ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Scotchman on October 24, 2018, 06:26:57 PM
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Was surprised to not see a thread about this. To my thinking, this replaces the need for anything aftermarket. I know there are still those of you who want to retain the storage space and/or have more than 6kw of charge capacity (actually 7.5ish if you also use the on-board charger). But I think for the vast majority of users the dealer installed OEM fast charge option will be the best. I am excited to grab one in the spring and open up the use I can get out of my Zero. What do you think?
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Some of us are already All In with DigiNows, just waiting in the manufacturing queue 8)
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I think there's still a market for other solutions so you can pair fast charging with the extended range of the power tank.
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I know. When I ordered my 2018 S, I ordered it without the Charge Tank (preferring the additional storage space). But if more and more Chargepoint stations should open in my area I now have an option!
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Local dealer just quoted me $2800.00 for the charge tank installed, in my 2016 DSR.
Steve
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Local dealer just quoted me $2800.00 for the charge tank installed, in my 2016 DSR.
Steve
At the prevailing shop labor rates, $500 (over $2300 cost) sounds about right for the install process. There's a lot of time-consuming and difficult to access bolts depending on how your bike is configured. The electronics are also "scary" to work with for old fuddy duddy moto techs but in fact are bolt-in and not any problem and you could do the install yourself if you wanted to. Try getting a quote from AF1Racing to sell you the upgrade.
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You'll still need to dip into the aftermarket if you want the fastest charging and largest batteries available.
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To me this change is a very minor convenience to a very small amount of people, it's good but in the end it doesn't really matter.
The charge tank should just be stock. Level 2 charging is a minimum requirement on an EV in 2019.
3K is a lot of extra money to have 2 huge heavy chargers on the bike when we know what the smaller, lighter diginow can do for similar pricing.
Nothing is a bigger deterrant from EV adoption than charge times, having your default charging option be ten hours is a joke.
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... [ all stuff I kind of agree with ed: Shadow ] ...
Nothing is a bigger deterrant from EV adoption than charge times, having your default charging option be ten hours is a joke.
I put 10,000mi+ on my bike this summer with just the stock charging... what!? Yeah 150mi/day easy. Plug in, go to work 9 hrs, go home, plug in, go to sleep, repeat 6 days a week for 3 mos.
Yeah though I would not like to do the 100mi trip over Donner Pass (Does anyone hear about the Donner Party in history? Yes, that Donner Pass...) with less than 3kW total charge rate. That is about 2 hours of waiting at a charging station halfway on the trip.
For a 200mi trip I would lose my patience with less than 6kW charging... and have actually done a trip like that with 3kW rate it took too long and was annoying at best or a safety issue at worst.
For more than 6kW charging rate though in USA you don't have very many options to use public charging infrastructure. Yes it should be standard but the expectation to do better than 6kW would be unreasonable.
Zero has the ZF7.2 single long brick capacity now and should push harder to have 6.6kW charging on those models, and get rid of the PowerTank completely it is a mess. The charger is what should be removable and interchangeable, not anymore the battery pack. If you own a ZF7.2 FX and a ZF7.2 S/DS are you possibly going to ride two bikes at the same time... no. But you could own one 6.6kW charging module that changes between them and is so user-installed.
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Local dealer just quoted me $2800.00 for the charge tank installed, in my 2016 DSR.
Steve
At the prevailing shop labor rates, $500 (over $2300 cost) sounds about right for the install process. There's a lot of time-consuming and difficult to access bolts depending on how your bike is configured. The electronics are also "scary" to work with for old fuddy duddy moto techs but in fact are bolt-in and not any problem and you could do the install yourself if you wanted to. Try getting a quote from AF1Racing to sell you the upgrade.
Do we know for sure that the "new" aftermarket Charge Tank will be as difficult? I sort of got the impression that something is different now. The old Charge Tank was technically installable aftermarket, a shop in FL has a video of it, but yes it was involved. Zero adding it as an aftermarket option and it not being available until Spring 2019 made me think that perhaps they did something to simplify the install. Otherwise this is just a policy change and not any kind of new product, and it should be available now. Right?
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I remain a fan of the Power Tank. I have bought two Zeros with them so far. I would not have paid that kind of money for the "charge tank". I use my Zero for day trips and don't mind the time it takes to recharge using the on-board 1300-watt charger. I think this would be true for anyone who uses their Zero mostly for commuting and that would seem to be the most practical use for an electric motorcycle at this stage of its development.
