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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: stevenh on April 03, 2016, 11:47:54 PM
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I was wondering what folks might be using for Custom settings? I have my torque dialed back a bit to 80% and 100% regen on both normal and breaking. Has anyone had issue with 100% regen causing a loss of traction when decelerating in wet conditions?
Man I love riding this thing (DSR purchased last month).
Steve
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My custom setting is the factory default custom setting. It seems perfect to me as is so I have never felt the need to change it. I have full acceleration and enough regen to feel like compression so I've been a happy camper since day one.
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I have tried everything over the past two years and I have decided that 100% power and 0% regen when the throttle is closed and 100% regen when the brake lever is activated. That is the best combination for me in all the types of riding that I do.
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I have tried everything over the past two years and I have decided that 100% power and 0% regen is the best combination for me in all the types of riding that I do.
I second this ... but add a variable regen clutch in the mix :D
There have been times when it seemed like I coasted for a mile on relatively flat land 0_0
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I usually go 75% acceleration and 100% regent on my SR.
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My custom, still tuning, 100% regen/braking and I dialed down the top speed seems to tighten up the throttle. I like it for the dirt roads I hit. I generally don't want to be going that fast.
I have used my custom mode in the rain and through mud. On mud and loose ground I could see the wheel skipping a bit. On paved road no issue, though I suspect the 100% regen is going to be tough on that belt and is why it's so solid for wheel contact.
Congrats DSR here too! It is pretty awesome!
Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
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I have everything maxed out. I like the full regen, it feels like proper engine braking. Also saves me using the brakes so much. Traction isn't a problem as it's only a fraction of the torque you get when accelerating.
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75% torque, 6% regen. The bike's next owner can rest assured that I, at least never rode it at 100% torque.
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If I could put it to 250% torque, I would.
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At the moment, it's set to 80% torque, 80% regen and 80mph top speed. I think I'm going to up the regen to 100% but leave the rest where they are.
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You guys do understand that the most efficient way to ride is by coasting when possible, right? Regenerative braking wastes at least 50% of the energy available as waste heat. Coasting with little or no regen is best for all but stop and go or 'stop and slow' riding. If you are adding all that regen to make use of the brake less necessary, that I understand. If you are trying for range, I suggest you try 0%-10% throttle regen.
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You guys do understand that the most efficient way to ride is by coasting when possible, right? Regenerative braking wastes at least 50% of the energy available as waste heat. Coasting with little or no regen is best for all but stop and go or 'stop and slow' riding. If you are adding all that regen to make use of the brake less necessary, that I understand. If you are trying for range, I suggest you try 0%-10% throttle regen.
What if we just want to go fast and do wheelies?
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What I didn't like about having regen when I was off-throttle and not braking was that I would typically have to turn the throttle back on and off to maintain an even speed while coasting down a modest grade. Just having the normal off-power drag was enough retardation for the terrain where I ride. However, if I rode (heaven forbid) in a city like San Francisco with a lot of steep hills, 100% regen on closed throttle would likely work out the best. In my experience, you should try different combinations of custom settings to discover what works best for you in your type of riding. :) No one setting works for everyone and it is always fun to experiment. ;)
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I think it would be a really cool firmware upgrade to allow a mode where backing off the throttle increases the regen from 0 to 100%. I have read that other electrics use this approach. It allows you to coast when you want by keeping a neutral throttle and also lets you "break" by just backing further off the throttle. Seems logical to me. I'm not sure why Zero has not taken this approach.
Steve
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I think it would be a really cool firmware upgrade to allow a mode where backing off the throttle increases the regen from 0 to 100%. I have read that other electrics use this approach. It allows you to coast when you want by keeping a neutral throttle and also lets you "break" by just backing further off the throttle. Seems logical to me. I'm not sure why Zero has not taken this approach.
Steve
That is the system that Vectrix developed and used on their scooters, I suspect that they probably have a patent on the design.
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That is the system that Vectrix developed and used on their scooters, I suspect that they probably have a patent on the design.
IIRC, it's the same system on the Lightning. At least, according to the episode of Jay Leno's Garage I found on YouTube.
