ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: inhibernation on November 13, 2018, 09:42:02 AM
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I may be rebuilding a 40-year-old bike in the living room, but I'm still learning the intricacies of EM's.
(https://i.imgur.com/Outt68Jh.jpg)
I'd forgotten to ask the question at purchase (dealer seemed quite new to Zeros), but have been wondering what battery degradation over time would look like on my Zero. Visible? (SOC on dash decreasing over time) Or invisible? (SOC always 100%, but actual range decreasing)
It's a 2016 DSR demo purchased May 2017 with 600mi. For the first few months, it would charge to 100%.
Since then, the SOC would decrease by slightly more than 1% per month. By 3,000mi, it would charge to 92%.
At 5,000mi now, it'll charge to 85% and if I re-plug it in, it'll click on and off for 30min to get to 86%. Starting about 500mi ago, when it's finished charging, the entire the dash will start flashing on and off with the ABS being consistent (below).
I've been completely satisfied with the performance of the bike on the road, but this charging behavior is unusual, right?. The commute is only 12mi round trip, so I haven't really evaluated whether total true range has changed. Checked the error codes: 25, 45, 48, 49, 45 go to 0000 once the kickstand's up; seems good.
This is today's result, re-plugged once and still connected to wall charger:
(https://i.imgur.com/3JMcDvWl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/NUCjdAvl.jpg)
And how it looks when charged. The time-to-charge timer seems to still expect a 100% goal, but with mine quitting at 85% now, it'll stop 30-90min earlier than that time and start flashing like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/LtdAbxq.gif)
What does the community think? Do I need to see a dealer even though it's driving great?
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In this case, it would be better if you gave the voltages when it's fully charged. It should be about 116.5 VDC. Get the Zero Voltage app (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bitshape.zero_voltage&hl=en_US) and see what it says your voltage is at that full 86% SOC.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Its either an AMP HOUR bug in the code or your charger is dieing which is a common issue.
If it is the AMP HOUR bug you can tell with the Zero voltage app from the google play store. A firmware upgrade should fix it now.
If your charger is crapping out, you have to replace it with something.
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The lack of exclamation points so far is reassuring. Sounds like I may not be able to trust the display SOC.
Until I get the app setup, can I trust the emailed logs?
Looks like 115.9V @ 85%.
(https://i.imgur.com/VT6GyBoh.png)
Despite reading through the entire official and unofficial manuals, I'm uncertain whether I can trust when the Zero app says the firmware is up to date on these 2016 models. It gives no actual numbers to work with. Does the bike actually talk farther than the app on my phone to know?
Thanks!
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The lack of exclamation points so far is reassuring. Sounds like I may not be able to trust the display SOC.
WTF, that is not normal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o
But seriously, the thread http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6034.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6034.0) is about a 2016 SR with similar symptoms, and contains an mp4 video showing the same LCD display flashing, which appears to indicate a charger issue.
As the Unofficial Manual describes it:
Entire Display Flashes
If the dash display in its entirety is flashing after keying the bike on, this indicates an onboard charger self-test failure.
Key the bike off and wait for a few seconds and retry, and it should clear.
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FWIW, my 2016 S had a little over 17,000 miles when it was totaled in an accident earlier this year. It always charged to 100% and I never noticed any drop in range.
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Over the years I have had a few bikes that didn’t run right. It is amazing what contact cleaner and dielectric grease, silicon can do.
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The lack of exclamation points so far is reassuring. Sounds like I may not be able to trust the display SOC.
Until I get the app setup, can I trust the emailed logs?
Looks like 115.9V @ 85%.
(https://i.imgur.com/VT6GyBoh.png)
Despite reading through the entire official and unofficial manuals, I'm uncertain whether I can trust when the Zero app says the firmware is up to date on these 2016 models. It gives no actual numbers to work with. Does the bike actually talk farther than the app on my phone to know?
Thanks!
The firmware version number can be found in the header of the logs.
