ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: PL3 on August 20, 2020, 03:46:42 AM
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2021 models, any clues yet?
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2021 models, any clues yet?
Not to my knowledge. Zero usually announces the next year's models sometime in October. But this year, who knows?
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No announcements yet, but this got posted may give some clues:
https://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/zero-files-dsr-x-and-fxe-trademarks.html
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I'm pumped to see what Zero has to offer in 2021. I'm selling my gas bike now. Choosing between the Zero SR/S and Livewire. I'll probably get the Livewire if they add L2 charging in 2021. After reading this forum it looks like Zero may have a problem with rain proofing??? Hopefully this isn't a wide spread issue.
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I'm pumped to see what Zero has to offer in 2021. I'm selling my gas bike now. Choosing between the Zero SR/S and Livewire. I'll probably get the Livewire if they add L2 charging in 2021. After reading this forum it looks like Zero may have a problem with rain proofing??? Hopefully this isn't a wide spread issue.
Any forum will show countless issues on any model bike. So spend equal time in the LW forum (https://www.hdlivewireforum.com/)before making such a decision based on reliability.
If it were my choice, I would take the SR/S even if it were the same price as the LW.
However, if CCS or J1772 is more common where you ride should greatly influence such a decision.
For an example, L2 is better where I ride in this area of NV. CCS is better where I ride in CA.
-Don- Reno, NV
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There's really only the one CCS here in Santa Cruz, but there's lots of J-plugs.
Really depends on what you need. CCS is clearly the future.
-Crissa
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There's really only the one CCS here in Santa Cruz, but there's lots of J-plugs.
Really depends on what you need. CCS is clearly the future.
-Crissa
You now have three, according to Plugshare. You have the new one at 701 Ocean St, Santa Cruz CA 95060 and the other two at 911 Soquel Ave, Santa Cruz, CA 95062. But if one lives in Santa Cruz, they will be as useless as the ones I have a few miles away from home in both Reno as well as Auburn. But it looks like you're in a fairly decent area for well spaced out CCS chargers. Also, CCS vehicles can also use J1772, just takes a lot longer at 3 KW than it does at 25 KW!
Even my SS9- could make it from Santa Cruz on Hwy 1 to the CCS charger in Pacifica. You have more than enough CCS stations in your area. BTW, the two digit number on the left side of the location on Plugshare shows you the past reliability of the charger from 1 to 10. The one in Pacifica is rated as a 10, so there isn't much chance of it having a problem when you get up there. It has no negative check-ins since Jan of 2019. And even that looks like operator or vehicle error because it worked fine just before as well as after that.
So you can buy an Energica and take a ride up to visit Richard's place! ;)
Looks like you can go almost anywhere from Santa Cruz with CCS, even with a SS9-. The Hwy 1 is the longest shot and you can even make that. But barely. To do it in comfort, you may wanna get a short J charge before you get into Pacifica if you're low but you should be able to make it anyway as Hwy 1 usually has a lot of places well under the speed limit. It's only 65 miles on Hwy 1 to the CCS station in Pacifica.
You could make it with juice left over with a SS9+.
IMO, Santa Cruz looks like a great place to have CCS. You could even make it here to Reno from there with all CCS chargers. That would even be easier, as more chargers on the other routes. Hwy 1 north is your worse case and you can even make that on a SS9- as long as you don't speed.
You're in a better location for CCS than here in Reno, by far. We're loaded with Jplugs in this area, not so well with CCS. All the CCS chargers here in Reno are meaningless. Too close to home to be useful. I still cannot get to SusuanVille, Salt Lake City or Bridgeport from here with CCS charging. You can go just about anywhere from there with CCS.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Hey, don't forget the Energicas! The LW only gives you Level1 or DCFC. Zero only gives you Level1 or Level2. Energica is the ONLY one that offers ALL THREE.
Only downside (if that matters to you) is that unlike Zero or Harley Davidson, Energica is not an American-based company. I MIGHT have an Energica IF there were a more convenient dealership but the closest one is too far away to be practical.
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There is a CCS in Pacifica? That was news to me. Where is it? Unfortunately much of Highway 1 is closed right now between Pescadero and Santa Cruz due to the ongoing fire in the Santa Cruz Mountains, which had extended west as far as the highway at some locations.
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There is a CCS in Pacifica? That was news to me. Where is it? Unfortunately much of Highway 1 is closed right now between Pescadero and Santa Cruz due to the ongoing fire in the Santa Cruz Mountains, which had extended west as far as the highway at some locations.
1227 Linda Mar Shopping Center, Pacifica, CA, 94044, Behind the Ross, by the Bank of America.
See here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/53811)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Hey, don't forget the Energicas! The LW only gives you Level1 or DCFC. Zero only gives you Level1 or Level2. Energica is the ONLY one that offers ALL THREE.
Only downside (if that matters to you) is that unlike Zero or Harley Davidson, Energica is not an American-based company. I MIGHT have an Energica IF there were a more convenient dealership but the closest one is too far away to be practical.
And the LW is slower charging on CCS. IIRC, it averages around 12 KW charging, the Energica about twice that speed on CCS.
And don't forget about the very handy reverse (and slow forward, less than 2 MPH at WOT) on the Energicas.
Your closest Energica dealer is at:
Hudson Valley Motorcycles
179 N. Highland Avenue – Ossining, NY 10562
How far is that from you?
Edit:That is only 50 miles from you. I just checked.
For the list of Energica dealers, see here. (https://www.energicamotor.com/find-dealer/)
-Don- Reno, NV
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Hey, don't forget the Energicas! The LW only gives you Level1 or DCFC. Zero only gives you Level1 or Level2. Energica is the ONLY one that offers ALL THREE.
Only downside (if that matters to you) is that unlike Zero or Harley Davidson, Energica is not an American-based company. I MIGHT have an Energica IF there were a more convenient dealership but the closest one is too far away to be practical.
And the LW is slower charging on CCS. IIRC, it averages around 12 KW charging, the Energica about twice that speed on CCS.
And don't forget about the very handy reverse (and slow forward, less than 2 MPH at WOT) on the Energicas.
Your closest Energica dealer is at:
Hudson Valley Motorcycles
179 N. Highland Avenue – Ossining, NY 10562
How far is that from you?
Edit:That is only 50 miles from you. I just checked.
For the list of Energica dealers, see here. (https://www.energicamotor.com/find-dealer/)
-Don- Reno, NV
Thanks. I'm aware of where they are located. Before COVID19 I had planned on taking a trip up there but it really isn't as practical for me. There are TWO Zero dealerships that are far closer to me and neither one requires paying a toll to get there.
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There's really only the one CCS here in Santa Cruz, but there's lots of J-plugs.
Definitely 2 sets of EVgo stations. One is outside a Lucky, the other is at Whole Foods. There's also a ChargePoint DC charger being installed here: https://www.plugshare.com/location/85367
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Hwy 1 is closed in three places today, only one in Santa Cruz: Swanton to Ano Nuevo.
I got to go home last night.
And the plugs at the courthouse aren't for public consumption, that I know of. So there's still only ones out at the While Foods. Not exactly convenient to meeting people in town yet.
And I have had to use J-plugs downtown many times! Like when I can't charge because of wildfires.
I got to go home last night, tho. Sounds like about a thousand families lost their homes, tho.
-Crissa
-Crissa
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And the plugs at the courthouse aren't for public consumption,
What makes you assume that? It looks like it is open to everybody on Plugshare and the new ChargePoint should be now working, even though no check-ins yet.
It looks like an unmentioned new ChargePoint J-station is there also. I see a Zero charging there in the last photo, but no check-in. Looks like they have done a lot of work on the chargers there this month and PlugShare should be updated. Perhaps you should take a ride there (when the smoke clears!) and report if there is a J-1772 there now and report it to the site so they can update their new info.
I do that for this area and many other areas for questionable charge locations.
BTW, here in Reno it is still very smoky.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I've had the opportunity to have the Zero SR/F and Livewire on extended test drives (4 days each). I like the looks and handling of the Livewire a little better than the Zero, but the lack of L2 charging is a deal breaker. The Zero is great bike, love the price and the tank storage. The lack of being able to pair your phone to the bike for music and navigation stinks. I also feel better supporting a company that is fully invested in the development of Electric bikes, rather than Harley which I question if they are REALLY committed to the Livewire (could discontinue at any time). Be interesting to see what both companies bring to the table for 2021 models.
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I've had the opportunity to have the Zero SR/F and Livewire on extended test drives (4 days each). I like the looks and handling of the Livewire a little better than the Zero, but the lack of L2 charging is a deal breaker. The Zero is great bike, love the price and the tank storage. The lack of being able to pair your phone to the bike for music and navigation stinks. I also feel better supporting a company that is fully invested in the development of Electric bikes, rather than Harley which I question if they are REALLY committed to the Livewire (could discontinue at any time). Be interesting to see what both companies bring to the table for 2021 models.
Have you test ridden an Energica as well?
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I've had the opportunity to have the Zero SR/F and Livewire on extended test drives (4 days each). I like the looks and handling of the Livewire a little better than the Zero, but the lack of L2 charging is a deal breaker. The Zero is great bike, love the price and the tank storage. The lack of being able to pair your phone to the bike for music and navigation stinks. I also feel better supporting a company that is fully invested in the development of Electric bikes, rather than Harley which I question if they are REALLY committed to the Livewire (could discontinue at any time). Be interesting to see what both companies bring to the table for 2021 models.
The LW looks very well built. Looks great in reality, the photos don't do it justice. But is there any luggage available for the LW? There are several reasons why I don't care for the LW, but its looks is not one of them. But I prefer to ride bikes than to look at them.
The music and navigation coming on the new bike are non-issues to me. I have a Garmin 395LM (https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-Zumo-395LM-Certified-Refurbished/dp/B07G4J9QJ2/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&hvadid=78271545680018&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=garmin+395lm&qid=1598905850&sr=8-1-spons&tag=mh0b-20&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyRzkyRkFVUjU3QzdFJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMTkxNTk4TThNVFJaQzRYRzlYJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3ODczMTRCVk9OVE5KNzM2N08md2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl) on both my Zeros (I have a GPS system on every motorcycle I own). The 395LM cost less than $250.00 and I highly recommend it. It is designed for motorcycles. It has a built in Blue-Tooth Media Player and countless other features. My Nolan helmet has FM radio and more (and works surprisingly well!) so I have it all covered. I use this, (https://nolan-usa.com/products/ncom-n901l-r-ncom-bluetooth-rear-cartridge-kit-with-ess-light.html) which has a stop light which will activate with my Regen when the brakes are not touched. Has the Bluetooth for the GPS as well, for the music of your choice. Nolan helmet required. I have the Norlan N100-5 (https://www.webbikeworld.com/nolan-n100-5-modular-helmet-hands-on-review/).
You can also buy the TPMS sensors for the GPS. (https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-Tire-Pressure-Monitor-Sensor/dp/B00BCMUD66/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=garmin+TPMS+sensor&qid=1598906237&sr=8-3)I have that installed on both my Zeros (all my vehicles have a TPMS of one type or another). But the sensors are kinda expensive at $65.00 each and you need two. But they have replaceable batteries and work very well. It's one of the very best external TPMS systems, IMO. But it will NOT fit an Energica. The brake caliber will hit the valve unless the valves are changed. But this TPMS (https://www.amazon.com/SYKIK-Wireless-Pressure-Monitoring-Motorcycles/dp/B07BFH9WZ7/ref=sr_1_73?dchild=1&hvadid=78202819517595&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&hvqmt=b&keywords=tst+tpms&qid=1598907147&sr=8-73) will fit the Energica. It has the smallest wheel sensors of all. It just has to be separate from the GPS.
Also, you can make your own GPS directories. I have one named "J Charge Stns" for my Zeros. My Energica GPS has two directories for charging, the one for J charge stns and the other for "CCS Fast Charge".
I add to it with Plugshare info. every time I go to a new location.
I keep the GPS set for U-turns okay, shortest distance, freeway okay. I find that normally works best for electric bikes. But it can all be changed in a minute. I have "unpaved okay" only on my DS.