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I think it would be a really cool firmware upgrade to allow a mode where backing off the throttle increases the regen from 0 to 100%. I have read that other electrics use this approach. It allows you to coast when you want by keeping a neutral throttle and also lets you "break" by just backing further off the throttle. Seems logical to me. I'm not sure why Zero has not taken this approach.
Steve
I've thought about this too and i think it would be a great approach if you could have progressive regeneration by rolling the throttle forward. Seems like it would save on brakes, trick would be getting on the brake lever while your rolling the throttle forward in which case your idea sounds pretty good unless you tied both brakes to the foot lever.
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Question to people riding with 100% regen on brake.
I tried this and it seems like a slight tap of the brake level will immediately brake hard with the rear.
Aren't there cases where you want to brake lightly?
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I am running 100% regen when my front brake lever is moved. The regen comes on before the front brake is operated and slows the bike down slowly. If I want to brake faster, I just put more pressure on the brake lever until the brake pads are doing their job and then my bike slows normally. It works just fine for me. :)
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I was wondering what folks might be using for Custom settings? I have my torque dialed back a bit to 80% and 100% regen on both normal and breaking. Has anyone had issue with 100% regen causing a loss of traction when decelerating in wet conditions?
Man I love riding this thing (DSR purchased last month).
Steve
On my 2015 SR i currently i have dialed in something close to
6% regen
66% brake regen
66% torque
maximum speed
This seems nice for commuting after having had my licence for a week now- a little more response than eco, but very controllable and relatively forgiving throttle response.
I tried 100% brake regen and 0 throttle of regen- but that seemed too jerky for my taste in dense traffic & splitting lanes. I'd like to regen as much as possible when braking, but to avoid getting rear ended i figured id like to be able to go in soft. I'm pondering if it would be nice if the brake regen would gradually increase from 50% to 100% over 3-5 seconds or so.
I don't see any particular reason for my own sake to reduce the maximum speed- it is not likely that i will reach maximum on the roads i travel, but if i like to have the freedom of choosing. What would be nice would be having 45km/h as a limit to be allowed to practice as a moped before i got my license.. :P
:)
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I still have my custom settings at around 70% power, 60% regen, 100% brake regen, 102mph top speed. At first I tried 0% regen with 100% brake regen, but I did not like how abruptly the brake regen kicks in this way.
After approximately 500 miles now since buying my SR, I think I might increase the power to 100% or close. I find myself reaching for the Sport" mode more often lately, but I like more regen on braking that I can get with custom.
I don't think new-ish riders should use over 65-70% power on an SR for at least several hundred miles. I think it takes some time for the brain to develop a feel about how fast the SR will be going after just a couple of seconds of full acceleration, and might not be able to appreciate how long it will take to slow down or stop. Or to take a corner at higher speed might be more than a new rider could handle. I've gotten surprised a few times, but I think I've adjusted enough now to have a good feel for the bike. With such quickly accelerating bike I had to learn to look way farther ahead than I have to look in my sluggish car...
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mine is an eco-eco mode + letting someone else test ride mode.
i have it set at 40% MAX torque and HP, top speed limited to 60 MPH, both regen's @ 100%.
with this i get roughly 15% more range, never use the brakes in traffic, and still have enough power to shoot most gaps. nice when i know/worry about range.
i would love to set it to zero % regen and just coast silently, but the pay back for the braking is worth it if doing anything other than racing or sneakin gup on people.
laters,
laramie ;)
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I think it would be a really cool firmware upgrade to allow a mode where backing off the throttle increases the regen from 0 to 100%. I have read that other electrics use this approach. It allows you to coast when you want by keeping a neutral throttle and also lets you "break" by just backing further off the throttle. Seems logical to me. I'm not sure why Zero has not taken this approach.
Steve
According to the owner's manual for my 2016 S, that's EXACTLY what Zero is doing. You only get regen when you completely close the throttle. Holding the throttle partially open allows you to coast. From experience, that seems to be what is happening. I have 100% regen set for my custom setting, and I only see (and feel) it happening when I completely close the throttle. If I hold it even a little open, it just coasts.
