor from a dead stop on a straight away. Note - I am only looking for the absolute limit of how much the copper and magnets can put out (saturation) vs thermal dT/dt. (how fast it heats up)
With this motor (probably machined by Harlin) I am certain that we can turn up the current in the window above 3000rpm. The stock zero bikes are tuned for OEM performance... where what I want is burst performance... that will allow us to assess cooling needs for "other applications" which require a higher continuous power rating.
Picture a boat plowing full speed to get out of a nasty set of waves... or an airplane taking off in a bad wind with too much load.
Absolute max burst thrust for 30 seconds followed by a cooling period.
ok - OT... I will take it to another thread.
thanks,
-methods
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Picture a boat plowing full speed to get out of a nasty set of waves... or an airplane taking off in a bad wind with too much load.
Absolute max burst thrust for 30 seconds followed by a cooling period.
I think I've guessed exactly what project you're talking about - definitely make a new thread.
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I realize this is a really old thread, but can anyone tell me where that 775 amp number started? I can't find any documentation other than this forum post that claims the Gen4 size 6 80V controller is capable of a peak output of 775 amps. According to what is now BorgWarner's manual, the 550-amp 80V controllers are good for a 10-second 660-amp boost. They even provide a current versus time derating curve showing a boost limit of 20% over the peak (550A) number.
I have a 2021 model, and the DVT software shows that it is an 80V 580-amp unit. I can't even find supporting documentation for a unit with that peak current, but it's written into the firmware of the controller. I'm referring to the controller description, not the programmed phase current limit. But if the manual's 20% over peak number is consistent, that would put even my controller's boost current at 696 amps.
Has anyone come across any official documentation indicating these later Gen4 size 6 80V units are good for more than 660 amps boost current?