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[ColoPaul]

Hi Keith
   You have a right to rant, this situation does suck.

My Volvo V90 is 21 years old 179000 miles cost £30000 new now worth £1000 or so but it is still mint and years off scrapping.No way I would pay the £40000 for a new one.

I think this is similar to if some lady hit your Volvo and totaled it.  Perhaps she was even negligent, driving recklessly, drunk and talking on her mobile.  No question, completely the lady's fault that your Volvo is now unusable.   Even so no one would expect the lady's insurance (or the lady) to buy you a £40000 new Volvo.  No, you would get a check for £1000, and you would be without a Volvo.   A sucky situation.

Not all of us Zero owners can have £14000 toys some of us used them as cheap transport.

I'm with you on this one.  Terry is a bit of a optimistic cheerleader for the e-moto industry.  He's trying to put a positive spin on this, which might work for a 2012 owner that has $$$ and was thinking about buying a new Zero anyway.   But for some of us, that's not an option, which is why I'm sad there is no 'repair' option.   We're going to be left a relatively small check and no motorcycle.

And you're in the UK, I don't know how the NTSHA recall applies there.  Have you sent Chris an email asking about the details on how this recall will affect you?  That might be advisable.

[keith burton]

My beef is that this a manufacturers fault on the main part of the bike, the part Zero assemble in house themselves. Not a problem with the cells its how they were assembled and packaged. We will get what we get I could do with knowing sooner if it is all decided already. I love electric bikes my Zero is my second one but there is an issue on customer service/ quality of manufacture, too many negative posts/ problems around for me. Wait until 2018 models get a recall as I am sure they will, lets hear all the Zero flag wavers then.  I know we are willing to put up with a bit of crap when dealing with a low volume producer but would a Honda/ Harley/ BMW bike get written off at 6000 miles. What statement have Zero made to individual owners I had nothing. Little Honda cub scooters were abused for decades carrying entire families/ animals/ half a house in climates all over the world but could go on for thirty years doing so. New modern firm, modern tools equipment, best brains, lots of investment and Zero could not make batteries that do not ignite. Maybe a rebrand to Ronson is in order.

[Richard230]

My beef is that this a manufacturers fault on the main part of the bike, the part Zero assemble in house themselves. Not a problem with the cells its how they were assembled and packaged. We will get what we get I could do with knowing sooner if it is all decided already. I love electric bikes my Zero is my second one but there is an issue on customer service/ quality of manufacture, too many negative posts/ problems around for me. Wait until 2018 models get a recall as I am sure they will, lets hear all the Zero flag wavers then.  I know we are willing to put up with a bit of crap when dealing with a low volume producer but would a Honda/ Harley/ BMW bike get written off at 6000 miles. What statement have Zero made to individual owners I had nothing. Little Honda cub scooters were abused for decades carrying entire families/ animals/ half a house in climates all over the world but could go on for thirty years doing so. New modern firm, modern tools equipment, best brains, lots of investment and Zero could not make batteries that do not ignite. Maybe a rebrand to Ronson is in order.

I hate to tell you this, but after manufacturing motorcycles for around 95 years, BMW still has all sorts of mechanical issues with all of their models, some more than others.  I have owned 8 BMW's since 1985 and my first one, a 1985 R80 blew out its engine's rocker bearing cages on both sides of the engine at 4K miles, which then had to be rebuilt under warranty.  My 1991 K100RS broke its driveshaft at 48K miles, destroying the entire inside of the swingarm. Every one of my BMW bikes have had problems, just not all that serious.  Fortunately, every problem that occurred during the warranty period was quickly resolved by my BMW dealer without any cost to me.  However, internet reports have indicated less positive outcomes from many other BMW customers. So, even a huge multi-billion dollar corporation like BMW can have issues with their bikes.  But I will agree, that the way the customer (and dealer) is treated by the manufacturer can make an unpleasant experience much better - or much worse.

The last BMW "don't ride" issue occurred a few years ago when the WC R1200RT was first introduced.  After BMW sold about 8000 of these things, they discovered that the rear shock shaft was defective and could break while the bike was being ridden.  They immediately contacted all of their customers and told them to not ride the bikes until the shock could be replaced by their dealer - which was going to take a while due to the shock manufacturer's schedule to make 8000 new components. Since this was during the summer, BMW offered their customers the option to have their dealer provide another BMW as a loaner to ride until their bike could be repaired, or they would buy the bike back for what their customer paid for it, or they would offer something like $5000 cash if the customer just parked the bike until it could be repaired and rode one of their other motorcycles during the summer.  If you are a big company with lots of resources, you can do something like this.  Unfortunately, the Italian shock manufacturer who screwed up had to file for bankruptcy and dropped out of sight for a year, until they could be financially reorganized, as BMW pinned that expensive tail on that donkey.

Unfortunately for us, Zero doesn't have those kind of resources and apparently no longer has any business relationship with EIG, the company that made the battery cells, so they are stuck with the problem and coming up with a solution on their dime.  I give them credit for doing the best (in my opinion) that that they can to get the bikes off the road.  Of course, we still need to see what the buyback offer will be and no doubt that will generate a lot of further discussion. 