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2014 Zero S: I've turned brake regen to zero because I don't like the jerky response. I have motor regen at 30% which is a good compromise as far as coasting--usually I can see red lights ahead and slow down slowly without having to brake until I get close; with the motor regen at 100% it would slow down too fast.
Originally I thought having motor regen at 100% would best mimic an ICE bike, but then to maintain the same speed you have to fine tune the throttle opening. I like having less drag and more coasting, and rolling through turns is smoother and easier.
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2014 Zero S: I've turned brake regen to zero because I don't like the jerky response. ...
I get jerky response when I start at the top of a hill with a full charge. My solution is to switch to sport mode until it reads 99%, which seems to give it enough headroom on the charge to prevent it from pulsing.
It doesn't seem to be as bad since I did the 4000 mile service recently. That included a ($50) firmware update.
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FWIW, my ICE bikes slow down a HELL of a lot quicker than my Zero (even at full regen) when I roll off the throttle.
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FWIW, my ICE bikes slow down a HELL of a lot quicker than my Zero (even at full regen) when I roll off the throttle.
ICE engine braking is best done at low RPMs, though, where you're not stressing it (probably clutch plates mainly) as much. I try to use a higher gear.
After a while, I've gotten used to the 0-100% regen step using the brake lever. Linearity would be nice, and hopefully I can achieve that soon (finally).
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FWIW, my ICE bikes slow down a HELL of a lot quicker than my Zero (even at full regen) when I roll off the throttle.
ICE engine braking is best done at low RPMs, though, where you're not stressing it (probably clutch plates mainly) as much. I try to use a higher gear.
After a while, I've gotten used to the 0-100% regen step using the brake lever. Linearity would be nice, and hopefully I can achieve that soon (finally).
Take Reg Pridmore's C.L.A.S.S. for a full demonstration of what he calls "TM" (Throttle Management). Run in a LOWER gear to keep the revs up (most people are afraid of getting anywhere near redline, but you won't break the engine running it there). Don't just CHOP the throttle but roll it on and off. You can easily negotiate most race tracks at a surprising rate of speed without ever touching the brakes this way, and it DOESN'T stress the driveline at all. Again, the secret is SMOOTH operation.
I carry that same philosophy over to my Zero and it's working just fine.
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FWIW, my ICE bikes slow down a HELL of a lot quicker than my Zero (even at full regen) when I roll off the throttle.
ICE engine braking is best done at low RPMs, though, where you're not stressing it (probably clutch plates mainly) as much. I try to use a higher gear.
After a while, I've gotten used to the 0-100% regen step using the brake lever. Linearity would be nice, and hopefully I can achieve that soon (finally).
meanwhile I clutch up wheelies, match rev downshift on the street to slow, use a slipper clutch for the track, etc..
I still get 80k miles to a clutch (unless its a ducati)... And then I just change the clutch.
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Literally: different strokes for different folks.
I'm comfortable riding a V-Strom which gets cruising torque from 2800-3300 RPMs. I've put 55k miles on my first V-Strom, 16k on my second, and probably 15k on a small collection of gas bikes. I ride very smooth and have worked out my clutch and throttle technique and can power shift as I feel appropriate. I ride dirt roads, not race tracks, and I like taking it easy while being focused. I suppose I subscribe to the "Total Control" school of thought, (casual?) adventure touring techniques, and David Hough's series.
I think we both know what we're doing, but have different goals. I'll certainly replace my "best" comment with "easily". No one makes you rev high or low - you do it there because you like it that way for whatever your riding priorities are.
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FWIW, my ICE bikes slow down a HELL of a lot quicker than my Zero (even at full regen) when I roll off the throttle.
ICE engine braking is best done at low RPMs, though, where you're not stressing it (probably clutch plates mainly) as much. I try to use a higher gear.
After a while, I've gotten used to the 0-100% regen step using the brake lever. Linearity would be nice, and hopefully I can achieve that soon (finally).
meanwhile I clutch up wheelies, match rev downshift on the street to slow, use a slipper clutch for the track, etc..