If you, or anybody here, does go the 395LM GPS route and need info. on how to set it up with your own directories and such for charging, I can help you with that here on line. It's quite simple after doing it one time and is very handy on electric bikes.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Have you test ridden an Energica as well?
I would suggest only do that if you're ready to buy one!
Even though Richard was able to resist the temptation somehow. But he gave an accurate review here when he said "too much everything except for range". But I find by the time I am almost out of range I need a break anyway. And that is usually well within the range of a CCS charge station on most of my rides. I am quite happy with the range of my SS9- as there are CCS chargers just about everywhere I wish to ride to anyway and a lot more are coming.
Almost every time I look at Plugshare I notice a new one. The last new one I noticed was just a few miles from my Auburn house. I go by there often, but they snuck these in (https://www.plugshare.com/location/252066)without me noticing them until I checked Plugshare.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have not had a chance to ride an Energica (no dealers in my area). Based on your input I’ll look more into it for sure.
I will say it was pretty convenient on the Livewire to select a destination on my phone, put the phone in my pocket, and use the LW screen for directions. I’m sure there are better ways to do it, but this was pretty nice.
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There is a CCS in Pacifica? That was news to me. Where is it? Unfortunately much of Highway 1 is closed right now between Pescadero and Santa Cruz due to the ongoing fire in the Santa Cruz Mountains, which had extended west as far as the highway at some locations.
1227 Linda Mar Shopping Center, Pacifica, CA, 94044, Behind the Ross, by the Bank of America.
See here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/53811)
-Don- Reno, NV
I saw those two stations being built and then watched them sit around and not turned on for a couple of years. When they were finally activated a few years ago it never occurred to me that they were CCS. They sure looked like L2 stations to me. I shop at Safeway and go to the bank next to the facility at least once a week and have never seen anyone anywhere near the chargers, other than the semi-trucks unloading supplies at the back of the grocery store. ??? Talk about hiding the facility from the public. That location is pretty much devoid of traffic.
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I saw those two stations being built and then watched them sit around and not turned on for a couple of years. When they were finally activated a few years ago it never occurred to me that they were CCS. They sure looked like L2 stations to me. I shop at Safeway and go to the bank next to the facility at least once a week and have never seen anyone anywhere near the chargers, other than the semi-trucks unloading supplies at the back of the grocery store. ??? Talk about hiding the facility from the public. That location is pretty much devoid of traffic.
Haha those stations are just up the street from me. Think they put them where they did for easy access to power (off the back of Safeway). A lot more people have discovered them, regularly see at least one in use.
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I saw those two stations being built and then watched them sit around and not turned on for a couple of years. When they were finally activated a few years ago it never occurred to me that they were CCS. They sure looked like L2 stations to me. I shop at Safeway and go to the bank next to the facility at least once a week and have never seen anyone anywhere near the chargers, other than the semi-trucks unloading supplies at the back of the grocery store. ??? Talk about hiding the facility from the public. That location is pretty much devoid of traffic.
L2 ChargePoint charge stations are thin. The thicker ones, more the size of a gas pump, are usually CCS on one side and CHAdeMO on the other side.
They are often well hidden. For some examples, the Tesla SuperChargers hidden behind the Safeway in Truckee, CA. I bet people have shopped there for years without knowing they were there. But no issue to Tesla Drivers. Just turn on the mic and say "navigate to Supercharger" and the GPS shows you how to get there in a way that is impossible to miss. I don't have any of that auto drive stuff in my Tesla. I prefer to drive it myself, which still is not often. It mainly just sits in the garage while I ride the bikes.
Also the CCS hidden behind the SaveMart in Truckee. Those who need to know they are there do, like me. But now they also have CCS in front of the place. The ones in the rear are EV-Go, the front chargers are from Electrify America. I have used both with my Energica. No J-1772 there front or back, but there are several J plugs in other areas of Truckee. Truckee is getting ridiculous with the number of all types of charge stations from every charge company. But from between Truckee & Reno there are no charge stations at all.
I probably used every charge station in Truckee over the years, except for CHAdeMO.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I saw those two stations being built and then watched them sit around and not turned on for a couple of years. When they were finally activated a few years ago it never occurred to me that they were CCS. They sure looked like L2 stations to me. I shop at Safeway and go to the bank next to the facility at least once a week and have never seen anyone anywhere near the chargers, other than the semi-trucks unloading supplies at the back of the grocery store. ??? Talk about hiding the facility from the public. That location is pretty much devoid of traffic.
L2 ChargePoint charge stations are thin. The thicker ones, more the size of a gas pump, are usually CCS on one side and CHAdeMO on the other side.
They are often well hidden. For some examples, the Tesla SuperChargers hidden behind the Safeway in Truckee, CA. I bet people have shopped there for years without knowing they were there. But no issue to Tesla Drivers. Just turn on the mic and say "navigate to Supercharger" and the GPS shows you how to get there in a way that is impossible to miss. I don't have any of that auto drive stuff in my Tesla. I prefer to drive it myself, which still is not often. It mainly just sits in the garage while I ride the bikes.
Also the CCS hidden behind the SaveMart in Truckee. Those who need to know they are there do, like me. But now they also have CCS in front of the place. The ones in the rear are EV-Go, the front chargers are from Electrify America. I have used both with my Energica. No J-1772 there front or back, but there are several J plugs in other areas of Truckee. Truckee is getting ridiculous with the number of all types of charge stations from every charge company. But from between Truckee & Reno there are no charge stations at all.
I probably used every charge station in Truckee over the years, except for CHAdeMO.
-Don- Reno, NV
As usual you are correct, Don. I never really looked at that charging station in Pacifica before since it was so close to home and I run on cheap 120V power. ;) So I stopped by and checked it out today. See attached photos. Apparently you get your choice of two different flavors of 50 amp fast charging.
In other news: the proposed wildfire prevention utility fee, which would have been tacked on to your electric bill that the California state legislature was attempting to implement, was defeated last night.
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Yeah, we can't actually pay for better systems, nooo. Ugh.
-Crissa
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Apparently you get your choice of two different flavors of 50 amp fast charging.
The blue is CHAdeMO (for mostly Japanese name EVs such as the Nissan Leaf, etc.) and the black is the CCS, that Energicas and the LW can use for a fast charge, as well as most other vehicles that are compatible with DC fast charge (other than Tesla & Japanese).
But there is an adapter for a Tesla so it can use CHAdeMO. (https://shop.tesla.com/product/chademo-adapter)
That can be handy at the Wal*Marts, as those Wal*Marts that have the chargers normally have CHdeMO and CCS just as there in Pacifica. A few also have a separate thinner J-1772 station.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Sept 15th is when dealers hear all about the 2021s....
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Sept 15th is when dealers hear all about the 2021s....
Looking forward to that. I bet the news leaks out very quickly on that day. :)
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Part of me hopes the 2021's are a quantum leap forward, but the other half hopes there are only incremental improvements. I don't want to look sideways at my new 2020 FXS with disgust. :-[
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Part of me hopes the 2021's are a quantum leap forward, but the other half hopes there are only incremental improvements. I don't want to look sideways at my new 2020 FXS with disgust. :-[
I know, right?? I really can't afford any new vehicles these days...
I bought my S at the end of 2018 before I knew what the 2019s had in store. Although I would've LOVED to have had the 14.4kWh battery, I HATE black motorcycles (I'm not particularly fond of silver either, but I prefer it over black). When the 2020s came out, I was disgusted to see that they were only selling the 7.2kWh version of the S in the US. They still sell the 14.4kWh in Europe, so I don't know why they wouldn't make it also available here. I don't think the extra power of the SR is worth the $3,000 premium over the standard S (nor am I particularly fond of the much higher insurance premiums),
Be interesting to see what 2021 has in store but right now the only thing I'm considering is upgrading my S with a Hollywood Electrics fairing.
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Although I would've LOVED to have had the 14.4kWh battery, I HATE black motorcycles (I'm not particularly fond of silver either, but I prefer it over black).
I have about the same taste on color as you do, but I thought the HD LW in black looked great. But that was the only black I really liked on a bike. I also don't care for the Zeros in pure black. I like the gold DS the best.
But remember, you don't see the color as you're riding the bike! I won't let the color stop me from buying the bike I want, if it's only available in black.
BTW, I had my choice of three colors in 1971. Black, red or white. Then, I chose black, but I guess my taste has changed since then.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I had no choice in color when I bought my XMAX so its black... but at least the flat black doesn't show the dirt the way gloss black does. Unfortunately, on every hot summer day when I've been unable to find any place with shade to park it I'm reminded again of why I HATE black vehicles.
When I bought the Corbin saddle for the Zero I had the GRAY leather seating area instead of black for that reason. Unfortunately, Corbin doesn't make a saddle for the XMAX (yet).
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You're allowed to paint and wrap things, guys.
-Crissa
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You're allowed to paint and wrap things, guys.
-Crissa
It's also a LOT cheaper to NOT buy something that doesn't come the way you want it than to buy it and spend even MORE money to make it what you want. It's different if you've had something for awhile and discover you want to make changes... but to buy it off the floor KNOWING you'll have to make changes after the sale is a whole 'nother thing (unless the dealer offers to do it for free... and that NEVER happens).
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It's a bike, it doesn't cost that much to change its looks.
-Crissa
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It's a bike, it doesn't cost that much to change its looks.
-Crissa
I think you will be surprised, if you can find a place to do it. It will be in the thousands, if you want a decent job done.
I have had a few things painted on my Yamaha Venture back in the late 1980's. I doubt if it's cheaper these days.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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There's not much coloured plastic on Zeros and the parts are fairly easy to remove. It'd probably cost you less than $50 in material to wrap it and it's not particularly hard, nor a big deal if you do mess it up on the first go. I don't think I'd bother painting a bike when it's more likely to get dinged up and when it's quicker, cheaper, and easier to rewrap than a car you're more likely to want to change it to a different colour at some point.
There are plenty of bikes that aren't perfect from the factory and people buy them knowing full well they're going to spend more money on a windscreen, tail tidy, adjustable brake levers, a more comfortable seat, a slip on and decat, power commander, better tyres, etc. Meeting a fellow rider with a bone-stock bike is a rare occurrence.
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Most of our projects have only cost under a hundred bucks, Don.
But we're done it ourselves. It's just so easy to take plastics off and spray them or sand or decal or whatever.
-Crissa
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There's really only the one CCS here in Santa Cruz, but there's lots of J-plugs.
Really depends on what you need. CCS is clearly the future.
-Crissa
I've charged at multiple CCS in Santa Cruz. There's one evGO near the Capitola mall at the Safeway, there's one evGO or EA at Whole Foods close to 17, and now there is a free one sponsored by the county that's right downtown across the river. Those are the ones I can think of, there may be more.
CCS is definitely the future.
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Staying a bit closer to topic, looks like Q1 will give something good to look forward to, if things at Exro go according to their timelines: https://www.onenewspage.com/n/Press+Releases/1zltph5rkd/Exro-CEO-Corporate-Update-Letter.htm
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"Super Charger abilities..."
As Artie Johnson used to say: "Verrrrrry interesting..."
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I can't figure out what that company actually does.
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"Super Charger abilities..."
As Artie Johnson used to say: "Verrrrrry interesting..."
They don’t mean supercharging as in Tesla charging technology, nor really supercharging as in blowing more air into a gas engine, though I think the latter is closer. The technology appears to allow reconfiguring an electric motor dynamically for better power at high speed or better torque at low speed. Nothing I’ve read so far gives any indication of how much extra power or torque.
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Most of our projects have only cost under a hundred bucks, Don.
But we're done it ourselves. It's just so easy to take plastics off and spray them or sand or decal or whatever.
-Crissa
Sure, we can all do a mickey-mouse job with a ten dollar can of spray paint. I was talking about a more professional factory-like job with metallic baked-on paint, etc.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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"Super Charger abilities..."
As Artie Johnson used to say: "Verrrrrry interesting..."