[keith burton]

Problem is with the way the cells have been fitted not the cells. Zero had millions invested according to the media and surely have a good profit on their bikes prices. I am not looking to gain I just do not want to get shafted or other Zero riders. I am sorry but if you sell a motorcycle you have to sell a product that will not endanger the life of the user. All you on here leaping to Zeros defence where is the company spokesperson following these discussions and informing us of what is being done. I have not seen one comment from Zero in the media/ online forums. I think insider favourites are being nudged to put across Zeros side and put a positive spin on things. Zero sold defective goods that could quite realistically cost lives. It is your government body that made them act. Enough with the pro Zero point of view I have a bike I cannot use costing me money and they have not let us know what is happening. Issue the letters and refund offer ASAP. Five year battery warranty! 300000 miles life! Build us a new battery to fit in the battery case and I am one happy man as long as it happened quickly. You are the largest manufacturing country in the world. Look at the amazing things your country can accomplish. Zero making  out their bikes are hightec  and the future keep your eye on the quality and basis also. Please! Whinging Pom having a rant as it is a free world. Again I only ask to be kept informed, action occurs ASAP and a fair compensation for the loss of my Pristine bike with only 6000 miles on it.

[Electric Terry]

If there were 8000 2012 Zero S/DS's on the road like BMW and their shock, it might be worth designing a new holder, testing it, and fixing the 2012 battery.  But not for 218 of them.  You don't have to be able to buy a new 2018 either, just get a 2013 or 2014 and hopefully there will be some sort of "trade assist" that helps you get on another Zero vs just giving you a cash buyout.   I assume that would be highest on a 2018, but perhaps on used Zero's in their network too.

Check out this link again:

https://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2012-Zero-Motorcycles-S-ZF6-122362346

This is a NEW 2012 ZF6!!  Lol, they kept lowering the price obviously, year after year, but never fast enough so were always behind.  So all this tells be is that a brand new ZF6 does not have a fair market value of $4600.  Whether a dollar less or $2000 less I don't know, but somehow no one bought this.  And for a used ZF6?  Less but not much less.  I hope Zero can work with you guys Keith and ColoPaul to get on a 2013 or up Zero. 

[MrDude_1]

https://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2012-Zero-Motorcycles-S-ZF6-122362346

hmm.. if I could talk them down to less than the Zero trade-in program amount...

[keith burton]

Terry you keep on downplaying the value of a 2012 Zero, are you linked to the Zero company in some way. I will be realistic in my expectations but this is not a sale situation. This is a company recall of an entire years production due to a major production flaw. I do not know the final figures have been decided yet and feel you have too much of an interest in using your stature in the community to lower our expectations. There are no used Zeros for sale in the UK its a tiny market over here. There is no way I would be selling my 2012 as it is in mint condition not a mark on it, never dropped, immaculate wheels, runs perfectly. I can only have an 11kw Zero in the UK on L plates as I am a new rider on a CBT ( learners permit  sort of thing only allowed 125cc ) I will go again would you trade your dog in for a newer puppy. My 2012 is as powerful a bike as I want just had Givi panniers/ topbox, Puig  screen, 12v supply, new tyres, LED running lights and rear shock 6000 miles it would have lasted me years. We will get what we get but I resent you banging on about how little they are worth. I have copies of other 2012 for sale the day of the recall announcement $7,500 Austin Texas, $6,900 Mountain View, CA, $6,500 Ellenton, FL. The bike you are referring to is not new it has 4175 miles on it is a ZF6 not a ZF9 like mine and was on sale from Ottumwa, IA. Go and tell your buddies back at Zero that was the askig prices of Zero 2012 on the day of the announcement that they cocked up and learned they could not make a safe vehicle. If you want to keep putting down the 2012 models or have a vested interest in doing so at least get your facts right. I am not a farmer but I can smell BS.

[RickSteeb]

Note that the only reason I still have my '12 DS ZF6 is that when I bought my 2014 SR, in May of that year, the trade-in offer was $4000.  I felt its value was significantly more than that, so I kept it...  Subsequently, when I was looking to buy a 2015 FX, the (different) dealer was only offering me $2500.  Givi's and all. 

I don't think Terry is attempting to lower the perceived value of the thing!  Given the mileage he put on HIS 2012 unit, I'd personally assess the actual hazard of a battery-related "thermal event" to be *TRIVIAL* next to the risks of driving it in traffic!  (full disclosure-- I broke my leg when I dropped mine, turning on an oily street corner while going ~10MPH)

[ColoPaul]

Seems like the press was notified ~Apr 12.  Zero promised to mail offer letters to owners Apr 30.   It seems like a very long time to me, but in the corporate world it's probably not even noticed.  I think I can see the writing on the wall, but until we hear from Zero this is all conjecture.

Chris Langlois from Zero posted on this thread (Reply #4 pg1) on Apr 13.   He has provided an email for 2012 owners with questions.   Keith, I recommend you send them an email listing your concerns.   Maybe they're going to be more flexible and generous than we think.

