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[stanelie]

Well,
Trying to replace the dead battery in my DS with 7 Nissan Leaf modules, as Doctorbass suggested, it will not work.

The original battery is not configured as 7s2p, it is something else. There are twice the number of wires going to the BMS. There are several sensing wires in the lower section (see attached picture)
The Leaf battery fits physically inside the battery box, but without the BMS wired, it will not work. Also, there are hints that the BMS talks using canbus to the main motorcycle controller. Without the OK from the BMS, I doubt the motorcycle controller will let it start.

Thoughts?

[TEV]

Did that years ago, on a 2010 Zero S.

You have to use the middle contact of the Nissan Leaf cell, because there are two cells groups in series in the module (measure the voltage, you should have half of the module voltage on the middle post). Make sure that you identify correctly the BMS wires from the original battery ( kind of hard to do it if the battery is completely dead and you can't measure voltages) because you will burn the BMS otherwise.

Good luck.

Tom
   

[stanelie]

Hi.
I've found this great howto https://medium.com/@ryan.mcneely_93025/restoring-a-second-2010-zero-s-5b93c4f07b2c from @RyanMcNeely for the Zero S 2010, and for this specific model, the Leaf batteries are indeed a drop in replacement.

However, the DS 2011 battery looks different. There are two sections, a top section and a bottom section, and it looks like they both make one big cell, folded.

This can be infered by the way the top and bottom section are connected together.

On the top section, the connections the BMS and motor controller look almost like those from the 2010 S, most of the BMS wire colors match with Ryan's diagram.

However, there are also BMS wires attached to the other end of the cells, under the main connection section.


How do I connect those wires? Will the motorcycle even turn on with these wires disconnected?

[stanelie]

So, answering my own question :

It turns out the battery is indeed folded on 2 levels, and the mid-cell BMS connection is also parrallelised. The cable is split in Y at the end with all the connections, and goes to the top level mid-cell and the lower level mid-cell.

The answered was in the following post where a user made a wiring diagram of the DS battery :
https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7373.msg63903#msg63903 (batt_pack.pdf)
Thanks @igorbaldo !

[Alan. Yes THAT Alan]

Stanelie,
  I've been reading your recent posts. Thanks for the updates and lots of photos. I'm having trouble with my 2011 S (same guts as your DS, but slightly different suspension and tires).
How did you know the batteries are bad in your DS and that the problem wasn't in the controller, the charger, or something else?
How did you get the batteries out of the motorcycle? To me it looks like Zero started with a big battery box and then built a motorcycle around it. I can't tell how the battery comes out of the frame.
Where did you get the Leaf batteries and how do you know they're any good?

I'm not sure if my Zero's problem lies in the batteries or elsewhere, but if I end up having to replace the batteries, I don't want a direct replacement (same voltage and kw/h). Why didn't you replace your old batteries with more voltage and a much higher kw/h? so that you can ride faster and have a better range?

[stanelie]

Hi Alan.

The seller I bought the motorcycle from told me the batteries only had half of the original range remaining, and when I got there to buy it, it wouldn't even turn on.

When I got home, the charger refused to even start charging the batteries. So, I started working by first pulling the big battery box out of the bike. The box itself, on the DS anyway, is not fixed to anything. It sits on a shelf that can be angled down by removing the 2 front screws and loosening the two back screws to allow it to slide some and clear the frame. I had to remove the front wheel to be able to remove the box. Once the box is out, it can be disassembled completely. I then tested the voltage of the parallel groups and they were way too low, 0 volts or 0.2-0.3 volts. Dead, needing to be replaced.

I followed this guy's recipe, he has quite a few articles about his own S Zero motorcycles : https://medium.com/@ryan.mcneely_93025/restoring-a-2010-zero-s-electric-motorcycle-battery-5575209f2026

And I got the batteries on eBay from 300km away near Montreal (I'm from Quebec), he still has quite a lot for sale : https://www.ebay.ca/itm/294456189009

They were delivered very quickly, and it looks like they have the advertised capacity.

Then, after putting those modules inside the case, rewiring the BMS and closing the case and putting it back into the frame, I was able to ride the bike... for 5 minutes. Then it failed. Everything was ON' but I was getting no power at the wheel. No error messages, nothing. I let it sit, and the next day, it worked again for 2 minutes. Then it died again. I did some research, and I contacted Hollywood Electric, and I contacted Alltrax, the maker of the controller, and from their input, it looked like the controller had failed.