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I have the power tank and I'm conflicted. Sometimes I'd rather have the quicker charging. (Like when I'm only working for a 3-4 hours) than battery space.
I've said it before but I really think the charge tank should be standard, but even if not I'd like it to replace the stock charger entirely.
Then you can have the charge tank up top and develop a new power tank for the belly pan where the stock charger is now. This is the best possible zero configuration in my eyes.
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There's no way a battery installed on the belly pan of a motorcycle will ever be approved for road or off-road use.
DigiNow chargers in the belly pan with a battery in the tank area is the best we're going to get until a more robust frame is available. That's what I have, and it's rather nice.
If you don't need both a Power Tank and fast charging, and your onboard charger works, the Charge Tank is fine and OEM-warranty-supported.
Neither Zero nor DigiNow are fools, and Zero's option does what it does and costs what it does because that's what they can ship as OEM. DigiNow assembles, programs, and ships what it does because it makes economical sense and they want the unofficial-yet-tacit approval of Zero by programming them in the safest way that Zero has asked.
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I'm not really sure why a battery in the belly pan would be any different than how a tesla or other EV's have their batteries in the bottom of the frame. We've even seen tesla battery packs that've been punctured from below and caused fires, but this design is still being used.
The power tank is definitely a necessity for me as my 80 mile round trip commute left me with 20% today. Without the power tank I wouldn't have made it. Hell, if there wasn't traffic on the way home I might not have made it.
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I remain a fan of the Power Tank. I have bought two Zeros with them so far. I would not have paid that kind of money for the "charge tank". I use my Zero for day trips and don't mind the time it takes to recharge using the on-board 1300-watt charger. I think this would be true for anyone who uses their Zero mostly for commuting and that would seem to be the most practical use for an electric motorcycle at this stage of its development.
I like to have the best of both worlds, so I have the Power Tank but if going on a longer trip, I put a quick charger in each saddle bag and run all three chargers from a J-plug, using two server AC cables (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G1JMFZQ/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) to connect the two quickies and the bike to a J plug.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Would love to buy a power tank rather than chargetank because of Diginow bellypan solution.
To bad no1 can give me garanty it will work with my 12,5kW battery on a 2013DS.
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Can you clarify this setup? Question is for Don Tom about the split charging cable.
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... [ all stuff I kind of agree with ed: Shadow ] ...
and get rid of the PowerTank completely it is a mess.
How is the Power Tank a mess?
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Can you clarify this setup?
Powertank + Diginow?
Diginow can put 3,3 or 6,6 or max 9,9kW/h in place of the standard 1,3kW/h charger in a custom belly pan (3 units in 1 bellypan).
So I rather choose that because:
* weight is low in the bike
* you can still have your storage in tank
* or buy the power tank for extra range.
But Powertank is not supported on a 2013/14, while it may work if you have upgraded battery (like me the 11,4 was replaced by a 12,5kW in recall)
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Sorry meant how exactly do you use the spit cord?
If running more than one charger off a single circuit, doesn’t that just blow the circuit breaker?
Or am I misunderstanding and you have an adapter that converts J1772 to three prong conventional???
Question was for Dom Tom
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Sorry meant how exactly do you use the spit cord?
If running more than one charger off a single circuit, doens’t that just blow the circuit breaker?
Or am I misunderstanding and you have an adapter that converts J1772 to three prong conventional???
Question was for Dom Tom
From the J-charger, I have the Zero J-adapter. I have it go to a "Y" server AC cable, going to another "Y" server cable of the same type. That leaves me with three outlets. One goes to the bike, the other two goes to one charger each.
The J plugs use around 240 VAC. The Zero chargers reduce the current when the voltage is higher. Same wattage at double the 120 VAC voltage, but current is half. So the 13 amps times three (39 amps) at 120 VAC becomes 6.5 amps each at 240 VAC or 19.5 amps total. That's less than 20 amps from the J-1772 charger. Usually not a problem, except on the very low current J- chargers that are shared with another vehicle that cannot even do 20 amps per side. Then I remove one Zero quick charger.
Also, even at home I can run all three chargers from the same outlet. I charge with 240 VAC from a clothes drier outlet with a long 240 VAC drier extension cord.
But even that will change. Here at this house, I am having a Tesla Wall Charger installed this very minute. It will be on its own 60 Amp circuit at 240 VAC. I have the Tesla-Tap adapter to convert Tesla to the J-plug and I will use that from now on--with both, my Tesla as well as my E-bikes. I will have the same done at my Reno home later in the week.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Ah, now I understand, thank you.