They don’t mean supercharging as in Tesla charging technology, nor really supercharging as in blowing more air into a gas engine, though I think the latter is closer. The technology appears to allow reconfiguring an electric motor dynamically for better power at high speed or better torque at low speed. Nothing I’ve read so far gives any indication of how much extra power or torque.
Correct "supercharging as in blowing more air into a gas engine". This is what the CTO mentioned in one of their interviews. Not sure if it will give anything extra, but could be more of an RPM based auto-confiiguration-select kind of thing.
I can't figure out what that company actually does.
According to their company's website:
Exro is a Vancouver, BC-based technology company that is dedicated to creating an intelligent energy management system that converts energy in new ways to improve the performance, efficiency, and longevity of batteries, electric motors and generators
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They're doing some interesting things by switching around series-parallel connections.
It's kinda magic, kinda just annoyingly complex and hard to manage mathematically. But when you can do it, it means a motor or battery pack that can pretend to be a different motor or battery pack, on the fly.
-Crissa
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That EXRO stuff is pretty cool. Closest analogy to I can come to ICE tech is Koenigsegg's free-valve technology. They are dynamically changing the torque profile of the motor by leveraging their controller to activate different winding patterns in the motor. The material i've watched states that the technology isn't a game changer on motorcycles, if I remember right they said 3-5% efficiency gain. Their primary target market is heavy load EVs. But - It'll be neat to see what that looks like on the Zero platform after some development.
I bought some of their stock. I think they might be a good long term hold.
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No announcements yet, but this got posted may give some clues:
https://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/zero-files-dsr-x-and-fxe-trademarks.html
This corresponds well with what I heard.
Enduro Prototypes are on their way.
There is a cooperation with KTM regarding this
KTM tried to buy Zero but failed.
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Sept 15th is when dealers hear all about the 2021s....
So was this true? Anyone hear anything?
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Seriously!
Come on dealers - spill the beans!
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Seriously!
Come on dealers - spill the beans!
I would be surprised if there are many new models this year with all the shut downs world wide. It will at least be delayed, I would think.
So don't expect much.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I suspect you're exactly right.
I'd be happy with a 8kwh FX.
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Test rode the SR/S today and loved it! It’s so close to new models coming out that I can’t stomach to pull the trigger without knowing what’s coming in 2021. Ugh!
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Test rode the SR/S today and loved it! It’s so close to new models coming out that I can’t stomach to pull the trigger without knowing what’s coming in 2021. Ugh!
That SR/S is my favorite bike from Zero also, especially if it is the Premium with the 6 KW AC charger.
What would you want that is better?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Probably a battery spec bump and a better display computer which integrates to my phone for GPS and music.
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A reverse 'gear' would be helpful to back uphill into my garage. Did the promised center stand option materialize as yet?
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A reverse 'gear' would be helpful to back uphill into my garage. Did the promised center stand option materialize as yet?
The Zero SR/S at EuroCycles here in Reno is the ONLY electric bike I know of which had a centerstand. I think it's standard on the SR/S (or is it?). Any SR/S owners here?
BTW, they sold the bike already. It was an SR/S standard with hard luggage. My favorite bike in their shop, but I would want the Premium model with the 6 KW charging. I hear they have it on order, but the demand is still very high on those.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The centerstand is an accessory, it can be purchased for the SR/F or the SR/S from your dealer. Haven't heard anything about the new models yet.
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Is the centrestand useful? (as in, needed to check belt tension?)
Cas :)
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Probably a battery spec bump and a better display computer which integrates to my phone for GPS and music.
The 2nd part is easy, if you can add your own GPS with a media player which also has Bluetooth, as I have on every one of my bikes. For motorcycles, I would recommend the Garmin 395LM (https://g.factoryoutletstore.com/cat/1656-417471/Garmin-Zumo-GPS.html?cid=243134&chid=1600&campaignid=129808&adgroupid=1194070051727172&adid=74629443330051&targetid=kwd-74629531548243:loc-190&matchtype=e&device=c&network=s&msclkid=2a2025ea605b1432afa97a8901210813). I have that model on all three of my electric motorcycles.
-Don- Reno, NV
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we cant talk about it until middle October....three letters
B
N
G
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Gimme another hint!!
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Bummer! Last year I got the 2020 model line up email from Zero on the 18th, was hoping the same for this year. Well if they are holding out until October, they at least have something new to show.
I remember reading an article last year where a journalist was told by Zero there would be 2 big announcements this year, one in ~April and one mid year. The SR/S was the first, I'm curious what the second is.
Can you say if it is a big deal or not?
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My wild guesses...
B - Battery
N - Navigation
G - Backup "Gear"
99.9% chance I'm wrong
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My wild guesses...
B - Battery
N - Navigation
G - Backup "Gear"
99.9% chance I'm wrong
I thought it meant there will be new models, but they will "Be Nothing Good" ;D
-Don- Reno, NV
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I thought EVERYONE knew "BNG" stood for:
-B-old -N-ew -G-raphics
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Must definitely be Bold New Graphics.
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I don't know, I'm just happy to have fresh air for at least half the day.
-Crissa
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I hope the G doesn't mean they're going to jump on the gearbox bandwagon. B is most likely going to mean a battery capacity bump which I think we all expected. For N the only other thing I can think of except navigation is noise, either something silly like a speaker or chain drive/reduction gearbox.
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Bike
Now (has a)
Gigawatt (motor)
That all it could be!
;)
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Bike
Now (has a)
Gigawatt (motor)
That all it could be!
;)
I would prefer a Gigawatthour battery! ;D
-Don- Reno, NV
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BNG sure sounds like Bold New Graphics to me. And that is what I am expecting. ;)
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Battery Next Gen I'd hope.
Cas :)
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I thought EVERYONE knew "BNG" stood for:
-B-old -N-ew -G-raphics
Searching Urbandictionary yielded unsatisfactory (NSFW) results.
Further reference: https://www.rideapart.com/articles/300081/ask-rideapart-bikes-new-every-year/
""Sometimes, though, so-called new models simply get the BNG treatment. BNG is an acronym for 'Bold New Graphics.' Offer some new colors, and maybe change the name as in the case of the Yamaha MT-07, -09, and -10, and some people will jump all over them because they think they're new. These are great bikes, but despite the new lipstick, they're exactly the same bikes as last year.""
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Unfortunately I think you nailed it...it looks like Bold New Graphics is the answer:(
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Better not be like this one at 4:07
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWlzglLasuw
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This will be supremely disappointing if they don't at the very least bump the battery capacity. Last increase was 2017? So going on nearly 4 years ago.
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21KWh! Place bets now.
Cas :)
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21KWh! Place bets now.
Cas :)
My bet is no dice. I bet Zero keeps the current models as designed with just some minor updates to smooth out any wrinkles in their platform.
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21KWh! Place bets now.
Cas :)
My bet is no dice. I bet Zero keeps the current models as designed with just some minor updates to smooth out any wrinkles in their platform.
They've been essentially unchanged since 2015-2016 except for battery capacity increases, unless you're talking about just the SR/F+S. 2020 gave us nothing new for all the other models except the FX(S) was made available as an "11kW" model, if the only other thing they can come up with in 2 years is a bunch of stickers it will be a massive disappointment.
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I'd be happy if they gave us US riders the additional 7.2kWh that they took away from us with the standard "S" model. Oh, and BRIGHTER colors than black or silver for God's sakes.
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You mean you want a 14.4 non-R? I've never understood why the US doesn't get those, or why Europe doesn't get the 3.6 FX(S).
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You mean you want a 14.4 non-R? I've never understood why the US doesn't get those, or why Europe doesn't get the 3.6 FX(S).
The US got those until last year, when they were eliminated. I heard that was because the base S with the larger battery did not sell very well, so they eliminated it as an option. Same for the Fxs with modular batteries in Europe. Zero's not dumb, they wouldn't have discontinued those if they sold. The more configurations Zero has, the harder it is to have available inventory nearby and increases the chance some bikes don't sell. Logistics costs money
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And you can buy the parts to make what you want, they just don't pre-configure it.
-Crissa
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You mean you want a 14.4 non-R? I've never understood why the US doesn't get those, or why Europe doesn't get the 3.6 FX(S).
The US got those until last year, when they were eliminated. I heard that was because the base S with the larger battery did not sell very well, so they eliminated it as an option. Same for the Fxs with modular batteries in Europe. Zero's not dumb, they wouldn't have discontinued those if they sold. The more configurations Zero has, the harder it is to have available inventory nearby and increases the chance some bikes don't sell. Logistics costs money
They must have really sold bad to justify that. For the 14.4 non-R it wouldn't require them to have any components they didn't already have, it's just sticking the battery from an R on a bike with non-R controller and motor. With the 3.6 FX(S) it's a bit more understandable as it would require keeping the modular batteries in stock. It's also easy to see why the 3.6 models wouldn't sell, but I can't believe that Americans wouldn't be into a cheaper 14.4 model when it's the initial cost and lack of range that puts a lot of people off buying electric.
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It's not like they stopped making the 14.4 S model. They still sold them in Europe, so there is absolutely NO REASON they couldn't sell them here too. Even if they didn't sell well here, THEY WERE STILL MAKING THEM!!!! They just didn't sell them here. We're not talking about emission control differences so how big a deal would it be to sell a US-compliant 14.4 S model if they were already making a Euro-compliant version?? Considering how many parts are in common with the SR? Shouldn't cost them a DAMN thing more.
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Why are you so dead set that they waste advertising space on a model that doesn't sell well?
It's not like you can't probably order it.
-Crissa
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Why are you so dead set that they waste advertising space on a model that doesn't sell well?
It's not like you can't probably order it.
-Crissa
What advertising space? I can't say I've ever seen a Zero advert other than from their Instagram account, and it's not like they're paying for that (and the adverts are never for a specific capacity).
I'm not sure how you'd go about ordering it either. Zero themselves don't sell bikes directly and they'd probably say no if you asked them so you'd need to ask a dealer. They'll probably get told no as well and I can't imagine them putting pressure on Zero for it. There would probably be paperwork hassle involved too, it might be classed as a one-off custom model, and you might run into problems trying to register or insure a bike that doesn't exist direct from the manufacturer.
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21KWh! Place bets now.Cas :)
Think about how long that will take to charge from empty to full with Zero's charging systems.
But not too bad if you have the full 12 KW worth of charging in a place where such is available. Then only a couple of hours.
-Don- Reno, NV
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What advertising space? I can't say I've ever seen a Zero advert other than from their Instagram account, and it's not like they're paying for that (and the adverts are never for a specific capacity).
They advertise on Google Ad sense and a couple others. They advertise to dealers. And they do take custom orders from dealers for colors and charge tanks and models so... Making their factory and sales materials cleaner by not mentioning all the options is a cost savings.
-Crissa
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21KWh! Place bets now.Cas :)
Think about how long that will take to charge from empty to full with Zero's charging systems.
But not too bad if you have the full 12 KW worth of charging in a place where such is available. Then only a couple of hours.
-Don- Reno, NV
I think here in the UK I'd rather have larger battery capacity and hence a guaranteed longer range (a 50 mile round trip) and have the safety and certainty of charging at home (at 240VAC, 3KW still fits into an overnight daily charge schedule), than rely on the network of broken/dodgy/expensive chargers dotted around the countryside here. For the next 10 years or so I think battery capacity is the determining factor in the UK, because our public charging infrastructure is frankly hopeless, despite the frothy rantings of a few swivel-eyed EV nerds trying to say otherwise.
Cas :)
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It's not like they stopped making the 14.4 S model. They still sold them in Europe, so there is absolutely NO REASON they couldn't sell them here too. Even if they didn't sell well here, THEY WERE STILL MAKING THEM!!!! They just didn't sell them here. We're not talking about emission control differences so how big a deal would it be to sell a US-compliant 14.4 S model if they were already making a Euro-compliant version?? Considering how many parts are in common with the SR? Shouldn't cost them a DAMN thing more.