So, I did some research, again, and found a suitable controller to replace the damaged Alltrax one. I went with a Kelly Controller KDZ 48550, without regen, which has almost the same specs as the Alltrax one.
https://kellycontroller.com/shop/kdz/
(If you have to order it, don't forget to order the breakout cable and plug). I think it came straight from china, and it came quickly too.

I put it in the frame, with a spacer between the frame and the controller to accommodate the different output pins layout and prevent shorting out with the frame, wrestled a bit with the big power cables and tadaa! It was alive again.

I did 2 rides to date. The first ride at 50km/h depleted a bit less then half the battery, according to the gauge on the dashboard, I rode 27 km. The second ride at 90 km/h, I only did 33 km at that speed, and the battery was almost empty when I got back.

I hope this answers a few questions you were having.

[stanelie]

Oh,

And I didn't change the voltage or the battery configuration because I wanted to keep using the Zero battery BMS. This BMS communicates with the Main Bike Board to give the all clear, and if it doesn't, the bike doesn't run. So, I had no choice there. Until I figure out how to fake the BMS signal to the MBB (canbus network).

Also, with those Nissan Leaf modules, the only way to add range and keep the same 14S config is to double them up, and since they are so big, there is no room for that. So, I went with what I had.

[Alan. Yes THAT Alan]

Thanks for the replies. I'm keeping our conversation public, rather than sending you private messages because your answers are very helpful and they might be used by somebody else in the future.

  I'm curious about when your Zero failed with the new batteries after only 5 minutes. What were the symptoms? Did it suddenly stop and refuse to start again? You said that it worked the next day for 2 minutes. Did you recharge the batteries between day1 and day2? Or did the motorcycle run at the same battery level from day1, but then fail a few minutes later?

[stanelie]

It was only working for short moments, between 1 sec to 10 seconds, and it was totally random. Nothing for a few days, then twice in a day...
The level of the battery was kept high, as I was unable to discharge it.

The symptom with the Alltrax controller was that, when it would work, I would get a very small "clunk" from the motor when I would flip the kill switch and enable the controller. I think some current was running through the controller when it was starting up. When I heard that, the motor would run. When I disabled the kill switch and I did not hear that "clunk" from the motor, I knew it would not work.

I also removed the controller from the bike and hooked it up to a known good DC motor and an external power supply, as well as a 5 kohm potentiometer for throttle to see if it would run it, and the definitive proof was there : it would not run. Controller dead.

Alltrax provides a diode testing procedure (https://alltraxinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Doc120-042-C_TN006-Diode-Checking-DCX-Controllers.pdf) to test the output mosfets partially. All was good there.
Also, I was able to communicate with the Alltrax controller over RS-232 serial, and it was not reporting anything wrong.
Alltrax support told me this :
Measure b- to b+ on the controller, activate the throttle so the solenoid engages - you should have 48v
Measure b- to M (middle bus bar), activate the throttle so the solenoid engages - you should have 48v

All good there too. However, when I gave some throttle input, M should have gone low (lower), and it wasn't doing that.

My guess, as well as the tech's from Alltrax, is that the part of the circuit that drives the mosfets is probably faulty.

I've opened up the controller to try and fix it, but it is filled with black rubber, no way to reach the components and examine the traces. I'm working on removing this rubber, but it doesn't dissolve in anything (that won't damage the components at the same time). The best thing that has been working so far is heating the rubber with a reflow heatgun (very narrow nozzle), it makes the rubber stiffer and more brittle, and I can remove small chunks carefully with a small screwdriver. Maybe I'll get to the circuit board in 2-3 years.

[Alan. Yes THAT Alan]

Stanelie,
  A lot has happened this morning. Stuff that's never happened to my Zero before:

1) I was moving the Zero to a central part of the garage, so I could access both sides. I would drive it forward a bit, walk it back a bit, etc. No problems.

2) Suddenly, with no warning, it didn't want to drive forward any more. That's new to me. Dead. As I toggled the kill switch, I didn't hear the faint 'thunk' of a relay that you've mentioned. I'm very familiar with that sound and this is the first time my Zero has never thunked. Now it's acting like yours was.

3) I got the side panels off so I could access the Alltrax controller. Noticed that I get a solid green LED every time.

4) Checked b- to Pin2. (Should change as the throttle opens and closes). Got 0.0 volts the entire time.

5) Checked b+ to m-. (Should change as the throttle opens and closes). It was 15V when I first hooked up my alligator clips, but the motorcycle's key was off. That's odd. I turned everything on and off and on again and it all went to 0.0 volts and stayed there from then on as I twisted the throttle.

6) Checked b- to b+. 0.0 volts.