I still get 80k miles to a clutch (unless its a ducati)... And then I just change the clutch.
I replaced my first clutch on my K1200LT at 160,000 miles. The new one has 40,000 on it now. I don't think I'm hard on clutches at all. ;)
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Earlier in the thread I wrote my custom settings were at about 60% no-brake regen and 100% brake regen. Well, I've come to a conclusion I prefer small or no regen without the brake and 100% brake regen. The reason is I noticed that I had started to rely on no-brake regen too much to slow me down. So I'm not even grabbing the brake to be ready to use it if the situation changes and I would also need to use the brake. Unfortunately, the good level of no-brake regen resulted in me being lazy and not getting my fingers around the brake lever to be ready instantly to use it and before I need to use it. So when I do need to use the brake it takes a split second longer to grab it.
With low no-brake regen setting, I am forced to gently squeeze the brake to intentionally start using brake regen. This way my fingers/foot are ready to apply the brake more if needed. Plus, I always get my brake light to shine as soon as I initiate brake regen, so folks behind me are not surprised by me slowing down through regen only. I think this is a safer practice than not being ready to apply the brakes and not alerting folks behind me as is the case with big no-brake regen.
With 6% no-brake regen, the 100% brake regen phase seems reasonably smooth to engage. I might try 0% again, something I did not like initially due to the somewhat abrupt initiation of brake regen in this case - my sensitivity to this might have changed though since the last time I tried this setting, so I'll report back if that is the case.
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Earlier in the thread I wrote my custom settings were at about 60% no-brake regen and 100% brake regen. Well, I've come to a conclusion I prefer small or no regen without the brake and 100% brake regen. The reason is I noticed that I had started to rely on no-brake regen too much to slow me down. So I'm not even grabbing the brake to be ready to use it if the situation changes and I would also need to use the brake. Unfortunately, the good level of no-brake regen resulted in me being lazy and not getting my fingers around the brake lever to be ready instantly to use it and before I need to use it. So when I do need to use the brake it takes a split second longer to grab it.
With low no-brake regen setting, I am forced to gently squeeze the brake to intentionally start using brake regen. This way my fingers/foot are ready to apply the brake more if needed. Plus, I always get my brake light to shine as soon as I initiate brake regen, so folks behind me are not surprised by me slowing down through regen only. I think this is a safer practice than not being ready to apply the brakes and not alerting folks behind me as is the case with big no-brake regen.
With 6% no-brake regen, the 100% brake regen phase seems reasonably smooth to engage. I might try 0% again, something I did not like initially due to the somewhat abrupt initiation of brake regen in this case - my sensitivity to this might have changed though since the last time I tried this setting, so I'll report back if that is the case.
I've done the same. I was running 100% regen on no-brake and brake. I've moved to 0% regen on no-brake and 100% on brake. As soon as I made the change to 0%, I noticed how much I had begun to rely on the regen breaking (not a good thing).
Steve
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I've done the same. I was running 100% regen on no-brake and brake. I've moved to 0% regen on no-brake and 100% on brake. As soon as I made the change to 0%, I noticed how much I had begun to rely on the regen breaking (not a good thing).
Steve
why do you consider it not a good thing?
its free power back into the battery.
the bike is more stable when its under active acceleration or deceleration, instead of coasting.
it makes descents into charging helpers.
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While I have switched to a 0% regen / 100% brake regen setting, it is definitely not a bad thing to have regen by default - it makes the bike slow down earlier once you let go of throttle, which makes some difference in stopping distance before coming onto the brakes.
I mean, if you literally avoided using your brakes, that would be "not a good thing". But early regen is safer.
For why I switched, I just realized that I much prefer switching regen with a finger-touch to get a brake signal. It's a tradeoff.
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While I have switched to a 0% regen / 100% brake regen setting, it is definitely not a bad thing to have regen by default - it makes the bike slow down earlier once you let go of throttle, which makes some difference in stopping distance before coming onto the brakes.
I mean, if you literally avoided using your brakes, that would be "not a good thing". But early regen is safer.
For why I switched, I just realized that I much prefer switching regen with a finger-touch to get a brake signal. It's a tradeoff.