All three Zeros that I purchased were ordered though a dealer, secured by a deposit, and only then were my bikes manufactured at the factory and sent to my dealer for me to buy. So I don't get why the 14.4 S models are not sold in the U.S. ??? It would seem to me that all you should need to do is to order one and wait for Zero to make it and ship it to your dealer. That is what I did to get my 2018 16.6 S Zero in November 2017. I wonder why they changed their marketing plan here? ??? Unless there are significant and costly differences between DOT and EU legislative requirements that must be updated each year. I guess that is possible.
With government regulations being different all over the world, I suppose that paperwork is more of an issue that building a product. If that is the case, it is a real shame. I have always thought that motorcycles should be able to have a worldwide design that doesn't need to be changed to be sold in each different country. (Other than perhaps having English or Metric displays, which anyway can be changed simply by the push of a button as was the case with my 2012 Zero S.)
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Different countries have different lighting requirements, differing rquirementss for braking and motor strength.
The US doesn't have motor limits, so it makes no sense for them to upsell the smaller motor.
And they were tryng to get away from custom-built bikes, but I doubt it's truly impossible.
-Crissa
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Different countries have different lighting requirements, differing rquirementss for braking and motor strength.
The US doesn't have motor limits, so it makes no sense for them to upsell the smaller motor.
And they were tryng to get away from custom-built bikes, but I doubt it's truly impossible.
Other than the motor and the controller, the S and the SR are the EXACT SAME bike. It would cost them NOTHING to build the 14.4 version of the "S" bike for the US because they're already building nearly the same bike.
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It would cost them NOTHING to build the 14.4 version of the "S" bike for the US because they're already building nearly the same bike.
Except... Promoting and building a different configurations is a cost. You guys are asking for them to promote it.
-Crissa
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It would cost them NOTHING to build the 14.4 version of the "S" bike for the US because they're already building nearly the same bike.
Except... Promoting and building a different configurations is a cost. You guys are asking for them to promote it.
Again: A NIT. The option page would have two configurations: 7.2kWh and 14.4 kWh. Like they already have in Europe and they used to have here. I don't see how that is any different from having two different configurations for the SR/F and the SR/S. Especially since it was done already. The only expense would be changing the color of the bike used on the page.
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Different countries have different lighting requirements, differing rquirementss for braking and motor strength.
The US doesn't have motor limits, so it makes no sense for them to upsell the smaller motor.
And they were tryng to get away from custom-built bikes, but I doubt it's truly impossible.
Other than the motor and the controller, the S and the SR are the EXACT SAME bike. It would cost them NOTHING to build the 14.4 version of the "S" bike for the US because they're already building nearly the same bike.
Given limited production ability, it costs them the ability to build a bike that would sell faster. And it costs them to store the bike longer, waiting for it to sell. It costs them to ship bikes from the factory or between dealers to fulfill demand for a specific model. Dealers are less likely to order more bikes if the ones they have are still around.
I guess in the US cost conscious people went for the FX, then the SR/DSR for the middle, and the SRF/SRS for the high end. I imagine the SR/DSR will be replaced soonish with something based on the SRF's technology.
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I don't see how that is any different from having two different configurations for the SR/F and the SR/S.
Because they're selling more of those.
Custom orders are a drain on resources, so they try to do that as little as possible.
-Crissa
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The flaw in your argument is that they ARE building the bike. They just aren't selling it in the US. Your argument would make sense if they discontinued the bike altogether but THEY'RE STILL BUILDING IT!
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The flaw in your argument is that selling a bike is a cost. Marketing, support isn't free.
-Crissa
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Marketing really isn't an issue, support isn't either because the only different part (the battery) is already used in the R models. Having the 3.6 models in Europe would involve additional cost because currently there are no 3.6 modules or the associated mounting hardware over here.
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You keep handwaving this cost away, but it's a real cost.
They have only so many hours to do everything, and you're asking them to do more, for little profit.
-Crissa
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But is the additional cost really that significant? Adding the 14.4 configuration to the site wouldn't cost anything and I doubt Zero spend a huge amount on advertising, do they even mention capacity in the Google ads (I have adblocker so I've never seen them) and do they have an ad for every single configuration that currently exists (that includes both the 7.2 and the 14.4 in Europe, and the 3.6 and 7.2 in America)?
There are obviously people that want a 14.4 non-R so it's not like it wouldn't sell at all, would they really need to sell that many to cover the cost of advertising?
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But is the additional cost really that significant? Adding the 14.4 configuration to the site wouldn't cost anything and I doubt Zero spend a huge amount on advertising, do they even mention capacity in the Google ads (I have adblocker so I've never seen them) and do they have an ad for every single configuration that currently exists (that includes both the 7.2 and the 14.4 in Europe, and the 3.6 and 7.2 in America)?
There are obviously people that want a 14.4 non-R so it's not like it wouldn't sell at all, would they really need to sell that many to cover the cost of advertising?
It obviously had to do with how Zero wants to market their bikes in the U.S. My guess is that they want the SR/F and S models to appeal to the longer range customer while focusing the smaller battery and less expensive models to commuters. Zero may feel that not having a 14.4 S in the U.S. market likely increases the numbers of the newer SR/F and SR/S platforms that they sell here.
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Most of the cost is the battery. Same reason Tesla doesn't bother with high-range non-performance models, even though they 'technically' make them.
-Crissa
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S 7.2 $10,995
SR 14.4 $15,495
Extra battery would add $2,500:
S 14.4 $13,495
That does seem to fill the gap nicely, so it's surprising they don't offer it. Even if they don't advertise it, they should still allow people to custom order it.
It obviously had to do with how Zero wants to market their bikes in the U.S. My guess is that they want the SR/F and S models to appeal to the longer range customer while focusing the smaller battery and less expensive models to commuters. Zero may feel that not having a 14.4 S in the U.S. market likely increases the numbers of the newer SR/F and SR/S platforms that they sell here.
I think you're onto something here. They're trying to allocate the market across a set of configurations that will maximize profits. A 14.4 S could possibly cannibalize sales of more expensive models. It could also appear under-powered for the weight, get reviewed by the wrong person, and compare poorly with ICE bikes in its class.
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But is the additional cost really that significant? Adding the 14.4 configuration to the site wouldn't cost anything and I doubt Zero spend a huge amount on advertising, do they even mention capacity in the Google ads (I have adblocker so I've never seen them) and do they have an ad for every single configuration that currently exists (that includes both the 7.2 and the 14.4 in Europe, and the 3.6 and 7.2 in America)?
There are obviously people that want a 14.4 non-R so it's not like it wouldn't sell at all, would they really need to sell that many to cover the cost of advertising?
It obviously had to do with how Zero wants to market their bikes in the U.S. My guess is that they want the SR/F and S models to appeal to the longer range customer while focusing the smaller battery and less expensive models to commuters. Zero may feel that not having a 14.4 S in the U.S. market likely increases the numbers of the newer SR/F and SR/S platforms that they sell here.
But they do have 14.4 models, you just have to pay more for the R motor and controller. They actually market the SR as their longest range motorcycle with the Power Tank. For $6k extra you're not getting any extra range from an SR/F over an SR. A 14.4 S/DS would probably end up being another $3k cheaper, enough to add the Power Tank. "Same price, even more range" sounds like a good marketing point to me.
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You keep handwaving this cost away, but it's a real cost.
They have only so many hours to do everything, and you're asking them to do more, for little profit.
-Crissa
Zero has yet to make a profit.
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You keep handwaving this cost away, but it's a real cost.
They have only so many hours to do everything, and you're asking them to do more, for little profit.
-Crissa
Zero has yet to make a profit.
They're a private company, I don't think we can say that. All we can say is they continue to take in investor money
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You keep handwaving this cost away, but it's a real cost.
They have only so many hours to do everything, and you're asking them to do more, for little profit.
-Crissa
Zero has yet to make a profit.
They're a private company, I don't think we can say that. All we can say is they continue to take in investor money
No, we can say that - they've never made a profit.
The CEO of Zero himself stated that in an interview with ADVRider earlier this year.
Link to quote:
https://youtu.be/nsTnU2-Lkt0?t=56m0s
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You do knot that a transaction has profit even if the company is still in the red, right?
You still make 'profit' in each burger even as you still owe on the grill. What else do you call revenue over transaction cost?
-Crissa
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Not making a profit seems to work for Tesla and their stockholders. While I don't get the concept, apparently Zero's investors do. ???
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Does anyone know about the tax credit for 2021? Its my understanding the existing 10% Federal tax credit will expire 31-Dec. When will we know if it gets extended or if a new incentive is put into place?
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Does anyone know about the tax credit for 2021? Its my understanding the existing 10% Federal tax credit will expire 31-Dec. When will we know if it gets extended or if a new incentive is put into place?
It will be up to our dysfunctional Congress to make that decision when (and if) they manage to approve a new federal budget for 2021. And that is going to be a real crap-shoot, depending upon the politics of the situation at the time. So I sure wouldn't want to depend on that. My recommendation is that if you want that 10% tax credit from the IRS, buy your electric motorcycle before December 31. Perhaps as a Christmas present for yourself. ;) Otherwise you will have to keep your fingers crossed and hope for the best. How are you at winning lotteries? :-\
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Not making a profit seems to work for Tesla and their stockholders. While I don't get the concept, apparently Zero's investors do. ???
Tesla has made a profit the last four quarters.
-Crissa
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I stopped by my dealer yesterday. I couldn't get a whole lot of info, but there is a required minimum order for 2021 models and the guy at the counter didn't see any new model names on the order placed for next year. Sounds like it's BNG for the start of 2021, and maybe an announcement in October of some new technology coming out next year like how they announced the SRF.
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Zero have to be exceptionally careful of the Osborne effect.
Cas :)
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Here you go, 2021 SR with BNG: https://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2021-Zero-SR-5014080621
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Strange that the new model was released without an update to Zero’s website.
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That can't seriously be all 2021 has to offer, right?
Looking at the site they do show a few different designs (the SR is supposed to be black with red striping so weird that this one is red with black). The DSR is black with gold graphics but I think that may have already been available, the DS is still beige like my 2019 but has some slightly different tone of beige stripes on it. The S is blue on blue (probably my favourite) and the FX and FXS are still grey and sandstone respectively with very subtle graphics.
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Right, i'm hoping that they atleast offer more/different add-ons. Also is it just me that i see halogen bulb on that 2021 SR? If so this is new i'm assuming.
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Haven't they always been halogen?
One possible change I may have found is the 14.4 non-R models (so not for the American market) have an 18t front sprocket, I seem to remember that only the 7.2s had that before and the 14.4s had the 20t like the R models but I could be wrong. Also I'm pretty sure the 7.2s used to be 33kW (44hp) but they're now listed as 34kW (46hp), however the 14.4 is still 44kW (59hp).
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Those are just the 2020 bikes.
This dealer may get a stern talking to for putting this out early.
I do hope there is some more than this, or at the very least a mid summer release of a new model with a covid delay.
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The ones on the website are the 2020 bikes? So they've already had these bold "new" graphics for a year?
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Those are just the 2020 bikes.
This dealer may get a stern talking to for putting this out early.
I do hope there is some more than this, or at the very least a mid summer release of a new model with a covid delay.
Oh, but why are they listed as 2021 models? Moreover the current (2020) SR has a black paint with red stripes right?
But yeah there could be a new model announcement (maybe an adventure sport tourer?). I imagine that to be like a cross between SR/S and DSR..
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When I go to the Zero site I only see the 2020 bikes. I don't see any mention of 2021.
The Cycle trader listing I do believe is of a 2021 SR with the classic red as the new color with the black tank markings. The other CT listing don't show pictures. I don't think they were allowed to show the SR either but did it anyway.
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Yeah there's no mention of the model year, I just assumed that they were 2021 models as I didn't know the 2020s had the fancy paint jobs too.
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Yeah the release of the SRF and SRS got all the press but all those color schemes have been out all year.
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So, if that red bike really is a 2021 does that confirm that BNG doesn't stand for bold new graphics as it's the same as the 2020 (just a different colour)? If that's the case we can still be hopeful of something better, although it looks like a battery capacity bump won't be it.