7) Checked b- to M. 0.0 volts.

I'm hoping the MBB isn't bad. I hooked up my laptop to it and they communicated fine. When I checked the 'inputs' command, the MBB shows different values for 'throttle' when I twist the throttle open vs. leaving it closed.

9) I hooked up my laptop to the Alltrax controller. Still got a solid green light, no errors. Everything communicates fine.

10) Went to the Alltrax's 'Monitor' tab. Here's where it gets weird. The instant I start to twist the throttle, the "Throttle Position" value jumps up from 0% to 20%. As I open the throttle more it still stays at 20%. Finally, at full-throttle, it only goes up to 21%. No higher than that. The entire time, the "Battery Voltage" value stays at 54.8 Volts and the "Output Current" value stays at 0.0 Amps. Nothing at all next to the "Error Flags" value.

11) I let go of the throttle because I need two hands to do a screen capture. I open the snippet program, then twist the throttle again so I can get a screen-shot of that 21% throttle. But as soon as I twist the throttle, the back wheel starts to spin!

12) It works now?!? I quickly hit the kill switch a few times and each time now has the familiar 'thunk'. I slowly open the throttle and the "Throttle Position" value shoots up to 24% and the back tire is spinning 1/4 inch off the garage floor, propped up on two blocks of wood.

 Everything seems to be working now. But I didn't do anything to fix it. Nor did I do anything to break it when I was moving in the garage.

  I'm leaning toward a bad motor controller, but still not 100% sure if it's that or a bad MBB. Do these symptoms sound like what you were experiencing? In your opinion do I have an faulty Alltrax controller, or is it something else entirely?

 And if anyone else out there has some insight to these problems, I'm all ears.

[Richard230]

When I had my early-build 2012 Zero it would randomly stall at intersections. The factory guys picked up my bike from my home and replaced the throttle assembly with a new version. They told me that some of the 2011 throttles were defective and my bike had one of the old ones. Replacing the throttle assembly completely cured the stalling problem.

[stanelie]

@Alan. Yes THAT Alan

On step 6, measuring between B+ and B-
As soon as the main contactor activates, you should be getting the full battery pack voltage across those terminals. If you don't, regardless of the status of the Alltrax controller (good or bad), the problem is not with the controller.

I would look into this before trying anything with the throttle.

BTW, the Alltrax controller low power "brain" section is powered by the small blade terminal #1, which is enabled by the main bike board. So, it will be green if it doesn't detect any internal issue, and the MBB is sending the "all good" (kickstand up, killswitch down...), even if it is not getting power on the main battery input terminals.

[Alan. Yes THAT Alan]

Stenelie,

  It took awhile, because I wasn't sure which cable bunch I needed (J1 vs J2) and my Mandarin isn't very good. But I finally received the Kelly motor controller and J2 cable today. Couldn't find anything on their site about a cap to put over the unused J1 socket and the RS-232 socket, so I'll need to make something later, to keep bugs and dirt out.
  I see what you're saying about the need for a spacer. What did you use to put a gap between the new motor controller and the motorcycle bracket? Just keep adding washers until it looks far enough?

 By the way, I decided to do a double-check of my Alltrax's settings, to be sure I make the Kelly settings the same. This time, when I hooked up my laptop, the Alltrax kept flashing 3 red lights (Throttle not at zero%), and then it stayed on "100% throttle" the entire time, even though it's sitting in my house, without any throttle nearby. That's probably what it was doing a few weeks ago, when my Zero wouldn't budge. (As a safety measure, the Alltrax won't let the motor turn if the throttle isn't at zero% during startup.) Now I'm convinced the Alltrax is the source of my Zero's problems.

 I'm unsure about the meaning of some of the Kelly's settings and what their values should be. The Chinese-to-English translations aren't quite there, so it's confusing. Did you get your settings all correct the first time, or was it trial-and-error?

[stanelie]

Hi Alan.

For the spacers, I used some thin nuts I had lying around. Washers would be fine too I'm sure.

The Kelly controller also has a "set throttle to zero before I enable" setting, if I remember correctly.

As for the settings, I think I'd have to physically disconnect the motor for Kelly's software to run (a safety measure?). Can you send screenshots of the settings? I'm sure I will remember most of them. I got lucky and got it right the first time.

[Alan. Yes THAT Alan]

Stanelie,
  Been on vacation for the past 2 weeks and trying to squeeze in a day to work on the Zero that's still in pieces.
 The old Alltrax controller had three small wires going to it that I'm going to have to splice to the new Kelly controller. One wire is throttle. One wire is key-on. What is the third wire?