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Logs show something odd. I'm sure Zero CS will see it and reccomend the right steps to take. Looks like a firmware upgrade is in order.
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Thank you everyone for the input.
Dealer can't fit me in till the end of the month. His prescription until then, since I pull the cord everytime it's charged per Zero rec's, is to leave it plugged in for a few days. I don't imagine that helping the 15 month percentage decline, and it's going to keep the dash flashing like that for days (is there such thing as screen burn on these displays?). Also reset the BMS.
Anyway, still love the bike.
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Thank you everyone for the input.
Dealer can't fit me in till the end of the month. His prescription until then, since I pull the cord everytime it's charged per Zero rec's, is to leave it plugged in for a few days. I don't imagine that helping the 15 month percentage decline, and it's going to keep the dash flashing like that for days (is there such thing as screen burn on these displays?). Also reset the BMS.
Anyway, still love the bike.
My daughter's 2014 S w/PT stops charging at 92%. But if she leaves it plugged in for a week, it will slowly increase each day and eventually show 100% on the dash.
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UPDATE: In the last month, it's lost another 2% of battery capacity (83% on dash). Not long after the dealer pulled the logs, he informed me that Zero would be sending a replacement battery. When I asked for more details, he passed along that "[the] Monolith shows signs of aging and 200mV imbalance" but that he'd have to try and get any further explanation from Zero in the next few days. It's supposed to be shipping this week and will likely be going under the knife this month.
While not catastrophic in the least, I'm disappointed there's such a significant failure at 5,000 mi, glad that there's a solution in the works, and anxious about a very competent, but largely ICE, dealer dismantling this bike. Here's to hoping that aside from righty-tighty/lefty-loosy on a hundred fasteners, a new monolith should be relatively plug-and-play!
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Interesting. Current knowledge says that it's a charger self-test failure. Either that is wrong, or the charger self-tests are inappropriately sensitive to minor battery health issues.
Entire Display Flashes
If the dash display in its entirety is flashing after keying the bike on, this indicates an onboard charger self-test failure.
Key the bike off and wait for a few seconds and retry, and it should clear.
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Hey, if you want, shoot me an email at brandon@diginow.it
I can run a test on your bike to give you spome real info. I doubt that your battery is really degraded that much, but we have actual tests for this now and if needed can get it taken care of for you.
The only sad part is that we will either have to send you the parts for the test ~$120 shipping if on the east coast, then if anything needs fixing you would have to take it to the dealer. Or shippping the bike to us, i think around $300-500 shipping and then we can test and if needed fix anything here.
Like I said though, I doubt you have a 2016 which truely has an 83% battery so we could get it fixed up for you quickly if I am correct. If you did have a bad battery, it may take a couple months to fix, but we can do it.
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Interesting. Current knowledge says that it's a charger self-test failure. Either that is wrong, or the charger self-tests are inappropriately sensitive to minor battery health issues.
Entire Display Flashes
If the dash display in its entirety is flashing after keying the bike on, this indicates an onboard charger self-test failure.
Key the bike off and wait for a few seconds and retry, and it should clear.
To clarify, the dash only flashes crazily like that when it's plugged in and the charge is complete. Like it trips up at the end and freaks out. As soon as I unplug the bike, it goes to normal-blank and behaves normal whenever keyed on.
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Hey, if you want, shoot me an email at brandon@diginow.it
I can run a test on your bike to give you spome real info. I doubt that your battery is really degraded that much, but we have actual tests for this now and if needed can get it taken care of for you.
The only sad part is that we will either have to send you the parts for the test ~$120 shipping if on the east coast, then if anything needs fixing you would have to take it to the dealer. Or shippping the bike to us, i think around $300-500 shipping and then we can test and if needed fix anything here.
Like I said though, I doubt you have a 2016 which truely has an 83% battery so we could get it fixed up for you quickly if I am correct. If you did have a bad battery, it may take a couple months to fix, but we can do it.
I really appreciate that offer, Brandon. I've been keeping an eye on your pursuits here while saving up for further bike investments.