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So, if that red bike really is a 2021 does that confirm that BNG doesn't stand for bold new graphics as it's the same as the 2020 (just a different colour)? If that's the case we can still be hopeful of something better, although it looks like a battery capacity bump won't be it.
"Bold New Graphics" pretty much says nothing else has changed... so that would be EXACTLY "BNG."
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So, if that red bike really is a 2021 does that confirm that BNG doesn't stand for bold new graphics as it's the same as the 2020 (just a different colour)? If that's the case we can still be hopeful of something better, although it looks like a battery capacity bump won't be it.
"Bold New Graphics" pretty much says nothing else has changed... so that would be EXACTLY "BNG."
So was AF1 just taking the piss when he said that? Dude could've just said that's nothing's changed, like the 2020s, instead of leaving us all guessing.
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BNG sure sounds like Bold New Graphics to me. And that is what I am expecting. ;)
Sounds like Big New G-Battery (https://www.gbatteries.com/) to me. ;)
-Don- in hot Cold Springs Valley, NV
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I've been to that Randy's Cycle (Zero Motorcycles dealer in Marengo IL), they are excellent for EV moto. Anyone in state or nearby states with an interest in EV moto should take a trip there. The story goes they had a shop closer to the urban city center and moved everything to the country for nicer roads to demo on.
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And it looks like the FX is back to black (and grey).
https://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2021-Zero-FX-ZF7.2-5014106925
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Hmmmmm... the SR back in red, and the FX back in black. Maybe I misinterpreted "BNG." Instead of "Bold NEW Graphics" it really stands for "Bold NOSTALGIC Graphics?"
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Well the B might stand for boring or backwards.
It will be interesting to see how much longer they will produce the Gen 2 bikes.
Alwell, the post from Richard230 about Zero applying for two new trademark names gives some idea there will be new models at some time in the near future. Maybe the Polaris models, but that would/should be Polaris' to name.
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I think Zero (and most companies) can be forgiven for not updating their vehicles each and every year, especially in 2020. We have no idea how much their suppliers and partners were affected too. Fararis (for example) could have taken a 6 month hiatus from development for all we know.
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It hasn't been just a year though, the 2020 models are identical to the 2019 models that would have been developed in 2018 (and except for the battery capacity are the same as previous models back to 2016) and it's seeming like these 2021 models might be the same again. We're not after entirely new models but just some updates, things that probably should be possible like a battery capacity increase, faster charging, traction control, TFT dash, a reverse gear, LED turn signals.
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I think more firmware updates is something that would be realistically possible for the rest of this year, so i would not be expecting things like battery bump etc. For example, I would really love to see more regen than the possible current maximum that there is.
I guess FWIW, we all would like a better on board charger and now that SR/F/S comes standard with a 3kW charger, the gen 2 platforms could use the same. When equipped with a CT and when connected to a 9kW+ EVSE, both chargers could be engaged to get a 9kW charging rate. (wishful thinking) :(
And engaging CT + OBC this way was something Zero was doing with the previous gen CT if i'm not wrong
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It hasn't been just a year though, the 2020 models are identical to the 2019 models that would have been developed in 2018 (and except for the battery capacity are the same as previous models back to 2016) and it's seeming like these 2021 models might be the same again. We're not after entirely new models but just some updates, things that probably should be possible like a battery capacity increase, faster charging, traction control, TFT dash, a reverse gear, LED turn signals.
And regen brake settings that are not a joke.
Frankly it's been rather disappointing. Five model years after I bought mine, the FX has 11% more range, and little else to show, where the removable battery became non-standard and price increased $1500. Maybe the motor was improved slightly. I have no reason to upgrade.
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Shayan, I was just about to bring up "hopefully" using the 3kW SRS chargers but we'll see.
I get it with the cost savings of keeping a design going. I mean look at the DR650 and KLM650 those bike are almost the same for 30 years, so yeah it's a way to recoup the R&D costs of the bikes.
But if there really is no new features for the Gen 2 bikes then it's mostly been the same since 2018. A price drop wouldn't hurt.
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You can only get a price drop if the manufacturer actually gets a reduced price on components. Otherwise they just lose out on profit. I don't think they're seeing that in Gen 2 bikes, and I don't know if they have enough profit margin to do that.
I think they'll replace the S with some variant of the SR/F soonish. Which would simplify manufacturing, and give the S some upgrades(like the 3kW charger).
I don't expect they'll decide to substantially change the Gen2 platform. Any real changes would have to go through homologation, and I'm not sure they have enough bandwidth for that. I mean they're rumored to be working on a DSR/X(FST variant of DSR), an FX/E(FX upgrades?), and some kind of CCS integration(no proof, but it would be shocking if they weren't).
Different question, has any EV manufacturer announced an upgrade in battery capacity this year? Zero can only build with what the market provides.
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Well Energica went from 13kWh to 21kWh for what is technically the 2021 model year.
Don't get me wrong the SRF and SRS were a major step forward and very nice bikes but from 2012 to 2018 the S/DS(R)s had a few new features each year.
If you watch the last video I posted on the Damon thread their CEO talks about what may be keeping Zero where they are with battery capacity. It's his opinion but it does make some sense.
For some time now I've said drop the S and DS, keep the SR and DSR but drop the "R" from their names since it just brings up insurance on a 102 MPH bike. Then make the motors and buy the controllers in higher volumes to eek out some more savings.
People can dial down the power in the app if they feel they need to but most people don't mind having power when needed/wanted.
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For some time now I've said drop the S and DS, keep the SR and DSR but drop the "R" from their names since it just brings up insurance on a 102 MPH bike. Then make the motors and buy the controllers in higher volumes to eek out some more savings.
People can dial down the power in the app if they feel they need to but most people don't mind having power when needed/wanted.
If they do that they lose the 7.2 S/DS as well as the ability to have an A1 model of each for the European market. Anyone who wants those would be stuck going with an FX/S. I'd imagine insurance is still going to be higher than the non-R models even if they get rid of the R in the name simply because they have more power.
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Well Energica went from 13kWh to 21kWh for what is technically the 2021 model year.
Don't get me wrong the SRF and SRS were a major step forward and very nice bikes but from 2012 to 2018 the S/DS(R)s had a few new features each year.
If you watch the last video I posted on the Damon thread their CEO talks about what may be keeping Zero where they are with battery capacity. It's his opinion but it does make some sense.
For some time now I've said drop the S and DS, keep the SR and DSR but drop the "R" from their names since it just brings up insurance on a 102 MPH bike. Then make the motors and buy the controllers in higher volumes to eek out some more savings.
People can dial down the power in the app if they feel they need to but most people don't mind having power when needed/wanted.
I almost don't count them, because they went from a less energy dense cylindrical cell to a pouch cell, and made their battery larger. Assuming their pouch cell is close to zero's pouch cell, the only way for Zero get more range is to make the battery bigger or for battery technology to advance .
The Damon video https://youtu.be/a0ezB6eUpZg (https://youtu.be/a0ezB6eUpZg) is interesting, if they can get a reliable battery with double the energy density and no other detrimental effects, that'll be a gamechanger. But there's a huge if there. I don't know any production battery that has that density without more detrimental effects in longevity or thermal performance.
I don't think they'll get rid of the A1 models for the EU market, but I wonder if a software limited SR or FST platform bike could fill that gap.
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My thought is that Zero is going to do whatever it is that their retail dealers say their customers want. If they want a higher-voltage platform and CCS charging, that is what Zero will do their best to develop. But if they are receiving feedback that says their customers don't care about high-voltage and CCS and only want L1 and L2 charging at the lowest price possible, that is what they will get. ;) My observation of Zero during the past 10 years is that they are nothing if not keenly focused on supplying electric motorcycles that will attract new customers, including ICE motorcycle riders, at as low a cost as they can provide. I think the fact that they still use a 116V drive train, L1 and L2 charging, air instead of liquid cooling and retain their legacy models is an indication that they know (or believe) that their customers want a (relatively) basic bike without Energica technology or weight.
However, it is possible that major upgrades to their power train and batteries might be forthcoming in the future if they receive a request from Polaris to develop new technology. I can see how Polaris might want to stick with L1 and L2 charging, but water cooling could be something that they might like to see on their off-road platforms. ???
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People can dial down the power in the app if they feel they need to but most people don't mind having power when needed/wanted.
They can't dial down the registration and license restrictions, though. This is why other American companies have trouble porting their designs to places that have power restrictions. Which are becoming more common.
-Crissa
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I'm in Georgia USA and my comments and suggestions come from there and apply to there.
I think most people in EU should be able to see that this thinly veiled "safety" issue is a suppressive money grab and I would urge people to vote out those who pull such ploys.
Just do it like this:
Here's a Zero that has been neutered. In one year take and pass a "real" motorcycle riders course and then we'll open the full power to the bike. So go practice. The license cost should only reflect the cost of the government running the test site.
The little game of pay full retail for a small bike then trade it in at a loss and move up a spot and do it over and over while paying a license tax for each step is one heck of a scam.
But don't worry Zero will keep making the little bikes.
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It doesn't matter whether you think it's a good system or not, it's one that exists and won't be changing any time soon.
If your idea is only for the American market then fine, although I don't think many people would agree with you (there are plenty of people that actually want a cheaper non-R 14.4 model), but America isn't the only market Zero sells bikes in. It would be very stupid of them to get rid of the non-R models in Europe and it wouldn't be the smartest idea to have non-R models in America (that would have previously been R models) be more powerful than the ones in Europe and then only have R models available in Europe. It would just confuse consumers.
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I wonder where the Exrof project will fit into all this..
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I think the Exrof motor may by a year or so off.
TheRan : it's one that exists and won't be changing any time soon.
Not with that attitude.
Let me hook you up to a lie detector and ask which system you would rather have. Yours or ours?
I can't change your system but having the option of a programed limited/governed bike that an owner can grow into should work even in that system. Or at least worth a try.
If you have any suggestions of how Zero can save money to lower the price of bikes, which is the number one reason people give for not buying them, put them out there. Streamlining the inventory is a pretty basic approach but it has seemed like a good idea to me for some time.
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TheRan : it's one that exists and won't be changing any time soon.
Not with that attitude.
Let me hook you up to a lie detector and ask which system you would rather have. Yours or ours?
Completely irrelevant, I don't have a choice which system applies to me nor do millions of other Europeans. No matter how much we complain it will not change, it is simply beyond our power to change it and there's not strong enough justification for doing so. The main problem with it is cost, the progressive licensing system and stricter tests are not a bad idea in themselves.
I can't change your system but having the option of a programed limited/governed bike that an owner can grow into should work even in that system. Or at least worth a try.
If it's user adjustable then it wouldn't abide by the regulations and quite frankly it would be ridiculous to expect people to not just remove/raise the restriction themselves even if they're licence doesn't allow them to. If it's dealer adjustable then it could work (similar to how A2 limiting works) although being an electric bike it could get rather complicated.
If you have any suggestions of how Zero can save money to lower the price of bikes, which is the number one reason people give for not buying them, put them out there. Streamlining the inventory is a pretty basic approach but it has seemed like a good idea to me for some time.
If that's your justification for getting rid of the non-R bikes then they need to do it world wide, still making them but just not selling them in America isn't going to make much difference. However, they'd still need to have the motors, controllers, and 7.2 batteries for the FX/S models.
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My thought is that Zero is going to do whatever it is that their retail dealers say their customers want. If they want a higher-voltage platform and CCS charging, that is what Zero will do their best to develop. But if they are receiving feedback that says their customers don't care about high-voltage and CCS and only want L1 and L2 charging at the lowest price possible, that is what they will get. ;)
This should be screaming "survivorship bias" to you like a klaxon.
Cas :)
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My thought is that Zero is going to do whatever it is that their retail dealers say their customers want. If they want a higher-voltage platform and CCS charging, that is what Zero will do their best to develop. But if they are receiving feedback that says their customers don't care about high-voltage and CCS and only want L1 and L2 charging at the lowest price possible, that is what they will get. ;)
This should be screaming "survivorship bias" to you like a klaxon.