You have a flexible solution, works with J1772 and regular household, too, without adding the porky, top heavy charge tank.
What is the weight penalty? How much do those $600 Zero accessory charge gizmos weigh?
Thanks
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Ah, now I understand, thank you.
You have a flexible solution, works with J1772 and regular household, too, without adding the porky, top heavy charge tank.
What is the weight penalty? How much do those $600 Zero accessory charge gizmos weigh?
Thanks
According to Motorcycle Consumer News the DSR that they tested with a Charge Tank weighed 452 pounds. Compare that with the standard DSR that weighs 413 pounds, according to Zero's specifications on their web site, and you get a weight of 39 pounds.
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Ah, now I understand, thank you.
You have a flexible solution, works with J1772 and regular household, too, without adding the porky, top heavy charge tank.
What is the weight penalty? How much do those $600 Zero accessory charge gizmos weigh?
Thanks
They weight close to the weight limit of the saddle bags. The chargers weight ten lbs each (4.5 KG). The saddle bags are rated for 5KG (11 lbs) each. One Zero charger fits in each saddle bag with its cables.
FWIW, the travel trunk is only rated at 3KG (6.6lbs), perhaps because it's mostly behind the rear axle. IOW, not even one Zero charger should be in the travel trunk.
BTW, all my Zero bike's accessories are the stock Zero stuff. After market stuff could be a much better deal for many reasons.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Thanks, this is helpful.
Doing the math here.
2 accessory charges at 10# each= 20 lbs. They need some sort of carrying case. The zero rack plus a stock givi can carry them, about another 12-15+ lbs. The splitter cables have some weight, too. So weight penalty is similar. Your system has more flexibility, and works with power tank, but requires more space.
No free lunch, alas.
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FWIW, the travel trunk is only rated at 3KG (6.6lbs), perhaps because it's mostly behind the rear axle.
Although, unless you're Electric Terry, it is best to not put a heavy load on the back, the limit for the Zero travel trunk is the limit for the GIVI Monolock model line. The few Monokey models I checked can take 22 lbs.
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Thanks, this is helpful.
Doing the math here.
2 accessory charges at 10# each= 20 lbs. They need some sort of carrying case. The zero rack plus a stock givi can carry them, about another 12-15+ lbs. The splitter cables have some weight, too. So weight penalty is similar. Your system has more flexibility, and works with power tank, but requires more space.
No free lunch, alas.
Yep., just about all of our choices are some type of trade-off. But this way has been working well enough for me. I rarely use an e-bike for a longer trip, but I still can and have, when I want to. I normally don't have any chargers in my saddlebags.
I own six of these Zero quick-chargers, but the way I usually use them is two chargers at each of my three houses.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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FWIW, the travel trunk is only rated at 3KG (6.6lbs), perhaps because it's mostly behind the rear axle.
Although, unless you're Electric Terry, it is best to not put a heavy load on the back, the limit for the Zero travel trunk is the limit for the GIVI Monolock model line. The few Monokey models I checked can take 22 lbs.
Monokey for me. Can trade between motos, and more robust.
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Although, unless you're Electric Terry, it is best to not put a heavy load on the back, the limit for the Zero travel trunk is the limit for the GIVI Monolock model line. The few Monokey models I checked can take 22 lbs.
The limit could be more for the bike than for the travel trunk itself.
IOW, it may not be a good idea to exceed the 3KG/ 6.6 lbs weight limit even with the Monokey. Behind the rear axle is not a safe place to carry much weight. Between the axles is were the weight should be. I assume the Zero trunk itself can handle more than 22 lbs, its location is the real problem that sets the weight limit.
-Don- AUburn, CA
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FWIW, the travel trunk is only rated at 3KG (6.6lbs), perhaps because it's mostly behind the rear axle.
Although, unless you're Electric Terry, it is best to not put a heavy load on the back, the limit for the Zero travel trunk is the limit for the GIVI Monolock model line. The few Monokey models I checked can take 22 lbs.
Terry also counteracts that rearward weight with a 45lbs Husky in front. ;)
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I assume the Zero trunk itself can handle more than 22 lbs
Seriously, the 6 lb weight limit is the GIVI specification for their Monolock model line. The Zero GIVI trunk is not designed for 22 lbs. If anyone wants to carry 22 lbs, they should move up to the Monokey line or select another manufacturer.
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The Happy Trails side rack supports a much greater static and dynamic load, enough to mount chargers. I do not recommend placing chargers on a Zero tail in any other way.