I'm up in Seattle, but the new monolith has arrived at the dealer and I agreed to drop the bike off this Friday. While I'm aware Zero's customer service is far from transparent, my initial instinct is to trust that they wouldn't send out, under warranty, what I assume is the most expensive component of the DSR unless they have a solid rationale. Or, they're just grasping at straws.
Since they're offering it under warranty, I'm willing to give them a shot at fixing their bike; will make other transportation arrangements if the surgery takes longer than expected.
However, I assume the risk here is that adding a good battery to a bad charger is dangerous in the same way that a bad alternator in my truck will destroy any new battery I keep throwing into it. ??
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The trouble with electric vehicles is that different issues can look similar. And we're working with incomplete information. It sounds to me like either the charger is unable to get to sufficient voltage to bring the battery to 100%, or the battery cannot get to 100%.
The voltage charging stops at should be pretty visible in the logs. When they reviewed them, they probably have something that tells them why the charger stopped charging. It'd be pretty clear if the charger wasn't working.
If there's a battery issue in which the impedance of certain cells increases over time, then the battery imbalance will increase and stop charging. Maybe the charger cannot charge once one cell hits its max voltage, even if other battery cells are not keeping up. There's usually a limited ability to transfer power between cells, but it's hard to do it with large currents or impedance. My RC plane's lipo batteries did the same thing when one of them started to fail.
At my work, battery capacity is based on the lowest cell's voltage. I don't know if Zero does the same, but you can see in those logs that they're adjusting the capacity of the battery based on that low cell voltage.
In short, I think they have the right idea. And they should have sufficient safety systems to prevent a bad charger from damaging the battery anyway.
Let us know how it goes.
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Reguardless what the issue is or is not, Zero sent you a new monolith which is AWESOME! Congrats dude, Aaron sent you a rocking upgrade! Happy holidays buddy!!
Sick customer service there!
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Aaaand she's back!
(https://i.imgur.com/GkyxDqkh.jpg)
Big, big thanks to Zero for sending a new monolith and to Triumph of Seattle for their excellent service dept and brand support. (They're not even the dealer I bought it from.) I'd planned on this fix being one helluva slog, maybe even getting some pushback from OEM or dealer, but instead the process was as smooth as could be.
It seems neither could pin down whether there was a physical battery corruption causing the degradation or the firmware and charging damaging it, but that lump is gone now.
Newest firmware. New 14.4 battery with a fresh warranty in this 2016 13.0 bike and I'm seeing a 100% SOC for the first time since 2017!
And thanks to the community here! I hope no one in the future needs to find this thread helpful.
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Unrelated, but I was just perusing this thread and I must say that's a really nice photograph. Carry on.
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I really like the headlight and windshield combo
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Back on the subject of battery degradation: I read an article in my newspaper this weekend regarding Prius battery longevity. One owner said that his Prius battery finally died after driving 355,000 miles, another Prius owner reported driving 250,000 miles before replacing his car due to the catalytic converter going bad, which had a $3,000 replacement cost. Someone else owned a Lexus RX400h and it is still going strong after 202,000 miles. Another person reported that his Prius has 344,500 miles on the original batteries.
Of course, none of these reports come close to the 455,000 miles that Zero says is the life of my Zero S with PT's batteries. ::) Eat your hearts out Prius owners. ;)
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another Leaf owner reported driving 250,000 miles before replacing his car due to the catalytic converter going bad, which had a $3,000 replacement cost.
Catalytic converter on a Leaf????
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another Leaf owner reported driving 250,000 miles before replacing his car due to the catalytic converter going bad, which had a $3,000 replacement cost.
Catalytic converter on a Leaf????
Oops, I meant to say that article was about Prius batteries. :-[ Thanks for catching that embarrassing mistake. I must have been thinking about wishing the leaves would finally fall off of my fruit trees. ::) I had better go back and modify my post a bit. Still, you get the idea. ;)