Cas :)
"Survirorship bias" would seem to be a useful concept when it comes to electric motorcycle manufacturers. ;) (Just check out the defunct brand names in the forums below. :( )
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TheRan I won't quote each statement since I feel it takes up too much space sometimes. So I'll address 1,2,3.
1. You can't write or call and complain to your officials and vote against the ones that won't change it? Not an instant fix but the squeeky wheel gets the oil.
I don't really know where this anti motorcycle stance comes from. Were there problems with biker gangs or the Punk movement?
Motorcycles use less energy and take up less space on the roads. Riding them should be encouraged not making it such a cost and hassle to get up to speed, so to speak.
2. I'm saying the bike would need a dealer to flash the MBB to open the full power of the SR. So a weak bike to learn on and then you pass the test and get full power. Like a motorcycle bar mitzvah. Seems like a better idea the more I think about it.
3. There are three battery setups. The 3.6kWh units for power tanks and FX/S modular units (higher cost now). The 7.2 long bricks are either placed separately (FX/S or US DS/S) or in groups of two, AKA the 14.4 monolith. That is pretty efficient.
The bike model offerings could get paired down to gain efficiencies.
The FX/S should stick with the modular format IMO since it gives the platform more flexibility.
The SRF/S is new and selling very well so it stays of course. They could get the Limiter as well really. (Hey Zero, good idea here)
The DSR/SR feels like a proper if not truly sporty motorcycle and if the bike were setup to be limited electronically it could be billed as a bike that grows with you and be a nice selling point for those who want a full powered bike but have to wade through red tape to get there.
That leaves the old DS/S to receive the Darwin award. :)
And since there would be no true DS/S models there would be no need to "R" them so the DSR/SR loses their R and the DS/S are reborn as stronger bikes.
And I thank you.
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1. You can't write or call and complain to your officials and vote against the ones that won't change it?
You can do that, but let's be honest who will win if bureaucracy of multiple European countries or few electric motorcycle enthusiasts who don't like new Zero lineup.
Motorcycles use less energy and take up less space on the roads. Riding them should be encouraged not making it such a cost and hassle to get up to speed, so to speak.
I think that this is getting better and better. For example in my country (and other countries as well) you can ride Zero S (but not SR) without having driving licence for motorcycles, all you need is driving licence for cars that is 2 years old. That's why Zero S 14.4 is important for europe market.
2. I'm saying the bike would need a dealer to flash the MBB to open the full power of the SR. So a weak bike to learn on and then you pass the test and get full power. Like a motorcycle bar mitzvah. Seems like a better idea the more I think about it.
Sounds good, but there are few problems. How would government check your power limit? With modern vehicles having IoT units, this could lead to some scary surveillance.
Also let's be honest that Zero is not that big company to make this working. But there will be changes in laws due to emobility for sure.
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TheRan I won't quote each statement since I feel it takes up too much space sometimes. So I'll address 1,2,3.
1. You can't write or call and complain to your officials and vote against the ones that won't change it? Not an instant fix but the squeeky wheel gets the oil.
I don't really know where this anti motorcycle stance comes from. Were there problems with biker gangs or the Punk movement?
Motorcycles use less energy and take up less space on the roads. Riding them should be encouraged not making it such a cost and hassle to get up to speed, so to speak.
2. I'm saying the bike would need a dealer to flash the MBB to open the full power of the SR. So a weak bike to learn on and then you pass the test and get full power. Like a motorcycle bar mitzvah. Seems like a better idea the more I think about it.
3. There are three battery setups. The 3.6kWh units for power tanks and FX/S modular units (higher cost now). The 7.2 long bricks are either placed separately (FX/S or US DS/S) or in groups of two, AKA the 14.4 monolith. That is pretty efficient.
The bike model offerings could get paired down to gain efficiencies.
The FX/S should stick with the modular format IMO since it gives the platform more flexibility.
The SRF/S is new and selling very well so it stays of course. They could get the Limiter as well really. (Hey Zero, good idea here)
The DSR/SR feels like a proper if not truly sporty motorcycle and if the bike were setup to be limited electronically it could be billed as a bike that grows with you and be a nice selling point for those who want a full powered bike but have to wade through red tape to get there.
That leaves the old DS/S to receive the Darwin award. :)
And since there would be no true DS/S models there would be no need to "R" them so the DSR/SR loses their R and the DS/S are reborn as stronger bikes.
And I thank you.
1. No I can't. This isn't an issue in just my county, or even just my country, this is the whole of Europe. What I think of the system and whatever I do to try and change it would make absolutely no difference at all.
2. And that method could possibly work, it's basically how the A2 restriction works. However there is no precedent (that I know of) for restricting electric bikes to the A1 class, or derestricting them out of it. As I say it's possible but it would require some work on Zero's part and they'd need to homologate a separate version specifically as an A1 bike, run it through all the tests like they did with the current "11kW" versions.
3. There is no modular FX/S in Europe and in America it costs an additional grand to get a 7.2 modular over a fixed one. And if you get rid of the S/DS you get rid of the 7.2 option for those, so people who don't want the range or weight of the 14.4 (or don't have the money for it) and stuck with the FX/S with its slower charging, no storage, and less comfortable and higher seat. What you're proposing would mean that I, an owner of a 7.2 DS, would have no option to upgrade to in the future without making some sacrifices.
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Hi infiniteoffset, welcome aboard.
So 1a.
At the very least all motorcyclists should complain about a system that's a money grab and a hindrance to people riding motorcycles.
1b.
That is our law for sub 50cc gas scooters as well. Here you basically know that that person had a DUI or lost their license and so now they have to get a scooter. They end up being a dangerous obstacle in the road for people going much faster.
2.
How do they check the power on the EU Zero S bikes now?
I'd guess they just trust Zero will comply with the power limit after maybe a first test.
No difference with a "grow with you" S. Comes into the country weak. Then the rider comes in and gives their full power motorcycle license number to the Zero Dealer. The dealer ups the bikes power and has a record that the guy passed his test.
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They don't test every single bike, Zero just sends one off to be tested. It's run through a specific testing procedure to determine the maximum continuous power output so not just whatever it peaks at on a dyno. From my understanding the testing is done at certain speeds so an R model should end up using the same power at the same speed, however I think the speed is a certain percentage of the maximum speed (hence why the Euro bikes are limited to 86mph instead of 98mph) so it might require bringing the R models all the way down from 102mph to 86mph. Of course once the bike is derestricted that limit could be raised again.
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TheRan,
1. That's just sad. How did everyone get rid of all the all powerful kings that used to rule Europe?
2. In the way the app limits the bike's power it could be set limited from the factory but not customer adjustable. No need to reply they won't do this, I'm just putting it out there as what could be.
3. I'm saying they Should go back to the modular FX/S for everyone as it was just way more flexible with letting people either have extra batteries or take them indoors to charge for those with no garage.
As for charging I'd like to see all of them (Gen2) with the new smaller 3kW chargers standard.
My theory is that by having a DS/S that is what was the 14.4 DSR/SR is that for every unit you could now MSRP that bike to maybe $13.5K.
Split the difference between the $11k 7.2 DS/S and the $16k 14.4 DSR/SR.
When you look at the two bikes you get twice the battery for 50% more price as it is now. Plus the extra power of the R bikes thrown in.
It would be a much better deal and it will resale to a much bigger demographic that mostly want as much range as they can get.
Get cases for storage. Sorry that reason isn't good enough to keep the 7.2 DS/S
Ok that's all the suggestions I'm giving today to help Zero and the EU. Like I said don't worry neither side will use them but it's good to challenge people's thinking sometimes. That's how the world gets better.
I'm going to eat, watch football and ride later on. It's a beautiful fall day in GA.
Cheers
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Hi infiniteoffset, welcome aboard.
Hello, thanks for welcoming me. :)
So 1a.
At the very least all motorcyclists should complain about a system that's a money grab and a hindrance to people riding motorcycles.
I mean, yeah.
1b.
That is our law for sub 50cc gas scooters as well. Here you basically know that that person had a DUI or lost their license and so now they have to get a scooter. They end up being a dangerous obstacle in the road for people going much faster.
In some countries they upgraded this to 125cc with automatic snifter where Zero S falls to. Yay.
2.
How do they check the power on the EU Zero S bikes now?
I'd guess they just trust Zero will comply with the power limit after maybe a first test.
No difference with a "grow with you" S. Comes into the country weak. Then the rider comes in and gives their full power motorcycle license number to the Zero Dealer. The dealer ups the bikes power and has a record that the guy passed his test.
If the bike can be unlocked to higher level by user, then government will want to check it through some internet API or something for sure. But if this will come it's distant future and maybe not something we even want (something something Chinese social credit system).
We know that limiting already works since there are electric vehicles. For example Sur Ron has road legal and dirt versions that are the same bike, one just have limiter installed (that can be easily removed, but let's ignore that since we discuss legality here). So they could make S and SR based on a same hardware for sure. Would that be cheaper? Only Zero company knows. But it wouldn't have the grow feature, because once you would change the limiter it would be illegal to ride on it.
How I imagine the grow feature could be implemented without changing the legislation is that the limiter could be changed in official Zero service. Before changing it, you would cancel it's registration. Service would change the limiter and give you new papers. Then you would register it again. Maybe something like this could work without big changes in legislation, I'm just rambling here so IDK.
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Hey, software limited hardware would be more reliable, and Zero and others have been nudging EU officials to allow it.
Maybe someday when software unlocks are normal across many manufacturers it'll be a real option.
-Crissa
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I just wanna know if there are gonna being any updates at all to the SRS and/or SRF models for 2021..:)
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EDoggN that's a 99% no. There are a couple listings for 2021 SRSs on Cycle Trader with the same blue and grey setup and still the 14.4 battery. So if you don't know if you should wait to get one this year I'd say no need to wait go on and pull the trigger.
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Soooo......you saying there is still a chance..lol
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Yes hope springs eternal. :)
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EDoggN that's a 99% no. There are a couple listings for 2021 SRSs on Cycle Trader with the same blue and grey setup and still the 14.4 battery. So if you don't know if you should wait to get one this year I'd say no need to wait go on and pull the trigger.
I'm betting that's either a typo, or a deliberately misleading ad. There has been no announcement of any 2021 models from Zero yet. Until I see it on their home page, I'm not believing anything.
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Well the 2021 SR and FX Cycle Trader posts clearly show real bikes not CGI pictures with new colors.
One of the 2021 SRSs that I saw was at WOW here in GA and I know they sold out their 2020 model at a very nice discount while this listing is for over $22k.
So I'll stay at 99%. :)
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Well the 2021 SR and FX Cycle Trader posts clearly show real bikes not CGI pictures with new colors.
One of the 2021 SRSs that I saw was at WOW here in GA and I know they sold out their 2020 model at a very nice discount while this listing is for over $22k.
So I'll stay at 99%. :)
Still skeptical. It's not like those are brand new colors, but existing colors used on past models. Zero also sells "color kits" so you can dress up any one of their bikes to any color in their catalog. I was thinking of changing my S to the red used in the SR models of yore until I saw how much it cost. Silver is fine. ;)
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You New Yorkers are hardcore skeptics. LOL
I went on Ebay to see if they had a red tank for ya. There was some black ones but I didn't see red this time.
I did find a good deal on a front wheel and tire for my bike so thanks for the indirect good deal. :)
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we can talk about it publically Oct 13
some people have it correct.
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Awesome! Just a week to go then :D
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After interrogating a couple dealers...I am 99% sure absolutely nothing is changing on the 2021 SR/S and SR/F bikes except colors. Cycle Trader has a few 2021 SR/S’s listed already. Bummer.
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So this is part of the listing for a 2021 FX:
2021 Zero FX ZF7.2, Never run out of gas on the trails with the new 2021 Zero FX ZF7.2. This electric monster charges fast so you don't have to wait to take your next trip. Call Grand Prix Motorsports today at 303-761-2471.
Now is this advertising to grab attention or is it in fact a nod to having an increased AC charger onboard?
The plot (maybe) thickens.
We'll know in a few days.
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My guess for 2021 is an Enduro-y thing based on the SR/F platform, no other changes to drivetrain or battery...