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IOW, it may not be a good idea to exceed the 3KG/ 6.6 lbs weight limit even with the Monokey. Behind the rear axle is not a safe place to carry much weight. Between the axles is were the weight should be. I assume the Zero trunk itself can handle more than 22 lbs, its location is the real problem that sets the weight limit.
-Don- AUburn, CA
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Sure the ideal place for extra weight is between the axles one foot above the ground. The Zero lower trunk means only the 7.2 battery, not compatible with more than short trips. The tank trunk is super convenient, but not that large. Maybe could hold 22 lbs of gold coins, but more like 4 lbs of normal stuf. People manage to tour around the world without a problem with 40 + lbs of tail case and gear at or behind the rear axle. That's in addition to side cases, tank bag, etc. Are Zeroes such snowflakes that if pushed beyond their ideal niche of commuting and light travel that this is a problem? If so, I get that, but would be a disappointment. Other posters have proposed a more robust, longer wheelbase, acceptably heavier zero powered by three monoliths. Maybe a real tail case could work for that moto.
The electric feel is wonderful, but I can't sell my ICE yet. Sure hope I can soon.
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While placing dense mass aft of the rear axle is generally inadvisable, there is a more specific problem with the OEM tail rack and the tail subframe that I believe contributes to its load limit and can lead to catastrophic failure of the rack at speed.
The tail rack is a lever that is insufficiently braced for dynamic loads. I recommend even for its rated loads to ensure there is padding as necessary between the rack tab and the tail plastics, and additionally I recommend socket cap bolts with washers at the forward fastening position to the frame tail horns.
The OEM side racks, while better positioned, do not offer enough strength or rigidity to support chargers without the potential for bowing or warping over time.
The Happy Trails racks by comparison have sturdier construction with wider diameter steel tubing and more robust anchoring against the frame and tail. The Happy Trails rack also serves somewhat to dampen dynamic strain on the top rack, in a way that the OEM side racks are not designed to do.
I wish I had better recommendations. Zero’s frame is extremely limited in what it can support.
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(https://i.imgur.com/dclZQ7F.jpg)
Related: Zero OEM topcase rack and Monokey universal adapter plate deformed in a DSR collision event.
Next pictured is a Givi V47 case what separated from the bike in the collision.
(https://i.imgur.com/1xot35y.jpg)
(Not pictured is a corded hot air tool in its box also what was inside the case, so somewhere together about 20lbs of gear)
With respect to carrying items in the OEM toprack system I would side with the sentiment that, yes it will work (up to about 80lbs on the Monokey system before your cornering ill-effects are the least of your structural worries) but the risks are significant for any amount of weight over the manufacturer recommendation. The changes to handling are particularly adverse over about 35lbs in the topcase. These Givi cases I gather from advice and experience are known to come loose in a collision and may tumble off harmlessly "locked" or empty their contents with great enthusiasm.
I rarely hear of such experiences for side cases; are top cases any different from side cases? I think we have some data here to say that the top case is cost effective and convenient, but it is a risk you the rider should be more aware of.
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Old BMW plastic hard cases from the late 1970's, early 1980's era were noted for springing open at unanticipated times while you were riding. :o My daughter has a set of those cases on her R650LS. The solution was to wrap a free BMW dealer-supplied packing strap (used to secure their motorcycles when they were shipped in their wooden container boxes) around your entire saddlebag cases to keep the lids closed when hitting a bump. ;)
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I have the factory metal rack and Givi’s Universal fit plate. The plate is Plastic but seems like beefy plastic. I haven’t seen the Zero plate. Anyone seen both and can compare?
Thanks
Edit: I have the monokey plate.
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I have the factory metal rack and Givi’s Universal fit plate. The plate is Plastic but seems like beefy plastic. I haven’t seen the Zero plate. Anyone seen both and can compare?
Thanks
I think the metal tubular frame for the mounting plate is custom Zero. The plate for all Monolock top boxes, the Zero case included, comes with the case from GIVI.
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I was curious how they compare in terms of strength.
Edit: I'm referring to the monokey, not monolock. Sorry I wasn't clear.
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/givi-e251-universal-monokey-top-case-adapter-plate
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I was curious how they compare in terms of strength.
The plastic plate? All Monolock plates, including the one used by Zero, are the same as far as I've seen and come from GIVI. The GIVI Monolkey plate is different from the Monolock plate and is sold separately.
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I had the plastic off of my 2018 ZERO SR zf14.4 with the charge tank installed.