The "Not a Good Thing" part was my not covering the brake(s) when I probably should have been since I got used to the regen breaking.
Steve
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I set my custom mode to :
30% torque
67MPH top speed
100% regen on zero throttle
I use regen to save on the brakes a bit, and capping at 67MPH allows me to get to/from work without burning off all my charge. When I leave it in custom the whole time, I usually have about 30% remaining on a high-traffic day. When I go home, I flip into sport mode when I hit the last 10 miles that are all 3-lane slab. I can safely burn off about 15-20% of my charge on that leg and get home with 5-10% SOC. That new upside-down Chinese windscreen makes a big difference, I reckon. I think I can save ~5% charge on that 70-80MPH leg by compressing behind the windscreen.
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Anyone know what the settings on the sport and eco mode are? I would like to try the sport torque with the eco regen on my custom mode.
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I don't know the numbers for "sport", but power should be 100%, no braking regen feels less than eco (probably 50% at best), and brake regen is less than 100%, probably 75% or less. That's just by feel on my SR. My guess is that Zero did not maximize regen on sport mode with the idea that if they did, they'd overstress the battery and motor to do too much regen during spirited driving, causing things to overheat, plus the bike is smoother with less regen.
I'm at 1,500 miles now (only 1,000 are mine) and I just switched my custom to 100% power, 0 regen, 100% brake regen. Seems the most convenient setting as I can coast if I need to take my hands off the handlebars, yet still have full regen if I want it. And I am now comfortable with having full power at my disposal, so unless it is slippery, I no longer feel the need to set reduced power in custom...
Anyone know what the settings on the sport and eco mode are? I would like to try the sport torque with the eco regen on my custom mode.
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I don't know the numbers for "sport", but power should be 100%, no braking regen feels less than eco (probably 50% at best), and brake regen is less than 100%, probably 75% or less. That's just by feel on my SR. My guess is that Zero did not maximize regen on sport mode with the idea that if they did, they'd overstress the battery and motor to do too much regen during spirited driving, causing things to overheat, plus the bike is smoother with less regen.
I'm at 1,500 miles now (only 1,000 are mine) and I just switched my custom to 100% power, 0 regen, 100% brake regen. Seems the most convenient setting as I can coast if I need to take my hands off the handlebars, yet still have full regen if I want it. And I am now comfortable with having full power at my disposal, so unless it is slippery, I no longer feel the need to set reduced power in custom...
Anyone know what the settings on the sport and eco mode are? I would like to try the sport torque with the eco regen on my custom mode.
My guess is that Zero minimizes the regen because they are concerned about the rear wheel skidding on wet pavement. I don't think the batteries would be bothered in the least by increased regen power production.
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I don't think so. The chance of the rear wheel sliding I think is much larger due to the brisk acceleration in sport mode. With the non-IPM motor it already can't keep-up with spirited acceleration and when you add strong regeneration, it gets overheated even more. Same for the battery - it does get noticeably warmer with spirited riding, which is not good for it in the log term. I think the decreased regen in sport mode is due to the sub-par performance of the motor and temperature control for the battery and possibly the controller more than anything else.
I don't know the numbers for "sport", but power should be 100%, no braking regen feels less than eco (probably 50% at best), and brake regen is less than 100%, probably 75% or less. That's just by feel on my SR. My guess is that Zero did not maximize regen on sport mode with the idea that if they did, they'd overstress the battery and motor to do too much regen during spirited driving, causing things to overheat, plus the bike is smoother with less regen.
I'm at 1,500 miles now (only 1,000 are mine) and I just switched my custom to 100% power, 0 regen, 100% brake regen. Seems the most convenient setting as I can coast if I need to take my hands off the handlebars, yet still have full regen if I want it. And I am now comfortable with having full power at my disposal, so unless it is slippery, I no longer feel the need to set reduced power in custom...
Anyone know what the settings on the sport and eco mode are? I would like to try the sport torque with the eco regen on my custom mode.
My guess is that Zero minimizes the regen because they are concerned about the rear wheel skidding on wet pavement. I don't think the batteries would be bothered in the least by increased regen power production.