:)
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Trying hard to come up with something witty to contribute, and realize I'm just glad Zero Motorcycles is still in business after the global depression, local wildfires, and international supply chain disruption.
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Trying hard to come up with something witty to contribute, and realize I'm just glad Zero Motorcycles is still in business after the global depression, local wildfires, and international supply chain disruption.
AMEN to that!!!
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Yeah, we're facing a surge of deaths due to the pandemic. Almost doubling the numbers. So... things are shutting down again. We can't get a month without a new disaster.it seems.
-Crissa
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So this is part of the listing for a 2021 FX:
2021 Zero FX ZF7.2, Never run out of gas on the trails with the new 2021 Zero FX ZF7.2. This electric monster charges fast so you don't have to wait to take your next trip. Call Grand Prix Motorsports today at 303-761-2471.
Now is this advertising to grab attention or is it in fact a nod to having an increased AC charger onboard?
The plot (maybe) thickens.
We'll know in a few days.
uuhh, does this mean the new 3kW charger will come in with the FX(S) Z7.2 pack as an option (or by default)?
This would make FXS an even better Urban commuter with some real (if not full) L2 charging capability.
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My guess for 2021 is an Enduro-y thing based on the SR/F platform, no other changes to drivetrain or battery...
:)
In one of the interviews last year (i believe at the EICMA), it was officially mentioned that the announcement that was planned for this october will "raise eyebrows".
I wonder if it was the announcement regarding the Polaris collaboration or the new Enduro thingy..
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So this is part of the listing for a 2021 FX:
2021 Zero FX ZF7.2, Never run out of gas on the trails with the new 2021 Zero FX ZF7.2. This electric monster charges fast so you don't have to wait to take your next trip. Call Grand Prix Motorsports today at 303-761-2471.
Now is this advertising to grab attention or is it in fact a nod to having an increased AC charger onboard?
The plot (maybe) thickens.
We'll know in a few days.
uuhh, does this mean the new 3kW charger will come in with the FX(S) Z7.2 pack as an option (or by default)?
This would make FXS an even better Urban commuter with some real (if not full) L2 charging capability.
Is this 3kW an actual thing, a rumour with some justification behind it, or just something that you're hopeful for?
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I don't know what it means.
It just seemed like a strange way to write up an ad.
The person writing it may know something we don't or they could know nothing about the bikes and they are trying to be funny.
I've seen dealers list them with free lifetime oil changes to be cute before.
It's on Cycle Trader if you want to see it.
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So this is part of the listing for a 2021 FX:
2021 Zero FX ZF7.2, Never run out of gas on the trails with the new 2021 Zero FX ZF7.2. This electric monster charges fast so you don't have to wait to take your next trip. Call Grand Prix Motorsports today at 303-761-2471.
Now is this advertising to grab attention or is it in fact a nod to having an increased AC charger onboard?
The plot (maybe) thickens.
We'll know in a few days.
uuhh, does this mean the new 3kW charger will come in with the FX(S) Z7.2 pack as an option (or by default)?
This would make FXS an even better Urban commuter with some real (if not full) L2 charging capability.
Is this 3kW an actual thing, a rumour with some justification behind it, or just something that you're hopeful for?
So this 3kW charger is the one that comes with the SR/F/S standard models. Just that this has not yet been introduced in the other models until now and the FX(S) models could benefit from getting this on.
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I'll say that "if" they can be retro fitted to the other bikes they "should" be.
We don't know at this point if they have or have not done so.
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And here is the new S in the new color, Storm.
https://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2021-Zero-S-NA-ZF7.2-S-NA-ZF7.2-5014245709
P.S. the FX has the old DS green in some of it's panels not the grey that I thought it had in some pictures.
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Nice color, but not enough to entice me off of my 2018 with its 13kWh battery.
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And the DS in Sonora.
https://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2021-Zero-DS-ZF-7.2-5014234066
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That DS is a photo from the Zero site which is supposedly the 2020 colour scheme, that S is different though.
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I would have bet a $1000 the 20 DS was the baby puke green. Guess I missed that.
Sonora should be am orangeish brown.
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2013 and 2018 were green. I thought by Sonora you were talking about a place (turns out it actually is), like the location of the dealer. The unofficial manual lists the 2019 as being Sandstone (the 2020 looks to be the same), my bike is registered as being beige but that my just be down to interpretation from whoever first registered it. The Zero site doesn't name the colours although there is an RGB value hidden away, Google "rgb(161, 154, 147)" and you can see it.
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2013 and 2018 were green. I thought by Sonora you were talking about a place (turns out it actually is), like the location of the dealer. The unofficial manual lists the 2019 as being Sandstone (the 2020 looks to be the same), my bike is registered as being beige but that my just be down to interpretation from whoever first registered it. The Zero site doesn't name the colours although there is an RGB value hidden away, Google "rgb(161, 154, 147)" and you can see it.
I'm not sure that right, but RGB is famous for not picking beiges out right.
-Crissa
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The website has been updated with the new colors ^-^
-Crissa
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The website has been updated with the new colors ^-^
-Crissa
Yes!! And other than the colors, all the tech specs look the same seemingly. So just BNG it is..
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I like the FX with the green shoulders, but the battleship blue S isn't as pretty as the SR/S.
-Crissa
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Woke up this morning to the Zero announcement email. So it appears...no changes except colors?
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Sure looks like it.
On the plus side: This means that used bikes will depreciate less and your "old SR from three years ago" still looks fresh.
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Woke up this morning to the Zero announcement email. So it appears...no changes except colors?
BOLD! NEW! GRAPHICS!
AF1 gave us the "Head's Up" at the start of this thread. Not surprising considering everything that has happened this year (and in California specifically).
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Well it seems like there's a major change over here in Europe, looks like they've dropped the 7.2 S and DS. Makes absolutely no sense and it wouldn't surprise me if this makes older 7.2 models go up in value.
Also there's a regular and an 11kW version of the FX/S available, not sure what the difference even is as they're both limited to 85mph. Why someone would ever buy the version that's more expensive to insure and has a smaller resale market I don't know.
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I received the Zero email message this morning and immediately visited their site. I found the site very confusing to navigate and tried to find out information about the various models, but I couldn't seem to see anything other than some random pictures that I could drag across my screen. There was one strange comment about one of their models having a range of 223 miles and being able to travel from the San Francisco Airport to Sacramento (the state's capital) and back on one charge. That is not going to happen. The only way that I know of to get from San Francisco to Sacramento is on the freeway, which has several mountain ranges to climb before you get to the flat valley area and typical speeds are 75 mph. I really doubt that even their top-of-the-range model will make it to Sacramento on one charge, much less also make it back, unless they know of a route where speeds can be kept to around 35 mph - which I certainly don't. When I tried to click on the message, I didn't get any reaction or any more information regarding that announcement. I would love to see a video of a Zero executive making that trip. ::)
Anyway, so it is BNG next year? Was anyone able to discover any sort of model technical improvements for 2021? (How about an automatic sanitizing spray feature? ;) )
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Well you can click on the pictures of the motorcycles and they'll take you to that model. A better way is to click on the 3 horizontal lines in the upper right corner and click directly on the model.
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yes, just new colors, no changes other than the FX/FXS line went up $300, all other pricing stayed the same.
Nothing is to say Zero cant have another model launch in the near future, kind of like the SR/F launch, it was released not at their normal annual launch. Surprised us....
Havent seen anything about a 11kwhr FX/FXS someone mentioned above for EU markets. Not sure how they would do that in that same chassis, and if so, why didn't the US get it first.
2020 has been rough on everyone for all the known reasons. The Cali wildfires were no joke around the Zero factory. It got very close. Several employees (I think it was 7 they told us) lost their personal houses, and they had to evacuate the factory several times. Cali was on lockdown a long time for COVID too. Supply chains all messed up, shipping a mess, lots of the World still on lockdown, and many parts are sourced globally. All the new stuff they'd been working on got delayed.
The very good news is sales are rocking across the whole MC industry. Many of those customers are looking for EVs now too. We had another record year with Zero. Energica too.
EV side note -- We get our first shipment of Stealth E-bikes from Australia in a couple weeks. With up to 6200W, its sort of a lightweight e-motorcycle plus 1 human power. If those go well, we'll add a more std e-bike line too. We are big fans of EV here. The EV tech is there to be real usable machines, they are really good now, and it's only getting better. We keep a 2011 Zero around just to show people the EV motorcycle progression in less than a decade.
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Havent seen anything about a 11kwhr FX/FXS someone mentioned above for EU markets. Not sure how they would do that in that same chassis, and if so, why didn't the US get it first.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/de-de/model/zero-fxs shows an 11kw option (not kwhr).
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Havent seen anything about a 11kwhr FX/FXS someone mentioned above for EU markets. Not sure how they would do that in that same chassis, and if so, why didn't the US get it first.
https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/de-de/model/zero-fxs shows an 11kw option (not kwhr).
ahh, that makes more sense. A 11kw one probably for some special tax or licensing purpose. Prob just a simple software change, as all the specs are the same except 4kw less output. Appears its a licensing reason. Easy for Zero to de-tune it. They made some special ones that only went 12mph for new non-licensed riders to try out inside at the MC shows. Get new riders to try a bike. Just a few clicks in the software for them.
21 PS (15 kW) @ 4.300 U/min vs 15 PS (11 kW) @ 3.700
Führerscheinklasse
A2 Führerschein for normal one
A1/B Führerschein for 11kw one
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Dasit?
Woke up this morning to the Zero announcement email. So it appears...no changes except colors?
BOLD! NEW! GRAPHICS!
AF1 gave us the "Head's Up" at the start of this thread. Not surprising considering everything that has happened this year (and in California specifically).
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The Cali wildfires were no joke around the Zero factory. It got very close. Several employees (I think it was 7 they told us) lost their personal houses, and they had to evacuate the factory several times.
Wow. I feel so bad for them. I can't even imagine. I hope they had fair warning to take as much as possible.
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Sure looks like it.
On the plus side: This means that used bikes will depreciate less and your "old SR from three years ago" still looks fresh.
I'm disappointed, I hopped for brand new models or upgrade to drop the price of used srf and srs :D the only thing I want is 12kw ac charge, and for now that only means one of the above.
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In good news, the used market for any 7.2 / 14.4 bikes will remain strong for the next year. I did see on Zero's FB post to 'Stay tuned here for updates throughout the week' which hopefully implies some cool add on / upgrade for existing bikes.
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You don't have to take the freeway to Sacramento, you can go through the delta, which is a popular motorcycle loop. The only freeway you need is over the bay bridge and that never goes fast.
But I don't know how to do it in 200 miles from SFO.
-Crissa
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I wish they introduce a much less bulkier version of the 1kW quick charger. Will come in handy to carry it around in say like a backpack instead of using up saddlebag space. Would be good to get a total of 8.3kW (including the CT) dub-J charging power!
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I wish they introduce a much less bulkier version of the 1kW quick charger.
Then it wouldn't be as reliable. And more expensive.
-Criss
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I wish they introduce a much less bulkier version of the 1kW quick charger.
Then it wouldn't be as reliable. And more expensive.
-Criss
They could probably do this if it had a fan, like the FST chargers do. But that wouldn't be backpackable.
I think any real changes to Zero bikes will come on/to FST bikes, or new models built on the FST platform.
They'll never say it, but I'm not sure I'd expect any Gen 2 bikes to get much. I'd love to be wrong though.
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I wish they introduce a much less bulkier version of the 1kW quick charger. Will come in handy to carry it around in say like a backpack instead of using up saddlebag space. Would be good to get a total of 8.3kW (including the CT) dub-J charging power!
I charge my 2017 Zero SR as much as 7.9 KW by carrying two 3.3 KW chargers wired into the motor controller. And these cost little more than the Delta Q's.
They do take up most of the side case space. But I only bring them when necessary. They weight around 11.5 lbs each, so they are up to the 5 KG weight limit. There is some room left over, but you're already at the weight limit for Zero's side cases.