[keith burton]

Emailed Chris this morning I will await a reply.

[Electric Terry]

Keith no I don't work for Zero.  I just have many miles on them (over 125k miles now) and have followed thousands of sales of used bikes over 6 years and can tell you what you think your bike is worth and what you could sell it to a buyer for are very different.  Look at the cycle trader ad.  2 years ago, if you tried to tell the dealer that their ZF6 wasn't worth $5000, and you offer him $2500 and he rejects the offer saying it is worth more, and you leave, who is right?  Years later he still hasn't sold it.  He can believe its worth more, but in a fair market, to be justified in your belief, you have to find a buyer who shares your belief and buys it.

All I'm saying is if you think it's worth more, what makes you think that?   Someone on the facebook group just bought a 2014 Zero last month for $6500 from a dealer and loves it.  Another person traded in a different 2014 for $6000 towards a new 2018. 

I know you have a personal motivation in trying to believe your bike is worth more than it is, and you could say I should too as I own one and will be affected by the recall as well.  I'm just trying to be realistic.

But I agree for those who use it everyday and love it and it works for them, if Zero is going to take this bike from you, they need to help get you on some other Zero that works equally as well.   I think there will be some 2013 3 bricks that should be selling in the $5k range.  For those 2012 owners who can't afford to upgrade to a 2018, it would be cool if there was a liaison to reach out to 2013 8.5 owners to offer them a 2018 upgrade deal so these 2013 3 brick bikes could be matched to those affected by the 2012 recall.

Although it might need to be 2014 bikes, as I think the 2013's got upgraded to 2015 batteries because of a problem with the first generation potting material.  So I think all 2013 8.5's are now 2013 9.4's.   The only 8.5's left are 2014's I think.

With only 218 bikes out there, it shouldn't be too hard to one by one work with each owner to find out if he uses his bike and wants to stay on a Zero, or someone who really doesn't use their bike anymore and would just take a cash buy out as it is rarely used and just taking up space in the garage and not worth much to them.  But for those who do, to work to get them on some sort of newer model year Zero.  Whether it be a new 2018 for those who can afford it, which is where I feel the biggest financial incentive will be as Zero has control over this, or helping them get on a used 2013 or 2014 bike, but Zero has no control over this as these bikes are owned by independent dealers or owners and can't control price at all and it becomes complicated.   For those who can make it work, I think upgrading to a 2018 will be the best deal.   No situation is 100% fair and simple, but I would hope the goal would be to try to make the best out of a unfortunate situation.

As Paul said, perhaps this should be viewed as driving a used Volvo worth $1000 and, at no fault of your own, someone hits you.  The insurance has no real duty to find another $1000 Volvo, all they do is give you a $1000 check.  You have to find another used car on your own.   Both the Volvo situation and this one do suck as Paul said.  The only positive on this is those who were thinking about upgrading to a new bike sometime soon anyway, and this will actually be a positive for them as I think Zero will be willing to take a reasonable loss on the 2018 models to keep their early adopter customers on a Zero bike and not leave them empty handed if they can.  But outside of the 2018 models, Zero has no control.   

[Electric Terry]

I have copies of other 2012 for sale the day of the recall announcement $7,500 Austin Texas, $6,900 Mountain View, CA, $6,500 Ellenton, FL. The bike you are referring to is not new it has 4175 miles on it is a ZF6 not a ZF9 like mine and was on sale from Ottumwa, IA.

Keith I hear you, but remember people can ask what ever they want, so an asking price really has no bearing except you know the true value is less than the asking value 99% of the time.

Good news is I think you might have more time to keep your bike before they take it from you, but I still wouldn't ride it.  The NHTSA recall does not affect bikes outside of North America I believe.  So Zero will work on these 218 bikes first would be my guess, and then bikes in Europe after, but that is just a guess.  If I was a 2012 Zero owner anywhere I would proceed with caution and follow Zero's recommendation not to ride or charge it anymore.   

edit: no isolation circuit on the 2012 BMS so no way to detect this ahead of time.  I had made a comment to look for that but it didn't start until 2013.

[centra12]

Does any of you know if former VW engineer or head of department work at Zero?
The level would be ok 

[keith burton]

Put the word out as of 13.15 GMT here in the UK my 2012 ZF9 caught alight whilst I was riding it. Sunny day here I went to shop then all hell broke loose. Please all do not be tempted to ride this was a serious fire almost immediatly. It must have to do with the first sunny day. Please I have contacted Zero can any of you do so also for me.

[Brammofan]

Put the word out as of 13.15 GMT here in the UK my 2012 ZF9 caught alight whilst I was riding it. Sunny day here I went to shop then all hell broke loose. Please all do not be tempted to ride this was a serious fire almost immediatly. It must have to do with the first sunny day. Please I have contacted Zero can any of you do so also for me.

Hi Keith - Did you happen to take any photos or videos?  Sorry this happened and hope you did not suffer any injury.