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I can't imagine the current sent to the battery from deceleration regen is anywhere NEAR as strong as the current the battery receives from a quick charger. I doubt that's an issue.
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I would bet the two are close. My gut feeling is that the amount of deceleration due to regen is equivalent to something like 60-90 Amps of current. I had a Vectrix where I could see in real time on my display the current due to regeneration, and I think the Zero decelerates at least as hard at 100% regen. The Vectrix was generating a lot more than 60+ A at highway speeds during regeneration. The quick chargers are doing about the same, maybe up to about 100A for the DigiNow.
Yes, it won't damage the battery, it will warm it-up. That, combined with the much higher draw during acceleration is just something that contributes meaningfully, I think.
Nothing is going to break from extra regen, it just adds to an already stressed battery and motor/controller. As I said, the motor itself (the non-IPM version at least) can't keep-up with even constant speeds of 80mph or so on a hot day, adding max regen in the mix takes away even the little opportunity for it to cool off while decelerating
I can't imagine the current sent to the battery from deceleration regen is anywhere NEAR as strong as the current the battery receives from a quick charger. I doubt that's an issue.
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The amount of warmup from regen (let's say it's 0.3C) will be dwarfed by the amount of power used just going at highway speeds (1-2C). Be concerned about your drag and average speed well before being concerned about regen effects.
In oily conditions, I've fishtailed many times from the throttle and never even close from regen, either. In that scenario, I want 100% regen because I can count on it to reliably bring my speed down sooner and more carefully than I can always brake.
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75% torque, 6% regen. The bike's next owner can rest assured that I, at least never rode it at 100% torque.
Thats like telling your prom date to save herself for the next guy.
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I recall reading a story about Hollywood Electrics when they did their first Pike's Peak Hill Climb. They reduced the brake regen to zero in order to manage battery temperatures, according to the article. I think Kocho is on to something.
As for what level of current is produced by slowing a motorcycle via regen... I don't know, but I don't see why it couldn't be the full 1.2 kW. It certainly slows the bike down right quick.
Power flows in, power flows out. Heat will be produced from inefficiencies.
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I recall reading a story about Hollywood Electrics when they did their first Pike's Peak Hill Climb. They reduced the brake regen to zero in order to manage battery temperatures, according to the article. I think Kocho is on to something.
Pike's Peak Hill Climb is a literal hill climb motorcycle race, so regen is a waste and small differences mean a lot. This is not how one should decide to operate in traffic.
As for what level of current is produced by slowing a motorcycle via regen... I don't know, but I don't see why it couldn't be the full 1.2 kW. It certainly slows the bike down right quick.
It's more than that. I'm not sure what "the full 1.2 kW" is supposed to mean, since no specific levels of heat production have been cited. If you mean the rate at which the onboard charger operates, regen can easily exceed that, but I'm unsure how much. But charging below 4kW produces a negligible amount of heat in the battery (in my observations and from hearsay), and regen seems to be in that range. Using 100A going down the highway discharges at a ~10kW rate for reference. I have the impression that regen power would be under 40% of that (judging by the idea that the torque range for regen is capped at 40% and there are pre-battery losses).
Power flows in, power flows out. Heat will be produced from inefficiencies.
Yes, just quantify that power and duty cycle to carry a sense of scale/proportion.
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Took the first long ride on my brand new SR today, loved it. Rode on ECO but didn't like the amount of the regen in that mode. When I wanted to coast I found I had to add throttle, defeats the purpose of coasting. I'd like to set up a custom mode that's similar to ECO with less regen but I don't know what the ECO settings are. Is this published somewhere? Thanks.
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Set it to something like 60% power and 0 regen, 100% regen on braking. Top speed as you like. So you get coasting but still have regen if you touch the brake.
Took the first long ride on my brand new SR today, loved it. Rode on ECO but didn't like the amount of the regen in that mode. When I wanted to coast I found I had to add throttle, defeats the purpose of coasting. I'd like to set up a custom mode that's similar to ECO with less regen but I don't know what the ECO settings are. Is this published somewhere? Thanks.