They measure about 8.75" long, 5.5 " high, about 4" wide weight less than 12 lbs each, 3.3 KW each.
I see you're in San Jose. Start here (https://www.elconchargers.com/contact_us.html)and then it will be done on e-mail from there, if you're interested.
Elcon is in Sacramento. No too far from you. I picked mine up from their shop.
These chargers will be programmed for around 115 VDC max. That is around 95% SOC. Your OBC will get the last 5% when necessary.
You probably also want to read this thread (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.0). But that is NOT the same charger as I am using but is about half the price and can be mounted on the Bike (at least Shadow has done such).
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Cool thanks Don! I'll consider this when i'm back on longer rides again. 1.8kW would work best though, without getting too close to 1C for the 13kWh pack..
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Cool thanks Don! I'll consider this when i'm back on longer rides again. 1.8kW would work best though, without getting too close to 1C for the 13kWh pack..
I-C means the battery current capacity times 1, IIRC. You can get very close to the nominal wattage of your 13KWH pack. I would expect at least a ten KW charge will be fine.
In fact, doesn't Zero make a 6 KW charge tank that can be added to the premium models (6KW built in) for a total charging of 12 KW on their 14.4 KWH battery?
i have charged my SR 13 at 7.9 KW. My DS at 6.3 KW (7.2 KWH battery).
The 7.9 KW is higher than many (most?) charge stations. I use two charge stations when I can. If I can't use two, I have the switch added so I can NOT use the OBC and still remove the key.
The reason to only add 1.8 KW would be the price and the small size that you can mount on the bike as Shadow did.
I carry my two 3.3 KW chargers as needed for longer trips, in my Zero sidebags.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Well it seems like there's a major change over here in Europe, looks like they've dropped the 7.2 S and DS. Makes absolutely no sense and it wouldn't surprise me if this makes older 7.2 models go up in value.
Wait, WHAT??? You can't get the 7.2 models and we can't get the 14.4 models?? WTF??
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Well it seems like there's a major change over here in Europe, looks like they've dropped the 7.2 S and DS. Makes absolutely no sense and it wouldn't surprise me if this makes older 7.2 models go up in value.
Wait, WHAT??? You can't get the 7.2 models and we can't get the 14.4 models?? WTF??
I know, it's absolutely crazy. Loads of people were hoping that they'd bring the 14.4 non-R models back to America but instead they've gone and axed another model in Europe, one which I would have thought was selling very well. Once all the 2020 models have been sold the only options for light and cheap models will be the FX and FXS.
Note that I haven't seen anything actually saying that they're no longer going to sell them, they're just not on the site anymore. I was thinking perhaps it was just a mistake but it's the same on all the European sites.
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Maybe we can assume that Zero won't axe products in markets in which they are making a profit, ergo....
Cas :)
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The one positive I see from all this is my FXS lives another year. With several years of the same basic style, maybe the aftermarket will pick up and give me more farkles. There is a lot more for the S/DS-R series.
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Having invested in three "S" models in the past, two with Power Tanks, I am very disappointed to see the larger capacity battery models dropped from Zero's 2021 model line. I don't need the power, cost, or insurance expense of an SR model. The S fits my type of riding and range requirements perfectly. If I was in the market for a new electric motorcycle right now, I am not sure what I would do. I would love to buy an Energica, if only they were 100 pounds lighter.
And I agree that if the 7.4 S was discontinued in the EU that would seem to be a big mistake to me, considering that the distances traveled in Europe are likely less than in the U.S., with a larger percentage of in-town riding. It would certainly be interesting to know what marketing decisions have resulted in this change in Zero's lineup, unless they have some other products coming down the line next year. ??? I wonder if their new partnership with Polaris has influenced some of these decisions? ???
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I wonder if this was from dealer feedback or regulatory hoops they could no longer jump through.
-Crissa
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It would certainly be interesting to know what marketing decisions have resulted in this change in Zero's lineup.
IMO it's less a marketing decision and more of a financial one. A 7.3 and 14.4 version of a bike take up the same space in a European bound shipping container but the 7.3 nets Zero less profit.
What strikes is how muted most of the color offerings are, lots of cool earth tones.
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They're pushing an ad on Youtube now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3_E8gLKTT8
Got it in front of a Cybertruck video.
-Crissa
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It would certainly be interesting to know what marketing decisions have resulted in this change in Zero's lineup.
IMO it's less a marketing decision and more of a financial one. A 7.3 and 14.4 version of a bike take up the same space in a European bound shipping container but the 7.3 nets Zero less profit.
Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't think it's that simple. A gold plated bike would net even more profit and take up the same space, but they're not going to sell many of those. Same goes for bikes with a CT or PT, if all they care about is maximising profits why are they selling anything other than the most expensive model? They're still selling the 7.2 FX and FXS which are slightly cheaper and so make even less profit.
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It would certainly be interesting to know what marketing decisions have resulted in this change in Zero's lineup.
IMO it's less a marketing decision and more of a financial one. A 7.3 and 14.4 version of a bike take up the same space in a European bound shipping container but the 7.3 nets Zero less profit.
Perhaps I'm missing something but I don't think it's that simple. A gold plated bike would net even more profit and take up the same space, but they're not going to sell many of those. Same goes for bikes with a CT or PT, if all they care about is maximising profits why are they selling anything other than the most expensive model? They're still selling the 7.2 FX and FXS which are slightly cheaper and so make even less profit.
Perhaps another possible explanation why the 7.2 is no longer being imported into the EU, is that Zero ran into push-back from EU regulators that a 98 mph, 72 lb-ft torque, motorcycle is not something that they want to see sold in Europe because, due to its rated low-power motor, it can be bought by riders with a 125cc "learner" license. ???
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Didn't I already say that, Richard?
I wonder if this was from dealer feedback or regulatory hoops they could no longer jump through.
Oh yeah.
It's still a very good bike for learners, though. It's not like 125s can't be hot-rodded pretty easily.
-Crissa
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That's not the reason, they're still selling the 7.2 FX/S as an 11kW model which has the same peak power as the 7.2 S/DS, and they sell the 14.4 models as 11kW too and they have even more peak power (44kW versus 34kW) as well as 109Nm of torque versus 106Nm from the 7.2 (this actually used to be offset by the 14.4 models having 20:90 gearing but they're now 18:90 like the 7.2 was).
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That's not the reason, they're still selling the 7.2 FX/S as an 11kW model which has the same peak power as the 7.2 S/DS, and they sell the 14.4 models as 11kW too and they have even more peak power (44kW versus 34kW) as well as 109Nm of torque versus 106Nm from the 7.2 (this actually used to be offset by the 14.4 models having 20:90 gearing but they're now 18:90 like the 7.2 was).
Well, then it is a mystery. It must have something to do with production difficulties, sales, profit margins, or maybe they are trying to steer customers toward buying the new F/S models and away from the legacy bikes? Frankly, I am surprised that the S/SR Zeros are still around. Perhaps Zero still has a pile of parts for those bikes that have not been used up yet. I do notice that the older models now seem to be using the Cyber II app system. I wonder how that differs from the old Zero app and will there be a cost to use it in the future like there is with the LiveWire's app?
** Moderator edit: source https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/en-ca/technology did poster mean to write Cypher II ?
Cypher II and Cypher III are 13+ years in the making and are the central technology that deliver the ultimate riding experience.
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That's not the reason, they're still selling the 7.2 FX/S as an 11kW model which has the same peak power as the 7.2 S/DS, and they sell the 14.4 models as 11kW too and they have even more peak power (44kW versus 34kW) as well as 109Nm of torque versus 106Nm from the 7.2 (this actually used to be offset by the 14.4 models having 20:90 gearing but they're now 18:90 like the 7.2 was).
Well, then it is a mystery. It must have something to do with production difficulties, sales, profit margins, or maybe they are trying to steer customers toward buying the new F/S models and away from the legacy bikes? Frankly, I am surprised that the S/SR Zeros are still around. Perhaps Zero still has a pile of parts for those bikes that have not been used up yet. I do notice that the older models now seem to be using the Cyber II app system. I wonder how that differs from the old Zero app and will there be a cost to use it in the future like there is with the LiveWire's app?
The thing is, just like how they axed the 14.4 non-R models in America, they're still making the bikes. They're making 7.2 S/DS's, they're just not going to ship them outside of America anymore. And with them still selling the F/XS I don't think it's down to profit margins and I don't think there would be that many people who would take one of those over an S/DS so I don't believe it's a sales issue. And finally I don't think it's because Zero wants people to buy an SR/F or SR/S instead, well I'm sure Zero would love that but they're about double the cost so realistically no one considering one of the cheaper bikes is going to be able to afford one.
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That's not the reason, they're still selling the 7.2 FX/S as an 11kW model which has the same peak power as the 7.2 S/DS, and they sell the 14.4 models as 11kW too and they have even more peak power (44kW versus 34kW) as well as 109Nm of torque versus 106Nm from the 7.2 (this actually used to be offset by the 14.4 models having 20:90 gearing but they're now 18:90 like the 7.2 was).
Well, then it is a mystery. It must have something to do with production difficulties, sales, profit margins, or maybe they are trying to steer customers toward buying the new F/S models and away from the legacy bikes? Frankly, I am surprised that the S/SR Zeros are still around. Perhaps Zero still has a pile of parts for those bikes that have not been used up yet. I do notice that the older models now seem to be using the Cyber II app system. I wonder how that differs from the old Zero app and will there be a cost to use it in the future like there is with the LiveWire's app?
The thing is, just like how they axed the 14.4 non-R models in America, they're still making the bikes. They're making 7.2 S/DS's, they're just not going to ship them outside of America anymore. And with them still selling the F/XS I don't think it's down to profit margins and I don't think there would be that many people who would take one of those over an S/DS so I don't believe it's a sales issue. And finally I don't think it's because Zero wants people to buy an SR/F or SR/S instead, well I'm sure Zero would love that but they're about double the cost so realistically no one considering one of the cheaper bikes is going to be able to afford one.
Well, I am about out of ideas regarding Zero's legacy model marketing plans for 2021. ???
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Here is Zero's 2021 model spin for their European market: https://electricmotorcycles.news/zero-motorcycles-reveals-2021-line-up/
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Still pisses me off that I can't get the 14.4kWh battery unless I want to sink THOUSANDS more in an SR (with the attending higher insurance rate). From what I've been reading about battery life I guess I'll be riding my 2018 for a very long time.
Of course, if they ever sell the SR/S in red, it may be a different story...
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Still pisses me off that I can't get the 14.4kWh battery unless I want to sink THOUSANDS more in an SR (with the attending higher insurance rate). From what I've been reading about battery life I guess I'll be riding my 2018 for a very long time.
Of course, if they ever sell the SR/S in red, it may be a different story...
Agreed and same here. I guess I won't be selling it anytime soon. Maybe will look at custom fairing and charging options and maybe a bit wider rear tire to make it touring friendly.
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Here is Zero's 2021 model spin for their European market: https://electricmotorcycles.news/zero-motorcycles-reveals-2021-line-up/
Still no mention of a 7.2 S/DS, nor did MCN say anything about them, so it really does look like they're dead. Funny how that article shows the 7.2 models though.
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If you preordered it, would Zero make you a 7.2 model? Might be worth asking your dealer?
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Still pisses me off that I can't get the 14.4kWh battery unless I want to sink THOUSANDS more in an SR (with the attending higher insurance rate). From what I've been reading about battery life I guess I'll be riding my 2018 for a very long time.
Of course, if they ever sell the SR/S in red, it may be a different story...
Agreed and same here. I guess I won't be selling it anytime soon. Maybe will look at custom fairing and charging options and maybe a bit wider rear tire to make it touring friendly.
I think a Hollywood Electrics fairing may soon be in my future too. That way, I'll have the 2021 S that Zero SHOULD have built.
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Well if you managed to order a 7.2 it would be a 2020 model, and because the bike is already built I doubt they'd be willing to put the 2021 plastics on it (unless you paid extra for them). However as that's the only difference with the 2021 models it's not a big deal, the problem comes once all the left over 2020 models have been sold.